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N40 - Cork City Northern Transportation Project (formerly North Ring Road) [feasibility study]

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Been doing a bit of reading up on various Cork road projects over the last few days.

    One thing I have to note about this future project is the standard of junctions. Considering the Dunkettle Interchange bottleneck, I really hope that both the M40 - M8 and M20 - M40 junctions will be upgraded from 3 level stacks to completely freeflow. This can be done for little cost. Lets just hope when these projects finally see the good ahead there will be a change for the better.

    The other thing I noted was the Western Section going from Blarney to Ballincollig. For a start the terrain is going to be quite challenging with big elevation changes. The other thing of note is what they are going to do with the section between The Lee River and the N22. I don't think there is very much wiggle room.

    For a start, are they planning on going a flyover of the Poulavone Roundabout ? There is also a 2nd at-grade roundabout between Poulavone and the N22 interchange. Will this also be given the flyover treatment ? At a guess, I presume they won't on the basis of expected traffic levels and due to the N22 interchange being a standard dumbbell.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    So. Did a bit of further reading up last night. The Western Section document on the Cork Roads website was very informative. While I know the Western Section might not be built for 10 years or more, its nice to see what the engineers have come up with.

    For a start, here is the N22 - N40 junction solution. A grade separated roundabout. Very disappointing. Would hope that the engineers will come back and take a second look at this in future. it will use the bridge that is already there and add in a second bridge for the other side of the roundabout.

    2cwu4wp.jpg


    The document also shows the M20 - N40 proposed junction. There was a lot of speculation in this thread over this being a 3 level stack. Thankfully, they have opted for a fully freeflow junction in the form of a partially unrolled cloverleaf. Very nice junction design.

    aywwo9.jpg


    The other question answered was in regards to the Poulavone roundabout. The N40 will go under the roundabout in the form of a tunnel.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,528 ✭✭✭kub


    Roll on 2034, that is when i think they will start on these projects.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    kub wrote: »
    Roll on 2034, that is when i think they will start on these projects.

    The Northern Section (M20 to M8) will most likely be built at the same time as the M20. With an improving economy you'd hope to see a start to both schemes in maybe 4 or 5 years ?

    I wouldn't be too hopeful about the Western Scheme (M20 to N22) in the short term. It is probably bottom on the list of schemes which Cork needs done. I'd list them as follows:

    1. Dunkettle Interchange
    2. M20
    3. NRR Northern Section
    4. N28
    5. Macroom to Ballyvourney
    6. Ballincollig to Macroom
    7. NRR Western Section

    However, I would imagine that a small part of the Western Section will be done at the same time as the Northern Section. Just after the M20/M40 junction there's plans to do a link road going from the M40 to Knocknaheeny where Apple is. Expect this part of the road to be thrown in with the NRR Northern Section. The link road is highlights as a dotted black line on this map.

    cnrr28qd.jpg

    The rest of the Western Section will be a hard build and will probably involved a cable stay bridge over the River Lee.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,528 ✭✭✭kub



    I wouldn't be too hopeful about the Western Scheme (M20 to N22) in the short term. It is probably bottom on the list of schemes which Cork needs done. I'd list them as follows:

    1. Dunkettle Interchange
    2. M20
    3. NRR Northern Section
    4. N28
    5. Macroom to Ballyvourney
    6. Ballincollig to Macroom
    7. NRR Western Section

    I think as Ringaskiddy has been recognised by Europe as some sort of super duper port that the N28 will be the first with Dunkettle soon after. Did i read somewhere that European money will fund the necessary work on the N28?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    There you go Marno.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,342 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    North Ring was in the paper last week in an article about the new town of Monard.
    Transport Infrastructure Ireland has agreed to a location for a junction which would connect Monard with the proposed new Northern Ring Road.

    Source: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/plans-for-new-cork-town-with-5300-homes-get-green-light-402784.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,820 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    marno21 wrote: »
    North Ring was in the paper last week in an article about the new town of Monard.
    yea, it'd be a grand place to live if the northern ring was built, but conversely, if Monard goes ahead without the ring built first it would only provide more justification to have the north ring built / prioritised.

    I had to travel the back roads from the N20-->Blarney-->Ballincollig last week and its far from pleasant. Even a high quality single carraigeway to bridge the gap would do the trick.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,342 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    http://www.eveningecho.ie/cork-news/ring-road-college-needed-northside/2539528/

    Billy Kelleher on about this.

    Agreed with him about it, it's becoming more important now with the Apple expansion


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Given planning for the N20 has restarted, wonder will they do something about this. At least for the M20 to M8 section.

    As previously said, there will be a spur directly leading to Apple too.


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,342 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    I'll revive this thread as a discussion is ongoing in the M20 thread as to the merits of this road.

    For reference, here's the routes as published by the Cork RDO. Planning will have to restart but the routes available won't be a whole lot different from the above.

    http://www.corkrdo.ie/files/NRR-Supplementary%20Brochure.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,820 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    marno21 wrote: »
    I'll revive this thread as a discussion is ongoing in the M20 thread as to the merits of this road.

    For reference, here's the routes as published by the Cork RDO. Planning will have to restart but the routes available won't be a whole lot different from the above.

    http://www.corkrdo.ie/files/NRR-Supplementary%20Brochure.pdf
    there was a preferred rout published which used the existing dual carrigeway to the east of Ballincollig and then high over a bridge over the lee valley

    heres the broschure on that announcement
    http://www.corkrdo.ie/files/CNRR%20Brochure-Preferred%20Route%20Part%201.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    We never did find out though if they were going to do it the lazy way and keep the current roundabouts, or grade seperate the 're-used' bit in Ballincollig.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    We never did find out though if they were going to do it the lazy way and keep the current roundabouts, or grade seperate the 're-used' bit in Ballincollig.

    The road would have gone under the Poulavone Roundabout. No idea about the other roundabout or if a hard shoulder would be added.

    The junction with the N22 would be a horrible grade separated roundabout.


  • Registered Users Posts: 636 ✭✭✭Pablo Escobar


    I moved away from Cork over 2 years ago. I was back for the past week and was never at more than a crawl on the N40 at any stage. The traffic volumes using that road are ridiculous. It's incredible how bad it has become in the intervening period.


  • Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭parkerpen


    I moved away from Cork over 2 years ago. I was back for the past week and was never at more than a crawl on the N40 at any stage. The traffic volumes using that road are ridiculous. It's incredible how bad it has become in the intervening period.

    That seems to be a common feedback from many people.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,342 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    parkerpen wrote: »
    That seems to be a common feedback from many people.
    No solutions bar the opening of Dunkettle in ~4 years. No proposed solution for Douglas floyver/Mahon mess. Maybe more houses in Carrigaline & Midleton would help.

    No North Ring, N22/N25/N71 dualling, M20 for 10 years at least.


  • Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭parkerpen


    It was like the mess that resulted in the South Link Road being opened in 1996 as far as Bishopstown but then all the westbound traffic for Ballincollig and beyond had nowhere to go except find rat runs and cause huge traffic congestion in suburban areas until the rest of the bypass was opened nearly 10 years later. Really need something to be done at Dunkettle, asap as these long delays are inexcusable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,656 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    I moved away from Cork over 2 years ago. I was back for the past week and was never at more than a crawl on the N40 at any stage. The traffic volumes using that road are ridiculous. It's incredible how bad it has become in the intervening period.

    The problem with the N40 and Cork city itself (as someone who's there a bit) is there's no real alternatives to driving - the place is incredibly car dependent. But despite this reliance on the car, there's a very poor road network, and getting around the city is a mess with narrow streets, one way systems, and parking problems everywhere. Plus it's very stressful with pedestrians walking out in front of you constantly and nobody seems to bloody indicate in Cork!!

    Even good ideas like the Black Ash Park and Ride are hampered by things like no Sunday service. Even over the Christmas period the website said no service but I decided to chance it anyway on the way in and yep, it was running alright.
    As someone who (as posters on C&T will know) generally dislikes the hassle and delays of public transport, this is actually a fantastic system.. plenty of onsite parking, 10 minutes into the city, and a 15 minute service... for a fiver per car! This setup should be extended (and replicated all over places like Dublin) IMO.

    As bad as Dublin is, it at least has an extensive city bus network, LUAS, DART and commuter rail. Even though those services need a lot of improving too, at least they take some of the pressure from the roads. Cork however has virtually nothing by comparison yet likes to position itself as a viable alternative to Dublin for investment, work and living.

    As someone who may well be moving down that way next year, the prospect of dealing with the traffic (and muppetry - which I find worse than Dublin!) really puts me off.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,342 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    TII have objected to a proposed horse grazing facilties for traveller use along a proposed route corridor for the North Ring Road, western section.

    Good to see this pivotal scheme isn't being forgotten.

    http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Large-number-of-objections-to-Traveller-horse-facility-at-Leemount-d7586e33-e4e6-4422-b714-05e6ad1daf43-ds


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  • Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    marno21 wrote: »
    TII have objected to a proposed horse grazing facilties for traveller use along a proposed route corridor for the North Ring Road, western section.

    Good to see this pivotal scheme isn't being forgotten.

    http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Large-number-of-objections-to-Traveller-horse-facility-at-Leemount-d7586e33-e4e6-4422-b714-05e6ad1daf43-ds

    Shame there's been no mention of it alongside the M20. Put in the M20 and the North Ring at the same time as the Dunkettle upgrade and M28, and Cork's economy wouldn't know what had hit it!


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,342 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Local residents unhappy that Travellers want part of one of the potential corridors for the North Ring Road to be given to them for a horse grazing facility:

    http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Residents-want-planners-to-give-extra-reasons-to-refuse-Traveller-horse-facility-35639bb3-89bf-4b06-bac6-e17d98d0fc2b-ds


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,720 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    marno21 wrote: »
    Travellers unhappy that part of one of the potential corridors for the North Ring Road isn't being given to them for a horse grazing facility:

    http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Residents-want-planners-to-give-extra-reasons-to-refuse-Traveller-horse-facility-35639bb3-89bf-4b06-bac6-e17d98d0fc2b-ds

    in fairness, that story states that the local residents are unhappy, not the travellers per se. The residents want the proposal more comprehensively rejected (not sure I've see an appeal like that before).

    Presumably most of the land earmarked for the road is already "grazing land"?


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,342 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    loyatemu wrote: »
    in fairness, that story states that the local residents are unhappy, not the travellers per se. The residents want the proposal more comprehensively rejected (not sure I've see an appeal like that before).

    Presumably most of the land earmarked for the road is already "grazing land"?

    Apologies, corrected


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,342 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Next week this article will be 10 years old.. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/nra-unveils-proposed-route-for-500m-cork-northern-ring-road-1.988842

    We've actually gone back in that time, in that the above work will all have to be redone.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25 corinthion


    now that the city boundaries are being changed , should people now look at the route of the north ring road, at the moment the plan is to bring the road between killeens and Blarney on out to Ballincollig. Should they now think of moving it out further pass Blarney maybe out as far as the waterloo junction and bypass Blarney and bring it in by Tower or further out. The traffic has being building up over the years with the growth of Tower and this can be seen in the morning in Blarney and over by the anglers rest bar with the tailbacks. . it may cost extra but it would be planning for the pouplation growth in 15-20 years , iv seen it on the m50 in Dublin, where it has grown and the city is now bypassing the m50 and the talks of building another bypass outside the m50, should we not learn from this


  • Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    corinthion wrote: »
    now that the city boundaries are being changed , should people now look at the route of the north ring road, at the moment the plan is to bring the road between killeens and Blarney on out to Ballincollig. Should they now think of moving it out further pass Blarney maybe out as far as the waterloo junction and bypass Blarney and bring it in by Tower or further out. The traffic has being building up over the years with the growth of Tower and this can be seen in the morning in Blarney and over by the anglers rest bar with the tailbacks. . it may cost extra but it would be planning for the pouplation growth in 15-20 years , iv seen it on the m50 in Dublin, where it has grown and the city is now bypassing the m50 and the talks of building another bypass outside the m50, should we not learn from this
    Should be thinking of the N40 northern component solely as a distant bypass? I think it should be built in such a way that it takes traffic out of the city centre (i.e. if you're living in Douglas and work in Blackpool you can easily avoid the city centre traffic without spending too much longer on the road). I think looping the N40 out past Blarney would put off a lot of drivers who would otherwise have chosen to avoid the city centre - it's just too many kilometres.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    corinthion wrote: »
    now that the city boundaries are being changed , should people now look at the route of the north ring road, at the moment the plan is to bring the road between killeens and Blarney on out to Ballincollig. Should they now think of moving it out further pass Blarney maybe out as far as the waterloo junction and bypass Blarney and bring it in by Tower or further out. The traffic has being building up over the years with the growth of Tower and this can be seen in the morning in Blarney and over by the anglers rest bar with the tailbacks. . it may cost extra but it would be planning for the pouplation growth in 15-20 years , iv seen it on the m50 in Dublin, where it has grown and the city is now bypassing the m50 and the talks of building another bypass outside the m50, should we not learn from this

    It really wouldn’t make any difference as no additional junctions would be installed with the local road network.

    I can only begin to imagine the difference this scheme would make. The Mardyke and Shanakiel would be transformed. Serious amounts of traffic taken out of the city centre and Blackpool.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,342 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    It really wouldn’t make any difference as no additional junctions would be installed with the local road network.

    I can only begin to imagine the difference this scheme would make. The Mardyke and Shanakiel would be transformed. Serious amounts of traffic taken out of the city centre and Blackpool.

    And zero impetus to build it.

    A final route corridor needs to be decided for once and for all and at least part of this built with the M20. Would be immense for the north side of the city and also take substantial traffic off the South Ring especially around Douglas. N22/N71 traffic heading east or north of Dunkettle doesn't need to be driving through the Douglas. Same with N27/M28 traffic heading north


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,342 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Scheme appears to have been reactivated as part of TII's 2018 allocations.

    It's being reactivated for TEN-T purposes, as level of service on the existing N40 isn't sufficient for TEN-T criteria.

    It seems, and I am guessing here, that TII are going to make the TEN-T Ringaskiddy-Dublin route follow the N40 West from Bloomfield, up around the North Ring and onto the M8.

    Hopefully a route decided in 2019/2020.


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