Friend trying to conceive (ttc)

LegacyUser

Hi, just want to get some alternative views on this situation. It's a bit long and thanks in advance if you bear with me. A friend has been trying to get pregnant with her husband for the last few years. She's had a few miscarriages and is scared that her time is running out (she's in her mid 30s). We have a large group of mutual friends and are increasing finding this friend to be really hard to cope with in group situations or individually. We all empathise with her and were devastated when she miscarried and really wish them the very best in the future as they'd be fantastic parents.

The problem is that she's become more and more negative over the last few years, you can understand the hurt and upset she's going through but she's also become very bitter towards those who are having kids. This manifests itself in criticism of them and how they behave in pregnancy or parent their child and her obvious upset when told that x or y is pregnant. She comments when someone gets engaged/is soon getting married that they'd better not get pregnant before her (tongue in cheek) but when it's so obvious how unhappy she is for people it's not very nice to deal with.

In our group and in this day and age everyone has a lot to cope with, in the last year other friends have gone through redundancy, ill health, bereavement and other negative issues as well as a lot of positive, happy events. I'm fairly direct and have gently suggested on a few occasions that she needs to count her blessings of which she has many. There's a definite resentment towards me since, nothing overt and the same goes for other friends who've made similar, genuinely well meant comments.

If she socializes with us she'll almost invariably look for someone to talk to about her gynae issues and people have started avoiding her and us. We've all rallied round and been there for her but I for one find it really disturbing to have a friend who would be unhappy if something good happened to me. Every friends babys christening/kids birthday party she goes to she gets tearful and it's gotten to the stage where most of our friends have said they'd rather have family only events in future as she's upset them at what should be postive events for them. Again, can I reiterate that she is a friend and we all care for her but it seems attention seeking to go to an event like that and want to talk about her fertility issues.

She has been on hormone treatment so this is probably messing her up emotionally as well, it's just gone on so long now and as I've said, everyone has stresses and upsets in life but every outing/meeting with her is about her problem. e.g. During a shopping trip she'll go into the maternity or newborn section and get tearful/start talking about how she wishes she was shopping in there. Her husband is not really an approachable type, he maintains that they will get pregnant and is also critical of friends who have kids and their approach to parenting.

I know it's all stemming from their pain and noone wants to cut them out, especially as there is such a large group. She was great fun before and I'm afraid that they're going to go too far some day and it's going to blow up in a huge argument. I would rather have the difficult conversation and say that she's being (in my eyes) unfair to others. I just want other peoples opinion (especially ladies who were ttc, I'd hate to make her situation worse by confronting her). Is their behaviour normal? Should her friends confront her directly about it or just back off and hope she doesn't upset other events she's invited to? Thanks for reading this far.

Lollipops23

hi OP. i don't know a whole lot about ttc, but her behaviour has crossed a line. ruining happy occasions of others is not on.

she appears to have an almost fanatical and unhealthy fixation with pregnancy/parenting. this,as you said, is most likely stemming from her pain at not being able to conceive. what were her attitudes to pregnancy before she started ttc?

she may need to look at counselling or a ttc support group?others in a similar situation who will be as eager to discuss gyne issues as she is?

you're trying your best to be supportive but she's not exactly doing herself any favours. perhaps try to approach it delicately?things can't continue the way they are.

LegacyUser

Listen, I really sympathise with you. I have a friend like this, we actually worked together. She spent 5 years ttc.

She became exactly the same, the clomid/IVF horrors. Very bitter and resentful and impossible to be with. I dont know how I endured it, everyone else could avoid her as they didn't have to work with/socialise with her.

I dutifully put up with her self pity but it got to unendurable levels. One day she had a sh1t fit when I dared to go to lunch with someone else and screamed all over the office at me. She had lost everyone else except family who were all younger than her and having babies.

I eventually couldn't take it any more and told her to feck herself after the lunch episode. It was just that every day relentlessly was about her and her battle to conceive. It was obsessional and beyond draining. I wouldnt mind but she was even jealous of a friend of ours that had a stillbirth. Thats how bad she was. I wouldn't mind but I was also childless, single and older than her at the time. But her selfishness was pathological.

I had to endure it though as we worked together. After the blowup over the lunch she started to back off a bit. I told her she had become impossible and I think she could see she was making her own life a misery.

Infertility/childlessness is hard but it does not give the person the right to bully and terrorise everyone around them and make life a complete pity party for them.

I do emphasise that not all people having difficulty concieving are like this, some keep a smile on their faces and behave with brave dignity.

I ended up telling her what she was being like, everyone was avoiding her and she had to know. Her sister and sisters in law were terrified announcing their pregnancies and she made every situation about her.

You are going to have to speak to this friend and get her to see that having kids is important but it does not give her the right to destroy every pregnancy announcement/baptism kids party for years to come. If she cant deal with this herself then she will have to get counselling.

I dont have kids but hey ho -thats life you can't lie down and die over these things.

The world does NOT revolve around her.

LegacyUser

Op it sounds like you have been very good to your friend but tbh if you've never been there yourself you'll never be able to comprehend how utterly devastating this is for her. Having said that, it is not fair for her to allow this to affect your friendships like this.

I've been there myself and in my case the only that worked was tough love. Don't gently remark. Invite her around for a homecooked meal or something and sit her down & tell her exactly what you said in your post. Don't attack her, and be sure to let her know that you understand she is going through a tough time and you want to be supportive to her but that you will not continue to accept her behaviour.

Maybe not straight away but she will thank you for it.

Also direct her to the following forum, a great bunch of girls and alot going through the same thing as her.

http://vhirefugee.myfastforum.org/forum2.php&sid=d0bd0e48d4750d72e1fc61778cfa344e

LegacyUser

Hi op here again, thanks so much for your insight and suggestions, am glad to see others have been in similar situations and to hear from someone who was in my friends shoes also. Will bring it up with her as diplomatically as possible, she's not as aggressive as the lady described by one of you, although she has gotten very defensive if someone isn't walking on eggshells to accommodate her feelings. There's always a story about how some new mum/pregnant lady/work colleague/randomer was incredibly insensitive to her situation and I definitely think she's finding fault/insult where there's none.

It's exhausting and upsetting to deal with that begrudgery and negativity all the time. She had counselling for grief after miscarriage before but the counsellor didn't seem to incorporate approaches to moving on and coping with the loss. She was a real good-time girl before and wasn't all that positive about children. We presumed that she and her husband weren't into kids and didn't plan on having a family. This is going on for 3 years now and could potentially last another 4-5, most of us have distanced ourselves from her as it is, I'd rather give her the option of keeping her friendships than let her alienate herself. She's not online outside work but will let her know there are forums that might help her through this.

Ann22

I've had 5 miscarriages sadly. I'm lucky enough to have had two children though...ten years between them. Had many people saying to me 'isn't it time you had another one?' and 'would you not go again?'...ffs! Anyway, I know what it's like to be disappointed and devastated time and time again and how it feels to see pregnant women everywhere. It is gutting. However I've never let it show..or I'd never take away someone else's joy at their pregnancies.
I mentioned on a thread before that I read a letter in a mag once from this woman who'd had years of failing pregnancies, who'd spent the younger years of her marriage crying and hankering after what would never be. Her husband passed away as she was entering the menopause..then she realised that she'd wasted years she'd had with her lovely husband. They could've travelled and enjoyed themselves more and had a love life not just geared towards a conception. That made a big impression on me. We really should appreciate what we have.

easyeason3

OP I hope I never have a 'friend' like you.

Zaph

easyeason3 wrote: »

OP I hope I never have a 'friend' like you.

easyeason3, if you wish to post here again I suggest you read the part of the charter dealing with unhelpful and off-topic posts before doing so.

easyeason3

Zaph wrote: »

easyeason3, if you wish to post here again I suggest you read the part of the charter dealing with unhelpful and off-topic posts before doing so.

I'm not going to apologise for having an opinion on this. I think the OP is being a bit harsh on what she has written so far hence my comment.

I can understand a small bit of her annoyance towards certain things but I have a big problem with the cold way it was written in.

I have two friends who are trying to concieve, so I know what is involved in it, I know how they blame themselves, I know how they think it is their fault, I know how they change their diet, I know how emotional they get & I also know how they don't want to be the girl in the corner crying because they can't do the 'natural thing' & produce a child.
I get why you gave me the warning but I still don't understand the OP.

Lollipops23

easyeason3 wrote: »

I'm not going to apologise for having an opinion on this. I think the OP is being a bit harsh on what she has written so far hence my comment.

I can understand a small bit of her annoyance towards certain things but I have a big problem with the cold way it was written in.

I have two friends who are trying to concieve, so I know what is involved in it, I know how they blame themselves, I know how they think it is their fault, I know how they change their diet, I know how emotional they get & I also know how they don't want to be the girl in the corner crying because they can't do the 'natural thing' & produce a child.
I get why you gave me the warning but I still don't understand the OP.

what about OPs friend who is making everyone around her miserable?how can you justify making people scared to annouce pregnancies or ruining happy occasions because she's so obsessed?don't get me wrong, i really feel for her, i can only imagine how horrible it is for her and the emotional rollercoaster she is on. But, like anything else in life, she can't go on taking it out on her friends. Imagine in 2 years time she is lucky enough to have a baby?she'll get no visitors to share in her joy as she'll have no friends left.

seamus

easyeason3 wrote: »

I have two friends who are trying to concieve, so I know what is involved in it, I know how they blame themselves, I know how they think it is their fault, I know how they change their diet, I know how emotional they get & I also know how they don't want to be the girl in the corner crying because they can't do the 'natural thing' & produce a child.

Everybody's life has its ****tiness. Nobody has any right to project their ****ty life out into someone else's. Yes, it's fine to talk about it now and again and look for sympathy but when your behaviour is negatively affecting your relationship with your friends, the problem is with you and not with your friends.

OP, I would say that you should take your friend aside, alone, and suggest to her that she goes to a professional to talk about everything. She needs to come to terms with the possibility that it may never happen for her. What then? Is she going to continue resenting everyone who has children? The patience of your friends is not an unlimited resource and should never be taken for granted.

LegacyUser

Hi OP,

I'm trying to tcc at the moment, mid thirties. Been trying for a few years. For me the pain has lessened as time has gone on. A few years back I'd make excuses to avoid friends with babies though I never let on to anyone. Now it doesn't seem to hurt me as much. Perhaps I didn't have such good friends that I thought I could come clean to them about how I'm really feeling. But as I've said, I've been through so much pain over it (and still have bad days) that it doesn't hurt as much.
Maybe just have a supportive chat with your friend. Tell her that if/when she has a baby people would be just as happy/happier for her. Please thread lightly. I know you're sympathetic but infertility is a really deep sadness because it goes against instinct in a way that redundancies and the ordinary ups and downs of life don't. But as I said she probably won't go on feeling the same level of pain in the future, so don't leave her with a bitter memory of you.

I have one friend who has a great way of dealing with me. She's forever on about 'kids - who'd want them!!' I know exactly what she's doing (how she's trying to support me) but I never let on. ;-)

LegacyUser

Hi again. Thanks for your replies, easyeason3 I'm not going to apologise for my opinion either and I'm lost as to how you took my writing approach as cold, I do appreciate your perspective and like you have been there with this friend and others hoping to get and hold onto a pregnancy. If it was just that she was depressed about it I'd be there completely. I know she'd never wish anything bad on any of her friends but it's upsetting that she isn't wishing us well either.

Friends who haven't met someone they want to settle down with are naturally finding her experiences frightening as they see so clearly what they might go through are upset by it (upset for her as well as for what might be ahead for them) and by the fact that they know that if they don't have problems she'll be personally upset that someone else didn't have it as tough as she did.

Unreg and Ann22 thanks for your replies, this girl is on a one track mind and any mention of kiddies/counting her blessings upsets her deeply. I hope you are successful in ttc unreg. Seamas, I'd be of your viewpoint, there's only so much negativity you can project onto people before you drive them away. Thanks all, more food for thought.

LegacyUser

I know you're sympathetic but infertility is a really deep sadness because it goes against instinct in a way that redundancies and the ordinary ups and downs of life don't.

I disagree. We are creatures of free will and we are capable of programming our minds to accept things we dont like and become positive about them. The poster that mentioned about the woman who became obsessed and neglected her marriage and subsequently lost her husband illustrates what I mean.

You can allow it to take over you or you can feel it and hurt BUT decide this is not going to destroy me. I might not have a child BUT I still have a life, its hard but whats the alternative? Destroy your whole life and play the victim?

I can not conceive and my chance has passed, yes it is sad and heartbreaking and draining but at no time can I say did I behave in a jealous, bitter, aggressive or Diva like way twords others who were lucky enough to have children. I made a decision not to and stuck to it.

As well as instinct we have higher minds, we need to employ these at times of soul destroying dissappointment.

Yes the girl needs to vent off her pain and anguish somewhere harmless like a message board BUT no its NOT acceptable to be a malevolant spectre in the background, filled with hate, jealousy, resentment to others who do have children.

Its wrong, its not their faults we cant have kids.....its wrong to punish them.
When it gets to that babyZilla level the woman needs counselling.

LegacyUser

Unregistered wrote: »

I disagree. We are creatures of free will and we are capable of programming our minds to accept things we dont like and become positive about them. The poster that mentioned about the woman who became obsessed and neglected her marriage and subsequently lost her husband illustrates what I mean.

You can allow it to take over you or you can feel it and hurt BUT decide this is not going to destroy me. I might not have a child BUT I still have a life, its hard but whats the alternative? Destroy your whole life and play the victim?

I can not conceive and my chance has passed, yes it is sad and heartbreaking and draining but at no time can I say did I behave in a jealous, bitter, aggressive or Diva like way twords others who were lucky enough to have children. I made a decision not to and stuck to it.

As well as instinct we have higher minds, we need to employ these at times of soul destroying dissappointment.

Yes the girl needs to vent off her pain and anguish somewhere harmless like a message board BUT no its NOT acceptable to be a malevolant spectre in the background, filled with hate, jealousy, resentment to others who do have children.

Its wrong, its not their faults we cant have kids.....its wrong to punish them.
When it gets to that babyZilla level the woman needs counselling.

I'm the unreg you just replied to. And I disagree with you.

I'd rather loose ten jobs if it meant having one baby, in fact I'd probably rather loose my house, or even a family member (well a distant one), or maybe even my right eye (oooh I probably shouldn't write that!! only joking, well sort of...)

Trust me, I'm dealing with infertility, trust me I believe the OPs friends reactions are insensitive, particularly as the OP said, to those who haven't even had the opportunity to ttc.

All I'm saying is that as you'll see from my post, over time, the girl's pain will lessen, as yours has, and mine is. But to me its not the same pain as ordinary ups and downs, never will be. I'm not saying infertile people have some kind of patent out on sadness, we all have our issues.

I'm only at the start of accepting that I may never give birth or teach my own child or have grand kids to visit when I'm old, and neither will my husband, if we survive infertility. Believe me I'm not going to let it ruin my life. But so far infertility (loss of dreams/hope) has caused me greater pain and made getting up in the morning and carrying on a greater struggle than anything else I've encountered and I've had my fair share of ups and downs in other areas. But as I said, when you start to accept the pain lessens, I'm sure the OPs friend will get there eventually, all I said was to handle with care til she does.

LegacyUser

OP - maybe you don't mean to, but I think you sound unsympathetic towards a friend of yours who is obviously going through a terrible time. In fact, you sound like you think that she should just "snap out of it" because she has become such a downer and is spoiling social events for you and the rest of your circle.

As someone who is infertile, telling me to count my blessings is about as useful as telling someone who has just had his legs amputated that at least he still has the use of his arms. The grief of infertility is something that takes years to come to terms with and will never entirely leave.

My partner and I are the kind of people who put a brave face on things, and we faithfully turned up to christenings and babies' birthdays with big smiles on our faces and I'd say nobody suspected how heartbreaking it was for us. In retrospect, I think that that was a huge mistake because it minimised our loss to the people that knew us, and it added to the perception that infertility is something that you can just bounce back from instead of something that dismantles your life and your perception of your future.

Think of it this way - your friend is being honest. And she has enough trust in you and your circle of friends to show how much this is devastating her. You are repaying that trust by complaining about what a drag she is. Everybody needs good friends, and good friends are the people that stick by you through the very bad times - even when it seems a bit tedious to hear the same story again and again. I bet you hope that that, when the time comes that you suffer one of life's major setbacks, they'll all be there for you. Why can't you be that person for your friend right now when she needs you, instead of focusing on what a downer her company is?

Lollipops23

Unregistered wrote: »

Why can't you be that person for your friend right now when she needs you, instead of focusing on what a downer her company is?

because all she does is lament her hardships and ruins what should be happy occasions. look, infertility is horrific and i disagree with another poster saying it does not go against the most basic of instincts'; it does. but why should her entire life be ruined by it??she's not dying, she's not sick, so yeah she should count those blessings. Making her friends scared to talk to her is not on.
I stand by my earlier point that she has an unhealthy and obsessive fixation on baby making.

LegacyUser

I'm not saying infertile people have some kind of patent out on sadness, we all have our issues.

Ah but it IS what your saying. You describe your pain and how all encompassing it was....which is such a common thing you see with people affected by infertility.....utter exceptionality.....

My suffering is the BIGGEST, most PAINFUL and everyone else must prostrate themselves at the alter of my woe.

Actually no, everyone else does not have to do that. The double standard you often see in which the infertile person is dismissive of other peoples 'issues' and can be horribly insensitive themselves is what I have noticed.

As I said one of the worst things I saw was the then infertile girl throwing a jealous wobbly when some colleagues sympathised with another colleague who had to give birth to her stillborn baby. Infertile girls rationale was 'WELL AT LEAST SHE CAN HAVE A BABY ....what about poor me....bla bla bla....."

Its insufferable.

LegacyUser

Unregistered wrote: »

OP - maybe you don't mean to, but I think you sound unsympathetic towards a friend of yours who is obviously going through a terrible time. In fact, you sound like you think that she should just "snap out of it" because she has become such a downer and is spoiling social events for you and the rest of your circle.

I'm really sorry that you've had problems unreg and I definitely didn't mean to come across as you've stated above. It's the begrudgery towards those who aren't having fertility problems that's the biggest issue for me and what is to me, inappropriate venting of her sadness and grief. Her stories are not tedious to us and in the correct setting we're always there for her to vent.

Congratulations you're pregnant is a phrase that precedes does x know yet and the hope that she wont upset the person in question when she hears. There have been some pretty awful responses to the news and some of our partners are wondering why we're still talking to her, we're really trying to be sympathetic and understanding. Personally if it tore me apart so much inside to go to a christening/kids birthday party I'd make my excuses and decline graciously or go to the ceremony and skip the party.

I bet you hope that that, when the time comes that you suffer one of life's major setbacks, they'll all be there for you. Why can't you be that person for your friend right now when she needs you, instead of focusing on what a downer her company is?

Some of us have suffered major setbacks as I've said - bereavement (including one very young family member dying in a tragic manner), miscarriage, family and monetary upsets and this friend does not see that these "count" as much as her grief nor deserving of as much sympathy. That is what is troubling me and making me wonder if she needs someone who cares for her and doesn't want to abandon her to have a word. Thanks for your pov and once again I'm sorry that you and your husband have encountered such problems, you wouldn't wish it on your worst enemy.

LegacyUser

Unregistered wrote: »

OP - maybe you don't mean to, but I think you sound unsympathetic towards a friend of yours who is obviously going through a terrible time. In fact, you sound like you think that she should just "snap out of it" because she has become such a downer and is spoiling social events for you and the rest of your circle.

As someone who is infertile, telling me to count my blessings is about as useful as telling someone who has just had his legs amputated that at least he still has the use of his arms. The grief of infertility is something that takes years to come to terms with and will never entirely leave.

My partner and I are the kind of people who put a brave face on things, and we faithfully turned up to christenings and babies' birthdays with big smiles on our faces and I'd say nobody suspected how heartbreaking it was for us. In retrospect, I think that that was a huge mistake because it minimised our loss to the people that knew us, and it added to the perception that infertility is something that you can just bounce back from instead of something that dismantles your life and your perception of your future.

Think of it this way - your friend is being honest. And she has enough trust in you and your circle of friends to show how much this is devastating her. You are repaying that trust by complaining about what a drag she is. Everybody needs good friends, and good friends are the people that stick by you through the very bad times - even when it seems a bit tedious to hear the same story again and again. I bet you hope that that, when the time comes that you suffer one of life's major setbacks, they'll all be there for you. Why can't you be that person for your friend right now when she needs you, instead of focusing on what a downer her company is?

Its a case of degree though.

She has gone beyond showing her devastation, she has started to poison every event and make it about herself. She has moved beyond upset and anguish and into being impossible to be around.

It sounds to me that you and your partner got it right, striking the balance between being happy for other people when appropriate but also awknowledging your pain.

But thats not whats going on here. The girl has become obsessed and is behaving in a very damaging way to herself (alienating everone despite their best patience) and others.

LegacyUser

Unregistered wrote: »

Ah but it IS what your saying. You describe your pain and how all encompassing it was....which is such a common thing you see with people affected by infertility.....utter exceptionality.....

My suffering is the BIGGEST, most PAINFUL and everyone else must prostrate themselves at the alter of my woe.

Actually no, everyone else does not have to do that. The double standard you often see in which the infertile person is dismissive of other peoples 'issues' and can be horribly insensitive themselves is what I have noticed.

As I said one of the worst things I saw was the then infertile girl throwing a jealous wobbly when some colleagues sympathised with another colleague who had to give birth to her stillborn baby. Infertile girls rationale was 'WELL AT LEAST SHE CAN HAVE A BABY ....what about poor me....bla bla bla....."

Its insufferable.

Really? Bit of a sweeping generalisation, no? This is something you've noticed with many infertile people?

I can't say I've noticed it. In fact I've one childless friend who recently mentioned (in a childless to childless moan, which us non-sproggers do all the time aparantly!) thats she's regularly buying presents for seven children (friends's) - birthdays and xmas's, thats 14 trips to the shops for other people's kids a year. She even babysits and I've never heard her talk resently about the fact that others have kids, just that sometimes they seem to forget she doesn't, like when her marriage broke up partly as a result of childlessness and some people who should know better were quick to say 'well at least you don't have kids'!!! I got told the same when I lost a job, by people with kids who didn't seem to realise that to a childless person a job can mean alot more than just a way to pay the bills (as it can for anyone, but its not like I have the upside of 'oh well, more time with the kids')

Most people I know, including me and my hubbie and some other posters here face childlessness bravely and often silently, we have to.

I'm not capable of measuring other people's pain or saying that a fertile person does or doesn't suffer more from a still birth than someone who never even gets pregnant or suffers multiply miscarriages does. I'm sure it depends alot on the person and its not a competition.
But no, it DOESN'T equate with redundancies or ordinary ups and downs or even the death of an older person, not for me anyway and that was my point. For some people, when you discover you are infertile, it tears down alot of expectations and yes, recreation is a basic human instinct, we're designed that way, physically and psychologically. You have to learn to build a new identity that incorporates childlessness. Its not the same as financial worries or breaking up with a boyfriend...

Perhaps you took what your friend said about the still birth out of context. Surely she didn't mean it that way you think she did? Maybe she was trying to say that at least the other woman has a chance to mourn for what she's never had/lost while the ttc woman will never have an avenue to mourn what she hasn't had but still has the sadness? Maybe if you could have expressed herself better you might not have judged her. Very inappropriate timing though.

There is no excuse for insensitive behaviour from either the childless or sproggers. But I don't think being childless makes someone more likely to be an asshole!!!




OP, a quiet chat with your mate will probably sort this out.

*Honey*

It's such a tough one, I see both sides of the situation.

I've had two miscarriages - they were totally and utterly the most devastating episodes in my life to date (and believe me, I've been through some sh1t in the past). After the first one, all I could think was babies, getting pregnant, being pregnant, doing whatever it took to get back to where I had been, back to being happy. When I lost the second one, I thought I was cursed.

I had many many black moments, times that nobody but my husband knows about. It's so hard to talk about it, people (in general) don't know what it say and don't really want to talk about it - it's such a tough and lonely place. OP, your friend sounds very lost to me - very very lost and alone. She is bitter because she doesn't have the one thing she probably wants most in the world - she did have it and then lost it .... there's such a devastation behind it, I can't really put it in words (suffice it to say that I'm tearing up writing this). The pain is never far from the surface and she sounds like she's a living ball of pain.

I see it from your side too though - it is draining to be around someone who only exudes negativity, it feels like the life is being sucked from you at times. Having come from some very very black times, all I can say is she is probably drowning right now and I'm sure doesn't want to be like this and probably cannot find a way out of the grief. It's so hard... I would suggest grief counselling for her but it's a touchy subject (and, in a way, she needs to want to get it, in order for it to work). The reality is, getting pregnant again will not be the answer to her dreams because you do nothing but worry yourself sick anyway.

Another poster mentioned the story of woman who relentlessly pursued having a family only for her husband to die quite young (early retirement age I think?). My husband and I realised that we were so so tired of always looking to the future, waiting to see what happens, living life in 2 week chunks, charting calendars and checking your bits all the time to see what your cycle is like - not to mention the fears over losing another one. It can consume you. It's so hard to know how it feels for someone who's not been there and I appreciate that may sound bad and I don't mean it to. My husband and I just wanted to be happy, to live our lives again, to live now and stop always looking over our shoulders. So we just stopped but it took us about 2.5 years of all this to get to that point of acceptance - and it took work on both our parts, so much talking and so many tears.

I would urge you to try and be there for your friend, I know she's probably doing your nut in right now and it's hard to understand but I just think she sounds like she's crying out for help but doesn't know how to get it, how to verbalise it even (and I think she does that in her bitterness), she's a ball of pain at the moment. It will get better but it will take time. In the meantime, try with her ... miscarriage and the fallout of it is a very lonely experience and it's certainly the time when I found out who my real friends were (very few as it happened, unfortunately).

It's such a tough situation for all invovled - it often speaks to the very heart of a person... we as women are brought up believing we can just drop sprogs left right and centre; to find out that you can't, that you can't do "what comes naturally" for other women, is really hard to come to terms with. Added to that, the loss of a child ... and the loss of the dreams and wishes for that child, it's just such a difficult time.

Please try and bear with her as much as you can... I know it's tough but she sounds to me like she needs friends more now than ever.

Unreg who posted the VHIrefugee thread... wonder if I know who you are, I used to spend far too much time on there!

I hope I've not gone on too much, sorry for writing a novel.

LegacyUser

Why does the whole ttc process involve giving birth, if the end result is a child to love and rear why isn't the adoption process even mentioned in this thread?

to hold and love a child and rear it are what its all about.

Maybe it's me, and the way I think, but too much emphasis is put on the whole giving birth to your own.... and maybe this is offline, but if I felt the need to love a child and wanted one so much I would go forward with adoption if I felt that all options personally were exhausted?

LegacyUser

I find it incredible posters are trying to excuse the OP's friend's behaviour.

Understanding the reason for something and condoning or excusing it are too very different things. Yes the friend is suffering and needs her friends' support. It's also clear that she is getting that. What's no excusable is her behaviour and the effect it's having on others, not matter what difficulties, grief or hardship she is suffering.

To then suggest that the OP is a bad friend despite being there for her, supporting her and letting her vent is just ridiculous.

OP, I would suggest a small group of you sit her down and talk to her. Be careful to not criticise her directly, but start out with the statement that you are concerned about her. Highlight the "bad" behaviour, not as criticism but as indicators of an issue you are concerned about, i.e. her well being, pointing out that she is not the kind of person who would normally react or act like that. She will react badly to all this, probably call you all uncaring bitches and so on, but you must all remain calm, supportive and concerned - put all the focus on her, how her actions are not nice etc rather than how badly they make you all feel. It's shirking round the issue slightly and effectively babying here, but the idea is that you highlight her poor behaviour without coming across like you don't like or support her. Just my 2 cents....

LegacyUser

Unregistered wrote: »

Why does the whole ttc process involve giving birth, if the end result is a child to love and rear why isn't the adoption process even mentioned in this thread?

to hold and love a child and rear it are what its all about.

Maybe it's me, and the way I think, but too much emphasis is put on the whole giving birth to your own.... and maybe this is offline, but if I felt the need to love a child and wanted one so much I would go forward with adoption if I felt that all options personally were exhausted?

People want to have their own kids.

Otherwise why wouldn't more people who can have their own adopt?

Its also hard to judge when all options are exhausted. After 5yrs? 10 yrs? a certain age? ttc is full of uncertainty.

LegacyUser

I find it interesting that those who have experienced infertility are those who are standing up for the OP's friend. Those who haven't, aren't. Maybe it's a case of "walk a mile in my shoes". I wonder too whether the lack of sympathy is a reflection of the age (and gender?) profile of boards themselves? Certainly in my 20's I never expected to be going through this - and it was never something that I thought about when other people mentioned it.

Infertility is a silent sorrow - and there is a genuine taboo about talking about it. Those who suffer from it are encouraged to talk about their lie-ins and holidays that they can have because they are childless, instead of talking about the endless grief that infertility brings.

Your friend is breaking the taboo. And she is genuinely going through a terrible time. If you are all out of sympathy and genuinely tired of her outbursts during occasions then you'll have to tell her, as gently as you can. She may choose to distance herself from the rest of you - and given that you're all getting a bit sick of her, then maybe that's a good thing. It sounds like your patience is wearing thin and by doing this it would avoid an impatient outburst instead of saying something thoughtful.

I'm not going to pass judgement. However, I will say that being infertile is very lonely, and you need all the friends that you can get. Before you say anything, weigh up carefully what her friendship means to you. If it doesn't really bother you to lose it, then maybe it's not worth holding on to - for you or for her.

calahans

Unregistered wrote: »

I find it interesting that those who have experienced infertility are those who are standing up for the OP's friend. Those who haven't, aren't. Maybe it's a case of "walk a mile in my shoes". I wonder too whether the lack of sympathy is a reflection of the age (and gender?) profile of boards themselves? Certainly in my 20's I never expected to be going through this - and it was never something that I thought about when other people mentioned it.

Had noticed this too!

You need to be gentle with this person. To procreate is the basic function of all life and when you have problems with this, or find that its impossible, it shakes your world to its roots. It is not the same as unemployment or heartbreak - it exists on a different level.

LegacyUser

Unregistered wrote: »

Why does the whole ttc process involve giving birth, if the end result is a child to love and rear why isn't the adoption process even mentioned in this thread?

to hold and love a child and rear it are what its all about.

Maybe it's me, and the way I think, but too much emphasis is put on the whole giving birth to your own.... and maybe this is offline, but if I felt the need to love a child and wanted one so much I would go forward with adoption if I felt that all options personally were exhausted?

Yes adoption can bring a lot of joy to many. Difficult in this country as so many babies aren't given up..and if you're past a certain age you aren't considered. Some who have money go abroad.
A lot of people though would love a child to be a little part of them and their partner. As well as that it's one thing being told there's no way you can ever conceive and not knowing if it'll ever happen. If you know there's no chance, you can move forward to adoption but if you don't know if it's going to happen any time soon, it's incredibly difficult to know what to do.

iguana

*Honey* wrote: »

Having come from some very very black times, all I can say is she is probably drowning right now and I'm sure doesn't want to be like this and probably cannot find a way out of the grief.

Honey's post is a fantastic one but this point is worth highlighting. Your friend probably hates herself for the way she is behaving and the effect this is having on her life. She would never have chosen to feel how she does. Since my miscarriage I find it extremely hard to be around pregnant women, especially those who got pregnant by accident. A friend of mine announced her pregnancy last month and I am not even remotely happy for her. I despise myself for feeling that way, and I wish it was otherwise, but I can honestly say I am not even the tiniest bit pleased for her.

Nobody knows I feel this way. The vast majority of our friends don't know about the miscarriage and I'm a decent actor so I can fake being happy for those expecting or those with newborns. But it's all fake, I go home and I cry and cry. And worst of all I hate myself for feeling the way I do. As far as I know I have no fertility problems as I haven't tried properly to get pregnant since it happened, but I can't imagine what I'd be like if I ever lose another pregnancy or if I try for years without ever getting pregnant again. I wouldn't have the strength to fake being happy for people because as it is, it feels like it takes everything I've got.

LegacyUser

Adoption is not always the answer. You need to be very sure that that is what you want, and not just a consoloation prize for not being able to conceive yourself. If you are infertile, you need to have totally come to terms with and have accepted this before you can move on to adoption.

Furthermore the whole process to do with adoption is incredibly fraught and upsetting. There are endless delays waiting for a preparation course, waiting for a social worker and then waiting for a referral. Not to mention the stress of opening up every aspect of your life for assessment (I'm not questioning this by the way - this part is totally necessary).

Finally, at the end, you should be prepared for disappointment. We're five years waiting for an adoption now, only to be told that our Government has let the agreement with the country that we wanted to adopt from, lapse. We have no idea whether we're going to be able to adopt from there or not.

If your friend is thinking of adoption, then she needs to be in a much steadier frame of mind than she appears to be in at present. It's not by any means an easier alternative to having your "own" baby and - as we've just found out - the process is just as heartbreaking as any failed infertility treatment.

iguana

Unregistered wrote: »

Adoption is not always the answer. You need to be very sure that that is what you want, and not just a consoloation prize for not being able to conceive yourself. If you are infertile, you need to have totally come to terms with and have accepted this before you can move on to adoption.

On top of that adoption can be very, very expensive. I know a number of people who have adopted from Russia and eastern Europe and it cost them about €50,000 in total for 2 adoptions.

Scoobydoobydoo

OP,
I don't think you're a bad friend, I think your intentions are good, but I think it's just impossible for anyone to understand what infertility is like if you haven't experienced it. Sure, it's not your fault, how could you know?

I'm also in my mid thirties I've been ttc for almost six years, and I understand your friend's feelings, but luckily I've managed to handle it a little better than your friend. Everyone's different, and it's easy for an observer to say "I know it's hard but everyone has their ups and downs". I've had ups and downs, but there's just nothing that can compare with this. The feelings (and hormones) are so powerful, I have days when Im a total basket case, and just want to scream and throw stuff! I have irrational, jealous and bitter thoughts, which I must, of course keep to myself - which in itself can be hard - but you know that nobody would understand, or want to hear it. You're on your own.

I once did have a sort of public display of upset, at a christening. I was at the meal afterwards and when my husband held the baby, my emotions got the better of me and I went to the bathroom and bawled my eyes out. I was there for so long that people knew there was something up and I had to make excuses to leave, but it was clear I'd been crying. I felt terrible, it was anything but attention seeking - I felt trapped there, I was mortified, but I'm using it as an example of how powerful this feeling is, and sometimes it can get out of control. One minute I was fine, the next I was out of control with the crying. Very embarrassing!

I am happy for friends and family etc when they have babies, but at the same time, when I hear the good news, it's like a knife in the stomach and I cannot help how low it makes me feel each time. It's hard to explain that while I don't begrudge others their families, it serves as a reminder all the time of the injustice of it all, maybe I've been trying harder, longer, suffering in my efforts, feeling a failure as a woman, letting my husband down. The negative feelings are many and overall it's indescribable, and at times I find it hard not to become a complete basket case!

I've had so many irrational thoughts - even when I read your post, you said your friend has miscarried - while I wouldn't wish a miscarriage on anyone, from my position the first thing I think is, at least she can get pregnant! That sounds horrible that I would think that, but I'm so long on this rollercoaster, that to be pregnant at all is like the holy grail. It's utter desperation that drives your thinking at times.

I love my neices and nephews, and my friends kids are cute, but there are days I can't face being around them.
Even if you've got the best friends and family in the world, infertility is incredibly lonely, and you know it's impossible for people to understand. My sister, who has had some trouble ttc also, has tried to advise me, and is very understanding, but I feel she can't really understand me properly, because her problem was easily resolved and she got pregnant quickly.

Some people who aren't suffering infertility, may well read this and be horrified at the thoughts that go through the mind of someone like me, and that's why I don't voice them - but then that's not healthy either, so you can't win! I don't think I've offended anyone, but I may have skipped a few Christenings instead.

My advice for you would be to get your other girlfriends together, and have a chat with her together, kind of an intervention I suppose.
Firstly, from your post, it seems to me that you don't understand what she's going through, which is ok, you can't be expected to if you haven't been there, but when she's acting unreasonably, you should all remember that.
I'd then tell her that you accept that she's in an awful situation, and that you know you don't understand but you want to help her.
Tell her, gently, how it looks in social situations. Infertility can take over your life so that you're not aware of other people's perceptions.
Tell her you know how difficult Christenings etc. are for her and understand if she'd rather not be there because she can't cope. I know I hate them.
Tell her it's probably not healthy for her to go into maternity depts in shops, as she's only torturing her you'd self.
Maybe she could take up a hobby, maybery one of you could do that with her. I took one up about two years ago, to distract my mind, and it's been very helpful in doing so!
I've been to therapy, and don't find it helpful because I'm thinking that the person I'm talking to doesn't understand! But it may help your friend.
She could probably do with meeting with others who do know what she's going through, there are infertility groups out there. This, I think would be useful for her to vent her feelings with people who are going through the same thing, and it would probably therefore lighten the burden on your group of friends. You could look this up on the net and tell her about it.
Maybe you and your other friends could go off for a weekend or something, and sort of set a relaxing scene, where you'd have a good opportunity to talk to her.

I don't know about attention seeking, but of course there is a certain amount of self pity involved in this, which is very natural. When you're surrounded by pregnant women, babies, fertile people who take it all for granted and you know it'll probably never happen to you, I think you have the right to feel sorry for yourself! It's another thing when it takes over your life, and you don't have the right to make people miserable.

I don't think you understand how it feels for your friend, but I think you care and want to be a good friend to this girl who's in a sad and unhealthy situation.
Have a chat with your other friends and see if you can do something together.

Everyone is so different, and then you throw explosive hormones into the mix, but I can only give you my opinion on my experience and what I'd want or need.

I wish you and your friends luck, and think your hearts are in the right place.

*Honey*

Unregistered wrote: »

Why does the whole ttc process involve giving birth, if the end result is a child to love and rear why isn't the adoption process even mentioned in this thread?

to hold and love a child and rear it are what its all about.

Maybe it's me, and the way I think, but too much emphasis is put on the whole giving birth to your own.... and maybe this is offline, but if I felt the need to love a child and wanted one so much I would go forward with adoption if I felt that all options personally were exhausted?

Not everyone thinks of adoption like this - for some it's utterly integral to them that it's their biological child. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it just is.

And for some, all options are exhausted long before you get to adoption - for me, I'm just too old. Simple as that, probably not too old to have my own (if I could) but definitely too old in adoption terms. So that choice was already removed from me I'm afraid.

I wholeheartedly support adoption and I admire anyone who goes through that whole process because, from what I know of it, it's a damn tough thing to go through.

*Honey*

Scoobydoobydoo wrote: »

I once did have a sort of public display of upset, at a christening. I was at the meal afterwards and when my husband held the baby, my emotions got the better of me and I went to the bathroom and bawled my eyes out. I was there for so long that people knew there was something up and I had to make excuses to leave, but it was clear I'd been crying. I felt terrible, it was anything but attention seeking - I felt trapped there, I was mortified, but I'm using it as an example of how powerful this feeling is, and sometimes it can get out of control. One minute I was fine, the next I was out of control with the crying. Very embarrassing!

Great post and great advice. Your story reminded me so much of the time I was in Dunnes in Cornelscourt buying a little pink dress for a friend who'd just had a baby girl - she announced her pregnancy when she was 12 weeks, at that stage we were 5 weeks only and not telling anyone but told them. We went on to lose our baby and hers was fine .. it was very tough to be honest. The day we bought the dress was probably the toughest.. she texted to say it was a little girl and I went and picked the dress and standing in the queue, the tears were pouring down my face .. I thought I was going to throw up and collapse all at the same time. The thing is I wanted a little girl so much, I'd have killed for it ... so this was sort of the straw that broke the camel's back. My hubby took the dress, gave me a hug and the car keys and told me to go and relax and he'd take care of it. So if you ever saw a snot ridden tear monster in Dunnes one day in May, that'd be me.

LegacyUser

Hi again, wow, quite a lot to take in, will mull it over. Have to say there's an ingrained aversion to the 'you can't understand the pain' thing as I detest the attitude a lot of parents have that you've never loved/been tired/mattered/existed etc until you've had a child but I take your points on board. I may print this off and have a chat with the girls about it and figure out how to tell her how concerned we are. I just can't understand how anybody would think, let alone say, that, e.g. a person who has lost a family member to suicide doesn't know what pain is unless they've miscarried. If we didn't know her so long we'd be completely freaked out and think she was awful and she's saying these things to people who don't know her very well. Thanks again and apologies if I've offended anybody with my posts, I really wouldn't hurt this girl for the world, she's clearly so invested in this she's lost perspective and feels desperately distraught, hopefully it'll work out for them.

LegacyUser

*Honey* wrote: »

Not everyone thinks of adoption like this - for some it's utterly integral to them that it's their biological child. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it just is.

And for some, all options are exhausted long before you get to adoption - for me, I'm just too old. Simple as that, probably not too old to have my own (if I could) but definitely too old in adoption terms. So that choice was already removed from me I'm afraid.

I wholeheartedly support adoption and I admire anyone who goes through that whole process because, from what I know of it, it's a damn tough thing to go through.

Hi Honey,

thanks for answering. I don't know a lot about the adoption process admittedly.

Just as a matter of interest what is the age cut off point?

Like everyone else I imagine that having "your own" is the first want as such, but to me a tangible process of sorts would be better than relying on biologicial "might never happens" where even doctors are surprised on occasion.

Each I suppose is undertermined in its own way.

I used to work with a woman who applied for adoption after years and years of trying. They suceeded in the apotion I heard after i left and she became pregnant the year they got the child. After about 10+ years of fertility treatments, food supplements, measuring this and that and total turmoil.

It's so nice to hear those things.

I've kind of strayed away from the OP but I wonder if this would be an option for her to talk to her friend about even?

LegacyUser

Friend ttc wrote: »

Have to say there's an ingrained aversion to the 'you can't understand the pain' thing as I detest the attitude a lot of parents have that you've never loved/been tired/mattered/existed etc until you've had a child ...

..I just can't understand how anybody would think, let alone say, that, e.g. a person who has lost a family member to suicide doesn't know what pain is unless they've miscarried.

Or people who never met a partner to have one, want one as much, and will never find out whether they could have had a baby or not, and now well its too late.

There are plenty, I've known some personally and for me, it much more sad, those are the ones that never cry at Christenings and pretend they never wanted kids.

LegacyUser

Unregistered wrote: »

Or people who never met a partner to have one, want one as much, and will never find out whether they could have had a baby or not, and now well its too late.

There are plenty, I've known some personally and for me, it much more sad, those are the ones that never cry at Christenings and pretend they never wanted kids.

+1.

You're dead right.

For all the hassle and pain of ttc I'm still glad I've had the opportunity. As you say, alot of women never do, and just have to suck it up.

Thnks for the reminder not to whinge to my single mates about it. The married-with-kids ('you don't know the first thing about anything til you've had kids yadda yadda') brigade are fair game however ;-)

LegacyUser

OP, did you ever talk to her? And what happened????