Spiritualism and the Catholic Church

An CROI

I have been told that I should speak to a medium or spiritulist but I have also been told that this goes against the teachings of the Catholic Church and Catholicism in general

Are mediums and spiritualists compatible with the Catholic religion or is it going against the teachings of Church to seek out mediums?

Angie77

An CROI wrote: »

I have been told that I should speak to a medium or spiritulist but I have also been told that this goes against the teachings of the Catholic Church and Catholicism in general

Are mediums and spiritualists compatible with the Catholic religion or is it going against the teachings of Church to seek out mediums?

It states clearly in the word of God that such practices are not permitted read Leviticus Ch.26 Verse 27

Oryx

Angie77 wrote: »

It states clearly in the word of God that such practices are not permitted read Leviticus Ch.26 Verse 27

Its lazy of me I know, but could you link to the actual text? I already knew the churches stance but Im interested in reading that.

An CROI

One has to wonder why so many Catholics and Christians partake in Angel courses and Reiki courses and other new age practices that have become popular over the last few years.

An CROI

Oryx wrote: »

Its lazy of me I know, but could you link to the actual text? I already knew the churches stance but Im interested in reading that.

Oryx,

You might also check - for a Vactican view

www.vatican.va/.../rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html

An CROI

Angie77

Hi there are many references in The Bible. Here are but a few:

Deutronmy 4:19
Do not be tempted to worship of serve what you see in the sky - the sun moon or stars.

Deutronmy 18 10-13

Do not let your people practice divination or look for omens or use spells or charms and dont let them consult the spirits of the dead. The Lord your Gods hates people who do thesse disgusting things.

Leviticus 19:13

Do not go for advice to people who consult with spirits of the dead

Oryx

An CROI wrote: »

One has to wonder why so many Catholics and Christians partake in Angel courses and Reiki courses and other new age practices that have become popular over the last few years.

Probably because they do not get sufficient spiritual sustenance from the religion they are officially members of. An interesting question would be why, but I think thats off topic right now.

Oryx

An CROI wrote: »

Oryx,

You might also check - for a Vactican view

www.vatican.va/.../rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_new-age_en.html

An CROI

Im getting a dead link there.

An CROI

Oryx wrote: »

Im getting a dead link there.

Try copy and paste the link into the browser.

An CROI

Oryx

An CROI wrote: »

Try copy and paste the link into the browser.

An CROI

I did.

Im also wondering what the churches stance would be on people who pray to their own deceased relatives for intercession?

BeatNikDub

One point an CROI. You say you have been "told" to see a psychic/medium which makes me somewhat uncomfortable about the situation.
I dont know the circumstances but whatever they may be and whatever you eventually chose to do make sure it is something you want to do so yourself and makes sense to what your purpose may be.

Take care,
Nikki

An CROI

Oryx,

Go to the Vatican website. www.vatican.va

Click on English

Use the search box for the term "new age"

Look for "Jesus Christ The Bearer Of The Water Of Life - A Christian" in the answers.

Hopefully that will work!

An CROI

Angie77

Oryx wrote: »

I did.

Im also wondering what the churches stance would be on people who pray to their own deceased relatives for intercession?

Praying to deceased Souls is different, when you do this you are presuming they are with God and will intercede for you, otherwise your prayers will help their release from Purgotory

An CROI

BeatNikDub wrote: »

One point an CROI. You say you have been "told" to see a psychic/medium which makes me somewhat uncomfortable about the situation.
I dont know the circumstances but whatever they may be and whatever you eventually chose to do make sure it is something you want to do so yourself and makes sense to what your purpose may be.

Take care,
Nikki

Hi BeatNikDub,

In fairness - I should point out that I started this thread last May and started the thread to open a fair discussion into the use of mediums, psychics etc. by Catholics and Christians - and also to encourage open debate in relation to the Angel "movement".

In hindsight I should have used quotation marks in the start thread. My BAD:(. Sorry!!!!!

I am a practicing Catholic and therefore won't be attended or seeking the advices or anything else from a medium.

If this thread is to continue - I feel it only fair that I make my own stance known therefore for the purpose of transparancy ---- I would (and do) discourage Catholics and Christians from seeking out and using mediums etc.

I hope this clears this up.

An CROI.

Oryx

Angie77 wrote: »

Praying to deceased Souls is different, when you do this you are presuming they are with God and will intercede for you, otherwise your prayers will help their release from Purgotory

I dont see it as different. Is the bible specific on this? The small bit of googling I just did brought up a link which said you shouldnt pray to dead saints, let alone regular dead people.

Angie77

Oryx wrote: »

I dont see it as different. Is the bible specific on this? The small bit of googling I just did brought up a link which said you shouldnt pray to dead saints, let alone regular dead people.

Could you post this link Please

Oryx

http://www.bible-knowledge.com/Praying-to-Dead-Saints.html

An CROI

Isn't it the case that you pray "for" souls and not "to" them?

An CROI

Angie77

By making a Novena or such like to a specific Saint we are not praying to them....... We are asking them to intercede for us before God

Oryx

An CROI wrote: »

Isn't it the case that you pray for souls and not "to" them?

An CROI

Im thinking of specific cases that we all know of and may have done ourselves. Youre going through a rough patch and you sit in prayer and ask your mam/gran/brother/friend 'please, please help me with this'. Or you get staunch catholics who see nothing wrong in saying 'I know my mammy is watching me now...' I just see a contradiction in that.

Without even getting into the contradiction of the priest I know of who practices 'New Age' beliefs.

Angie77

When praying the Rosary, we are asking Our Lady to intercede for us!

An CROI

Oryx wrote: »

Im thinking of specific cases that we all know of and may have done ourselves. Youre going through a rough patch and you sit in prayer and ask your mam/gran/brother/friend 'please, please help me with this'. Or you get staunch catholics who see nothing wrong in saying 'I know my mammy is watching me now...' I just see a contradiction in that.

Without even getting into the contradiction of the priest I know of who practices 'New Age' beliefs.

The contradiction is the same as the staunch catholic embracing the new age. It is happening - mainly due to mis-understanding of the Catholic Faith and its teachings.

I am sure there are a few priests who are practicing new age beliefs. I have also heard of some nuns practicing. All the more reason for clarity regarding the New Age movement.

An CROI

Oryx

An CROI wrote: »

The contradiction is the same as the staunch catholic embracing the new age. It is happening - mainly due to mis-understanding of the Catholic Faith and its teachings.

I am sure there are a few priests who are practicing new age beliefs. I have also heard of some nuns practicing. All the more reason for clarity regarding the New Age movement.

An CROI

So do you agree with the church that this kind of stuff is the same as communing with the dead and is 'disgusting' and 'an abomination'?

eddie73

An Croi,

If you are going to follow the Bible to the letter of the law, praying to saints etc even if it is intercession is forbidden.


I am not a practicing Christian. I always find it curious when the Church issues condemnations about the so called New Age on their beliefs.

By the same token, it is just the same as Maria Simma seeing dead people, Padre Pio likewise, the Rosary and Marian devotion and prayer to any saint for that matter. There is also the issue of praying to statues which is a huge part of Catholic culture and belief, also forbidden in the bible.

Without trying to sound like a bore, there have been no instances of yet of institutional abuse within the Reiki movement.

So live and let live. People, glass houses and stones comes to mind.

An CROI

Oryx wrote: »

So do you agree with the church that this kind of stuff is the same as communing with the dead and is 'disgusting' and 'an abomination'?

I agree that Catholics and Christians should not seek to use mediums or embrace the new age beliefs.

However my opinion is directed to Catholics and Christians.

Whilst I would hope that all people would spurn these things I accept that other faiths do allow and promote these things. As I believe in freedom of religion - I don't direct my opinions to people of other faiths or religions or those with no beliefs at all.

An CROI

Oryx

An CROI wrote: »

I agree that Catholics and Christians should not seek to use mediums or embrace the new age beliefs.

However my opinion is directed to Catholics and Christians.

Whilst I would hope that all people would spurn these things I accept that other faiths do allow and promote these things. As I believe in freedom of religion - I don't direct my opinions to people of other faiths or religions or those with no beliefs at all.

An CROI

I accept that your feelings are directed towards the people who share your faith, and not at the population as a whole.

I wasnt clear, but when I asked my question above, Im specifically referring to the example I gave of normal catholic folk praying to their dear departed family and friends, as mentioned earlier. Im interested in what you feel is the churches stand on that.

An CROI

eddie73 wrote: »

An Croi,

If you are going to follow the Bible to the letter of the law, praying to saints etc even if it is intercession is forbidden.


I am not a practicing Christian. I always find it curious when the Church issues condemnations about the so called New Age on their beliefs.

By the same token, it is just the same as Maria Simma seeing dead people, Padre Pio likewise, the Rosary and Marian devotion and prayer to any saint for that matter. There is also the issue of praying to statues which is a huge part of Catholic culture and belief, also forbidden in the bible.

Without trying to sound like a bore, there have been no instances of yet of institutional abuse within the Reiki movement.

So live and let live. People, glass houses and stones comes to mind.

Eddie,

I think you are missing the point.

One of my points is that if you are Catholic or Christian then the new age is contrary to your beliefs therefore you should not engage in these practices.

If you are not Catholic or Christian then, fair enough, engage with whatever you wish.

The main point is that a large amount Catholics and Christians are failing to understand that these practices e.g. the "Angel Movement" is contrary to their faith possibly because of the way in which the "Angel Movement" presents itself i.e. The Angel Movement is presented as part of the Catholic / Christian faith - when is most certain isn't.

An CROI

eddie73

The Angel movement like any other organized belief system is harmless until it starts to try to make money out of people.

I dont know if i am missing the point when I suggest that the Catholic Church issues rules for its members while adpoting double standards of Saint and Marian worship.

Angie77

Oryx wrote: »

I accept that your feelings are directed towards the people who share your faith, and not at the population as a whole.

I wasnt clear, but when I asked my question above, Im specifically referring to the example I gave of normal catholic folk praying to their dear departed family and friends, as mentioned earlier. Im interested in what you feel is the churches stand on that.

Most of us would prefer to belive that our departed loved ones have gone straight to Heaven, so joining in The Communion of Saints and so we ask for their intercession. " I believe in The Holy Spirit, The Holy Catholic Church, The Cummunion of Saints and Life everlasting. Amen"

Taken from "The Apostles Creed"

getz

i am very confused with all this,but catholic church dose say,they believe in the bible,yet they miss the verse about jesus being the only mediator, regardless of who you believe is now in heaven,the bible makes it clear that we are not to pray to them,or to have contact with the dead,in anyway shape or form,jesus is the only one who can pass on our prayers,on jesus it says he will not share his glory with another, that means dont pray to no one expect him,because those people couldent hear you as they are still in the grave,after saying all this,and seeing the ghosts of the dead myself everything is not as black and white as religion tries to make out, on the rosery it was first adopted from the budist prayer beads same number of beads on the string by pope pius v in the 16th century,[not very christian]

Oryx

Angie77 wrote: »

Most of us would prefer to belive that our departed loved ones have gone straight to Heaven, so joining in The Communion of Saints and so we ask for their intercession. " I believe in The Holy Spirit, The Holy Catholic Church, The Cummunion of Saints and Life everlasting. Amen"

Taken from "The Apostles Creed"

But I have countless examples of people who 'talk' directly with their loved ones, not via the apostles creed. And I ask, would the church see this as disgusting?

An CROI

Oryx wrote: »

I accept that your feelings are directed towards the people who share your faith, and not at the population as a whole.

I wasnt clear, but when I asked my question above, Im specifically referring to the example I gave of normal catholic folk praying to their dear departed family and friends, as mentioned earlier. Im interested in what you feel is the churches stand on that.

I don't have authority to speak for the church. I can only give my opinion.

My opinion is that - Yes catholics pray to their departed family - I have done this myself - before I became more aware of my faith.

Your point is well made (and taken) and goes to support my point that Catholics and Christians do not always know that the manner in which they practice their faith(s) is not in accordance with their faith.

Same as the fact that Catholics and Christians engage in new age practices believing that they are part of, or at least not contrary to their faith.

An CROI.

Oryx

An CROI wrote: »

Your point is well made (and taken) and goes to support my point that Catholics and Christians do not always know that the manner in which they practice their faith(s) is not in accordance with their faith.

I would argue that the priests dont either, in that case.:) I was raised catholic, and never came across praying to relatives (in any manner) being discouraged. Ditto for praying to saints.

This thread is about spiritualism vs catholicism. In my experience of it, from the spiritualist pov, spiritualism is not supposed to contradict or oppose other religious practice. The aim is that it works with it in a complimentary way. They dont wish to have people abandon their faith, and you do have Christian Spiritualists.

People dont realise it is a religion, with a deep philosophy and belief system, as mediumship is so often portrayed as a scam.

BeatNikDub

An CROI wrote: »

Hi BeatNikDub,

In fairness - I should point out that I started this thread last May and started the thread to open a fair discussion into the use of mediums, psychics etc. by Catholics and Christians - and also to encourage open debate in relation to the Angel "movement".

In hindsight I should have used quotation marks in the start thread. My BAD:(. Sorry!!!!!

I am a practicing Catholic and therefore won't be attended or seeking the advices or anything else from a medium.

If this thread is to continue - I feel it only fair that I make my own stance known therefore for the purpose of transparancy ---- I would (and do) discourage Catholics and Christians from seeking out and using mediums etc.

I hope this clears this up.

An CROI.

Hey no problemo, thanks for clearing up.
Everyone is entitled to go with what they believe in and feels right to them (once it doesnt cause harm to others of course!), was just concerned that you may have been co-erced into something you werent sure of which is never a good thing.

I am going to step away now as I am not a Catholic - all the best!

An CROI

BeatNikDub wrote: »

Hey no problemo, thanks for clearing up.
Everyone is entitled to go with what they believe in and feels right to them (once it doesnt cause harm to others of course!), was just concerned that you may have been co-erced into something you werent sure of which is never a good thing.

I am going to step away now as I am not a Catholic - all the best!

Don't step away :eek:

You are entitled to your opinion - what is a fair debate without hearing ALL views and comments.

As I'm going away for the wkend - I won't be able to post again until next wk.

Cheers All

An CROI

Miss Sunshine

Oryx wrote: »

But I have countless examples of people who 'talk' directly with their loved ones, not via the apostles creed. And I ask, would the church see this as disgusting?

Good question!

I would like to put my two cents in quickly. I was raised catholic as a child. I've been through all the scaraments and went to mass every Sunday. As I got older and started to question beliefs instead of accepting them my faith started to flat line. I don't believe in God and I find the Church, (I can only speak for the Catholic Church as my knowledge of other religions is sketchy to say the least) to be detached from society and very hypocritical.

Since about the age of 16 I ceased believing in the afterlife and heaven. However, I have recenlty developed an interest in Mediumship and have been to see a few mediums. My Grandfather, an extremely religious man, has contacted me on some of those occassions. By going to these mediums I have a new found belief in the "afterlife" and life after death. Knowing that my loved ones are still around and their spirit continues to exist gives me comfort.

My question is this? If mediums can provide this comfort and reassurance of the Catholic Churchs teaching (ie. Life after death) then why is the Catholic Church so against it?

jimm55

An CROI wrote: »

I have been told that I should speak to a medium or spiritulist but I have also been told that this goes against the teachings of the Catholic Church and Catholicism in general

Are mediums and spiritualists compatible with the Catholic religion or is it going against the teachings of Church to seek out mediums?

Yes , seeking help from a medium does seem to go against the teachings of the church, but if you can justfy it in your own conscience, then I think you should consider going. Pray for guidence and follow your conscience. I went to Joe Coleman some years ago, and found his help invaluable.

An CROI

jimm55 wrote: »

Yes , seeking help from a medium does seem to go against the teachings of the church, but if you can justfy it in your own conscience, then I think you should consider going. Pray for guidence and follow your conscience. I went to Joe Coleman some years ago, and found his help invaluable.

Jimm55,

Your comment demonstrates a lack of understanding of the Catholic faith and the Catholic Church.

In most belief systems, and certainly in Catholism and Christianity - YOU don't justify your actions when they are contrary to your belief system. Much like in society YOU don't justify actions or crimes against that society - they are wrong - end of story!

I absolutely agree with your right to seek mediums etc. and sure, you can justify it in your own conscience - but not as a Catholic or Christian. If you are a Catholic, which I assume you are from you comments on the Joe Coleman thread (perhaps you would provide clarification) then you are acting in a manner which is contrary to your faith. Worse still and more importantly - You are acting against your religion and the Catholic Church by promoting and indorsing Mr. Coleman.

An CROI.

An CROI

Miss Sunshine wrote: »

Good question!

....... By going to these mediums I have a new found belief in the "afterlife" and life after death. Knowing that my loved ones are still around and their spirit continues to exist gives me comfort.

My question is this? If mediums can provide this comfort and reassurance of the Catholic Churchs teaching (ie. Life after death) then why is the Catholic Church so against it?

Miss Sunshine

There are many reasons the Catholic Church are against mediumship.

One is the question of the "source" of the messages.

Mediums think so highly of themselves, they are confident that they can open a channel to the "other side" and control what comes through. - WHY?

Who knows for sure that the "spirit" "coming through" is actually a loved one?

Many use "spirit guides" which they come to trust. - WHY do they trust these "spirit guides"?

AN CROI

jimm55

An CROI wrote: »

Jimm55,

Your comment demonstrates a lack of understanding of the Catholic faith and the Catholic Church.

In most belief systems, and certainly in Catholism and Christianity - YOU don't justify your actions when they are contrary to your belief system. Much like in society YOU don't justify actions or crimes against that society - they are wrong - end of story!

I absolutely agree with your right to seek mediums etc. and sure, you can justify it in your own conscience - but not as a Catholic or Christian. If you are a Catholic, which I assume you are from you comments on the Joe Coleman thread (perhaps you would provide clarification) then you are acting in a manner which is contrary to your faith. Worse still and more importantly - You are acting against your religion and the Catholic Church by promoting and indorsing Mr. Coleman.

An CROI.

Its not so much that I don't understand what the Church is saying, but rather that I don't accept that they are 100% correct, all of the time , about everything. Neither do I accept that I'm acting against my religion by telling people about Joe Coleman. It is high time that somebody told the truth. I know more about him than most people. He has been a close family friend for 12 years. Since he died in the hospital , he does have certain e.s.p ability. He has helped a lot of people. Be using his "gift" he saved the life of a young girl in west Dublin early this year. Do you honestly think that he was wrong to do this? He goes to Mass and the Sacraments. While I don't agree with everthing Joe says and does, he is a very genuine man.
I knew a priest who was a school friend of my dad's who had e.s.p similar to Joe. Only his family and close friends knew about it.

As to why mediums trust their spirit guides, Sharon Neill gives a good insight into why she trusts her particular guids in her book "Second Sight".

femur61

Oryx wrote: »

Im getting a dead link there.

Maybe you need to do some reiki

An CROI

jimm55 wrote: »

Its not so much that I don't understand what the Church is saying, but rather that I don't accept that they are 100% correct, all of the time , about everything. Neither do I accept that I'm acting against my religion by telling people about Joe Coleman. It is high time that somebody told the truth. I know more about him than most people. He has been a close family friend for 12 years. Since he died in the hospital , he does have certain e.s.p ability. He has helped a lot of people. Be using his "gift" he saved the life of a young girl in west Dublin early this year. Do you honestly think that he was wrong to do this? He goes to Mass and the Sacraments. While I don't agree with everthing Joe says and does, he is a very genuine man.
I knew a priest who was a school friend of my dad's who had e.s.p similar to Joe. Only his family and close friends knew about it.

As to why mediums trust their spirit guides, Sharon Neill gives a good insight into why she trusts her particular guids in her book "Second Sight".

Jimm55,

I don't always agree with the law of the land..... but I abide by the law of the land.

I rarely agree with government policies (NAMA etc.) and I am vocal in my opposition to those policys but I don't purport to support the government.

It appears to me that you want to have your cake and eat it.

You appear to present yourself as a Catholic / Christian while acting in a manner that is entirely contrary to Catholism / Christianity.

In many respects I think you miss the point. Mediumship, psychics, tarot cards, angel cards and all other things "New Age" are CONTRARY to the church - they are anti-catholic / anti christian and have their foundations in other belief systems many of which are mystic systems from the far east.

I believe in freedom of religion, so I don't have a problem if anybody wants to partake in these practices. Where I have an issue is when people who are Catholics / Christians embrace these occult practices without knowing that this is what they are doing.

Over the last few years (esp. with the appearance of the "angel movement" and the "new age" movement) many Catholics and Christians have embraced these occult practices believing that they are compatible with Catholism and Christianity.

They are not.

Once this is understood, if they want to continue with these practices then thats their choice - but at the very least be aware that they are acting against Catholism and Christianity.

If you are promoting practices which are contrary to your religion....are you not acting against you religion?

Without knowing anything about the priest you refer to I cannot make valid comment other than to say that as few people knew of the priests abilities it appears that he didn't or doesn't use them, which supports my previous comment and analogy.

BTW - does anybody know of any other purported Marian Visionary who embraces occult practices?????

An CROI

Frank_Leach

Angie77 wrote: »

Hi there are many references in The Bible. Here are but a few:

Deutronmy 4:19
Do not be tempted to worship of serve what you see in the sky - the sun moon or stars.

Deutronmy 18 10-13

Do not let your people practice divination or look for omens or use spells or charms and dont let them consult the spirits of the dead. The Lord your Gods hates people who do thesse disgusting things.

Leviticus 19:13

Do not go for advice to people who consult with spirits of the dead

"The Lord your God hates people"......?

Not my God, He doesn't. He loves all people, despite, and because o f, their failings.
Maybe that's the difference between religion and spirituality?

Each to their own i suppose, whatever works for you..

An CROI

Frank_Leach wrote: »

"The Lord your God hates people"......?

Not my God, He doesn't. He loves all people, despite, and because o f, their failings.
Maybe that's the difference between religion and spirituality?

Each to their own i suppose, whatever works for you..

Angie77

I'm not sure which version you have quoted can you post the version you quoted?

Deuteronomy 18:10-14 (English Standard Version is as follows: -)

"There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering,anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. And because of these abominations the LORD your God is driving them out before you. You shall be blameless before the LORD your God, for these nations, which you are about to dispossess, listen to fortune-tellers and to diviners. But as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you to do this."


An Croi

sambuka41

Its nearly impossible to live as a good catholic in this day and age, i imagine every catholic acts in a manner that is contrary to their religion. When they have sex before marriage, use of contraception, same sex couples, playing the lotto, swearing, adultery, this list goes on and on.

Life and (esp loss) is hard; people should be allowed seek relief and comfort in what ever form they find it. I would think any good religion or loving God would understand that.

There is a huge increase in people seeking the help of mediums or exploring other religions because for years there was no choice. People may return to the catholic church but not if they keep wagging their fingers and telling everyone they are disgusting,who would choose that, seriously? I wouldn't let anyone in my life tell me i am disgusting because i am looking for guidance or comfort.

Not trying to offend anyones religious beliefs just being realistic about whats an acceptable way to treat people.

jimm55

I was at a Mind , Body , Spirit. fair two years ago. In amoung all the mediums, card-readers etc.etc. was a priest hearing confessions. Was this a case of if you can't beat them, join them", I womder ?

Fuinseog

An CROI wrote: »

I have been told that I should speak to a medium or spiritulist but I have also been told that this goes against the teachings of the Catholic Church and Catholicism in general

Are mediums and spiritualists compatible with the Catholic religion or is it going against the teachings of Church to seek out mediums?

they are in competition with the church and floursihing in atime when the church is seemingly unable to give advice. catholics should seek out a priest for spiritual advice.there are some capable priests

Fuinseog

Oryx wrote: »

Its lazy of me I know, but could you link to the actual text? I already knew the churches stance but Im interested in reading that.

just read your bible

Fuinseog

An CROI wrote: »

One has to wonder why so many Catholics and Christians partake in Angel courses and Reiki courses and other new age practices that have become popular over the last few years.

because they do not realise that they are dabbling in other faiths. either one is a catholic or they are not. if they choose to dabble in these things they should be excommunicated.
even these horoscopes have made pagansim completely acceptable.

as indeed has harry Potter made witchcraft much loved. all we need now is someone is promote the nice side of satansim.

Fuinseog

[

.

Leviticus 19:13

Do not go for advice to people who consult with spirits of the dead[/quote]

trying to link up with the spiritual world is dangerous.

Fuinseog

An CROI wrote: »

Isn't it the case that you pray "for" souls and not "to" them?

An CROI

yes