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N40 - Cork City Northern Transportation Project (formerly North Ring Road) [feasibility study]

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Outstanding. Badly needed. Road network on the north of the city badly needs this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,528 ✭✭✭kub


    marno21 wrote: »
    Scheme appears to have been reactivated as part of TII's 2018 allocations.

    It's being reactivated for TEN-T purposes, as level of service on the existing N40 isn't sufficient for TEN-T criteria.

    It seems, and I am guessing here, that TII are going to make the TEN-T Ringaskiddy-Dublin route follow the N40 West from Bloomfield, up around the North Ring and onto the M8.

    Hopefully a route decided in 2019/2020.

    N40/M40 West from Bloomfield.......the squeeze at the Douglas over pass will be a big issue there.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    marno21 wrote: »
    Scheme appears to have been reactivated as part of TII's 2018 allocations.

    It's being reactivated for TEN-T purposes, as level of service on the existing N40 isn't sufficient for TEN-T criteria.

    It seems, and I am guessing here, that TII are going to make the TEN-T Ringaskiddy-Dublin route follow the N40 West from Bloomfield, up around the North Ring and onto the M8.

    Hopefully a route decided in 2019/2020.
    Surely the section from Bloomfield to Dunkettle is well up to motorway standard - was driven on it a few years back and nearly forgot it wasn't a motorway. If traffic congestion through the JLT is the issue, then perhaps construct the remaining parts of the M40 (CNRR) and then toll the JLT.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Middle Man wrote: »
    marno21 wrote: »
    Scheme appears to have been reactivated as part of TII's 2018 allocations.

    It's being reactivated for TEN-T purposes, as level of service on the existing N40 isn't sufficient for TEN-T criteria.

    It seems, and I am guessing here, that TII are going to make the TEN-T Ringaskiddy-Dublin route follow the N40 West from Bloomfield, up around the North Ring and onto the M8.

    Hopefully a route decided in 2019/2020.
    If traffic congestion through the JLT is the issue, then perhaps construct the remaining parts of the M40 (CNRR) and then toll the JLT.

    Goodness gracious no. City centre would grind to a halt. It would be apocalyptic.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Middle Man wrote: »
    Surely the section from Bloomfield to Dunkettle is well up to motorway standard - was driven on it a few years back and nearly forgot it wasn't a motorway. If traffic congestion through the JLT is the issue, then perhaps construct the remaining parts of the M40 (CNRR) and then toll the JLT.
    It is.

    But what I was alluding to is that TII could get the TEN-T Core route from Ringaskiddy redesignated via the NRR and N40 West of Bloomfield to get that section EU funding. It would also wake up the Government into making it compulsory to build the NRR. TII seem to have difficulty at times trying to convince the Government that the roads in Cork need investment.

    A bit like how the M7-Foynes route goes via Rathkeale for EU TEN-T funding.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    marno21 wrote: »
    It is.

    But what I was alluding to is that TII could get the TEN-T Core route from Ringaskiddy redesignated via the NRR and N40 West of Bloomfield to get that section EU funding. It would also wake up the Government into making it compulsory to build the NRR. TII seem to have difficulty at times trying to convince the Government that the roads in Cork need investment.

    A bit like how the M7-Foynes route goes via Rathkeale for EU TEN-T funding.
    Ok, I get what you're saying - if successful, that tactic could be used to get funding for the narrow Douglas section then - that would be potentially 6 lanes from Bloomfield to the Bandon Road.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Widening the Douglas flyover is badly needed. Will take a considerable amount of concrete given the proximity of local roads and buildings.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Widening the Douglas flyover is badly needed. Will take a considerable amount of concrete given the proximity of local roads and buildings.
    When you see the objections the M28 is getting - widening the Douglas flyover would be a hard push. Widening any form of elevated motorway is difficult.

    I can't see any Douglas flyover widening plan until at least Dunkettle and the M28 open - the serious pressure put on the flyover will make it an urgent issue then.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Middle Man


    Goodness gracious no. City centre would grind to a halt. It would be apocalyptic.
    Just to clarify, the Western Link would be built as an un-tolled motorway alternative to the JLT in that case.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Have both the NRR west and east schemes been reactivated for just east (N20 to M8)?


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Have both the NRR west and east schemes been reactivated for just east (N20 to M8)?
    No further information yet. Ideally both.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,557 ✭✭✭snotboogie


    Will there be any clarification on this road on Friday?


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    snotboogie wrote: »
    Will there be any clarification on this road on Friday?
    We'll see.

    Hopefully.

    But having hope when it comes to road upgrades in Cork can be naive.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Northern-Ring-Road-and-possible-LUAS-for-Cork-to-be-confirmed-today-8d45dce0-79f8-4e8b-a796-fc42f5955219-ds

    Evening Echo think that NRR M8 to M20 will be in the plan. The Ballincollig to M20 section will not though.

    Interesting to see that it will be a trumpet junction for N40-M8 and some sort of free flow junction at N40-M20.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Northern-Ring-Road-and-possible-LUAS-for-Cork-to-be-confirmed-today-8d45dce0-79f8-4e8b-a796-fc42f5955219-ds

    Evening Echo think that NRR M8 to M20 will be in the plan. The Ballincollig to M20 section will not though.

    Interesting to see that it will be a trumpet junction for N40-M8 and some sort of free flow junction at N40-M20.

    That's the original plan, but may not be what actually gets built.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    That's the original plan, but may not be what actually gets built.

    No. The original plan was for a grade separated Roundabout at the M8 junction.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    No. The original plan was for a grade separated Roundabout at the M8 junction.

    I though that had been changed before it got canned. Anyways, where ever the Echo got that layout, this like the M20 will have to go back to the start of planning. It's literally back to the drawing board and everything from 2008 is in the bin.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Very interested in how this will progress. Suspect the east part will be bundled with the M20.


  • Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭fonzy951


    The existing NRR road (The Glen) basically cuts through housing estates, community areas etc. and is very dangerous for residents in the area. It's a disgrace this road is still used for connecting the N20 to the Dunkettle Interchange.
    I can't believe an appraisal is still required at this stage before deciding if the east section of the new NRR is required, the existing road is beyond shocking.


  • Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    According to this report from the Examiner (http://examiner.ie/ireland/cork-citys-skyline-set-for-dramatic-transformation-467356.html) the Tánaiste has basically promised that the NRR from Blackpool to the M8 will be delivered as part of the M20. He was speaking at a Cork Chamber of Commerce meeting to describe how Cork is set to become the fastest-growing part of the country in years to come. Here is what he is quoted as saying:

    "A very important element for many people on the northside of the city, and for businesses, we are going to do half of the Northern Ring Road. The Eastern half. That will link the motorway from Limerick to the motorway from Dublin, and is the important side to get done first. The Northern Ring Road is a €400m project. If you have a motorway coming in from Limerick to Cork, you can’t simply just bring it into Blackpool with the current structures there at the moment. There will have to be a significant junction there, and a dual carriageway going east to link to Dunkettle, which is in many ways our Red Cow junction.

    By acknowledging that the M20 cannot simply pour everything into Blackpool, it sounds like the government is going to have to commit to building a continuous stretch of high-quality road from Attyflin to Blackpool, and then all the way out to what will hopefully be the M40 in Glanmire, AND to carry out construction of both segments of the road at the same time.

    This would be an absolute game-changer for Cork if it happened.


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    According to this report from the Examiner (http://examiner.ie/ireland/cork-citys-skyline-set-for-dramatic-transformation-467356.html) the Tánaiste has basically promised that the NRR from Blackpool to the M8 will be delivered as part of the M20. He was speaking at a Cork Chamber of Commerce meeting to describe how Cork is set to become the fastest-growing part of the country in years to come. Here is what he is quoted as saying:

    "A very important element for many people on the northside of the city, and for businesses, we are going to do half of the Northern Ring Road. The Eastern half. That will link the motorway from Limerick to the motorway from Dublin, and is the important side to get done first. The Northern Ring Road is a €400m project. If you have a motorway coming in from Limerick to Cork, you can’t simply just bring it into Blackpool with the current structures there at the moment. There will have to be a significant junction there, and a dual carriageway going east to link to Dunkettle, which is in many ways our Red Cow junction.

    By acknowledging that the M20 cannot simply pour everything into Blackpool, it sounds like the government is going to have to commit to building a continuous stretch of high-quality road from Attyflin to Blackpool, and then all the way out to what will hopefully be the M40 in Glanmire, AND to carry out construction of both segments of the road at the same time.

    This would be an absolute game-changer for Cork if it happened.
    Good stuff. The M28, Dunkettle, Mallow bypass, M20 and NRR will be great for Cork between now and 2027.

    It's been confirmed for some time now that the spoof merchants spoof is falling on deaf ears and the M20 will rightly be built along the N20 corridor.

    Hopefully down the road the M40 West can be built as a PPP and done sooner rather than later. With a bit of luck it'll incorporate its continuation M71 towards Ballinhassig.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    The article alludes to a proper junctions on the scheme too. If there’s one thing us Irish like to do is to build roads with stupid junctions. The M6/M17/M18 junction being a case in point.

    Sadly, I don’t think the M22/M40 junction in future will ever be free flow.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    The one thing I hope for here is that the M20/M40 junction is designed in mind that the N40 will one day continue west towards Ballincollig.

    I don't want money spent on a massive junction that'll have to be redone when the Western quadrant is built, which may skew the cost of the Western section in time. You'd think after the Kinsale, Bandon, Sarsfield and Dunkettle ****ups that we'll learn now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    marno21 wrote: »
    The one thing I hope for here is that the M20/M40 junction is designed in mind that the N40 will one day continue west towards Ballincollig.

    I don't want money spent on a massive junction that'll have to be redone when the Western quadrant is built, which may skew the cost of the Western section in time. You'd think after the Kinsale, Bandon, Sarsfield and Dunkettle ****ups that we'll learn now.

    Original plan was for a 3 grade stack which was crazy. This was then changed to a partially unrollled cloverleaf as I’ve posted before.

    I’d be genuinely shocked if the full junction wasn’t built. Makes by far the most sense. The Echo article alludes to this is their article above with the map being shown.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭pigtown


    Wouldn't there be more to gain by doing the western section first? The south west of the city is quite far from the tunnel and a link from there to the M20 seems like a more pressing case


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    pigtown wrote: »
    Wouldn't there be more to gain by doing the western section first? The south west of the city is quite far from the tunnel and a link from there to the M20 seems like a more pressing case
    I would agree that M40 West would be more beneficial.

    But M40 East is cheaper.

    Therefore we will be getting M40 East.

    Eventually both are needed to relieve serious bottlenecks on the existing N40. The tunnel and the Douglas flyover being the worst 2. Having a full 360 ring road also provides redundancy in the case of a serious accident.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭pigtown


    I figured cost was the reason


  • Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    marno21 wrote: »
    Eventually both are needed to relieve serious bottlenecks on the existing N40. The tunnel and the Douglas flyover being the worst 2. Having a full 360 ring road also provides redundancy in the case of a serious accident.
    Agreed. I believe we can expect to see a situation in 10-15 years time with a completed M40 and a toll point between junction 10 in Mahon and the tunnel entrance (rather than putting a toll on the western part of the NRR - TII will want to divert as much traffic away from the tunnel as possible).


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,528 ✭✭✭kub


    Whilst I can understand the frustrations of local residents and the traffic on the ' North Ring Road '. I think this carry on is completely wrong.

    http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Residents-threaten-sit-down-protest-on-north-ring-road-over-chronic-traffic-volumes-9ae623b9-aaad-4c8c-9899-5981ad2515c4-ds

    This road has been choked for years, even during FF's tenure in Government, so we have a FF Councillor;

    Fianna F’s Tim Brosnan backed Mr Tynan’s call for action, claiming that the area has been all but ignored for years. “There is far more traffic going through the area now than ever before,” he said.
    “Even the plans in place, like the proposed junction at Tinker’s Cross, won’t make a difference; that would result in even more traffic pouring in.
    “The only message that this Government seem to understand is protest. I will be out there, side-by-side with the protesters and we will back traffic up to Dunkettle if we have to.”


    So for anyone sitting for a long long time as result of their actions, this is what caused it.


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    kub wrote: »
    Whilst I can understand the frustrations of local residents and the traffic on the ' North Ring Road '. I think this carry on is completely wrong.

    http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Residents-threaten-sit-down-protest-on-north-ring-road-over-chronic-traffic-volumes-9ae623b9-aaad-4c8c-9899-5981ad2515c4-ds

    This road has been choked for years, even during FF's tenure in Government, so we have a FF Councillor;

    Fianna F’s Tim Brosnan backed Mr Tynan’s call for action, claiming that the area has been all but ignored for years. “There is far more traffic going through the area now than ever before,” he said.
    “Even the plans in place, like the proposed junction at Tinker’s Cross, won’t make a difference; that would result in even more traffic pouring in.
    “The only message that this Government seem to understand is protest. I will be out there, side-by-side with the protesters and we will back traffic up to Dunkettle if we have to.”


    So for anyone sitting for a long long time as result of their actions, this is what caused it.

    I don't think it'll achieve anything, but the premise is correct.

    The North Ring Road would be busy if it was just an access road for the various estates and residential developments along the route, let alone it being a through route for traffic, especially port traffic. It's effectively an extension of the N20 connecting the N20 to the Cork area national road network, it's signed N8-N25-N27-N28-N71. The lack of any form of western north ring road doesn't help, as the existing setup is basically a link road cobbled through housing estates.

    The fact that it meets the N8 at a grade seperated junction, one of the only ones inside Cork city shows the volume of traffic using it.

    It needs replacing badly, but the replacement is at best 8-9 years away and a sitdown protest isn't going to accelerate this.


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