Timing belt Snapped.....any comeback?

powert

Hi,

I'm wondering if anybody can help me out here. Just over 5 months ago myself and my wife scrapped together 2,000 in order to buy a 9 year old opel astra. At the time the garage (main dealer) would only give us 1 months warranty as the car was so cheep and promised us that the timing belt was done and car serviced etc. 2 days ago the timing belt snapped and make absolute s*it of the whole engine, I rang the garage and they told me the belt had been done before we bought it but not by their mechanics therefore they do not have to stand over it.

Can anyone tell me have we just been extremely unlucky and are we back to trying to save for a new car?????

L-M

First off bring it to a mechanic to diagnose why the belt snapped, they can usually tell, be it a broken pulley etc. etc. If it's due to a faulty part, or indeed the timing belt wasn't replaced and you have written confirmation from the garage saying the timing belt was done, you may have some leg to stand on, although it's very unlikely you'll get any compensation.

Get it to a mechanic to diagnose how it occured in the first place, you'll know where to go from there.

PCPhoto

contact a solicitor for the best advice.

try to find out from the garage who actually did the timing belt - contact them.

oh... make sure all your contact is on paper - write letters/E-mails and keep copies (trust me it'll be needed)

looks like garage is going to blame mechanic - and mechanic will prob blame faulty belt from manufacturer etc etc .... I think you need to talk to a solicitor and take a case against both (just my opinion - not actual legal advice)

from the sound of it the garage were pretty quick to say - not our problem.

Darragh29

powert wrote: »

Hi,

I'm wondering if anybody can help me out here. Just over 5 months ago myself and my wife scrapped together 2,000 in order to buy a 9 year old opel astra. At the time the garage (main dealer) would only give us 1 months warranty as the car was so cheep and promised us that the timing belt was done and car serviced etc. 2 days ago the timing belt snapped and make absolute s*it of the whole engine, I rang the garage and they told me the belt had been done before we bought it but not by their mechanics therefore they do not have to stand over it.

Can anyone tell me have we just been extremely unlucky and are we back to trying to save for a new car?????

First of all, your car is out of warranty and my advice to you is never deal with someone who can only offer a 1 month warranty on a car.

Having said that, the garage could have misrepresented to you, the condition of the car before you bought it. What mileage was on the car when you bought it and also when the timing belt broke?

It's unlikely that the issue here is the timing belt was replaced and was not done right. It would be very rare for a timing belt to be not done right and the problem not appear until 5 months later. Usually if the job wasn't done right, you'll know very shortly after.

This is making me think that the timing belt wasn't changed as you were told it was...

cnocbui

Don't bother taking it to a mechanic, that would be throwing good money after bad, IMO.

Im afraid you have been extremely unfortunate and there is next to no chance you will get any compensation for this, you'll just have to swallow it and move on.

My previous two cars both had belts break or slip. The most recent instance 15-20K before it was due a new one, and even that was my mechanics recommended service interval which was a further 20K less than the manufacturers official recommendation.

I have come to the conclusion that belts are a technology that is not up to the intended purpose, and they simply should not be used at all.

My current car is a Honda, and one of the main reasons I opted for it is that the engine uses a chain instead of a belt.

Mr. darragh

what honda engine/car has timing chain

powert

Hi,

Thanks for all the replies. My mechanic told me yesterday (closed today) that the belt just snapped and the head is damaged and that it's written on the engine that the belt was replaced in Nov. The car had 110k on the clock when we bought it and I'm not sure of the mileage now but it's less than 10k extra.

Is it worth going to the expense of a solicitor, I've been quoted 1100 to have it fixed.

bushy...

What may have happened is a pulley (or waterpump if its powered off the belt like i think it is ) wasn't replaced then it locked up and wrecked the belt.

Get a look / photo of the damage , some opels had purposely "weakened" cam followers, so they would snap when the belt failed , saving further damage.

mondeoman

Mr. darragh wrote: »

what honda engine/car has timing chain

Honda civic type 'R' 01-06 has chain (2.0)
& type 'S' & Type S VSA has chains
Honda Accord 2.0 & 2.4 have chains also (03-06):D
petrol models

wilson10

Only the head will be damaged, bent valves, broken followers etc.

It might be worth checking a few breakers for a replacement s/h head.

A new belt is relatively inexpensive. You will probably need a new tensioner.

Darragh29

What I'd suggest as well OP is to commit your grievance to paper and send a letter to the garage. Mention the fact that you are having an independent assessor examine the car and based on his findings, you will consider taking legal action if it emerges that the timing belt assembly was not replaced as you had been led to believe. Don't forget that the outlet that sold you the car, they don't know why you timing belt has snapped.

Also mention that you have received "preliminary legal advice", that states that the outlet you bought the car from are still responsible for work not carried out by another garage if you bought the car on the understanding that the timing belt was replaced before you purchased.

If it emerges that the timing belt was not changed or was changed but not changed correctly and this has resulted in the problem you now have, then you claim from where you bought the car from and they claim from their third party service provider if they so wish. I'll PM you on details of an independent vehicle assessor that I've dealt with before if you want to get a proper inspection done with regard to the cause of component failure.

I think you should be a bit more robust with the people you are dealing with, put it into a letter and tell them that if you are advised that the timing belt was not done or was done but not correctly, you will be taking legal action to recover the costs. Often this is enough to get the matter resolved. Don't forget the Small Claims Court is available to you...

seasam

Darragh29 wrote: »

What I'd suggest as well OP is to commit your grievance to paper and send a letter to the garage. Mention the fact that you are having an independent assessor examine the car and based on his findings, you will consider taking legal action if it emerges that the timing belt assembly was not replaced as you had been led to believe. Don't forget that the outlet that sold you the car, they don't know why you timing belt has snapped.

Also mention that you have received "preliminary legal advice", that states that the outlet you bought the car from are still responsible for work not carried out by another garage if you bought the car on the understanding that the timing belt was replaced before you purchased.

If it emerges that the timing belt was not changed or was changed but not changed correctly and this has resulted in the problem you now have, then you claim from where you bought the car from and they claim from their third party service provider if they so wish. I'll PM you on details of an independent vehicle assessor that I've dealt with before if you want to get a proper inspection done with regard to the cause of component failure.

I think you should be a bit more robust with the people you are dealing with, put it into a letter and tell them that if you are advised that the timing belt was not done or was done but not correctly, you will be taking legal action to recover the costs. Often this is enough to get the matter resolved. Don't forget the Small Claims Court is available to you...

The OP said that it's written on the engine that it was changed in November He bought a car for 2,000 with 1 month warranty and 5 months later the timing belt goes why should the dealer have to do anything for him ?

OP nothing against you sorry to hear the trouble you are having

Anan1

seasam wrote: »

The OP said that it's written on the engine that it was changed in November He bought a car for 2,000 with 1 month warranty and 5 months later the timing belt goes why should the dealer have to do anything for him ?

OP nothing against you sorry to hear the trouble you are having

If the OP got it in writing that the TB had been done then they could argue that the car was misdescribed.

seasam

Anan1 wrote: »

If the OP got it in writing that the TB had been done then they could argue that the car was misdescribed.

How is it misdescribed the belt was changed in November

Saab Ed

Guys , its a 2 grand car bought 5 months ago....C'mon. Op I do feel sorry for you in this situation but its a 9 year old car. Even if the timing belt was done there's nothing to say you havent put up 10 or 15 k in the 5 months or that another fault has occured which has led to a timing belt failure. When you buy an older car like that you should always allow for a little bit to be spent on it to be happy with the car yourself and always always do a timing belt. IMO any money spent now chasing the dealer is money wasted.....sorry to hear your bad luck though.

Anan1

seasam wrote: »

How is it misdescribed the belt was changed in November

If the belt was changed in November then it isn't.;)

bushy...

Saab Ed wrote: »

Guys , its a 2 grand car bought 5 months ago....C'mon. Op I do feel sorry for you in this situation but its a 9 year old car. Even if the timing belt was done there's nothing to say you havent put up 10 or 15 k in the 5 months or that another fault has occured which has led to a timing belt failure. When you buy an older car like that you should always allow for a little bit to be spent on it to be happy with the car yourself and always always do a timing belt. IMO any money spent now chasing the dealer is money wasted.....sorry to hear your bad luck though.

The tensioners , idlers & water pump should have been done when the belt was done , bit unlikely some other fault took it out or his mechanic would've said something like :
" the xyz went through the timing cover and broke the belt"
" the seal went n it drowned in a sea of oil "
" pulley came loose "

CreepingDeath

powert wrote: »

..that it's written on the engine that the belt was replaced in Nov.

When I got a timing belt done there a few years back and the mechanic got some tipex and wrote "TB Kit 65k" on the engine. But I've heard some people trying to sell/trade-in a car and not wanting to pay the €300 or so to get the belt replaced will simply write that on the engine themselves without doing the work.

Also, not sure why they would write the date of the timing belt change, surely it's the mileage eg. 110k that's more important to record. Or preferably both.

I've a toyota celica and the car dealer said the customer told him they had changed the timing belt. Luckily the Celica has a non-interference engine and if the timing belt goes, it usually doesn't ruin the engine just stops working until the belt is replaced. But I may get it done anyways as a precaution.

Saab Ed

bushy... wrote: »

The tensioners , idlers & water pump should have been done when the belt was done , bit unlikely some other fault took it out ?

Well you see did he say " I'll do the timing belt " or did he say " the timing belt was done ". They are 2 very different things. If he told you he did it as the car was going out well then you might have some recourse but if what he ment ( and I susspect this is what he ment ) was that at some stage in the not to distant past the timing belt was done ...well its just a salesmans way with words.

An oil leak onto the belt , a seized pulley, a faulty replacement part , any of these things can cause timing belt failure.

Darragh29

seasam wrote: »

The OP said that it's written on the engine that it was changed in November He bought a car for 2,000 with 1 month warranty and 5 months later the timing belt goes why should the dealer have to do anything for him ?

OP nothing against you sorry to hear the trouble you are having

Just because someone puts tip-ex on the timing belt cover to say that the belt has been changed, this doesn't necessarily mean that the timing belt was replaced, or more importantly, was replaced in accordance with the manufacturers recommendations. Notwithstanding the fact that the car is out of warranty, the OP is covered under the 1980 Sale of Goods & Supply of Services Act in relation to this purchase. If the timing belt was not changed as was stated, then the seller has a problem under section 45 of the act which deals with misrepresentation:

45.—(1) Where a person has entered into a contract after a misrepresentation has been made to him by another party thereto and as a result thereof he has suffered loss, then, if the person making the misrepresentation would be liable to damages in respect thereof had the misrepresentation been made fraudulently, that person shall be so liable notwithstanding that the misrepresentation was not made fraudulently, unless he proves that he had reasonable ground to believe and did believe up to the time the contract was made that the facts represented were true.
[GA]

(2) Where a person has entered into a contract after a misrepresentation has been made to him otherwise than fraudulently, and he would be entitled, by reason of the misrepresentation, to rescind the contract, then, if it is claimed in any proceedings arising out of the contract that the contract ought to be or has been rescinded, the court may declare the contract subsisting and award damages in lieu of rescission, if of opinion that it would be equitable to do so, having regard to the nature of the misrepresentation and the loss that would be caused by it if the contract were upheld, as well as to the loss that rescission would cause to the other party.
[GA]

(3) Damages may be awarded against a person under subsection (2) whether or not he is liable to damages under subsection (1), but where he is so liable any award under subsection (2) shall be taken into account in assessing his liability under subsection (1).

If the timing belt was changed but not changed correctly, then the seller has a problem under the heading of "merchantable quality" in relation to the same act, and also a problem again under misrepresentation if the task was not carried out as per the manufacturers recommendations (for example not changing the tensioner assembly or the water pump as recommended by the manufacturer).

The problem here I suspect is that the belt was not actually changed. What could have happened is that the "belt" was changed but the water pump bearings collapsed or the timing belt tensioner bearings collapsed and this has caused the problem. Again, if the manufacturer recommends that the full timing belt tensioner assembly is replaced at a scheduled interval along with the water pump and these recommendations were not followed, we are back to the same place: misrepresentation.

What you need to do OP is establish for a fact, what caused the timing belt to snap, (or come loose). You can't really act until you have the facts, apart from writing to the seller and telling them that you are gathering the facts of what happened and you will take legal action if misrepresentations have been made to you. Sometimes this is enough to get the matter resolved to your sastisfaction, depending on the outlet you are dealing with.

seasam

Anan1 wrote: »

If the belt was changed in November then it isn't.;)

Do you think the garage just wrote on the engine that it was done I'd imagine that can be easily traced back

I'm with Saab Ed on this one

Saab Ed

Darragh29 wrote: »

Just because someone puts tip-ex on the timing belt cover to say that the belt has been changed, this doesn't necessarily mean that the timing belt was replaced. Notwithstanding the fact that the car is out of warranty, the OP is covered under the 1980 Sale of Goods & Supply of Services Act in relation to this purchase. If the timing belt was not changed as was stated, then the seller has a problem under section 45 of the act which deals with misrepresentation:

45.—(1) Where a person has entered into a contract after a misrepresentation has been made to him by another party thereto and as a result thereof he has suffered loss, then, if the person making the misrepresentation would be liable to damages in respect thereof had the misrepresentation been made fraudulently, that person shall be so liable notwithstanding that the misrepresentation was not made fraudulently, unless he proves that he had reasonable ground to believe and did believe up to the time the contract was made that the facts represented were true.
[GA]

(2) Where a person has entered into a contract after a misrepresentation has been made to him otherwise than fraudulently, and he would be entitled, by reason of the misrepresentation, to rescind the contract, then, if it is claimed in any proceedings arising out of the contract that the contract ought to be or has been rescinded, the court may declare the contract subsisting and award damages in lieu of rescission, if of opinion that it would be equitable to do so, having regard to the nature of the misrepresentation and the loss that would be caused by it if the contract were upheld, as well as to the loss that rescission would cause to the other party.
[GA]

(3) Damages may be awarded against a person under subsection (2) whether or not he is liable to damages under subsection (1), but where he is so liable any award under subsection (2) shall be taken into account in assessing his liability under subsection (1).

If the timing belt was changed but not changed correctly, then the seller has a problem under the heading of "merchantable quality" in relation to the same act.

The problem here I suspect is that the belt was not actually changed. What could have happened is that the "belt" was changed but the water pump bearings collapsed or the timing belt tensioner bearings collapsed and this has caused the problem. Again, if the manufacturer recommends that the full timing belt tensioner assembly is replaced at a scheduled interval along with the water pump and these recommendations were not followed, we are back to the same place: misrepresentation.

A 5 grand legal bill for a 2 grand car. You're probably completly right but is there really any point?

bushy...

Saab Ed wrote: »

An oil leak onto the belt , a seized pulley, a faulty replacement part , any of these things can cause timing belt failure.

Exactly my point ..... if any of those CAUSED the failure of the belt , the mechanic who stripped it down this time would've/should've seen it and would more than likely have told the OP the root cause of the failure.

Anan1

seasam wrote: »

Do you think the garage just wrote on the engine that it was done I'd imagine that can be easily traced back

I'm with Saab Ed on this one

The garage that sold the car to the OP never claimed to have done the TB themselves, they said that it had been done before they got the car. This is where it gets messy.

Saab Ed

bushy... wrote: »

Exactly my point ..... if any of those CAUSED the failure of the belt , the mechanic who stripped it down this time would've/should've seen it and would more than likely have told the OP the root cause of the failure.

sorry just noticed I missed one post......dont think it changes anything though

seasam

Anan1 wrote: »

The garage that sold the car to the OP never claimed to have done the TB themselves, they said that it had been done before they got the car. This is where it gets messy.

Fair enough but if it was done they should be able to trace it back

Darragh29

Saab Ed wrote: »

A 5 grand legal bill for a 2 grand car. You're probably completly right but is there really any point?

The OP is not exposed to $$$ on this one, the small claims court costs 15 Euro I think.

I'm not out to hang a garage, but these things usually happen because people take shortcuts and stick on a timing belt and don't bother with the water pump or tensioner. If the job was done right, then there is no reason on earth why a timing belt would snap after 5 months. It probably hasn't snapped at all, the water pump bearings have probably collapsed and this is the cause of the problem. Again, someone is going to have to have a look in there are see what the problem is, is it a knackered water pump, tensioner bearing, etc, etc...

powert

At this stage I think my best course of action is to get the garage to tell me where the timing belt was changed and then have it accessed and take it from there.

Thanks again for all you help, I usually wouldn't chase this so hard but it's a recession and new baby on the way too.

Darragh29

powert wrote: »

At this stage I think my best course of action is to get the garage to tell me where the timing belt was changed and then have it accessed and take it from there.

Thanks again for all you help, I usually wouldn't chase this so hard but it's a recession and new baby on the way too.

If I was you, I'd get independent advice and then decide what to do. I know I usually say here if there is a problem, always bring the car back to where you got it but in these type of cases, where you're getting into 4 digit figures and a dispute with regard to liability, you're better off getting independent advice, especially where the seller is trying to fob you off.

martinr5232

If the timing belt was replaced properly there is no reason for it to break I have replaced hundreds of these belts and never seen one fail in that short a time unless a faulty component.

But That would be a long shot if all pulleys and water pump were replaced.

One thing that may have happened is a camshaft seized in the head due to lack of oil feed i have seen this happen a few times due to oil not being changed regularly.

If it is a case the timing belt failed or a pulley collapsed someone has to take responsibility for it whether it is the dealer the mechanic who fitted it or the manufacturer of the timing belt kit /water pump.

Just a question for the people here who say its the OPs problem if you got a timing belt replaced and it broke five months later would you lot just let it go and pay out over a thousand euro to have your car repaired?

Or would you be going to a soliciter?

maidhc

Darragh29 wrote: »

Don't forget the Small Claims Court is available to you...

This is the only realistic option. An assessor is going to want €350 to give a report, and a solicitor will tell you your chances of success are poor.

Darragh29

These things often don't go to court. 9/10 times, a dealer will say to a customer, "not our problem" and the customer will end up ultimately accepting that as the outcome. 1/10 times, the customer will pursue the matter in writing and threaten to go down the legal route.

If you want to get satisfaction these days, you have to push for it and rattle people. It's a sad sign of the times we live in.

martinr5232

Totaly agree no dealer is going to want there name coming up in the small claims court whether they are right or wrong in this day and age.

RLJ

powert wrote: »

Hi,

Thanks for all the replies. My mechanic told me yesterday (closed today) that the belt just snapped and the head is damaged and that it's written on the engine that the belt was replaced in Nov. The car had 110k on the clock when we bought it and I'm not sure of the mileage now but it's less than 10k extra.

Is it worth going to the expense of a solicitor, I've been quoted 1100 to have it fixed.

you may be able to use the small claims court
see below
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/justice/courts-system/small_claims_court