Bret Hart Opinion (Yes, it's another one of THOSE threads so PLEASE let's play nice!)

BarneyisRight

I've been a wrestling fan for quite some time now and have never come across a defined opinion of Bret 'Hitman' Hart. As a kid I was enveloped in his matches,yet was never a fan of his (always prefered Piper,Yokozuna,Diesel,'Taker etc).The one thing though that really winds me up about him is his self belief that he is to Canada what,say,Roy Keane is to Ireland.Its this blind following that I cant stand!Anyone could tell you that what Keane did back in 2002 World Cup was wrong,he believed he was bigger than the team etc.Its the exact same that Hart did back in Montreal.I admire his work etc but reading his book and watching the DVD,he comes across like some sort of hero...in his mind!What annoys me even more is this thread was meant to be about where I could get his glasses!!!He's just one of those fugures that provokes such heat!

orestes

Bret Hart? Roy Keane? World Cup? Montreal?

No way, not a chance I'm getting invloved in this one!

*walks away from thread*

BarneyisRight

lol,but the tw figures have that opinion of themselves.Self-righteous

MrStuffins

I've met Bret, nice guy.

Also, i disagree with your take on the Roy Keane situation.

There's no real point to my post, just saying.:D

BarneyisRight

I just dont like the way in recent times wrestling fans have pushed Bret up to this immoratal stature!He comes across big headed....ANYWAY,my main point was kick ass Bret Hart glasses!!!!I tried searching but nowhere seems to have em,any ideas?!

ShawnRaven

Oh Jesus, not again!!

Ok i'm going to say this in this thread once, and am not entertaing any replies on the grounds that it gets done every four months.

- Bret signed a 20 year deal in 1996
- Bret was told by Vince less than 12 months later that he couldn't afford to pay him and wanted.
- Bret Hart had REASONABLE creative control written into his contract.
- Bret was asked to do the job in Montreal to Shawn
- Bret refused on the grounds due to a personal gripe with Shawn (doesn't matter what was said, that's the long and short of it)
- Bret was "duped" into believing that the ending was going to be a gang of the Hart Foundation and DX interrupting because he didn't want to go with the original ending.
- Bret thought he was going to get the better of his boss.
- Bret thought wrong.

Shawn still has a job, Vince is still doing great business, Bret now lives alone with his dog.
I honestly believe that Bret had just gone ahead and done the (he was going to WCW and the match was going worldwide anyway so everyone in Canada and everywhere else was going to see it), he and Vince would have gotten along a lot better for it, and Bret would probably have been back in WWE before Goldberg kicked his brains out.

But that didn't happen, and we all know the rest.
Everyone else got over it, he really should too, and even his own friends in the business have said that too.

I've met the guy, read his book and have a lot of respect for the man on a personal level, on a professional level, he's definitely not as squeaky clean as he likes to believe he is.

Fight amongst yourselves on this one guys, but the second it goes out of hand, it's getting locked.

deanodrummer

So are you looking for an opinion or just posting your own?

Roy Keane, great footballer, made a bad decision to leave although his principles were right imho.

Sorry, back on topic, I love watching Bret Hart matches. Seems to love himself a bit, but then again he is probably in the top 5 wrestlers of all time so why not? Needs to stop whining. With so many stories of Montreal and stuff I have given up caring about what happened or what HBK is really like.

Bottom line - Bret Hart was a great wrestler, one of my favourites, so I still enjoy watching his matches, and will continue to do so. I'm never gonna ask him to go for a pint so it doesn't matter to me if he whines the rest of his life.

BarneyisRight

True....still no answer to Hitman glasses though,lol!

MrStuffins

I'm no longer a Pro Wrestling fan but i was when Bret was in his hay-day.

In fairness to him and ALL wrestlers, he's gotta have that belief about him. That cockyness. I mean, look at The Rock. By the time he came along i was finised with my interest in WWE... BUT.... the guy was, IMO, a great showman and he (at least his character) was the cockiest of all the wrestlers of his day.

No idea about the shades, i always wanted to be that kid that Bret gave his shades to at ringside:cool:

deanodrummer

BTW, I would suggest ebay for the shades, but that's so obvious you probably already looked there. I had a pair in the house somewhere. Don't think I threw them out so I must check again. And they were ****, cheap things.

ShawnRaven

BarneyisRight wrote: »

True....still no answer to Hitman glasses though,lol!

You'll get an answer if someone knows it!

Bounty Hunter

Roy Keane vs Bret Hart

The Super Powers collide MK2!

ShawnRaven

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

Roy Keane vs Bret Hart

The Super Powers collide MK2!

Whoever cries the most is the winner?

Bounty Hunter

ShawnRaven wrote: »

Whoever cries the most is the winner?

*resists the urge to wite a massive rambling post about Roy Keane and post his late late youtube interview and instead fails to sleep once more*

ShawnRaven

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

*resists the urge to wite a massive rambling post about Roy Keane and post his late late youtube interview and instead fails to sleep once more*

Please don't, the last thing we need at this stage is every thread with a trail of youtube videos!

I've quit forums over that crap
(and before you get any ideas folks, think twice )

Your rambling rant sounds good though, i'd read it!

Bounty Hunter

ShawnRaven wrote: »

Your rambling rant sounds good though, i'd read it!

dont get me tempted...

have we derailed this thread so much that we wont have abother one of those threads

*hic*

ShawnRaven

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

dont get me tempted...

have we derailed this thread so much that we wont have abother one of those threads

*hic*

I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, they can't prove anything!

pingu_girl

BarneyisRight wrote: »

True....still no answer to Hitman glasses though,lol!

Ive a pair someplace in the attic at my folks place.

Fozzy

Shawn, you know what the definition of "reasonable creative control" was, don't you?

ShawnRaven

Fozzy wrote: »

Shawn, you know what the definition of "reasonable creative control" was, don't you?

Yes, i also know what "boss" is too.

bigeasyeah

I always liked Bret Hart and thought he had some of the greatest matches ever seen in WWf.He seems a sound enough guy.
I cant venture an indepth opinion of what sort of person he is.I ve seen a few documentaries on him and read and seen a few interviews but I dont think you can really know someone from that.
However I think most wrestlers will have and even need an ego.Some more than others mind:)

Dancor

Just to people saying Bret still hasnt gotten over it and about everybody else involed in Montreal moving on, Bret is the only person who came out on the bad side and worst off, the only one who was screwed and deserves to be pissed off about it, someone that gave years to the company, some of its best matches during that time. Refused to do the job once, because the other person was an asshole and refused to do the same. As for known who ''the boss'' is, you kinda give up some of that when you give your top talent ''reasonable creative control''

CMpunked

Im confused, did we not go through enough of these "Bret hart opinion" threads in the last year?

There was the pre-AWR show thread last year, the WM signing thread, the aftermath of the AWR tour, then the book signing a few weeks ago?


Surely everyone and anyone that HAD an opinion has voiced it by now and we have gone well over the quota of bret hart appreciation threads.


IMO:
Bret had a job to do, he shoulda just submitted to his work and accepted it.
If im in work and im asked to do something and action is taken against me just because i dont "get on" with someone, i should expect to get some form of discipline.
He got what he asked for.

Whatever else, personal issues outside of wrestling like living alone or how many people he has lost i am not even going to pass comment on, im not going to subject myself to analyzing it like some sort of certified psychiatrist.



[/rant]



Now...
Check ebay, im sure with the amount of them bought through the heyday you can pick one up somewhere.
http://cgi.ebay.ie/BRET-HART-Replica-Polarized-Sunglasses-New-Brett_W0QQitemZ230341376883QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_SM_Fan_Shop?hash=item230341376883&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177

Here you go.

pingu_girl

Sound for not banning SR , It was more of a joke than anything honestly chances of me going near that dangerous, dirty, dusty attic would be slim to none.

Even though I thought I was sitting on a goldmine for the future when I put the stuff up there about 10 years ago loads of figures, magazines and merchandise from the early 90's, safe to say it all worth nothing and will still be in another 10 years. Arra Oh Well! :pac:

JP Liz

Bret "Hitman" Hart - The Best There Is, The Best There Was, The Best There Ever Will Be!

Roy Keane - Legend!

ShawnRaven

JP Liz wrote: »

Roy Keane - Legend!

Oh god, you're from Cork aren't you? :P

Cactus Col

Reading Bret Hart's autobiography at the moment. He was certainly a great worker. However, he seems to have the same victim mentality that most of the Hart family (at least according to his book) suffer from. Despite trying to screw any girl that wonders within half a mile of him, he blames his wife for his marriage problems, justifying it by saying he at least didn't do drugs too much.

If he wasn't getting pushed to the stars he was being unfairly held back.

Fozzy

ShawnRaven wrote: »

Yes, i also know what "boss" is too.

You also know what "contract" is? :pac:

The reasonable creative control meant that nothing could be done with Bret unless both Bret and Vince agreed on it. Vince could veto anything involving Bret (just as he could with everyone else) and Bret could veto anything involving him. Vince offered him the contract and he's the one who went back on it. Bret was in his right to say no to anything that he wanted to because Vince gave him that right

ShawnRaven

Fozzy wrote: »

You also know what "contract" is? :pac:

The reasonable creative control meant that nothing could be done with Bret unless both Bret and Vince agreed on it. Vince could veto anything involving Bret (just as he could with everyone else) and Bret could veto anything involving him. Vince offered him the contract and he's the one who went back on it. Bret was in his right to say no to anything that he wanted to because Vince gave him that right

Clearly Vince didn't agree on it and let Bret know several times he wanted the belt off him at the PPV. They were going back and forth until the day of the PPV when they agreed on the run-in.

Yes, Vince broke his end of the deal too, but you can't say his hand wasn't forced.

flahavaj

Ah lads.

ShawnRaven

flahavaj wrote: »

Ah lads.

Was that really necessary?

DM_7

Okay
Bret was WWF champ. Bret for many reasons was leaving for WCW. Bret couldn't bring the title with him. But he wouldn't lose to a certain guy. Vince then found a way of taking the title. Seems fair enough to me.

Also gave us something to talk about for years... thanks vince.

flahavaj

ShawnRaven wrote: »

Was that really necessary?

I just meant its an argument thats been done to death.

ShawnRaven

flahavaj wrote: »

I just meant its an argument thats been done to death.

I hear that, dude. But to be fair, you knew that before you clicked on the thread.

Dancor

DM-ICE wrote: »

Okay
Bret was WWF champ. Bret for many reasons was leaving for WCW. Bret couldn't bring the title with him. But he wouldn't lose to a certain guy. Vince then found a way of taking the title. Seems fair enough to me.

Also gave us something to talk about for years... thanks vince.

But Bret would have dropped it the next night on RAW, Him losing in Canada would do nothing for anyone and RAW would have a bigger audiance the next night so Michaels could have got it then.

Did Vince really think Bret was such an untrustworthy person that he would show up on Nitro with the belt (another bin moment?) or leave without dropping it and turn up in WCW as the man who didnt loose the WWF title?

CMpunked

dancor wrote: »

Did Vince really think Bret was such an untrustworthy person that he would show up on Nitro with the belt (another bin moment?) or leave without dropping it and turn up in WCW as the man who didnt loose the WWF title?

Its a known fact that vince is an incredibly insecure person so that idea wouldnt be too far fetched.

ShawnRaven

C-B-G wrote: »

Its a known fact that vince is an incredibly insecure person so that idea wouldnt be too far fetched.

Not sure about him being insecure, but he was incredibly paranoid during the Monday Night Wars. The sad thing was, WCW wasn't even that great on Monday nights around the time Vince pulled the plug on Bret's contract. People just started tuning into WCW for shock value to see what was going to happen next, because storylines weren't progressing that much an the actual wrestling, save for the cruiserweight division was sub par.

I'm not so sure if Vince or Bret for that matter even paid attention to WCW's programming back then, they should have been though, hindsight is always 20/20, but had Vince realised what a joke WCW was becoming, and Bret known exactly what he was walking into, it does put things into somewhat a different perspective.

CMpunked

ShawnRaven wrote: »

I'm not so sure if Vince or Bret for that matter even paid attention to WCW's programming back then, they should have been though, hindsight is always 20/20, but had Vince realised what a joke WCW was becoming, and Bret known exactly what he was walking into, it does put things into somewhat a different perspective.

Kinda like he is now a days with TNA, he wouldnt even see them as competition or care all that much if someone jumps ship.

ShawnRaven

C-B-G wrote: »

Kinda like he is now a days with TNA, he wouldnt even see them as competition or care all that much if someone jumps ship.

TNA isn't anywhere near the same scale as WCW was. Dixie Carter isn't intentionally trying to put Vince out of business (much as it pains me to say it, i don't think she'd have a clue where to start), whereas Bischoff and Turner were.

Mr.Nice Guy

ShawnRaven wrote: »

Oh Jesus, not again!!

Ok i'm going to say this in this thread once, and am not entertaing any replies on the grounds that it gets done every four months.

- Bret signed a 20 year deal in 1996
- Bret was told by Vince less than 12 months later that he couldn't afford to pay him and wanted.
- Bret Hart had REASONABLE creative control written into his contract.
- Bret was asked to do the job in Montreal to Shawn
- Bret refused on the grounds due to a personal gripe with Shawn (doesn't matter what was said, that's the long and short of it)
- Bret was "duped" into believing that the ending was going to be a gang of the Hart Foundation and DX interrupting because he didn't want to go with the original ending.
- Bret thought he was going to get the better of his boss.
- Bret thought wrong.

This is very one-sided. Let's balance this up a bit...

- Bret had given many years of diligent service to WWE. Vince wanted him signed to a long-term contract, and agreed to the 'reasonable creative control' clause.
- Bret put over Shawn Michaels clean at Wrestlemania 12.
- Michaels refused to return the favour and put Bret over a year later instead forfeiting the title and claiming he had 'lost his smile'.
- Vince urges Bret to accept WCW's offer on the grounds he can no longer afford him.
- Bret reluctantly agrees to this and makes it clear to Vince he would like his legacy in WWE to be respected. Vince assures Bret this will be the case.
- Bret is told he must put over Michaels - the guy who had been disrespecting Bret's country - in Montreal on his way out of the company.
- Bret refuses on the grounds that Michaels had point-blank refused to put him over and since he felt this would destroy his credibility in his own country ahead of his WCW move.
- Shawn and Hunter get inside Vince's ear and urge him to just take the belt off Bret at Survivor Series.
- A DQ ending at Survivor Series is agreed between Bret and Vince which Vince dishonours as Bret is screwed out of the Title.
- There is uproar in the locker room as Foley quits over it and Rick Rude ends up ultimately heading to WCW.

Remind me then why Bret is the bad guy in this situation?

Because the way I see it if I had been in his shoes I would have acted exactly the same way. Shawn acts like a dick towards Bret and lies about his knowledge of the incident for years afterwards and yet Bret is the one who must reach out to Shawn? Don't think so mate.

If Shawn is the reborn Christian he claims to be then he should acknowledge his poor behaviour, ask for forgiveness and then try and put the issue to bed, rather than what he has done since which is to make angles out of the incident.

DM_7

dancor wrote: »

But Bret would have dropped it the next night on RAW, Him losing in Canada would do nothing for anyone and RAW would have a bigger audiance the next night so Michaels could have got it then.

It did something for us all. It sowed the seeds for Mr McMahon. That gave us a hell of a lot

Fozzy

DM-ICE wrote: »

It did something for us all. It sowed the seeds for Mr McMahon. That gave us a hell of a lot

Vince had already been playing that exact character before that, in Memphis

DM_7

Fozzy wrote: »

Vince had already been playing that exact character before that, in Memphis

For me the hate wasn't there before montreal.

Fozzy

DM-ICE wrote: »

For me the hate wasn't there before montreal.

I didn't start watching the WWF again until a good few months after all this, but did the average fan know that Vince was behind the screwing of Bret? I'm not really sure, but if they did, how would it have helped? The American fans didn't like Bret, so Vince would be the face in their eyes

DM_7

Fozzy wrote: »

I didn't start watching the WWF again until a good few months after all this, but did the average fan know that Vince was behind the screwing of Bret? I'm not really sure, but if they did, how would it have helped? The American fans didn't like Bret, so Vince would be the face in their eyes

As i said it sowed the seeds. Fans that were not there didn't know what happened so it created extra interest. Then over time people found out. During this time and later on, the screen charachter continued screwing people of of titles, even up to the last few years with lashley.

So for me it helped create the hate towards the mr mcmahin charachter for average fans and real hate for mcmahon from internet fans. This hate was repeatedly tapped into over the years in many storylines.

Bubs101

Just because HBK isn't a dick now does not mean he was innocent then. Knowing the people involved I'm far more likely to believe Bret and Foley than old Micheals, HHH and Vince

dloob

DM-ICE wrote: »

As i said it sowed the seeds. Fans that were not there didn't know what happened so it created extra interest. Then over time people found out. During this time and later on, the screen charachter continued screwing people of of titles, even up to the last few years with lashley.

So for me it helped create the hate towards the mr mcmahin charachter for average fans and real hate for mcmahon from internet fans. This hate was repeatedly tapped into over the years in many storylines.

Wasn't there the infamous "Bret screwed Bret" interview afterwards, which was really the launch of the McMahon character.

I miss his brother

DM_7

dloob wrote: »

Wasn't there the infamous "Bret screwed Bret" interview afterwards, which was really the launch of the McMahon character.

I miss his brother

I kind of forgot bout that kayfabe break.

I miss owen also. Owen v Bret is one of my fave feuds ever.

ShawnRaven

Bubs101 wrote: »

Just because HBK isn't a dick now does not mean he was innocent then. Knowing the people involved I'm far more likely to believe Bret and Foley than old Micheals, HHH and Vince

Keeping HHH, Foley and Vince and judging by both shoot interviews, said by both guys where WWE's cameras weren't involved.

- The real heat began when Michaels forfeited the belt on RAW.
- Shawn claims his knee really was beat up, but didn't know until AFTER he dropped the belt and got the second opinion that it wasn't as bad as it seemed, but he was legit concerned that Bret would bang up his knee, either accidentally or intentionally.
- Bret on the other hand claims that Shawn had no intention of dropping it, and had a list of people he'd work with in a title program before he even won the belt.
- Shawn returned a couple of months later and after being teamed with Austin, began to work with Bret again. In some of the promos, Shawn claims Bret Okayed everything, the promos on taking shots at his family.
- Bret denies this, claiming he never okayed it, especially the Sunny Days comment.
- Shawn claims he tried to straighten it out with Bret several times to see where the communication went wrong, but Bret didn't want to know for weeks. Bret then wanted to talk about it and Shawn told him to piss off for taking so long to do so (sound familiar here?), and that's when backstage fight took place where Bret tore a clump of Shawn's hair out.

It really gets ugly from there, cos now that Shawn is back full time, and has gone from tweener to full time heel, and Bret's concerned that he's gonna lose all his heel heat, which he did, but that's more down to Vince's okaying the booking, booking Shawn as a stronger heel, leaving Bret in the cold because he turned on all the US fans, and now there's one top heel too many and Vince is going with Shawn and the DX direction.

Then Vince drops the bombshell on Bret about the contract, and advises him to take the deal in WCW, and you know how the rest of it goes from there.

So to be fair, neither Bret or Shawn were saints in the buildup to the screwjob here. But Shawn has admitted he was a complete dick, and most of us with some common sense know this as well. Shawn however, has moved on. In Bret's defense, i think he would like to move on, but for whatever reason, he feels the need to keep sh*tting on Shawn at every given opportunity, and he's losing respect from his peers as a result.

Mending this fence is going to take both of them. It's that simple. One person isn't going to fix this alone.

Personally speaking, i can't see it ever being resolved. And when one of them kicks the bucket, the debate will still continue, with the topics starting with "What If".

ShawnRaven

Fozzy wrote: »

I didn't start watching the WWF again until a good few months after all this, but did the average fan know that Vince was behind the screwing of Bret? I'm not really sure, but if they did, how would it have helped? The American fans didn't like Bret, so Vince would be the face in their eyes

I was watching around that time, and trust me, it was a bombshell. I was also a longtime reader of the rec.sport.pro-wrestling group on usenet at the time too. More people knew that Vince was behind it at the end of the day, except for those who just hated Shawn for being who Shawn was then anyway.

But you are right in the sense that it didn't help. On screen, Vince was still face, it just served as the catalyst for a public heel turn for Vince McMahon. In fact, Vince in the beginning garnered some sympathy with the black eye (which was actually made up to look worse than it was), until he came out with the "i have no sympathy for Bret Hart" statement, to me, that's where the heel turn began, right there.

It also let those unaware know that it actually was him behind the whole thing.