Why did God create humans in addition to angels?

kelly1

*** No thread hijackers/trolls/derailers please!!! ***

Folks, does anyone have any insights into why humans were created instead of being angels in heaven? i.e. Why aren't we all angels?

What prompted me to ask this is that I read last night in the Revelations of Anne Catherine Emmerich that humans were created to fill the vacancies left by the fallen angels. The angels were created very beautiful by God and some of them became selfish and fell in love with their own beauty and did not give God His due worship and praise.

It seems that we humans are likewise being tested in the sense that we are asked by God to have faith in Him because we can't see Him. We have the choice, just like the angels, to either love ourselves or love God. We can go our own selfish ways and do our will or we can strive to do God's will.

In summary, why are we here on earth as humans and not in heaven as angels?

God bless,
Noel.

Seaneh

kelly1 wrote: »

*** No thread hijackers/trolls/derailers please!!! ***

Folks, does anyone have any insights into why humans were created instead of being angels in heaven? i.e. Why aren't we all angels?

What prompted me to ask this is that I read last night in the Revelations of Anne Catherine Emmerich that humans were created to fill the vacancies left by the fallen angels. The angels were created very beautiful by God and some of them became selfish and fell in love with their own beauty and did not give God His due worship and praise.

It seems that we humans are likewise being tested in the sense that we are asked by God to have faith in Him because we can't see Him. We have the choice, just like the angels, to either love ourselves or love God. We can go our own selfish ways and do our will or we can strive to do God's will.

In summary, why are we here on earth as humans and not in heaven as angels?

God bless,
Noel.

Stick [christians only] tags on the thread tittle and Athiests are olliged to leave this thread alone

JimiTime

kelly1 wrote: »

*** No thread hijackers/trolls/derailers please!!! ***

Folks, does anyone have any insights into why humans were created instead of being angels in heaven? i.e. Why aren't we all angels?

What prompted me to ask this is that I read last night in the Revelations of Anne Catherine Emmerich that humans were created to fill the vacancies left by the fallen angels. The angels were created very beautiful by God and some of them became selfish and fell in love with their own beauty and did not give God His due worship and praise.

It seems that we humans are likewise being tested in the sense that we are asked by God to have faith in Him because we can't see Him. We have the choice, just like the angels, to either love ourselves or love God. We can go our own selfish ways and do our will or we can strive to do God's will.

In summary, why are we here on earth as humans and not in heaven as angels?

God bless,
Noel.

I think the problem here is maybe an assumption that heaven is a promotion of sorts? That the angels have it good and we have it bad. We all want Gods company, and to be ruled by Christ, but both the earth and heaven has been promised these things. Personally, I love earth, and due to the fact I don't really know anything about heaven, I'd love to stay here on earth. However, what I look forward to, is Christs government. Be it heaven or earth, the kingdom is gonna be great.

kelly1

JimiTime wrote: »

I think the problem here is maybe an assumption that heaven is a promotion of sorts? That the angels have it good and we have it bad. We all want Gods company, and to be ruled by Christ, but both the earth and heaven has been promised these things. Personally, I love earth, and due to the fact I don't really know anything about heaven, I'd love to stay here on earth.

Good for you Jimi, but lots of people struggle through life with little hope and some want to end it all. Lots of drug addicts for instance exist rather than live and they just want to end the pain. Doesn't the bible say somewhere that mans life on earth is tribulation? Most of us have lots of ups and downs, stressed, complications, heart-ache. I wouldn't want to live in this world forever! Heaven gives me hope of a reward when the battle is over.

JimiTime

kelly1 wrote: »

Good for you Jimi, but lots of people struggle through life with little hope

Well if one has the good news of the Kingdom, then they certainly have hope. Take a look at the thread on christians in China. Thats one heck of a struggle, but they certainly have hope. That hope is not in a 'place', but in a person.

Lots of drug addicts for instance exist rather than live and they just want to end the pain.

And? Are you saying that because suffering exists, we should just want to die and go to heaven? Certainly, we live in a world that has rebelled. A fallen world. However, we have hope and faith in God and his promise of a kingdom. This hope is there for the drug addicts, aids sufferers etc etc. Certainly there are many who suffer, but they certainly have hope, if they accept Christ.

Most of us have lots of ups and downs, stressed, complications, heart-ache. I wouldn't want to live in this world forever!

I never said this world. I said earth. If we were made new, and the ruler of this world was Christ then all the negatives you described above would be no more. 'Look, I am making things new.'

Heaven gives me hope of a reward when the battle is over.

Firstly, what battle do you mean? Secondly, Why does it have to be this notion of angelic existance in heaven? If Christ has promised eternal life under his govenment, don't you think you'd be happy? From a biblical POV, we know quite little about the ins and outs of Christs promised kingdom. We have hope and faith though, that its going to be great as our creator knows us best, and his governance will be perfect.

kelly1

JimiTime wrote: »

And? Are you saying that because suffering exists, we should just want to die and go to heaven?

Of course not. I'm trying to understand why we live on earth, with physical bodies instead of being angels in heaven. Why do we need a physical body or planet earth? i.e. why wasn't it enough for God to create angels alone and no humans?

JimiTime wrote: »

I never said this world. I said earth. If we were made new, and the ruler of this world was Christ then all the negatives you described above would be no more. 'Look, I am making things new.'

Fine but the thing is that right now we don't live in a perfect world. We live in a broken world which will someday be fixed when Christ takes full command.

JimiTime wrote: »

Firstly, what battle do you mean?

I mean the battle between good and evil. In order to do God's will we must struggle constantly against the temptations suggested by the devil, the world and the flesh. It's a constant fight trying to avoid sin and live virtuously (for me anyway).

markfla

.........meanwhile the rest of the world is in the 21st century

claiva

Personally I believe in the existence of God.
But, I also believe that the Church has twisted and made up rules as time has gone by in order to keep mankind afraid.
People who are afraid of something usually do what they are told. This is what the Church wanted......but now their grip has been loosened also.

Now it's the Governments turn to reap the rewards of the people who are living in fear.

Try to live your life helping others and by doing what is morally right. When your time comes if you have been a good person you will ascend into Heaven - if such a place exists.

It's as simple as that for me. I wouldn't bother disecting and trying to understand what has been written because it cannot be taken as the truth.

JimiTime

kelly1 wrote: »

Of course not. I'm trying to understand why we live on earth, with physical bodies instead of being angels in heaven.

Its a quetion that I think is unanswerable with current knowledge. Basically, 'Why did god create us?'. The thing is, you can ask the ame question of all his creation. 'Why did he create angels?' etc. Again, you 'seem' to be thinking of being human as the booby prize. that our existance is just one big trial until the promotion to angel or something?

Why do we need a physical body or planet earth? i.e. why wasn't it enough for God to create angels alone and no humans?

Again, why did he create anything?

Fine but the thing is that right now we don't live in a perfect world. We live in a broken world which will someday be fixed when Christ takes full command.

So whats the problem? Impatience? Yes it'd be great if Armageddon was in our lifetime, but God has appointed the day and the hour, and I trust his widom.

I mean the battle between good and evil. In order to do God's will we must struggle constantly against the temptations suggested by the devil, the world and the flesh. It's a constant fight trying to avoid sin and live virtuously (for me anyway).

We all have our crosses to bare, some alot more than others. Forgive me for my assumption, but it sounds like you are feeling very guilty? Guilt is only a good thing when it motivates us to correct ourselves. All too often though, its a stick we beat ourselves with. This demotivates us, and brings us down. Remember, its faith that justifies us. No man has lived the law but Jesus, and by our faith in him are we justified. Yes, we honestly seek to correct ourselves and do his work, but when we fall short, i.e. every day, we know the bounty of his mercy and have hope and faith in his promises.

CerebralCortex

markfla wrote: »

.........meanwhile the rest of the world is in the 21st century

claiva wrote: »

Personally I believe in the existence of God.
But, I also believe that the Church has twisted and made up rules as time has gone by in order to keep mankind afraid.
People who are afraid of something usually do what they are told. This is what the Church wanted......but now their grip has been loosened also.

Now it's the Governments turn to reap the rewards of the people who are living in fear.

Try to live your life helping others and by doing what is morally right. When your time comes if you have been a good person you will ascend into Heaven - if such a place exists.

It's as simple as that for me. I wouldn't bother disecting and trying to understand what has been written because it cannot be taken as the truth.

I remember many moons ago when I was this fresh

kelly1

JimiTime wrote: »

Its a quetion that I think is unanswerable with current knowledge.

Thanks, you've given me your answer.

JimiTime

kelly1 wrote: »

Thanks, you've given me your answer.

Maybe I'm taking you up wrong, but are you annoyed with something I wrote?

Goduznt Xzst

kelly1, perhaps you can detail why you think being an angel is somehow better than being a human?

What is your understanding of Genesis chapter 6?

claiva

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I remember many moons ago when I was this fresh

Explain ?

kelly1

JimiTime wrote: »

Maybe I'm taking you up wrong, but are you annoyed with something I wrote?

Slightly I must admit. I thought your posts sounded argumentative and a bit contrary. I would have thought you'd agree that Heaven will be an improvement upon life on earth. Clearly this life is only a pilgrimage to our final end.

kelly1

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

kelly1, perhaps you can detail why you think being an angel is somehow better than being a human?

Mainly because they already enjoy the happiness of the vision of God without having to go through the tribulations of life on earth. Ultimately I think humans might actually surpass the angels not in their nature but because of the grace/divine life given to us when you do reach the promised land. Since the angels don't have to struggle in a physical body as we do, there must be some advantage that we can expect, I would have thought.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

What is your understanding of Genesis chapter 6?

Why do you ask? I'm not sure how to take it. I would have thought science had ruled out the story of the flood and ark as being an historical fact.

AtomicHorror

markfla wrote: »

.........meanwhile the rest of the world is in the 21st century

We don't have any particular "right" to preach atheism on this forum. We're granted that as a privilege. And that's one that could easily be revoked in response to this sort of terse smart-alec crap. If you want to be the only atheist in the village then at least form a decent argument, otherwise just do the rest of us unbelievers a favour and leave the Christians be when they ask nicely.

watty

Why did He create anything?
Why Angels?
Why Humans as well as Angels? I have know idea, unless Angels are a kind of MkI Intelligent being and He wanted something closer to the Animal World, as it says in Genesis:

And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him" (Genesis 2:20).

Not included were the "beasts of the earth," the "creeping things" and the "fish of the sea"
In Genesis 1:26, God gives Adam rule, dominion and authority over all animals.




Perhaps unanswerable questions. Also possibily ones you might forget if you wherever in a situation where there was possibility of an authorative answer.

Obviously questions that have almost no meaning or value for Atheists or for religions or people of Faith that don't believe in Angels.

I'd presume that Angels are meant in the main Judeo-Christian orthodox sense rather in new Age Crystal & Stuff sense or in Islamic interpretation.

I don't thing Buddhists, Jain, Hindu, Sikh and others believe in Angels in the Biblical sense.

kelly1

watty wrote: »

I'd presume that Angels are meant in the main Judeo-Christian orthodox sense rather in new Age Crystal & Stuff sense or in Islamic interpretation.

Yes, powerful spiritual beings (without bodies) and not dainty ladies with wings.

Overblood

kelly1 wrote: »

Mainly because they already enjoy the happiness of the vision of God without having to go through the tribulations of life on earth. Ultimately I think humans might actually surpass the angels not in their nature but because of the grace/divine life given to us when you do reach the promised land. Since the angels don't have to struggle in a physical body as we do, there must be some advantage that we can expect, I would have thought.

I'm picking up some negativity towards being human. Is my spidey sense correct? Why not enjoy the physical manifestation of your soul?

kelly1

Overblood wrote: »

I'm picking up some negativity towards being human. Is my spidey sense correct?

No, I'm only questioning why humans are needed in addition to angels. God created angels in heaven and some disobeyed him and were cast into hell. Why the need for a new species of creature (i.e. humans)?

Overblood wrote: »

Why not enjoy the physical manifestation of your soul?

How does the soul manifest itself physically?

Phototoxin

Erm because angels have no free will and so are basically automatons whereas humans have free will and hence can love something.

Lovethinking

kelly1 wrote: »

*** No thread hijackers/trolls/derailers please!!! ***

Folks, does anyone have any insights into why humans were created instead of being angels in heaven? i.e. Why aren't we all angels?

What prompted me to ask this is that I read last night in the Revelations of Anne Catherine Emmerich that humans were created to fill the vacancies left by the fallen angels. The angels were created very beautiful by God and some of them became selfish and fell in love with their own beauty and did not give God His due worship and praise.

It seems that we humans are likewise being tested in the sense that we are asked by God to have faith in Him because we can't see Him. We have the choice, just like the angels, to either love ourselves or love God. We can go our own selfish ways and do our will or we can strive to do God's will.

In summary, why are we here on earth as humans and not in heaven as angels?

God bless,
Noel.

Perhaps the answer is simply "Variety" just like he created a vast variety of animals, plants, stars etc...
Nevertheless, that's only a guess. I am not aware of enough facts to draw any concrete conclusions.
I personally love being human on earth ... I imagine that with Jesus as the King and Judge over all the earth in the future ("Let your kingdom come, as in heaven also upon the earth), the joys of life will be outstandingly tasty... free of the sourness of suffering, the bitterness of hatred and pukeworthy apathy. (I am tempted to continue the taste analogy... but I will spare ye)
I would also be willing to bet that we humans have been designed to feel LOVE just as much as angels (we were made in God's image)... and is that not the main thing?

kelly1

Phototoxin wrote: »

Erm because angels have no free will and so are basically automatons whereas humans have free will and hence can love something.

Maybe you haven't heard about the fallen angels who rebelled against God and were thrown out of heaven?

Seaneh

Phototoxin wrote: »

Erm because angels have no free will and so are basically automatons whereas humans have free will and hence can love something.

Actually there is a passage in the bible that describes 3 distinct sets of angels, those who follow god, those who follow satan (fallen angels) and who are undecided.

Can't think of the scripture offhand but I can assure you you're belife on this matter is wrong.

kelly1

Christians, I was hoping for a more lively discussion on this topic. Is that ye're not interested in why humans were created or ye don't know? Or is it because I is Catholic (ala Ali G).

JimiTime

kelly1 wrote: »

Christians, I was hoping for a more lively discussion on this topic. Is that ye're not interested in why humans were created or ye don't know? Or is it because I is Catholic (ala Ali G).

For my part, I did try and engage you, but you thought I was starting an arguement So I've left you be.

conlonbmw

kelly1 wrote: »

Christians, I was hoping for a more lively discussion on this topic. Is that ye're not interested in why humans were created or ye don't know? Or is it because I is Catholic (ala Ali G).

No, its because you are all insane.

I cannot believe the rubbish you lot are spouting here.

Humans have evolved from single cell organisms over 1-2 billion of years.
Religon is around 6,000 years give or take and was invented by man after stemming from superstition also invented by man.

How can something man made make you all so stupid.

I challenge everyone in this forum to read critically about your beliefs and try and evaluate them as a sane and logical person would do with evidence.

If after this you still want to believe then at least you have tried to understand.

TravelJunkie

kelly1 wrote: »

*** No thread hijackers/trolls/derailers please!!! ***

Folks, does anyone have any insights into why humans were created instead of being angels in heaven? i.e. Why aren't we all angels?

What prompted me to ask this is that I read last night in the Revelations of Anne Catherine Emmerich that humans were created to fill the vacancies left by the fallen angels. The angels were created very beautiful by God and some of them became selfish and fell in love with their own beauty and did not give God His due worship and praise.

It seems that we humans are likewise being tested in the sense that we are asked by God to have faith in Him because we can't see Him. We have the choice, just like the angels, to either love ourselves or love God. We can go our own selfish ways and do our will or we can strive to do God's will.

In summary, why are we here on earth as humans and not in heaven as angels?

God bless,
Noel.

It's definately the free will thing.

God created angels to love him, but we choose to love him.

However, I think this explanation might be too simplistic. We are also different to angels, being made of matter.

kelly1

JimiTime wrote: »

For my part, I did try and engage you, but you thought I was starting an arguement So I've left you be.

Jimi, the discussion is about the need for humans and angels and not heaven and earth. God created the angels first and some of them fell never to be redeemed. The God created humans and they fell but God redeemed them. Why the 2 different scenarios? Why is there a need for humans at all? That's what I'm trying to get at.

JimiTime

TravelJunkie wrote: »

It's definately the free will thing.

God created angels to love him, but we choose to love him.

Without free will there is no love though. In order to love, you need to have choice. I don't get why some are assuming that Angels are like robots Where does this idea come from?

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

*** No thread hijackers/trolls/derailers please!!! ***

Folks, does anyone have any insights into why humans were created instead of being angels in heaven? i.e. Why aren't we all angels?

Angels are tools of God, we are not. The word "Angel" itself means messenger. Angels are an extension of God's will.

We were not created to serve God, but to exist with him.

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

Angels are tools of God, we are not. The word "Angel" itself means messenger. Angels are an extension of God's will.

We were not created to serve God, but to exist with him.

I wouldn't use the word "tools", I think we're both servants of God for the benefit of creation but it's interesting that angels serve man and God while humans only serve God. Seems a bit unfair on the poor angels!

ScumLord

conlonbmw wrote: »

No, its because you are all insane.

I cannot believe the rubbish you lot are spouting here.

Humans have evolved from single cell organisms over 1-2 billion of years.
Religon is around 6,000 years give or take and was invented by man after stemming from superstition also invented by man.

How can something man made make you all so stupid.

I challenge everyone in this forum to read critically about your beliefs and try and evaluate them as a sane and logical person would do with evidence.

If after this you still want to believe then at least you have tried to understand.

Why do you need to assume the role of fundamentalist? It's somewhat understandable coming from religious nuts (real nuts, not implying all religious people are nuts). If your really atheist it shouldn't bother you as much as it obviously does.

Gingganggooley

conlonbmw wrote: »

No, its because you are all insane.

I cannot believe the rubbish you lot are spouting here.

Humans have evolved from single cell organisms over 1-2 billion of years.
Religon is around 6,000 years give or take and was invented by man after stemming from superstition also invented by man.

How can something man made make you all so stupid.

I challenge everyone in this forum to read critically about your beliefs and try and evaluate them as a sane and logical person would do with evidence.

If after this you still want to believe then at least you have tried to understand.

Logic and reason are fundamental pillars in Christian doctrine and understanding.

AtomicHorror

conlonbmw wrote: »

No, its because you are all insane.

I cannot believe the rubbish you lot are spouting here.

Humans have evolved from single cell organisms over 1-2 billion of years.
Religon is around 6,000 years give or take and was invented by man after stemming from superstition also invented by man.

How can something man made make you all so stupid.

I challenge everyone in this forum to read critically about your beliefs and try and evaluate them as a sane and logical person would do with evidence.

If after this you still want to believe then at least you have tried to understand.

How is this useful to anyone, religious or atheistic? I'm sure you find statements of faith exasperating at times, but calling a person stupid is just never going to make them willing to listen to your point of view.

watty

Some Religious/Christian/Jewish etc people have an outlook where they disbelieve all "Evolutionary Science"

Other people claim even if all the things about Evolution are true, that does not explain why things are as they are. They see no contradiction and beleive that God somehow planned it.

Other People don't believe in a "god" of any sort.

There is a wide spectrum of viewpoints in reality, not just the two polar opposites of the evangelical Atheists (Philip Pullman, Richard Dawkins) and uneducated Ultra-fundamenalist Southern Americans at the other.

The OP's question does of course have no meaning for the 100% Atheist/Materialist, so those people have nothing to contribute. The most faith filled Christian may sometimes think "maybe there is no god", so it's not progressing the discussion to say people that believe in existence of God and his Angels are Stupid. That might be a discussion for another thread.

postcynical

kelly1 wrote: »

Christians, I was hoping for a more lively discussion on this topic. Is that ye're not interested in why humans were created or ye don't know? Or is it because I is Catholic (ala Ali G).

Hi Kelly1. For me it's I don't know! I'm pretty sure humans were created (or at least came into being) and God only knows why. I'm not too sure what angels are though. I understand from reading that they are persons without bodies. I've no idea what role they play in the world. I know Catholic adults are encouraged to pray to our guardian angel, but I treat Jesus as mine.

If you're starving in a foreign country or sick or something and a good person helps you, do you understand that person to be an angel too? Someone who gave you direct witness of Christ's love on Earth? Again, I'd put these incidents down to the Holy Spirit acting through others.

The angel of the lord was often in human form in the OT off the top of my head.

The main purpose of my time here is to know and love God and I've three human pathways to know Him. My brain and spirit are pretty weak so I'm glad I've a body. It's far easier to fool your brain and your spirit. Bodies don't lie:( as the ad says.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

I wouldn't use the word "tools", I think we're both servants of God for the benefit of creation but it's interesting that angels serve man and God while humans only serve God. Seems a bit unfair on the poor angels!

Are we supposed to be servants of God?

Fanny Cradock

Wicknight wrote: »

Are we supposed to be servants of God?

I think we all have a roll to play under God. But I prefer to think of it as helping to run the family business.

starchild

hi Kelly1 , re your question

why are we here on earth as humans and not in heaven as angels,

i believe that being human is the role that we chose for ourselves in this lifetime on earth.

so the question arises why did we chose to be human, i believe it is because our spirit/soul desires to experience certain things be they happiness/sorrow/anguish/boredom/ecstasy etc etc.

Earth as a free will environment is the best place to experience anything as on earth you forget who you truly are. If you think about it logically this is essential as if you wish to experience something you must go through it fully and completely.

Once your physical body dies you return to the divine or heaven as some call it, there your experience is merged with the billions of others and it is these experiences that allows God to truly know himself/herself.

Why didnt we choose to be an angel, it may be for many reasons , you may not have wanted to, you may be one already as all things are actually happening at once. Or it may be that your soul at this time has not yet reached a place of understanding where you can operate as an angel.

Underbadger

Why did God create humans in addition to angels?


Yes both Genesis 1 ,1


In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

That includes all in both realms , angels with the almighty in heaven and humans ,Satan and fallen angels (demons) on earth

Húrin

claiva wrote: »

Try to live your life helping others and by doing what is morally right. When your time comes if you have been a good person you will ascend into Heaven - if such a place exists.

This is self-righteous. How is it different to the "fear" peddled by the church? You're saying that if we are not good enough we won't get to heaven. That's different, how?

It's all imaginary. The real God, incarnated in JEsus Christ said that faith in him was the way to heaven, not our vain attempts to be good.

Slav

kelly1 wrote: »

Folks, does anyone have any insights into why humans were created instead of being angels in heaven? i.e. Why aren't we all angels?

Great question Noel!

First of all, do you find it strange that Genesis says very little about angels? How, when and why they were created? Then, the Fall of Lucifer is supposed to be one of the most important events in history, the point where Evil came into existence in all-good universe, but still Genesis is silent about it and you'll probably be fine with the finger of one hand to count all other OT references.

Saying all that we have actually very little idea of what the angels are. Nevertheless in Christian tradition humans are clearly distinguished from angels in many aspects (how I understand it):

1. Humans are created in the image of God and in His likeness.
2. Humans are independent of God's will as they have one of their own. Indeed if angels were creatures in image of God and have free will as humans (and if we accept the story of fallen Lucifer and the third of angels) then why God does not try to save Satan and demons same as he's saving humans?
3. Humans have soul and body.
4. And finally humans are greater then angels. After all we get more as God Himself has become a human.

Christianity is very anthropocentric. Without mankind being the top of the creation the universe would be incomplete.

What prompted me to ask this is that I read last night in the Revelations of Anne Catherine Emmerich that humans were created to fill the vacancies left by the fallen angels.

For me the idea of mankind being a substitution for fallen angels is a pure speculation out of thin air brought up with no particular reason. It only brings a whole lot of questions that I doubt can be answered at all.

It seems that we humans are likewise being tested in the sense that we are asked by God to have faith in Him because we can't see Him.

It's clear from Genesis that humans did see God. If we accept that humans were created with the purpose of being tested by faith then we should conclude that the Original Sin was the God's plan which would not be acceptable as an orthodox view.

In summary, why are we here on earth as humans and not in heaven as angels?

So to summarise my view: because we are not supposed to be God's "messengers". We are far more then that.