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Friend trying to conceive (ttc)

  • 11-05-2009 12:41PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,006 ✭✭✭✭


    Hi, just want to get some alternative views on this situation. It's a bit long and thanks in advance if you bear with me. A friend has been trying to get pregnant with her husband for the last few years. She's had a few miscarriages and is scared that her time is running out (she's in her mid 30s). We have a large group of mutual friends and are increasing finding this friend to be really hard to cope with in group situations or individually. We all empathise with her and were devastated when she miscarried and really wish them the very best in the future as they'd be fantastic parents.

    The problem is that she's become more and more negative over the last few years, you can understand the hurt and upset she's going through but she's also become very bitter towards those who are having kids. This manifests itself in criticism of them and how they behave in pregnancy or parent their child and her obvious upset when told that x or y is pregnant. She comments when someone gets engaged/is soon getting married that they'd better not get pregnant before her (tongue in cheek) but when it's so obvious how unhappy she is for people it's not very nice to deal with.

    In our group and in this day and age everyone has a lot to cope with, in the last year other friends have gone through redundancy, ill health, bereavement and other negative issues as well as a lot of positive, happy events. I'm fairly direct and have gently suggested on a few occasions that she needs to count her blessings of which she has many. There's a definite resentment towards me since, nothing overt and the same goes for other friends who've made similar, genuinely well meant comments.

    If she socializes with us she'll almost invariably look for someone to talk to about her gynae issues and people have started avoiding her and us. We've all rallied round and been there for her but I for one find it really disturbing to have a friend who would be unhappy if something good happened to me. Every friends babys christening/kids birthday party she goes to she gets tearful and it's gotten to the stage where most of our friends have said they'd rather have family only events in future as she's upset them at what should be postive events for them. Again, can I reiterate that she is a friend and we all care for her but it seems attention seeking to go to an event like that and want to talk about her fertility issues.

    She has been on hormone treatment so this is probably messing her up emotionally as well, it's just gone on so long now and as I've said, everyone has stresses and upsets in life but every outing/meeting with her is about her problem. e.g. During a shopping trip she'll go into the maternity or newborn section and get tearful/start talking about how she wishes she was shopping in there. Her husband is not really an approachable type, he maintains that they will get pregnant and is also critical of friends who have kids and their approach to parenting.

    I know it's all stemming from their pain and noone wants to cut them out, especially as there is such a large group. She was great fun before and I'm afraid that they're going to go too far some day and it's going to blow up in a huge argument. I would rather have the difficult conversation and say that she's being (in my eyes) unfair to others. I just want other peoples opinion (especially ladies who were ttc, I'd hate to make her situation worse by confronting her). Is their behaviour normal? Should her friends confront her directly about it or just back off and hope she doesn't upset other events she's invited to? Thanks for reading this far.


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,420 ✭✭✭Lollipops23


    hi OP. i don't know a whole lot about ttc, but her behaviour has crossed a line. ruining happy occasions of others is not on.

    she appears to have an almost fanatical and unhealthy fixation with pregnancy/parenting. this,as you said, is most likely stemming from her pain at not being able to conceive. what were her attitudes to pregnancy before she started ttc?

    she may need to look at counselling or a ttc support group?others in a similar situation who will be as eager to discuss gyne issues as she is?

    you're trying your best to be supportive but she's not exactly doing herself any favours. perhaps try to approach it delicately?things can't continue the way they are.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,006 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Listen, I really sympathise with you. I have a friend like this, we actually worked together. She spent 5 years ttc.

    She became exactly the same, the clomid/IVF horrors. Very bitter and resentful and impossible to be with. I dont know how I endured it, everyone else could avoid her as they didn't have to work with/socialise with her.

    I dutifully put up with her self pity but it got to unendurable levels. One day she had a sh1t fit when I dared to go to lunch with someone else and screamed all over the office at me. She had lost everyone else except family who were all younger than her and having babies.

    I eventually couldn't take it any more and told her to feck herself after the lunch episode. It was just that every day relentlessly was about her and her battle to conceive. It was obsessional and beyond draining. I wouldnt mind but she was even jealous of a friend of ours that had a stillbirth. Thats how bad she was. I wouldn't mind but I was also childless, single and older than her at the time. But her selfishness was pathological.

    I had to endure it though as we worked together. After the blowup over the lunch she started to back off a bit. I told her she had become impossible and I think she could see she was making her own life a misery.

    Infertility/childlessness is hard but it does not give the person the right to bully and terrorise everyone around them and make life a complete pity party for them.

    I do emphasise that not all people having difficulty concieving are like this, some keep a smile on their faces and behave with brave dignity.

    I ended up telling her what she was being like, everyone was avoiding her and she had to know. Her sister and sisters in law were terrified announcing their pregnancies and she made every situation about her.

    You are going to have to speak to this friend and get her to see that having kids is important but it does not give her the right to destroy every pregnancy announcement/baptism kids party for years to come. If she cant deal with this herself then she will have to get counselling.

    I dont have kids but hey ho -thats life you can't lie down and die over these things.

    The world does NOT revolve around her.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,006 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Op it sounds like you have been very good to your friend but tbh if you've never been there yourself you'll never be able to comprehend how utterly devastating this is for her. Having said that, it is not fair for her to allow this to affect your friendships like this.

    I've been there myself and in my case the only that worked was tough love. Don't gently remark. Invite her around for a homecooked meal or something and sit her down & tell her exactly what you said in your post. Don't attack her, and be sure to let her know that you understand she is going through a tough time and you want to be supportive to her but that you will not continue to accept her behaviour.

    Maybe not straight away but she will thank you for it.

    Also direct her to the following forum, a great bunch of girls and alot going through the same thing as her.

    http://vhirefugee.myfastforum.org/forum2.php&sid=d0bd0e48d4750d72e1fc61778cfa344e


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,006 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Hi op here again, thanks so much for your insight and suggestions, am glad to see others have been in similar situations and to hear from someone who was in my friends shoes also. Will bring it up with her as diplomatically as possible, she's not as aggressive as the lady described by one of you, although she has gotten very defensive if someone isn't walking on eggshells to accommodate her feelings. There's always a story about how some new mum/pregnant lady/work colleague/randomer was incredibly insensitive to her situation and I definitely think she's finding fault/insult where there's none.

    It's exhausting and upsetting to deal with that begrudgery and negativity all the time. She had counselling for grief after miscarriage before but the counsellor didn't seem to incorporate approaches to moving on and coping with the loss. She was a real good-time girl before and wasn't all that positive about children. We presumed that she and her husband weren't into kids and didn't plan on having a family. This is going on for 3 years now and could potentially last another 4-5, most of us have distanced ourselves from her as it is, I'd rather give her the option of keeping her friendships than let her alienate herself. She's not online outside work but will let her know there are forums that might help her through this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,005 ✭✭✭Ann22


    I've had 5 miscarriages sadly. I'm lucky enough to have had two children though...ten years between them. Had many people saying to me 'isn't it time you had another one?' and 'would you not go again?'...ffs! Anyway, I know what it's like to be disappointed and devastated time and time again and how it feels to see pregnant women everywhere. It is gutting. However I've never let it show..or I'd never take away someone else's joy at their pregnancies.
    I mentioned on a thread before that I read a letter in a mag once from this woman who'd had years of failing pregnancies, who'd spent the younger years of her marriage crying and hankering after what would never be. Her husband passed away as she was entering the menopause..then she realised that she'd wasted years she'd had with her lovely husband. They could've travelled and enjoyed themselves more and had a love life not just geared towards a conception. That made a big impression on me. We really should appreciate what we have.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,104 ✭✭✭easyeason3


    OP I hope I never have a 'friend' like you.


  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 47,393 ✭✭✭✭Zaph


    easyeason3 wrote: »
    OP I hope I never have a 'friend' like you.

    easyeason3, if you wish to post here again I suggest you read the part of the charter dealing with unhelpful and off-topic posts before doing so.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,104 ✭✭✭easyeason3


    Zaph wrote: »
    easyeason3, if you wish to post here again I suggest you read the part of the charter dealing with unhelpful and off-topic posts before doing so.


    I'm not going to apologise for having an opinion on this. I think the OP is being a bit harsh on what she has written so far hence my comment.

    I can understand a small bit of her annoyance towards certain things but I have a big problem with the cold way it was written in.

    I have two friends who are trying to concieve, so I know what is involved in it, I know how they blame themselves, I know how they think it is their fault, I know how they change their diet, I know how emotional they get & I also know how they don't want to be the girl in the corner crying because they can't do the 'natural thing' & produce a child.
    I get why you gave me the warning but I still don't understand the OP.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,420 ✭✭✭Lollipops23


    easyeason3 wrote: »
    I'm not going to apologise for having an opinion on this. I think the OP is being a bit harsh on what she has written so far hence my comment.

    I can understand a small bit of her annoyance towards certain things but I have a big problem with the cold way it was written in.

    I have two friends who are trying to concieve, so I know what is involved in it, I know how they blame themselves, I know how they think it is their fault, I know how they change their diet, I know how emotional they get & I also know how they don't want to be the girl in the corner crying because they can't do the 'natural thing' & produce a child.
    I get why you gave me the warning but I still don't understand the OP.

    what about OPs friend who is making everyone around her miserable?how can you justify making people scared to annouce pregnancies or ruining happy occasions because she's so obsessed?don't get me wrong, i really feel for her, i can only imagine how horrible it is for her and the emotional rollercoaster she is on. But, like anything else in life, she can't go on taking it out on her friends. Imagine in 2 years time she is lucky enough to have a baby?she'll get no visitors to share in her joy as she'll have no friends left.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    easyeason3 wrote: »
    I have two friends who are trying to concieve, so I know what is involved in it, I know how they blame themselves, I know how they think it is their fault, I know how they change their diet, I know how emotional they get & I also know how they don't want to be the girl in the corner crying because they can't do the 'natural thing' & produce a child.
    Everybody's life has its ****tiness. Nobody has any right to project their ****ty life out into someone else's. Yes, it's fine to talk about it now and again and look for sympathy but when your behaviour is negatively affecting your relationship with your friends, the problem is with you and not with your friends.

    OP, I would say that you should take your friend aside, alone, and suggest to her that she goes to a professional to talk about everything. She needs to come to terms with the possibility that it may never happen for her. What then? Is she going to continue resenting everyone who has children? The patience of your friends is not an unlimited resource and should never be taken for granted.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,006 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Hi OP,

    I'm trying to tcc at the moment, mid thirties. Been trying for a few years. For me the pain has lessened as time has gone on. A few years back I'd make excuses to avoid friends with babies though I never let on to anyone. Now it doesn't seem to hurt me as much. Perhaps I didn't have such good friends that I thought I could come clean to them about how I'm really feeling. But as I've said, I've been through so much pain over it (and still have bad days) that it doesn't hurt as much.
    Maybe just have a supportive chat with your friend. Tell her that if/when she has a baby people would be just as happy/happier for her. Please thread lightly. I know you're sympathetic but infertility is a really deep sadness because it goes against instinct in a way that redundancies and the ordinary ups and downs of life don't. But as I said she probably won't go on feeling the same level of pain in the future, so don't leave her with a bitter memory of you.

    I have one friend who has a great way of dealing with me. She's forever on about 'kids - who'd want them!!' I know exactly what she's doing (how she's trying to support me) but I never let on. ;-)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,006 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Hi again. Thanks for your replies, easyeason3 I'm not going to apologise for my opinion either and I'm lost as to how you took my writing approach as cold, I do appreciate your perspective and like you have been there with this friend and others hoping to get and hold onto a pregnancy. If it was just that she was depressed about it I'd be there completely. I know she'd never wish anything bad on any of her friends but it's upsetting that she isn't wishing us well either.

    Friends who haven't met someone they want to settle down with are naturally finding her experiences frightening as they see so clearly what they might go through are upset by it (upset for her as well as for what might be ahead for them) and by the fact that they know that if they don't have problems she'll be personally upset that someone else didn't have it as tough as she did.

    Unreg and Ann22 thanks for your replies, this girl is on a one track mind and any mention of kiddies/counting her blessings upsets her deeply. I hope you are successful in ttc unreg. Seamas, I'd be of your viewpoint, there's only so much negativity you can project onto people before you drive them away. Thanks all, more food for thought.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,006 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    I know you're sympathetic but infertility is a really deep sadness because it goes against instinct in a way that redundancies and the ordinary ups and downs of life don't.

    I disagree. We are creatures of free will and we are capable of programming our minds to accept things we dont like and become positive about them. The poster that mentioned about the woman who became obsessed and neglected her marriage and subsequently lost her husband illustrates what I mean.

    You can allow it to take over you or you can feel it and hurt BUT decide this is not going to destroy me. I might not have a child BUT I still have a life, its hard but whats the alternative? Destroy your whole life and play the victim?

    I can not conceive and my chance has passed, yes it is sad and heartbreaking and draining but at no time can I say did I behave in a jealous, bitter, aggressive or Diva like way twords others who were lucky enough to have children. I made a decision not to and stuck to it.

    As well as instinct we have higher minds, we need to employ these at times of soul destroying dissappointment.

    Yes the girl needs to vent off her pain and anguish somewhere harmless like a message board BUT no its NOT acceptable to be a malevolant spectre in the background, filled with hate, jealousy, resentment to others who do have children.

    Its wrong, its not their faults we cant have kids.....its wrong to punish them.
    When it gets to that babyZilla level the woman needs counselling.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,006 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    I disagree. We are creatures of free will and we are capable of programming our minds to accept things we dont like and become positive about them. The poster that mentioned about the woman who became obsessed and neglected her marriage and subsequently lost her husband illustrates what I mean.

    You can allow it to take over you or you can feel it and hurt BUT decide this is not going to destroy me. I might not have a child BUT I still have a life, its hard but whats the alternative? Destroy your whole life and play the victim?

    I can not conceive and my chance has passed, yes it is sad and heartbreaking and draining but at no time can I say did I behave in a jealous, bitter, aggressive or Diva like way twords others who were lucky enough to have children. I made a decision not to and stuck to it.

    As well as instinct we have higher minds, we need to employ these at times of soul destroying dissappointment.

    Yes the girl needs to vent off her pain and anguish somewhere harmless like a message board BUT no its NOT acceptable to be a malevolant spectre in the background, filled with hate, jealousy, resentment to others who do have children.

    Its wrong, its not their faults we cant have kids.....its wrong to punish them.
    When it gets to that babyZilla level the woman needs counselling.


    I'm the unreg you just replied to. And I disagree with you.

    I'd rather loose ten jobs if it meant having one baby, in fact I'd probably rather loose my house, or even a family member (well a distant one), or maybe even my right eye (oooh I probably shouldn't write that!! only joking, well sort of...)

    Trust me, I'm dealing with infertility, trust me I believe the OPs friends reactions are insensitive, particularly as the OP said, to those who haven't even had the opportunity to ttc.

    All I'm saying is that as you'll see from my post, over time, the girl's pain will lessen, as yours has, and mine is. But to me its not the same pain as ordinary ups and downs, never will be. I'm not saying infertile people have some kind of patent out on sadness, we all have our issues.

    I'm only at the start of accepting that I may never give birth or teach my own child or have grand kids to visit when I'm old, and neither will my husband, if we survive infertility. Believe me I'm not going to let it ruin my life. But so far infertility (loss of dreams/hope) has caused me greater pain and made getting up in the morning and carrying on a greater struggle than anything else I've encountered and I've had my fair share of ups and downs in other areas. But as I said, when you start to accept the pain lessens, I'm sure the OPs friend will get there eventually, all I said was to handle with care til she does.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,006 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    OP - maybe you don't mean to, but I think you sound unsympathetic towards a friend of yours who is obviously going through a terrible time. In fact, you sound like you think that she should just "snap out of it" because she has become such a downer and is spoiling social events for you and the rest of your circle.

    As someone who is infertile, telling me to count my blessings is about as useful as telling someone who has just had his legs amputated that at least he still has the use of his arms. The grief of infertility is something that takes years to come to terms with and will never entirely leave.

    My partner and I are the kind of people who put a brave face on things, and we faithfully turned up to christenings and babies' birthdays with big smiles on our faces and I'd say nobody suspected how heartbreaking it was for us. In retrospect, I think that that was a huge mistake because it minimised our loss to the people that knew us, and it added to the perception that infertility is something that you can just bounce back from instead of something that dismantles your life and your perception of your future.

    Think of it this way - your friend is being honest. And she has enough trust in you and your circle of friends to show how much this is devastating her. You are repaying that trust by complaining about what a drag she is. Everybody needs good friends, and good friends are the people that stick by you through the very bad times - even when it seems a bit tedious to hear the same story again and again. I bet you hope that that, when the time comes that you suffer one of life's major setbacks, they'll all be there for you. Why can't you be that person for your friend right now when she needs you, instead of focusing on what a downer her company is?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,420 ✭✭✭Lollipops23


    Why can't you be that person for your friend right now when she needs you, instead of focusing on what a downer her company is?

    because all she does is lament her hardships and ruins what should be happy occasions. look, infertility is horrific and i disagree with another poster saying it does not go against the most basic of instincts'; it does. but why should her entire life be ruined by it??she's not dying, she's not sick, so yeah she should count those blessings. Making her friends scared to talk to her is not on.
    I stand by my earlier point that she has an unhealthy and obsessive fixation on baby making.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,006 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    I'm not saying infertile people have some kind of patent out on sadness, we all have our issues.

    Ah but it IS what your saying. You describe your pain and how all encompassing it was....which is such a common thing you see with people affected by infertility.....utter exceptionality.....

    My suffering is the BIGGEST, most PAINFUL and everyone else must prostrate themselves at the alter of my woe.

    Actually no, everyone else does not have to do that. The double standard you often see in which the infertile person is dismissive of other peoples 'issues' and can be horribly insensitive themselves is what I have noticed.

    As I said one of the worst things I saw was the then infertile girl throwing a jealous wobbly when some colleagues sympathised with another colleague who had to give birth to her stillborn baby. Infertile girls rationale was 'WELL AT LEAST SHE CAN HAVE A BABY ....what about poor me....bla bla bla....."

    Its insufferable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,006 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    OP - maybe you don't mean to, but I think you sound unsympathetic towards a friend of yours who is obviously going through a terrible time. In fact, you sound like you think that she should just "snap out of it" because she has become such a downer and is spoiling social events for you and the rest of your circle.
    I'm really sorry that you've had problems unreg and I definitely didn't mean to come across as you've stated above. It's the begrudgery towards those who aren't having fertility problems that's the biggest issue for me and what is to me, inappropriate venting of her sadness and grief. Her stories are not tedious to us and in the correct setting we're always there for her to vent.

    Congratulations you're pregnant is a phrase that precedes does x know yet and the hope that she wont upset the person in question when she hears. There have been some pretty awful responses to the news and some of our partners are wondering why we're still talking to her, we're really trying to be sympathetic and understanding. Personally if it tore me apart so much inside to go to a christening/kids birthday party I'd make my excuses and decline graciously or go to the ceremony and skip the party.
    I bet you hope that that, when the time comes that you suffer one of life's major setbacks, they'll all be there for you. Why can't you be that person for your friend right now when she needs you, instead of focusing on what a downer her company is?
    Some of us have suffered major setbacks as I've said - bereavement (including one very young family member dying in a tragic manner), miscarriage, family and monetary upsets and this friend does not see that these "count" as much as her grief nor deserving of as much sympathy. That is what is troubling me and making me wonder if she needs someone who cares for her and doesn't want to abandon her to have a word. Thanks for your pov and once again I'm sorry that you and your husband have encountered such problems, you wouldn't wish it on your worst enemy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,006 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    OP - maybe you don't mean to, but I think you sound unsympathetic towards a friend of yours who is obviously going through a terrible time. In fact, you sound like you think that she should just "snap out of it" because she has become such a downer and is spoiling social events for you and the rest of your circle.

    As someone who is infertile, telling me to count my blessings is about as useful as telling someone who has just had his legs amputated that at least he still has the use of his arms. The grief of infertility is something that takes years to come to terms with and will never entirely leave.

    My partner and I are the kind of people who put a brave face on things, and we faithfully turned up to christenings and babies' birthdays with big smiles on our faces and I'd say nobody suspected how heartbreaking it was for us. In retrospect, I think that that was a huge mistake because it minimised our loss to the people that knew us, and it added to the perception that infertility is something that you can just bounce back from instead of something that dismantles your life and your perception of your future.

    Think of it this way - your friend is being honest. And she has enough trust in you and your circle of friends to show how much this is devastating her. You are repaying that trust by complaining about what a drag she is. Everybody needs good friends, and good friends are the people that stick by you through the very bad times - even when it seems a bit tedious to hear the same story again and again. I bet you hope that that, when the time comes that you suffer one of life's major setbacks, they'll all be there for you. Why can't you be that person for your friend right now when she needs you, instead of focusing on what a downer her company is?

    Its a case of degree though.

    She has gone beyond showing her devastation, she has started to poison every event and make it about herself. She has moved beyond upset and anguish and into being impossible to be around.

    It sounds to me that you and your partner got it right, striking the balance between being happy for other people when appropriate but also awknowledging your pain.

    But thats not whats going on here. The girl has become obsessed and is behaving in a very damaging way to herself (alienating everone despite their best patience) and others.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,006 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Ah but it IS what your saying. You describe your pain and how all encompassing it was....which is such a common thing you see with people affected by infertility.....utter exceptionality.....

    My suffering is the BIGGEST, most PAINFUL and everyone else must prostrate themselves at the alter of my woe.

    Actually no, everyone else does not have to do that. The double standard you often see in which the infertile person is dismissive of other peoples 'issues' and can be horribly insensitive themselves is what I have noticed.

    As I said one of the worst things I saw was the then infertile girl throwing a jealous wobbly when some colleagues sympathised with another colleague who had to give birth to her stillborn baby. Infertile girls rationale was 'WELL AT LEAST SHE CAN HAVE A BABY ....what about poor me....bla bla bla....."

    Its insufferable.


    Really? Bit of a sweeping generalisation, no? This is something you've noticed with many infertile people?

    I can't say I've noticed it. In fact I've one childless friend who recently mentioned (in a childless to childless moan, which us non-sproggers do all the time aparantly!) thats she's regularly buying presents for seven children (friends's) - birthdays and xmas's, thats 14 trips to the shops for other people's kids a year. She even babysits and I've never heard her talk resently about the fact that others have kids, just that sometimes they seem to forget she doesn't, like when her marriage broke up partly as a result of childlessness and some people who should know better were quick to say 'well at least you don't have kids'!!! I got told the same when I lost a job, by people with kids who didn't seem to realise that to a childless person a job can mean alot more than just a way to pay the bills (as it can for anyone, but its not like I have the upside of 'oh well, more time with the kids')

    Most people I know, including me and my hubbie and some other posters here face childlessness bravely and often silently, we have to.

    I'm not capable of measuring other people's pain or saying that a fertile person does or doesn't suffer more from a still birth than someone who never even gets pregnant or suffers multiply miscarriages does. I'm sure it depends alot on the person and its not a competition.
    But no, it DOESN'T equate with redundancies or ordinary ups and downs or even the death of an older person, not for me anyway and that was my point. For some people, when you discover you are infertile, it tears down alot of expectations and yes, recreation is a basic human instinct, we're designed that way, physically and psychologically. You have to learn to build a new identity that incorporates childlessness. Its not the same as financial worries or breaking up with a boyfriend...

    Perhaps you took what your friend said about the still birth out of context. Surely she didn't mean it that way you think she did? Maybe she was trying to say that at least the other woman has a chance to mourn for what she's never had/lost while the ttc woman will never have an avenue to mourn what she hasn't had but still has the sadness? Maybe if you could have expressed herself better you might not have judged her. Very inappropriate timing though.

    There is no excuse for insensitive behaviour from either the childless or sproggers. But I don't think being childless makes someone more likely to be an asshole!!!




    OP, a quiet chat with your mate will probably sort this out.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 320 ✭✭*Honey*


    It's such a tough one, I see both sides of the situation.

    I've had two miscarriages - they were totally and utterly the most devastating episodes in my life to date (and believe me, I've been through some sh1t in the past). After the first one, all I could think was babies, getting pregnant, being pregnant, doing whatever it took to get back to where I had been, back to being happy. When I lost the second one, I thought I was cursed.

    I had many many black moments, times that nobody but my husband knows about. It's so hard to talk about it, people (in general) don't know what it say and don't really want to talk about it - it's such a tough and lonely place. OP, your friend sounds very lost to me - very very lost and alone. She is bitter because she doesn't have the one thing she probably wants most in the world - she did have it and then lost it .... there's such a devastation behind it, I can't really put it in words (suffice it to say that I'm tearing up writing this). The pain is never far from the surface and she sounds like she's a living ball of pain.

    I see it from your side too though - it is draining to be around someone who only exudes negativity, it feels like the life is being sucked from you at times. Having come from some very very black times, all I can say is she is probably drowning right now and I'm sure doesn't want to be like this and probably cannot find a way out of the grief. It's so hard... I would suggest grief counselling for her but it's a touchy subject (and, in a way, she needs to want to get it, in order for it to work). The reality is, getting pregnant again will not be the answer to her dreams because you do nothing but worry yourself sick anyway.

    Another poster mentioned the story of woman who relentlessly pursued having a family only for her husband to die quite young (early retirement age I think?). My husband and I realised that we were so so tired of always looking to the future, waiting to see what happens, living life in 2 week chunks, charting calendars and checking your bits all the time to see what your cycle is like - not to mention the fears over losing another one. It can consume you. It's so hard to know how it feels for someone who's not been there and I appreciate that may sound bad and I don't mean it to. My husband and I just wanted to be happy, to live our lives again, to live now and stop always looking over our shoulders. So we just stopped but it took us about 2.5 years of all this to get to that point of acceptance - and it took work on both our parts, so much talking and so many tears.

    I would urge you to try and be there for your friend, I know she's probably doing your nut in right now and it's hard to understand but I just think she sounds like she's crying out for help but doesn't know how to get it, how to verbalise it even (and I think she does that in her bitterness), she's a ball of pain at the moment. It will get better but it will take time. In the meantime, try with her ... miscarriage and the fallout of it is a very lonely experience and it's certainly the time when I found out who my real friends were (very few as it happened, unfortunately).

    It's such a tough situation for all invovled - it often speaks to the very heart of a person... we as women are brought up believing we can just drop sprogs left right and centre; to find out that you can't, that you can't do "what comes naturally" for other women, is really hard to come to terms with. Added to that, the loss of a child ... and the loss of the dreams and wishes for that child, it's just such a difficult time.

    Please try and bear with her as much as you can... I know it's tough but she sounds to me like she needs friends more now than ever.

    Unreg who posted the VHIrefugee thread... wonder if I know who you are, I used to spend far too much time on there!

    I hope I've not gone on too much, sorry for writing a novel.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,006 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Why does the whole ttc process involve giving birth, if the end result is a child to love and rear why isn't the adoption process even mentioned in this thread?

    to hold and love a child and rear it are what its all about.

    Maybe it's me, and the way I think, but too much emphasis is put on the whole giving birth to your own.... and maybe this is offline, but if I felt the need to love a child and wanted one so much I would go forward with adoption if I felt that all options personally were exhausted?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,006 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    I find it incredible posters are trying to excuse the OP's friend's behaviour.

    Understanding the reason for something and condoning or excusing it are too very different things. Yes the friend is suffering and needs her friends' support. It's also clear that she is getting that. What's no excusable is her behaviour and the effect it's having on others, not matter what difficulties, grief or hardship she is suffering.

    To then suggest that the OP is a bad friend despite being there for her, supporting her and letting her vent is just ridiculous.

    OP, I would suggest a small group of you sit her down and talk to her. Be careful to not criticise her directly, but start out with the statement that you are concerned about her. Highlight the "bad" behaviour, not as criticism but as indicators of an issue you are concerned about, i.e. her well being, pointing out that she is not the kind of person who would normally react or act like that. She will react badly to all this, probably call you all uncaring bitches and so on, but you must all remain calm, supportive and concerned - put all the focus on her, how her actions are not nice etc rather than how badly they make you all feel. It's shirking round the issue slightly and effectively babying here, but the idea is that you highlight her poor behaviour without coming across like you don't like or support her. Just my 2 cents....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,006 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Why does the whole ttc process involve giving birth, if the end result is a child to love and rear why isn't the adoption process even mentioned in this thread?

    to hold and love a child and rear it are what its all about.

    Maybe it's me, and the way I think, but too much emphasis is put on the whole giving birth to your own.... and maybe this is offline, but if I felt the need to love a child and wanted one so much I would go forward with adoption if I felt that all options personally were exhausted?



    People want to have their own kids.

    Otherwise why wouldn't more people who can have their own adopt?

    Its also hard to judge when all options are exhausted. After 5yrs? 10 yrs? a certain age? ttc is full of uncertainty.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,006 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    I find it interesting that those who have experienced infertility are those who are standing up for the OP's friend. Those who haven't, aren't. Maybe it's a case of "walk a mile in my shoes". I wonder too whether the lack of sympathy is a reflection of the age (and gender?) profile of boards themselves? Certainly in my 20's I never expected to be going through this - and it was never something that I thought about when other people mentioned it.

    Infertility is a silent sorrow - and there is a genuine taboo about talking about it. Those who suffer from it are encouraged to talk about their lie-ins and holidays that they can have because they are childless, instead of talking about the endless grief that infertility brings.

    Your friend is breaking the taboo. And she is genuinely going through a terrible time. If you are all out of sympathy and genuinely tired of her outbursts during occasions then you'll have to tell her, as gently as you can. She may choose to distance herself from the rest of you - and given that you're all getting a bit sick of her, then maybe that's a good thing. It sounds like your patience is wearing thin and by doing this it would avoid an impatient outburst instead of saying something thoughtful.

    I'm not going to pass judgement. However, I will say that being infertile is very lonely, and you need all the friends that you can get. Before you say anything, weigh up carefully what her friendship means to you. If it doesn't really bother you to lose it, then maybe it's not worth holding on to - for you or for her.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 225 ✭✭calahans


    I find it interesting that those who have experienced infertility are those who are standing up for the OP's friend. Those who haven't, aren't. Maybe it's a case of "walk a mile in my shoes". I wonder too whether the lack of sympathy is a reflection of the age (and gender?) profile of boards themselves? Certainly in my 20's I never expected to be going through this - and it was never something that I thought about when other people mentioned it.

    Had noticed this too!

    You need to be gentle with this person. To procreate is the basic function of all life and when you have problems with this, or find that its impossible, it shakes your world to its roots. It is not the same as unemployment or heartbreak - it exists on a different level.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,006 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Why does the whole ttc process involve giving birth, if the end result is a child to love and rear why isn't the adoption process even mentioned in this thread?

    to hold and love a child and rear it are what its all about.

    Maybe it's me, and the way I think, but too much emphasis is put on the whole giving birth to your own.... and maybe this is offline, but if I felt the need to love a child and wanted one so much I would go forward with adoption if I felt that all options personally were exhausted?

    Yes adoption can bring a lot of joy to many. Difficult in this country as so many babies aren't given up..and if you're past a certain age you aren't considered. Some who have money go abroad.
    A lot of people though would love a child to be a little part of them and their partner. As well as that it's one thing being told there's no way you can ever conceive and not knowing if it'll ever happen. If you know there's no chance, you can move forward to adoption but if you don't know if it's going to happen any time soon, it's incredibly difficult to know what to do.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,909 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    *Honey* wrote: »
    Having come from some very very black times, all I can say is she is probably drowning right now and I'm sure doesn't want to be like this and probably cannot find a way out of the grief.

    Honey's post is a fantastic one but this point is worth highlighting. Your friend probably hates herself for the way she is behaving and the effect this is having on her life. She would never have chosen to feel how she does. Since my miscarriage I find it extremely hard to be around pregnant women, especially those who got pregnant by accident. A friend of mine announced her pregnancy last month and I am not even remotely happy for her. I despise myself for feeling that way, and I wish it was otherwise, but I can honestly say I am not even the tiniest bit pleased for her.

    Nobody knows I feel this way. The vast majority of our friends don't know about the miscarriage and I'm a decent actor so I can fake being happy for those expecting or those with newborns. But it's all fake, I go home and I cry and cry. And worst of all I hate myself for feeling the way I do. As far as I know I have no fertility problems as I haven't tried properly to get pregnant since it happened, but I can't imagine what I'd be like if I ever lose another pregnancy or if I try for years without ever getting pregnant again. I wouldn't have the strength to fake being happy for people because as it is, it feels like it takes everything I've got.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,006 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Adoption is not always the answer. You need to be very sure that that is what you want, and not just a consoloation prize for not being able to conceive yourself. If you are infertile, you need to have totally come to terms with and have accepted this before you can move on to adoption.

    Furthermore the whole process to do with adoption is incredibly fraught and upsetting. There are endless delays waiting for a preparation course, waiting for a social worker and then waiting for a referral. Not to mention the stress of opening up every aspect of your life for assessment (I'm not questioning this by the way - this part is totally necessary).

    Finally, at the end, you should be prepared for disappointment. We're five years waiting for an adoption now, only to be told that our Government has let the agreement with the country that we wanted to adopt from, lapse. We have no idea whether we're going to be able to adopt from there or not.

    If your friend is thinking of adoption, then she needs to be in a much steadier frame of mind than she appears to be in at present. It's not by any means an easier alternative to having your "own" baby and - as we've just found out - the process is just as heartbreaking as any failed infertility treatment.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,909 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Adoption is not always the answer. You need to be very sure that that is what you want, and not just a consoloation prize for not being able to conceive yourself. If you are infertile, you need to have totally come to terms with and have accepted this before you can move on to adoption.

    On top of that adoption can be very, very expensive. I know a number of people who have adopted from Russia and eastern Europe and it cost them about €50,000 in total for 2 adoptions.


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