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N40 - Cork City Northern Transportation Project (formerly North Ring Road) [feasibility study]

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 208 ✭✭highwaymaniac


    marno21 wrote: »
    Because (from my point of view), if you don't put those junctions onto the NRR, it won't have the effect of stopping the people living near the junctions from using the NRR, it'll just concentrate more traffic on the routes from those areas to the junctions that will be built.

    I see where you are coming from, but surely that increase in local traffic would limit unsustainable development relying on the new N40 NRR as the sole means of effective transportation. I am fearing urban sprawl here in the county areas outside the new city boundary, similar to passage west, grange, douglas in the past.

    Again I think it comes down to different veiw points as to the purpose of the road. To me it is needed as the existing SRR road is now just a distributor road which is completely over capacity and doesn't fullfil it's strategic function.

    If it were proposed with say 6-7 junctions then I think the project would have to advanced as part of a wider Cork transport strategy with a well thought out Cork City ( new boundary) development plan. I couldn't see it getting past An Bord Pleanala otherwise.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Aside from AugustusMinimus said above which is pretty much spot on,
    I see where you are coming from, but surely that increase in local traffic would limit unsustainable development relying on the new N40 NRR as the sole means of effective transportation. I am fearing urban sprawl here in the county areas outside the new city boundary, similar to passage west, grange, douglas in the past.

    It could potentially do so, but you also need to find balance between the two. I think 5 junctions is balanced, 3 junctions (M8/N20/N22) is too little and 7/8 would be too much.
    Again I think it comes down to different veiw points as to the purpose of the road. To me it is needed as the existing SRR road is now just a distributor road which is completely over capacity and doesn't fullfil it's strategic function.

    I agree, I think the NRR as proposed will be more of an outer bypass but will serve limited distributor road functions.
    If it were proposed with say 6-7 junctions then I think the project would have to advanced as part of a wider Cork transport strategy with a well thought out Cork City ( new boundary) development plan. I couldn't see it getting past An Bord Pleanala otherwise.

    I think we're having a bit of a pointless debate here until we see what the CMATS says about this, having an actual up to date policy document with transport infrastructure requirements and strategies will be incredibly assistive.

    At the minute Cork is reliant on the CASP policy for this stuff which really needs replacement.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    By the way I can eventually see the N40 as is being downgraded to effectively a suburban distributor road rather than its current function. An outer orbital from Ringaskiddy to the future M71 at Ballinhassig which connects onto the M40 at Curraheen and up and around to the M8 will likely be the future around 2040 if current policy persists (apart from the policy of road funding famine in Cork). This idea has been discussed on skyscrapercity in the past as the current Cork road network is totally inadequate into the future. Terrain & topography don't help here either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 208 ✭✭highwaymaniac


    marno21 wrote: »
    I think we're having a bit of a pointless debate here until we see what the CMATS says about this, having an actual up to date policy document with transport infrastructure requirements and strategies will be incredibly assistive.

    At the minute Cork is reliant on the CASP policy for this stuff which really needs replacement.

    Agreed CMATS long overdue, especially considering the boundary extension. Shouldn't hold up the M20 though!


  • Registered Users Posts: 208 ✭✭highwaymaniac


    marno21 wrote: »
    By the way I can eventually see the N40 as is being downgraded to effectively a suburban distributor road rather than its current function. An outer orbital from Ringaskiddy to the future M71 at Ballinhassig which connects onto the M40 at Curraheen and up and around to the M8 will likely be the future around 2040 if current policy persists (apart from the policy of road funding famine in Cork). This idea has been discussed on skyscrapercity in the past as the current Cork road network is totally inadequate into the future. Terrain & topography don't help here either.

    I agree it should be downgraded, 2040 is a bit optimistic though, probably 2060 if we are lucky. NRR probably won't happen until 2040!


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Agreed CMATS long overdue, especially considering the boundary extension. Shouldn't hold up the M20 though!

    CMATS will be highly beneficial though as it will be a policy foundation for at least the NRR West and N27 dualling. Very likely to support an M71 too given the councils plan for the existing N71


  • Registered Users Posts: 208 ✭✭highwaymaniac


    marno21 wrote: »
    CMATS will be highly beneficial though as it will be a policy foundation for at least the NRR West and N27 dualling. Very likely to support an M71 too given the councils plan for the existing N71

    I take it that it is well underway so, when is it due out?


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    I take it that it is well underway so, when is it due out?
    It's overdue at this stage, hopefully it'll be out for Christmas.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,557 ✭✭✭snotboogie




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    I still think the eastern section will be magicked into existance when the M20 plans come out. Just like they did a sneaky by making the Adare bypass part of a TEN-T route to Foynes, I would be very surprised if the M20 just terminates at Blackpool. It would be a horrendous decision if the eastern NRR wasn't included.


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    There are a lot of inaccuracies in that article but it's good to see that the North Ring is making the news anyhow.

    The Cork-Limerick M20 scheme will include a link from the new M20 at Blarney/Killeens to the M8 at Glanmire. That's pretty much a given.

    What I want to question now is the following:

    1. The N22-M20 section has been flagged by TII as a necessary scheme - apparently to be backed up in the CMATS to be published soon - how long will we have to wait for it?
    2. When the M20 to Blarney and onto the M8 is designed - will this include provision for the N22-M20 link or will we have to go back to the drawing board several years later again?

    It surprises me that the western arc isn't pushed more than the eastern arc. The western arc is very direct where as the eastern arc takes a tour around Glanmire. Of course in an ideal world the NRR would tunnel under Glanmire where possible and link up with the M8 a lot closer to Dunkettle and be an actual ring rather than a wide berthed Glanmire bypass.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Good to see proper junctions from the Echo drawings anyways. Looks like a trumpet at the M8 junction.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    marno21 wrote: »
    It surprises me that the western arc isn't pushed more than the eastern arc. The western arc is very direct where as the eastern arc takes a tour around Glanmire. Of course in an ideal world the NRR would tunnel under Glanmire where possible and link up with the M8 a lot closer to Dunkettle and be an actual ring rather than a wide berthed Glanmire bypass.


    AFAIK the western part, while direct, has some tricky terrain which manifested itself in early plans as a viaduct going directly into a tunnel, something we've never done in Ireland. I think it was actually more expensive than the eastern section.



    I don't seem to have those old-old plans though.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    AFAIK the western part, while direct, has some tricky terrain which manifested itself in early plans as a viaduct going directly into a tunnel, something we've never done in Ireland. I think it was actually more expensive than the eastern section.



    I don't seem to have those old-old plans though.

    Seems to be no problem with €600m for an equivalent scheme in Galway though.
    There will be similar issues encountered when someone finally gets the brainwave that there is merit in building a motorway along the N71 approach into Cork. I would imagine it is indeed more expensive than the eastern section, which seems to be designed around being as cheap as possible.

    Hopefully some glimmer of hope in the CMATS plan anyway.The NTA GDA Transport Strategy has a number of roads based recommendations for Dublin which has less direct road needs compared to Cork.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,062 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    marno21 wrote: »
    Of course in an ideal world the NRR would tunnel under Glanmire where possible and link up with the M8 a lot closer to Dunkettle and be an actual ring rather than a wide berthed Glanmire bypass.

    I almost prefer the idea of the currently-mooted Sallybrook interchange, which gives room for a long-term north-east expansion of the city. The valley floor is very flat right up to Sallybrook, which could theoretically allow integration with a long-term-future frequent bus or light rail link to Tivoli. Although nobody seems to be thinking about anything like this yet, you could have a major transit hub at Tivoli and a minor one at Sallybrook.

    Such a Tivoli and/or Sallybrook hub would be way more appropriate for bus and train connections than the Lower Glanmire Road and St Patrick's Quay respectively. You could have rail, bus and park-and-ride all colocated.

    So you could have large growth of the city to the North-East with motorway access and possible high-quality public transport nearby.


  • Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭Kevtherev1


    A question in relation to the future Cork M40 northern ring road. The first part being done with the M20 Cork to Limerick.



    First part of the North M40 to Link Blarney M20 to M8. Will this bit of M40 connect to M8 at Junction 17 Watergrasshill or Junction 18 Sallybrook/ Silversprings. If a provisional routh of the M40 exists online can somebody post a link to it. Thank You


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,360 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    Kevtherev1 wrote: »
    A question in relation to the future Cork M40 northern ring road. The first part being done with the M20 Cork to Limerick.



    First part of the North M40 to Link Blarney M20 to M8. Will this bit of M40 connect to M8 at Junction 17 Watergrasshill or Junction 18 Sallybrook/ Silversprings. If a provisional routh of the M40 exists online can somebody post a link to it. Thank You
    Provisionally junction 18
    https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Northern-Ring-Road-not-quite-dead-end-yet-2b4bdcca-48d5-4b68-ae63-e7e891c49f5f-ds


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    I really hope they absolutely take the piss with the funding and decide to do the whole thing from Ballincollig to Glanmire in one go. Will provide a good alternate to the tunnel.


  • Registered Users Posts: 447 ✭✭Limerick74


    Kevtherev1 wrote: »
    A question in relation to the future Cork M40 northern ring road. The first part being done with the M20 Cork to Limerick.

    The TII / NTA Cork Northern Ring Road is not part of the current M20 project. It will have to be a stand alone project that requires to be recommenced with a planning & design contract.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Limerick74 wrote: »
    The TII / NTA Cork Northern Ring Road is not part of the current M20 project. It will have to be a stand alone project that requires to be recommenced with a planning & design contract.

    Is the exact scope of the M20 project defined yet? Could it be that the M20 becomes not a Patrickswell-Blarney project but a Patrickswell-Blarney-M8 project?

    Simon Coveney was promoting it as being part of the M20 when the NDP was published. I find it baffling that given TII's current various policy stances that they would allow a motorway to be built that terminates in a city centre given the volume of strategic & heavy traffic that will be using it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 447 ✭✭Limerick74


    marno21 wrote: »
    Is the exact scope of the M20 project defined yet? Could it be that the M20 becomes not a Patrickswell-Blarney project but a Patrickswell-Blarney-M8 project?

    Simon Coveney was promoting it as being part of the M20 when the NDP was published. I find it baffling that given TII's current various policy stances that they would allow a motorway to be built that terminates in a city centre given the volume of strategic & heavy traffic that will be using it.

    The ring road element is such a different type of project than the M20. It would delay the M20 by years and it requires a dedicated team to face the specific issues an urban ring road / transport corridor will face (look at Galway!). I agree both require addressing now but not as one mega project.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    I really hope they absolutely take the piss with the funding and decide to do the whole thing from Ballincollig to Glanmire in one go. Will provide a good alternate to the tunnel.

    I just hope they do the junctions correctly.

    A partially unrolled cloverleaf at the M20 junction with trumpets anchoring at both ends.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Limerick74 wrote: »
    The ring road element is such a different type of project than the M20. It would delay the M20 by years and it requires a dedicated team to face the specific issues an urban ring road / transport corridor will face (look at Galway!). I agree both require addressing now but not as one mega project.

    I would agree there in relation to the NW N22-N20 quadrant but the Blarney-Glanmire seems to pass through open fields and isn't as urban as the Galway one, but I do get your point.

    If the M20 is advanced with no North Ring it'll cause headaches galore. As if we needed these.

    One thing that's very important is the publication of CMATS to provide some sort of indication as to what the future for the North Ring is. At present it's all up in the air which is not good enough given the importance of this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    M20 without the M20 - M8 link would be an unmitigated disaster.

    I have a feeling that bit will be included but that the "M20 Motorway" will be from the M8 at Glanmire to Blarney to Limerick. And if the western section gets built, then renumber it to M40.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    https://twitter.com/tim_cook/status/1107314923636318208

    Interesting fact how the roads used to access this 6,000 strong campus are the same roads from St Patricks time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    marno21 wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/tim_cook/status/1107314923636318208

    Interesting fact how the roads used to access this 6,000 strong campus are the same roads from St Patricks time.

    As I’ve said previously, even if they just want to do M20 to M8 first, a small section of M20 to N22 should still be done to facilitate the Hollyhill to M40 link road.


  • Registered Users Posts: 990 ✭✭✭MrDerp


    I just hope they do the junctions correctly.

    A partially unrolled cloverleaf at the M20 junction with trumpets anchoring at both ends.

    Would that provide for a future M8 to M25 link road from the junction?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    MrDerp wrote: »
    Would that provide for a future M8 to M25 link road from the junction?

    Extending the M40 to meet the N25 somewhere around Carrigtowhill?

    You could build the trumpet with future redesign to a partially unrolled cloverleaf in mind.

    I doubt we would see such a scheme for 30 or 40 years mind.


  • Registered Users Posts: 990 ✭✭✭MrDerp


    Extending the M40 to meet the N25 somewhere around Carrigtowhill?

    You could build the trumpet with future redesign to a partially unrolled cloverleaf in mind.

    I doubt we would see such a scheme for 30 or 40 years mind.

    Essentially, yeah. Having lived in Dublin for 5 years post m50 upgrade, I know we’ll be talking about a secondary link within 4-5 years of the dunkettle upgrade, particularly as the council are planning so much for waterrock and carrigtohill


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    I think in time a secondary link will have to be done. Dunkettle just can't take it all. Post upgrade, 4 - 5 years and it'll be over capacity again. its just a historical thing of too many major routes meeting on a constrained site like this.


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