gaping hole in irish politics left by pds

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

Sorry if this has been posted before but I browsed in here and saw the opinion poll thread, looked at the options and couldn't pick one of them.

None of them sync with my views on Ireland and the direction it should be going. I was a member of the PDs and think they shouldn't have disbanded, there's no party with a right wing agenda in this country, for want of a better word.

Fine Gael are probably the closest but with the political structure of this country they'd have to be in coalition with Labour, Greens or Sinn Fein.

Anyone agree there's a need for a new party?

P. Breathnach

Yeah. The Polite Party, whose members could disagree with others without resorting to caricature representations or abusive language.

mike65

The fact the PDs withered on the vine suggests that there is no room for another party of any significance. On the left Democratic Left ended up getting subsumed into Labour (some would say it was an accidental DL takeover). The economic right has never been a big market segment, the PDs early success was based on a mix of not being Charlie Haugheys party and crusading for the free market/competition etc. Now all parties are for "the market" in large part even as they bail out the banks.

Labour are not Commies - they lack the strength of character for that!

O'Coonassa

georgiecasey wrote: »

there's no party with a right wing agenda in this country

Apart from all of them...

Nodin

Given the size of their vote over the last few elections, I doubt 'gaping' is the best choice of word.....

turgon

One of the reasons for the PD demise was that they had in effect been swallowed up by FF. When I first became "politically aware" I used to hate them because to me they were no different to FF.

Because of that I would have to disagree with mike65.

mike65

That suggets you are too young to comment!

turgon

mike65 wrote: »

That suggets you are too young to comment!

Well I only started really paying attention the last 6 or 8 months or so but your probably right.

mike65

Trust me, in 1985 there was a philosophical chasm between the two. The PDs changed the whole political environment. In 1985 pretty much everyone agreed (in an unspoken way) that the state should run everything and that there was little wrong with a standard tax rate of 35%. The PDs and Charlie McCreevy (who was involved behind the scenes before the split and nearly joined) reckoned differently.

jmcc

When I read the title of the thread, the first analogy I thought of was that of an assh0le and a turd. This aptly describes the PDs and their position in the Irish body politic.

Regards...jmcc

NewDubliner

georgiecasey wrote: »

None of them sync with my views on Ireland and the direction it should be going. I was a member of the PDs and think they shouldn't have disbanded, there's no party with a right wing agenda in this country, for want of a better word.

Hypocrisy would be a better word. The PDs claimed to be in favour of good business and efficient use of taxpayer's money, but did the opposite. The public saw through this and put them out.

We don't need another two-faced party like them.

For the most part, FG would satisfy the the 'right-wing' agenda (if you like that sort of thing), were it not for their willingness to compromise in order to get into power.

irish_bob

deep down many people did and still do share PD core beliefs , its just we are such a populist loving people who are not mature enough to support people who tell it like it is and declare them selves unapolegetic right wingers
in public we all declare our hatred for them , that and the fact that our left wing dominated media never stopped savaging them resulted in them being seen as being to the right of genghis khan which of course was never the case

no room for a new party but i would love to see fine gael becoming a true party of the right , if only they had the courage , thier is a sleeping giant of middle ireland private sector tax payers out there who have no voice , if they would go for it , such are the unprecedented times we live in with traditonal life long FIANNA FAILERS deserting the party , fine gael could in all seriousness get the votes to form a goverment without labour which is exactly what needs to happen

Permabear

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Iwasfrozen

Yes, indeed, we have an extremely lopsided political spectrum in this country. Every single party in the nation, large or small, is left-wing. I don't know offhand of any other free country where this is the case.

Libertas are a party now, are they not right wing enough ?

P. Breathnach

donegalfella wrote: »

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Not at all: they are all right-wing. You're standing in the wrong place.

[Well, Joe Higgins & co. may be left-wing, but their political stance is so naive that I don't take them as a serious political party.]

irish_bob

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Not at all: they are all right-wing. You're standing in the wrong place.

[Well, Joe Higgins & co. may be left-wing, but their political stance is so naive that I don't take them as a serious political party.]

thier all right wing , yeah sure , this is a country where the term VULNERABLE is applied to a retired doctor or garda insepector as both are entitled to visit a gp for free , this is a country where the leader of the so called conservative party recently stated that those in the public sector who earn less than 100k should not face cuts , this is a country where thier has been no calls from any party for any reduction in a dole that is trebble that of our nearest neighbour

give me a break , no politician in this country is to the right ( in public anyhow ) let alone a party with the exception of perhaps leo varadakar and personally i think hes just snooty , he,d be the same were he in the labour party

irish_bob

donegalfella wrote: »

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agree with most of your post donegal but while none of the parties are right wing , i dont agree that they are all left wing as such , thier isnt enough of an idealogy there to brand them as left wing , they are all populist parties to one degree or other who jostle for possition in that very crowded centre

Joey the lips

georgiecasey wrote: »

Sorry if this has been posted before but I browsed in here and saw the opinion poll thread, looked at the options and couldn't pick one of them.

None of them sync with my views on Ireland and the direction it should be going. I was a member of the PDs and think they shouldn't have disbanded, there's no party with a right wing agenda in this country, for want of a better word.

Fine Gael are probably the closest but with the political structure of this country they'd have to be in coalition with Labour, Greens or Sinn Fein.

Anyone agree there's a need for a new party?

Hi George I always admire anybody that makes a break in politics prob since my father gave out when Des O Malley broke away orig. He is a limerick man and my mom is a clare women so Des O Malley was always the topic in my houes

However less of the emotion I think personally where the PD'S failed is they were to much like Fianna Fail. I have no time for sheamus Brennan(RIP- No doubt he is a lovely man and great father) Martin Cullen or Unfor Mary Harney. I think they have been the most damaging thing ever to the PD'S

Lastly the PD's only real venture out ahead of Fianna Fail is a majour attemp at the privatisation of public assets and this something I dont think the irish state is ready for a while yet

Permabear

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RiverWilde

Gap in the political spectrum indeed.

The problem with the PD's is that they're so right wing they left a good majority of the voting public behind them.

The coalition between FF and PD and now the other minority parties just highlights the major flaw in the electoral system.

Minor parties who are not representative of the entire country get a say in policy formation. When you couple that with a govt. majority in parliament you get a clique who are free to run the country as they see fit. For their own benefit and unfortunately for the rest of us that means they run the country into the ground.

Riv

irish_bob

donegalfella wrote: »

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garrett fitzgerald was the worst thing that ever happend to fine gael , while kenny wishes to appeal to the likes of the social partners , with the right man at the helm , i think fine gael could rediscover thier conservative soul and i believe they would be rewarded for it

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

The PDs always had to work extra hard for votes, no family had a tradition of voting for them like FF and FG, I think that's they flopped so badly in 2007. They didn't stand out enough from FF so people just voted for their old reliables.

I think they'd do well if an election was called today and they were around, their policies are what a lot of people I know are thinking, less government and public sector, cut social welfare, eliminate unions, cut tax, tough on crime.

I know so many people with the same views as me, roaring at Question and Answers when the union leaders are given free reign to talk their ****e. The media in this country are all left. Look at Vincent Browne on TV3 and the Irish Times. Where are the centre-right journalists in Ireland apart from Kevin Myers and Ian O'Doherty in the Indo and maybe Matt Cooper when he writes for the Sunday Times.

Lastly the PD's only real venture out ahead of Fianna Fail is a majour attemp at the privatisation of public assets and this something I dont think the irish state is ready for a while yet

I agree Ireland isn't ready for it yet but it definitely needs to be done.

cyclopath2001

georgiecasey wrote: »

Lastly the PD's only real venture out ahead of Fianna Fail is a majour attemp at the privatisation of public assets and this something I dont think the irish state is ready for a while yet

I agree Ireland isn't ready for it yet but it definitely needs to be done.

Like Eircom? That was one of the great succeses of the PDs. Some very rich people got richer. Joe the small investor got screwed and the rest of us ended up paying the same as befor and the company is up to its armpits in debt.

Let's start by privitising Anglo Irish?

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

I was gonna mention Eircom which was a mistake, the positive externalities of a first class broadband structure in this country would far outweigh the innefficiencies in a public company. It should have been split into eircom networks which would run the infrastructure and be public and another company sold to the public that would sell to end-consumers and keep the brand name.

And Joe the investor wasn't forced at gunpoint to invest was he?

cyclopath2001

georgiecasey wrote: »

It should have been split into eircom networks which would run the infrastructure and be public and another company sold to the public that would sell to end-consumers and keep the brand name....And Joe the investor wasn't forced at gunpoint to invest was he?

There was a big advertising campaign encouraging everyone to buy.

Then the PDs let 'market forces' (i.e. their rich suporters) have their way.

jmayo

donegalfella wrote: »

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Jeeze with that type of description, the next messiah must be a liberal and free marketeer
Yep Charlie, of the light regulatory touch.
What about Sweden, Norway how many real right wing parties do they have ?
Yeah of course France had Le Pen, was he right wing enough for you or were you more a Pinochet fan ?
I am no fan of powerful unions and I think the public sector in drastic need of reform inside and out, but I don't want everything we own or every necessary service provided by some Denis O'Brien or Tony O'Reilly.
See Eircom as example.

irish_bob wrote: »

garrett fitzgerald was the worst thing that ever happend to fine gael , while kenny wishes to appeal to the likes of the social partners , with the right man at the helm , i think fine gael could rediscover thier conservative soul and i believe they would be rewarded for it

Garrett Fitzergerald I would say tried to drag this country into the 20th century, socially speaking. Would you rather an Eoin O'Duffy clone was leader of FG ?

georgiecasey wrote: »

I was gonna mention Eircom which was a mistake, the positive externalities of a first class broadband structure in this country would far outweigh the innefficiencies in a public company. It should have been split into eircom networks which would run the infrastructure and be public and another company sold to the public that would sell to end-consumers and keep the brand name.

And Joe the investor wasn't forced at gunpoint to invest was he?

At least we agree Eircom was a mistake and the networks division should have remained public, but people like Dongelfella refused to see this point and want to go down the Thatcher route which has resulted in the fine example of Railtrack, who every other year are looking for more state handouts to keep the rail infrastructure going.

PS our wired broadband availability in this country is so bad, you can't get decent broadband less 20 miles out of Dublin city centre, right along major national route. I fcuking despair.
Knowledge economy me A***. :mad::mad:

partyguinness

Lets call a spade a spade here.

The politicans don't run this country. There is no idealogical stance in this country.

Its the senior advisors who dictate policy that matter.

You have seen "Yes Minister"...you wldnt believe how true that is.

What concerns me is the nepotism, lack of intellect and real industrial experience in our political leaders. People joke about Michael O'Leary..I would love to let him in charge for a few years. Too many vested interests and "me feiners" in this country. I have these imbeciles knocking on my door asking for my vote..I mean..some ****ing farmer who left school at 16 who is still fighting the Civil War...give me a break..what does he know about macro-mico economics. I know all politics is local but thats the very problem.

I mean politicans who barely did their Leaving Certificate are now lecturing us on the economy. They havent got a clue.:mad:

There has to a drive to get real experts running and guiding this country not career bureaucrats/civil servants who are only concerned with reelection

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

jmayo wrote: »

Jeeze with that type of description, the next messiah must be a liberal and free marketeer
Yep Charlie, of the light regulatory touch.
What about Sweden, Norway how many real right wing parties do they have ?
Yeah of course France had Le Pen, was he right wing enough for you or were you more a Pinochet fan ?

When I said right wing in the OP, I meant in the economic sense. The PDs were socially liberal. They were like the neo-cons in the states who are the opposite end of the spectrum to Le Pen.

I am no fan of powerful unions and I think the public sector in drastic need of reform inside and out, but I don't want everything we own or every necessary service provided by some Denis O'Brien or Tony O'Reilly.
See Eircom as example.

At least we agree Eircom was a mistake and the networks division should have remained public, but people like Dongelfella refused to see this point and want to go down the Thatcher route which has resulted in the fine example of Railtrack, who every other year are looking for more state handouts to keep the rail infrastructure going.

PS our wired broadband availability in this country is so bad, you can't get decent broadband less 20 miles out of Dublin city centre, right along major national route. I fcuking despair.
Knowledge economy me A***. :mad::mad:

Have you travelled on the English rail service? I have, it puts CIE to shame as regards to prices.

Do you honestly think a public run company than do things as efficiently as a private one can? It's me and you paying for this througher higher prices and taxes.

partyguinness

Furthermore, I hold the PD personally responsible as a major factor in contributing to the high cost of living here...obviously not the only factor.

The min wage set at such high levels was crazy and I could never understand why they kept raising it.....it made no sense. Any muppet could see that this would directly impact on the cost of services for employers and industry.

Dont even get me started on public sector wages....

It also gave people unreal expectations and a disincentive to go to univeristy and further education. We had carpenters and entry level jobs being paid better than IT/Engineers/ Lawyers etc and from a much earlier age.

We have to base ourselves as a knowledge based economy (R&R, innovation) but now we dont have enough graduates with the required skills. They are plumbing houses in Australia....:eek:..just look at the dearth of male graduates. Dont get me wrong I have nothing against the construction industry but the wrong message was going out and lack of emphasis in 2ndry school on science, maths, IT.

It was almost as if the PDs wanted to show off.

But the expression...horse- bolted comes to mind now.

irish_bob

georgiecasey wrote: »

The PDs always had to work extra hard for votes, no family had a tradition of voting for them like FF and FG, I think that's they flopped so badly in 2007. They didn't stand out enough from FF so people just voted for their old reliables.

I think they'd do well if an election was called today and they were around, their policies are what a lot of people I know are thinking, less government and public sector, cut social welfare, eliminate unions, cut tax, tough on crime.

I know so many people with the same views as me, roaring at Question and Answers when the union leaders are given free reign to talk their ****e. The media in this country are all left. Look at Vincent Browne on TV3 and the Irish Times. Where are the centre-right journalists in Ireland apart from Kevin Myers and Ian O'Doherty in the Indo and maybe Matt Cooper when he writes for the Sunday Times.



I agree Ireland isn't ready for it yet but it definitely needs to be done.

good post

i agree about pd,s having to work harder to win seats , its the same with all the smaller parties , the bar is much higher when you dont have FG or FF on your back , as someone said not that long ago , in parts of rural ireland , a donkey running for fianna fail would top the poll ahead of barrack obama running for say LABOUR

it was always a mystery to me that the pd,s didnt become a much larger party considering thier core policy beliefs one would think were quite compatible with a large section of society , especially considering the increase in college graduates in the past twenty years , one would think there was a large number of people out there who wanted a party who along with wanting to leave more money in peoples pockets , had no traditonal baggage to the likes of the church , farming class etc which both fianna fail and fine gael do , surely the pd,s should have had at least as wide an appeal as labour , for some strange reason all theese shared views didnt translate into votes but then again should we be all that surprised , most people in ireland still vote based on whoever thier grandad voted for and nobodys grandad ever voted pd

P. Breathnach

georgiecasey wrote: »

I think they'd [the PDs] do well if an election was called today and they were around, their policies are what a lot of people I know are thinking, less government and public sector, cut social welfare, eliminate unions, cut tax, tough on crime.

I don't think the PDs would recognise that picture of them. They never set out to cut social welfare, nor to eliminate the unions. Perhaps they felt that way, but they didn't advance such policies.

I know so many people with the same views as me, roaring at Question and Answers when the union leaders are given free reign to talk their ****e.

Dear, oh, dear. Shouting at the television does you no good, and doesn't advance your agenda. Which is just as well, because even the PDs did not support the withdrawal of the right to express opinions.

The media in this country are all left. Look at Vincent Browne on TV3 and the Irish Times. Where are the centre-right journalists in Ireland apart from Kevin Myers and Ian O'Doherty in the Indo and maybe Matt Cooper when he writes for the Sunday Times.

Tosh. The media have moved considerably to the right over the past few years.

One of the reasons why the exchequer is in a mess is the structure of our tax system, with low taxes on income and relatively high dependence on spending taxes. That's the legacy of the PDs and their fellow-traveller Charlie McCreevy. Do we really want more of that?

Neo-liberalism is a busted flush.

Joey the lips

I am sorry to upset you but the PD'S are gone cause there policys were wrong, there leadership under Mary and Michael was utterly a disaster and finally they were two alike fianna fail. They are not around because of this incompetance so there is no point analy what if....

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

irish_bob wrote: »

urely the pd,s should have had at least as wide an appeal as labour ,

I think it's also out of ignorance of people who would have voted for PDs if they knew their policies. I find a lot of people "into" politics tend to be on the left if you know what I mean. I was a member of the Young PDs in college and we were barred from having a booth on Socs day by some Young Labour nutters taking student politics wayyyy too seriously. I just said sod it. You're prob right, the silent majority of young, hard working people prob just voted who their parents did and got on with their lives.

nesf

P. Breathnach wrote: »

One of the reasons why the exchequer is in a mess is the structure of our tax system, with low taxes on income and relatively high dependence on spending taxes. That's the legacy of the PDs and their fellow-traveller Charlie McCreevy. Do we really want more of that?

From what I've heard one of the reasons for McCreevy's long trip to Brussels was his wish to cut spending after the 2002 election. I don't know how much truth is involved but if he did argue for cutting spending back then I sincerely doubt he'd have held onto his Ministry for very long.

Permabear

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Dyr

When i saw the title I presumed it was a reference to Mary Harney...

Permabear

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irish_bob

donegalfella wrote: »

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as the fella once said , it gets funnier every single time i hear it

Dr Galen

Joey the lips wrote: »

I am sorry to upset you but the PD'S are gone cause there policys were wrong, there leadership under Mary and Michael was utterly a disaster and finally they were two alike fianna fail. They are not around because of this incompetance so there is no point analy what if....

i'd disagree with you here in a sense. The PD's are gone because, yes, they became too like FF. They're core vote, became disillusioned by policy and saw that they were softening up in a lot of their more radical viewpoints.

wasn't it McDowell who said "radical or redundant", appears the man was more insightful than many give him credit for

cyclopath2001

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

i'd disagree with you here in a sense. The PD's are gone because, yes, they became too like FF. They're core vote, became disillusioned by policy and saw that they were softening up in a lot of their more radical viewpoints.

In 1997 the government introduced cycle lanes. In 1998, the PDs introduced a law allowing drivers to drive in cycle lanes. That says it all for the PDs.

Permabear

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cyclopath2001

donegalfella wrote: »

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That was the original regulation before the PDs made their sneaky change to it.

Now, since the PD amendment, passed in 1998, if the cycle lane has a broken white line (as most do) there's no law against driving or parking on it. At a stroke, taking wiping out the advantages of cycle lanes, while still making it compulsory for cyclists to use them.

This kind of tactic of giving with one hand, while secretly taking back more with the other was eventually rumbled by the electorate.

sceptre

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

In 1997 the government introduced cycle lanes. In 1998, the PDs introduced a law allowing drivers to drive in cycle lanes. That says it all for the PDs.

Weren't the PDs very junior partners in a coalition at the time? They may have been punching above their weight (at least according to a few FF TDs I hd conversations with around that time) but unless they promised not to you could really blame both coalition partners if that's one of your primary issues over the past 12 years.

I reckon there are a large number of reasons to dislike the PDs but I wouldn't lump the above solely in their court unless they were clearly the driving force behind the change.

Pride Fighter

The PD's are an absolute disgrace. Mary Harney is even more corrupt than FF themselves. She gives hospital co-location contracts to her husband, in an act not only of rampant neo-liberalism but corruption as well.

Also she delayed the construction of terminal 2 at Dublin airport by 5 years as she wanted terminal 2 to be fully privatised and run by her buddy Ulick McEvaddy. The same guy who called the golden circle 'patriots'.

PD's are rotten to the core, as are FF and FG. OP FG seem to fit your modus operandi, they want to close all hospitals and privatise them. Turning the health service into a neo-liberal basket case like the Dutch model where patients are called 'customers'.

As for right wing economics, they made the current mess we are in. When FF and the PD's loosened regulations we got the disastrous building boom that made our current recession the WORST IN THE WORLD. Zoning decisions in all local councils aided this, building on flood plains and shoddy deals. FG supported this. FF and FG comibine to make 3/4 of all councillors, if FG did not support this, their councillors could have stopped it, they did not.

One of the greatest thing to happen to Irish politics was the destruction of the PD's. I will end by quoting 2 men I loath. "Left-Wing Government, No Thanks". Actually Michael McDowell, yes please, right wing bullcrap got us were we are today. "all these people cribbing and moaning about the economy should just kill themselves". If only you killed yourself Bertie and all your other Neo-Conservative and Neo-Liberal friends in FF, FG and ex-PD's killed themselves maybe we would have an Ireland of equals, an Ireland that works, an Ireland uncorrupt, an Ireland by the people, of the people, for the people and not cronyistic and corrupt.

Dr Galen

Pride Fighter wrote: »

. Turning the health service into a neo-liberal basket case like the Dutch model where patients are called 'customers'.

.

OT i know, but the Dutch health system is actually one of the best in Europe and the model is one well worth examining and discussing. The Dutch system is far from a basket case though

Pride Fighter

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

OT i know, but the Dutch health system is actually one of the best in Europe and the model is one well worth examining and discussing. The Dutch system is far from a basket case though

Its the same as the American one. Those who can afford it get the best healthcare while those with nothing get shafted. Neo-liberal ideas have to be destroyed, helping all and not the wealthy should be the modus operandi of any democracy, a democracy should help ALL people, not just those who can afford to pay.

Permabear

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Dr Galen

well no, it doesn't operate on the same basis as the US system, which I will agree has it's gaping holes alright.

Social medical insurance is compulsory in the Netherlands. Those who can afford it pay it, those who can't get a subsidy from the government. The government there has thus become a buyer of health services, not a supplier as well. It appears to be working very well, shorter waiting lists, reduced MRSA incidence and now, a growing body of medical research and development, which is creating jobs and status for the country.

what you say about those who can afford to pay getting treated, and those who can't getting shafted, seems depressingly like the syetem we operate here, never mind in Holland. You can hardly argue, that after massive investment, the government run system is really benefitting patients at present?

Anyway, we're going off topic here, I remember seeing a thread on FG health policy a while back. this discussion should probably go in there

cyclopath2001

sceptre wrote: »

I reckon there are a large number of reasons to dislike the PDs but I wouldn't lump the above solely in their court unless they were clearly the driving force behind the change.

Statutory regulations don't need any great influence agreement from other parties they just get authorised by the relevant minister, in this case: Bobby Molloy.

Let's add 'decentralisation' to the PDs lamentable record. Pioneered with great enthusiasm by Tom Parlon. A huge (and ongoing) waste of public money (but a great boon to rich property developers) from a party committed to reducing public sector costs. Guess where Tom works now?

The PDs record is one of lofty rhetoric while covertly doing the opposite, we don't need a return of them or their politics.

jmayo

Pride Fighter wrote: »

PD's are rotten to the core, as are FF and FG. OP FG seem to fit your modus operandi, they want to close all hospitals and privatise them. Turning the health service into a neo-liberal basket case like the Dutch model where patients are called 'customers'.

While I agree with some of your sentiments, I fear what type of country we would have if a Labour controlled by the unions, as they dominate the public sector, was in power.

BTW what does the HSE call patients, an inconvenience perhaps ?
I would rather be called a customer and get a proper service than what they currently offer.
Health service unions and health service worker respresentative groups have a lot to answer for.
If you can defend the cack handed service that has resulted in misdiagnosis resulting in deaths, long waiting lists for necessary treatments, over crowded A&Es all the while wasting money on reports, ill thought out IT systems, bonuses, ill advised consultant contracts, over paid over staffed admin offices, then you are no better than Harney.

I have no respect for anyone that has presided over the creation of an even bigger mess that the public health service has become in this country and she doesn't have the decency to resign or take any responsibility, but passes the buck to an inept PR driven management failure.
Systemic failures me ar**, tell it to the families of patients who have died because of these systemic failures.

Is it any wonder that the PDs' died when all they had to offer is a loud mouth arrogantly bellowing and a ould wan who refuses to accept any responsiblity for any of her departments actions.
To adopt a well know phrase, they had become more FF than FF themselves.

EDIT: I forgot that other former leading light, Mr Parlon, who firstly used the OPW, pushed decentralisation before promptly running off to lead the call for builder and developer bailouts.
Yes and outstanding example of the PD's and their representatives.

Pride Fighter

jmayo wrote: »

While I agree with some of your sentiments, I fear what type of country we would have if a Labour controlled by the unions, as they dominate the public sector, was in power.

The Labour Party are in the process of reform. These reforms will give the party leader greater powers and sever all links with the Unions. This will make them a genuine Social Democratic party and enable them to headstrong tackle vested interests like the IMO and Unions, whose executives are on obscene money. Sure with Social Partnership the Unions always supported FF, Labour have had no Union support since the 80's.