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N40 - Cork City Northern Transportation Project (formerly North Ring Road) [feasibility study]

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Comments

  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,332 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Looks like this is to be included in some shape or form in the NDP as the "Cork Northern Transport Project". P&R at the rail line looks a certainty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,062 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl




  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,332 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Sorry P&R where the NRR or whatever they’re calling it now will cross the Dublin-Cork line near Monard. Was mentioned in de paper on Monday.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,332 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Website launched: https://www.ccntp.ie/

    Route selection in 2023.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,938 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    This wasn't mentioned in the 2022 Allocations announcement.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 442 ✭✭Limerick74




  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,332 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Which in the current environment is very very welcome.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,842 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    I really, really hope the penny has dropped that you simply can't have the M20 ending in Blackpool and then trundle through to the M8 via Ballyvolane and Tivoli. Those two motorways just have to be linked.

    Should have had the M20 starting at Glanmire and sneaking it into that project, a la Adare bypass being done as part of the Foynes scheme.



  • Registered Users Posts: 38 OpinionN


    Looks small though? I assume this project is to distinguish the demands for bypass/distributor/both, right? I really hope it's both, even if the distributor is mostly just an upgrade of the existing North Ring Road.

    I would also have said M20 should have started in Glanmire, but I think the M20 budget already caused problems, so I understand why it would have been left behind. It is a fairly glaring omission in the network though: the idea of HGV's traipsing through the city to get to the port, is crazy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 442 ✭✭Limerick74


    The Cork Northern Distributor Road will distribute the HGVs from the N20 to the N8/N22/N25/N40 in advance of the CCNTP project.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,842 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    I have my doubts though that the CNDR will be built. Or if it is, it will still have to come through the Tivoli junction... theres no-where else for it to join up unless you take it east of Glanmire.

    I hope it doesn't get built TBH, we need the grade-seperated CNRR N40, and if the CNDR gets built, then they'll use that as an excuse not to build the CNRR.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,405 ✭✭✭Hibernicis


    These roads, CNRR and CNDR, serve two different purposes and both are very necessary and both should be built, sooner rather than later. I'd agree with you that it looks as though only one will be built. However I'd give the CNDR a much better chance of seeing the light of day given that it is already at Route Selection stage (which was due to have been completed in Q4 2021) and is a considerably lower cost option, and (most importantly in the mind of the current Minister) it couldn't ever be considered to be a dreaded motorway or anything like it. Of course all of this could change if we somehow get to see the back of Ryan, but for now the CNRR looks to have little chance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 38 OpinionN


    In its original concept it goes from Tivoli, Fob and Gill, cuts North to cross the Banduff Road, Rathcooney Road and West to join Ballyhooly Road, Lower Dublin Hill, crosses the train line just north of the River Bride, and then cuts sharply South-West to join the middle of the Lee Road. That's CMATS 2019, page 88. It's shown distinct from the bypass, there.

    Next concept is from the Cork City Development Plan 2022-2028 page 130 Volume 1 Chapter 4, which would cover the above but also covers the entire area of the theoretical M20/M8/M40 "connector" bypass, if that makes sense. This plan describes it as a development enabler for the North of the City, providing an orbital route for pedestrian, cycle and bus. However they also say that it will allow the downgrading of national routes entering the city. This version is a lot more fuzzy. But crucially, they describe it as distinct from N40 North, and they go into great detail about N40 North. They intend to follow CMATS.

    As Hibernicis above says, I think both are necessary and both should be built.

    Exactly as you say, I'd actually prefer to see the M20/M8/M40 done first, or both at the same time because I'd expect a bypass to be put on the very long finger and I'd expect the distributor to become clogged up quite quickly with M20 and M8 traffic otherwise. We'll see what happens!



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,332 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Definitely a project that the Minister would like to use his powers of interference on.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    N40 North Ring is safe. It is a genuine bypass of Cork City, with only three intermediate junctions between its start on N8 and end on N22, and, as it links N20 with N8 and N22 it will take national traffic to and from Limerick out of the north side of Cork city.

    Actually, I think that, if traffic is kept at current levels, this road would be environmentally neutral in the long term. The better road geometry and lack of stop-starts means there will be lower emission from vehicles traveling on the new road versus taking the old route, but against that there is a lot of CO2 produced by its construction. I’d like to see someone actually doing these calculations, but I suspect that in cases like this where the existing route involves steep inclines and multiple stops and starts, the motorway actually pays back the very high CO2 cost of its construction by lowering CO2 emissions of HGV traffic making the journey*

    But I did say “if traffic is kept constant”... The environmental bogeyman with new roads is not the road itself, it’s the induced demand for private-car commuting that it creates. Private commuters are the biggest, and least manageable, source of transport CO2 emissions, so we (as a society) need to be careful that we don’t do things that encourage such an environmentally costly behaviour. Now before anyone has a Clarkson moment, that is not the same as “we must ban cars”; it’s a recognition that we have to come up with better alternatives to commuters than joining a traffic jam every morning and evening. Electric cars won’t solve this: a traffic-jam of EVs might not be as environmentally wasteful as one full of cars burning petrol, but it is still a waste of resources, time and energy.

    __

    * for example, here’s a back-of-an-envelope type calculation: one paper I found suggested an average figure of 65~70,000 kg of CO2 equivalent emissions per lane, per kilometre to construct a limited access highway, so say there’s about 300 million grammes of CO2 per kilometre of a normal motorway-style road. If 20,000 vehicle journeys per day shift onto the new route, and each vehicle emits 3g/km less CO2 as a result of the better geometry, then in 14 years the new motorway will have repaid its construction emissions. The problem, as I said above, is what happens if the presence of the new road creates an overall increase in journey-kilometres, and thus higher emissions overall..



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,420 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    I'm a bit fed up of the green bogey man ,

    In Ireland public transport is always done after this next bit of road , this next junction, well the traffic is heavy in the next town along now ,and obviously the votes are sitting in cars getting frustrated, so the greens public transport policy while crude is understandable ...

    Most public transport in Ireland is buses and coaches,bikes are public transport so a decent bike lane ,decent bus stops in the right places , and a commitment to an orbital bus route ,+ bus lanes where needed , decent ways to shift betwéen modes of transport , and hey presto it's got non car transport built in , and if designed in from the start not at stupid cost . And if it's done properly it'll reduce both time in cars and the need for a car .

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,842 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    The thing with this CNRR is still fairly simple - if the M20 gets built (and even if it got watered down to 2+2, god help us) then you STILL need to link the N/M20 with the M8. You can't have freight destined for Limerick coming along the M28, along the N40, pottering through suburban Blackpool, then going north on the new N/M20.

    That said, I worry about this scheme... it should have been bundled with the M20 for sanity reasons (albeit expensive) and basically fudge it by having the M20 start on the M8 at Glanmire.



  • Registered Users Posts: 48 macflea



    When I superimposed the new commercial zoning for Site 4 Glanmire on the route protected corridor for the North ring road, it seems to me that the City Council has zoned land within the corridor .



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,062 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    I'd love to see a transport hub/interchange at that location too.

    It's also expected to be the location of the new hospital in future.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,685 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Would it be realistic to build a new rail line along the NRR? Branch off the rail line around Rathpeacon and head east.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The terrain here is not rail-friendly- the current lines both run in valleys, while the new road will run at a greater height. You could build a rail viaduct alongside the road, but you’d be left with a problem of how to get back down to the existing lines.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,062 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Yep rail would be very challenging. From a topographical perspective you'd actually stand a better chance of bringing rail to the area from Dunkettle side.

    But Glanmire is quite urban and has some protected structures like Glanmire Bridge etc, so that direction is difficult for rail too. A tram with mixed tram/car street in Glanmire and again in Riverstown could work, but the distance to the city could be a problem, with a long stretch of nothing between Glanmire and the city. The last thing I can think of would be to bring that tram through the new Tivoli development to the city. The last leg up to the Hospital/Interchange from Glamire would need to be with lifts, escalators, shuttle buses, or some kind of tram pulley system. It's very steep to get to Sarsfield's Court from Glanmire.

    Overall, high cost and I don't think it would be weathered politically. So probably a bus network linking directly to the city with proper bus priority is the medium-term solution.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,420 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    In general ,unless your talking huge huge volumes , or connectivity to an existing rail system is there anything rail could do better than a decent bus route ? ( If cost and terrain were no object ?)

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Rail has predictable journey times, as trains don’t get stuck in city traffic.

    Even with bus-lanes, there are still delays at lights and junctions, where buses compete with other traffic*. The only way to get buses to the same level is with dedicated end-to-end bus-ways (Bus Rapid Transport, or BRT). BRT doesn’t have the glamour of a tram, though, even though it’s about half the price to implement.

    __

    * other countries, notably the Netherlands, have put in traffic-light control systems that detect approaching buses and hold traffic to let them pass through without slowing, but this works mainly because the Dutch are a nation of drivers who will stop when the traffic light turns red. In Cork, drivers tend to speed up when they think a light is about to go red (so that they can end up sitting in the yellow-box for two minutes blocking the opposing traffic-flow... :( ).



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,332 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭cantalach


    Buses don’t get stuck in city traffic if the city doesn’t have traffic…



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,420 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    The only reason people will willingly take public transport is if the city is full of traffic ,

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭cantalach




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,938 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Nope, if public transport is high quality people will use it in preference to their own car. Happens all over the world in cities where public transport is widespread, reliable and high quality.



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