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N40 - Cork City Northern Transportation Project (formerly North Ring Road) [feasibility study]

  • 28-04-2008 11:02am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    Ok I think I've had a bit of a revelation as to the current state of reclassifications.

    Many of us wondered why the N8 will only be reclassified to M to the southern end of the Fermoy bypass, when the road is motorway quality (at maybe 100kmh) to Dunkettle.

    In the most recent spate of updates to the Cork RDO website they give details on possible junction treatments on the proposed NRR. The link with the current N8 north of Glanmire will be a vastly underpowered pile of nonsense and will have local access floating around. This could be why the N8 south of here will not be M. There will probably be no reclassification of any of the Cork Ring roads due to local access issues.

    Also, the junction with the NRR and the current N20 at Killeens will be a three level stack, another stupid decision.

    This document contains only one of the potential routes, but the junction treatments are the same. Look at the N8/NRR junction, its an absolute shambles.

    http://www.corkrdo.ie/files/NRR-FIGS-25%20Junction%20Layout%20Yellow%20Route.pdf
    Post edited by marno21 on
    Tagged:


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Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    This document contains only one of the potential routes, but the junction treatments are the same. Look at the N8/NRR junction, its an absolute shambles.

    What is wrong with it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    Basically instead of building a trumpet which would allow freeflow, almost everything will have to navigate a roundabout.

    You'd think they'd put a decent junction in rather than this thing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Basically instead of building a trumpet which would allow freeflow, almost everything will have to navigate a roundabout.

    You'd think they'd put a decent junction in rather than this thing.


    NRA have become allergic to building free flow interchanges FACT.

    They actually have not built one free flow junction on any of the interurbans.

    Kilkenny spur to M9 is one. Are there any others??

    Chris, thE glanmire bypass shouldnt be motorway as it has too many tight curves and Some parts is actually quite hilly, this is not up to spec motorway designs.. It was built as a dual carriegway back in the early 90s. If it was allowed to be motorway it would of been motorway already.

    We.ve gone through this nonsense already.

    Old news.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    jank wrote: »
    What is wrong with it?

    In fairness its not going to be a busy road.....


    1.Majority of the suburban pop of cork is actually on the southside.
    2.There is also a NRR that allows traffic to go from N20 near blackpool link to N8 at Dunkettle already.
    3. Majority of N20 users want to go to cork city as with N8 ditto. the North ring road is not going to have a major impact on filtering traffic with regards to these movements.

    I actually think there is no real need for this NRR.

    I do believe the SRR interchanges should be upgraded.

    The rest for the begging for NRR is hideous...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    Only true freeflow junctions seem to be the M50 ones. Not counting the N7/N20 one that they're building as that is removing one movement.

    And yeah, I agree that 120kmh isnt suitable for the Glanmire bypass, but 100kmh limit and motorway restrictions is perfectly reasonable, especially as the limit is 100kmh as it stands.


    Edit: And try driving the current NRR (basically a cobbling of roads through estates) during rush hour and tell me we dont need the new North Ring project.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Only true freeflow junctions seem to be the M50 ones. Not counting the N7/N20 one that they're building as that is removing one movement.

    And yeah, I agree that 120kmh isnt suitable for the Glanmire bypass, but 100kmh limit and motorway restrictions is perfectly reasonable, especially as the limit is 100kmh as it stands.



    Edit: And try driving the current NRR (basically a cobbling of roads through estates) during rush hour and tell me we dont need the new North Ring project.


    Exaggeration there. It doesnt actually go through a 6metre road estate does it. That is city traffic, local traffic. NRR wont solve it.


    In 10 years time we will see whos right;)

    NRR is fallable to your arguement.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious



    And yeah, I agree that 120kmh isnt suitable for the Glanmire bypass, but 100kmh limit and motorway restrictions is perfectly reasonable, especially as the limit is 100kmh as it stands.


    That is just stupid. And your argument is basically "i want a blue glanmire bypass on my map"

    If was reclassified as motorway then most Dc can become motorway. If it were blue signs people will treat is as a motorway and will go over 120kmh.

    God this is to silly to get into.
    Leave it be.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭invincibleirish


    I think the NRR project should be treated with a view to alleviating pressure on the South Ring, if they could make it as an appealing option for Journeys to avoid the South Ring & JLT.

    The South Ring & Tunnel will never be able to be upgraded to 3 lanes or more, and with the future N28 & N22 schemes delivering more traffic onto the South Ring as it is and the Tunnel already at capacity levels it wasnt due to reach for years then a case has to be made for a proper bypass of Cork, not a commuter motorway.

    They made a half assed job of the South Ring with Roundabouts & iffy junctions in the 1990s, Dont repeat the same mistakes on the NRR!

    Hopefully common sense will prevail.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    Having a NRR is of no benifet only the few or so hundred vehicles a day that are coming from the N22 who want to get onto the N20.

    Same with N20 onto the N8 at Glanmire. Its a waste of money. most people from the N20 do not want to go back up a parellel road the N8.

    The north ring road currently there doesn't even comand that type of traffic the new ring road will be for. the new North ring road will be empty. The local NRR as present will not be much different even if the new NRR would be built. Childer's road in Limerick is almost an identical inner distrubutor road that of the Cork inner north ring road at present. Childers road example has actually got even more congested since Limerick opened it's southern ring road system. Limerick has even a greater number of through traffic trundeling it's streets than Cork.

    Secondly Cork is not really a ring road system. Like Dublin or Limerick. The Cork is a destination on the bottom of the country. Where as Limerick and Dublin on cross roads on seaboards, major river crossings and points between major cities. so radial system is needed. it doesn't really alieviate traffic, only removes long distance traffic in general. The M50 is an exception to the rule, as an urban jungle was created along it's corridor.

    What is needed
    is the upgraded South ring road interchanges.
    And proper public transport system

    The NRR will have zero effect on the Jack lynch


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious


    The South ring of Limerick will benifet as you well know that Limerick is on the crossroads of the Atlantic corridor. it will still remove only a few thousands cars from the city alone.

    What role is the NRR ?? blarney environs onto the glamire metroplis. It will just create unessessary urban sprawl. the traffic it would take from Cork city street would be a tiny blissmil fraction of what a ring road should take.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 49 Reenascreena


    mysterious wrote: »
    The South ring of Limerick will benifet as you well know that Limerick is on the crossroads of the Atlantic corridor. it will still remove only a few thousands cars from the city alone.

    What role is the NRR ?? blarney environs onto the glamire metroplis. It will just create unessessary urban sprawl. the traffic it would take from Cork city street would be a tiny blissmil fraction of what a ring road should take.

    Huge commuter volume coming in from the west from Bandon, Clonakilty, Ballincollig, Macroom. All forced through city or South Ring. I know because I'm one of them. There are massive traffic volumes using narrow country lanes and driving through housing estates on the North West side of the city trying to get to Limerick Road and Dublin Road. You don't know what you are talking about.

    There are serious road safety issues here which should be the primary concern.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    mysterious:

    I'm cynical enough to consider that the authorities haven't really studied the need for NRR or looked at what traffic would use it, but your own observations are very obviously just that. They aren't at all convincing. The fact that many of Cork's destinations are north of the city would in fact suggest a need for a northern section of ring. However, there's no more point to me just randomly observing by looking at a map either. What I do know from experience is that N20 traffic really needs to have an alternative to going into the city or struggling along the northern relief road. Maybe it's a higher priority to bring the South Ring around east of the city to the N20 I don't know (actually I'd say the priority is upgrading the N20 from Cork to Croom).

    As for Limerick, a lot of traffic is going through the city because a) the Southern Ring Road isn't complete - it only really serves the N20 and Raheen (to go from N7 to N18 by going on the SRR, N20 and through Raheen, and then into the city on the Dock Road is usually not worth doing, or even a stupid thing to do at particular times of day). b) the Southern Ring when complete will be a very large diversion for N7<->N18. Both routes are not exactly either side of the city - they are both slightly more northern, especially at the SRR terminii. So, in fact, Limerick will sooner or later also need a northern section to the ring road. The southern section obviously was the priority despite providing a poor N7<->N18 link, as the SRR does catch N20, N24 and (soon) N69. Although what they are thinking of putting in a diamond junction for N24 and turning the already disasterous cement factory roundabout on the N69 into half of a dumbell junction having to cater for citybound N20 traffic too (existing N20 to Childers Road access is being removed), I don't know. It's not going to be much fun to be honest when the SRR is finished because of this - it's likely a lot of N20 citybound traffic will not even use the N20 bypass but go back in on the old road, the R526. Crazy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭invincibleirish


    1.Whilst i will agree that the NRR project has not been fully thought out, i vehemently disagree with this notion that the South Ring on its own will suffice. even after Bandon/Sarsfield Roundabouts are cleared, there will still be the pinch points of the Dunkettle Interchange/Tunnel & the Bloomfield Interchange.there are few options to upgrade the link so alternatives need to be considered. be they public transport or roads.the N28 & N22 upgrades will only add further journeys onto the SR.(all those HGVS from the Relocated Cork Port going to the JLT? yikes!).

    2. the N20 coming to the city as it stands has 21k vehicles a day. with the eventual new N20 coming online & Blarney/Mallow population continuing to increase means that number will rise sharply, thats a lot of traffic to filter through a city. The NRR will mean reduced congestion in the city centre. as most of the Citys Amenities, places of employment & shopping centres are on the Southside an effective system of moving North/South Traffic needs to be considered.

    3. the Current NRR is wholly unsuitable. it isnt fit for the purpose described.

    4. a NRR beginning at a point on the N/M8 and dissecting with the N20 at Blarney and meeting with the N22 at Ballincollig will mean all journeys on the N/M8 destined For Corks Northern & Western Suburbs or For West & South Cork County will be taken out of the Dunkettle Interchange & JLT so statements like this:
    The NRR will have zero effect on the Jack lynch

    Are false.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    Ok I think I've had a bit of a revelation as to the current state of reclassifications.

    Many of us wondered why the N8 will only be reclassified to M to the southern end of the Fermoy bypass, when the road is motorway quality (at maybe 100kmh) to Dunkettle.

    Well, I guess the Watergrasshill By-pass should be re-classified at the very least - I haven't been on it, but from the images I saw, it appears like a full blown motorway with good sightlines.
    In the most recent spate of updates to the Cork RDO website they give details on possible junction treatments on the proposed NRR. The link with the current N8 north of Glanmire will be a vastly underpowered pile of nonsense and will have local access floating around. This could be why the N8 south of here will not be M. There will probably be no reclassification of any of the Cork Ring roads due to local access issues.

    I have to agree - what a b*lls-up! :mad: - It's so typically English that a ghastly little side road is proposed to join the rotary on the same side as the new NRR - that's not to mention the straight bridges on the rotary as opposed to the nice curvilinear ones in Dublin which are driver friendly and much better looking! Back to the junction in question - I think what's needed there is simply a trumpet design as someone has already mentioned.
    Also, the junction with the NRR and the current N20 at Killeens will be a three level stack, another stupid decision.

    ...and an unneccessary expense with the big overpass! The obvious thing would be a fully freeflow parclo junction like the N4-M50 Interchange in Dublin.
    This document contains only one of the potential routes, but the junction treatments are the same. Look at the N8/NRR junction, its an absolute shambles.

    http://www.corkrdo.ie/files/NRR-FIGS-25%20Junction%20Layout%20Yellow%20Route.pdf

    Unless the engineers come up with something better, this road may be a complete waste of time. Much of the traffic it will serve will probably be locally generated and therefore heavy - therefore, the junctions should be high powered!

    Regards!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,133 ✭✭✭mysterious




    Unless the engineers come up with something better, this road may be a complete waste of time. Much of the traffic it will serve will probably be locally generated and therefore heavy - therefore, the junctions should be high powered!

    Regards!

    Sorry but the traffic that would be generated at the N20 NRR would be afarce in compared to the N4/M50

    That comparison is like off the bloody wall of china!

    You are talking a "only" a few hundred maybe up to a few thousands cars going over this interchange onto to Glanmire. There is already a local NRR in the city.
    The outer ring road will deal with long distance traffic, and I'm sorry to tell you the long distance traffic is not that high, the interchanges are fine. The N8 at glanmire should be made a trumpet i do agree

    the current proprosal is actually 3 stack?? or my eyesight is blurr?mbut if it is then its a higher capacity than most interchanges built in Ireland at present.

    ye begrudgers, begrateful Cork doesn't have the traffic and population that Dublin has, so please give over the cribbing of a m50 style interchange all overr the facking city. Cork does not have a million people it does not have the capacity of long distance traffic that Limerick and Dublin handle every day!

    In fact I'd say your even lucky to get a second ring


    There is not many cities of the size of cork getting this amount of road investment, ye've done exceptionally well in comparison to other cities of Ireland of late.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    mysterious:

    Your rant is just that, a rant. And no-one even mentioned Waterford!

    Apart from anything else, the M50 junctions should have been freeflow from day 1. It wasn't sensible to have nearly two decades of daily traffic jams at the Red Cow. The current volumes on the N4, N7, M50 are not representative of the kind of volumes that require freeflow, they are *well* in excess. In fact, the current junctions being built may be underspec for the vast amounts of traffic now on the three routes. With tight loops, potentially lots of lane changing in short distances, single lanes on some movements and lacking in merge lanes in places it may well be that there are jams again daily at the junctions.

    Your derision is also based on the assumption that the N20 traffic volumes won't increase (and they are currently quite high at over 23,000 AADT near the Blarney junction), and more importantly, won't increase dramatically when they finally get round to DC between Croom and Cork. Even without new road there's 4% year-on-year growth to worry about - but with DC and better connections between Limerick (and Galway) and Cork, traffic will jump. If 4% year on year remained as is, not even increasing (as is likely even without DC), that would be near 29,000 AADT in just 5 years time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 49 Reenascreena


    mysterious wrote: »
    Sorry but the traffic that would be generated at the N20 NRR would be afarce in compared to the N4/M50

    That comparison is like off the bloody wall of china!

    You are talking a "only" a few hundred maybe up to a few thousands cars going over this interchange onto to Glanmire. There is already a local NRR in the city.
    The outer ring road will deal with long distance traffic, and I'm sorry to tell you the long distance traffic is not that high, the interchanges are fine. The N8 at glanmire should be made a trumpet i do agree

    the current proprosal is actually 3 stack?? or my eyesight is blurr?mbut if it is then its a higher capacity than most interchanges built in Ireland at present.

    ye begrudgers, begrateful Cork doesn't have the traffic and population that Dublin has, so please give over the cribbing of a m50 style interchange all overr the facking city. Cork does not have a million people it does not have the capacity of long distance traffic that Limerick and Dublin handle every day!

    In fact I'd say your even lucky to get a second ring


    There is not many cities of the size of cork getting this amount of road investment, ye've done exceptionally well in comparison to other cities of Ireland of late.

    There's no public transport in cork to speak of, and a city of more than 250,000 which it is in reality should have public transport.

    It's sad that these kind of debates always descend into short-sighted parochial nonsense in Ireland. For the record I'm not Irish and Dublin is a small city as far as I'm concerned. I have no regional axe to grind.

    What I do know is that driving into Cork everyday from the west side I see my family for an hour less every day than I would do if there was proper infrastructure in place.

    Keep your devisive small town attitudes to yourself and address the issues big city man.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭invincibleirish


    mysterious wrote: »
    Sorry but the traffic that would be generated at the N20 NRR would be afarce in compared to the N4/M50

    That comparison is like off the bloody wall of china!

    You are talking a "only" a few hundred maybe up to a few thousands cars going over this interchange onto to Glanmire. There is already a local NRR in the city.
    The outer ring road will deal with long distance traffic, and I'm sorry to tell you the long distance traffic is not that high, the interchanges are fine. The N8 at glanmire should be made a trumpet i do agree

    the current proprosal is actually 3 stack?? or my eyesight is blurr?mbut if it is then its a higher capacity than most interchanges built in Ireland at present.

    ye begrudgers, begrateful Cork doesn't have the traffic and population that Dublin has, so please give over the cribbing of a m50 style interchange all overr the facking city. Cork does not have a million people it does not have the capacity of long distance traffic that Limerick and Dublin handle every day!

    In fact I'd say your even lucky to get a second ring


    There is not many cities of the size of cork getting this amount of road investment, ye've done exceptionally well in comparison to other cities of Ireland of late.

    1. its the N22 NRR

    2. The NRR will take all traffic from the Western/Northern Suburbs of Cork and outlying County onto the N/M8 & back, Thats the Northside of the City, Blarney/Monard/Glanmire Suburbs, Ballincollig/Bishopstown and the outlying county (West Cork) why cant you comprehend this?

    3. can you provide numbers to back up your claims that the NRR will only take a few hundred cars?, you do realise this road passing through the aforementioned urban areas totalling in and around 100k population? thats more then Limerick or Waterford;) (i know i know the current boundaries dont reflect the full population of either area blah!)

    4. Cork isn the size of Dublin we know, but it isnt as small as Limerick or Waterford either.

    Cork needs a full Dual Carriageway Ring Road around the city linking up the suburbs, Metropolitian Cork as is has a population of 350 - 400k, in the years to come this is only going to increase. the South Ring/Tunnel/Dunkettle will be absorbing increased traffic numbers in order:

    N/M8: all the way to Portlaoise -more cars.

    N28: to facilitate the outlying Burbs of Carrigaline,Rochestown & Passage West as well as Cork Port & the Heavy industry in the area (thats Cork harbour, home of most of Irelands heavy industry). this means lots more cars onto the SR and lots of HGVs

    N22: more cars

    Now consider all those extra cars travelling to and from the Dunkettle/Tunnel with the current level of traffic. it is blindingly obvious Cork needs a proper bypass. the NRR can be that bypass.


  • Registered Users Posts: 577 ✭✭✭Typewriter


    So any more news on the progress of these projects?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,772 ✭✭✭Lennoxschips


    so the story is...

    there are more roads being built into cork, which bring more traffic, so we need more roads to deal with the new roads

    it's a self self fulfilling prophecy!

    the reality is that cork has in the last 20 years spent millions and millions on a failed spatial strategy involving satellite towns with feeder roads into the city. this has reduced quality of life and enriched property developers.

    it's time to stop going down that road (no pun intended) and start ploughing money into public transport, which has received next to no money in cork. what has been done in cork in the last 20 years in terms of public transport? a couple of solid lines and "LANA BUS" painted on the western road? that's about it really...

    cities the size of cork in europe don't have full motorway rings, and have much less of a traffic problem. they do have have proper planning procedures and investment in public transport


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  • Registered Users Posts: 577 ✭✭✭Typewriter




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,044 ✭✭✭AugustusMaximus


    Well, an update to part of the thread is that the N8 is being upgraded to motorway from 400m North of the Dunkettle Interchange to Watergrasshill aswell as the Ballincollig and Carrigtowhill bypasses being upped to 120kph.

    IMO, making Dunkettle fully freeflow is more important than doing the NRR.

    Anyone know what sort of junction we will get with the M8 at Glanmire ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    {THREADS MERGED ON 19/09/2010}

    Said I'd kick start a thread on this. As we know, the latest proposal from the NRA is to build the North Ring as part of the M20 Southern Section. The North Ring will link the HQDC Ballincollig Bypass to the M8 at Killydonoghue, which, for those who don't know, is where the Glanmire Bypass was tied into the Watergrasshill Bypass just south of the suspension pedestrian overbridge.

    A few questions:

    1) what N routes will the North Ring mainline consist of?
    2) the North Ring was supposed to merge with the M8 at an underpowered roundabout. I have heard that we will now get a free-flow interchange here, but I've yet to see the designs. Can someone supply a link?

    Post all news, links, EIS and route selection reports here.

    I'll start:-

    Route Selections and Brochures: http://www.corkrdo.ie/n22_northern_ring_road_publications.php


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    1) N22

    2) Unfortunately not, all we have are the hideous original plans.

    Take a look at these "designs" and try not to feel a sense of complete revulsion:

    http://www.corkrdo.ie/files/NRR-FIGS-25 Junction Layout Yellow Route.pdf

    Also, AFAIK, the CNRR section being built under the PPP contract only extends from the proposed Glanmire Junction to the proposed M20 junction.

    The Cork Western Ring Road will be built by someone else (God knows when).

    IMO it's a waste of time doing it this way. They may as well build the whole thing and get it over and done with. And while they're at it, throw the other two SRR roundabouts into one of the five PPPs. I mean, since we're going PPP on everything, may as well chuck in the lot. In for a penny, in for a pound... :)

    Also, good thread: this is a scheme I'm very interested in. Especially the interchanges - it's going to be complete free-flow at the Limerick end. Will they do the same here?

    Edit:

    Not the N22, but related. The NRA have finally acknowledged the M20:

    http://www.nra.ie/RoadSchemeActivity/CorkCountyCouncil/M20CorkLimerickMotorway/SchemeName,15738,en.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    It makes sense to do all this - including Dunkettle. When this is all done I would favour the opening up of the hidden GSG on the Glanmire Bypass (subject to viability) to decongest the R639 in the Glanmire and Riverstown areas. Any ideas what AADTs the proposed NRR would actually handle between the M/N8 and M20?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,219 ✭✭✭invincibleirish


    Unfortuntately i reckon the Western bit was lopped off for political convenience, it cheapens the cost of the project & quells any protests from locals around the scenic Lee Valley.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    Yes, the M20 south will only be the M20 to M8 link of the CNRR. I dont know if it'll be motorway itself though, probably not as there was no motorway order and no redesignation #3.

    I have to get on to Cork RDO or the NRA and find out if that godawful N8/NRR junction has been changed, thats an awful thing that is.


  • Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭norrie_1001


    Am I right in assuming that the interchange by Blarney will be of the triple stack kind? I have never seen one of these and was wondering are there any photos of such an interchange?

    As regards the interchange at Glanmire, it looks a bit awful alright.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976




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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    As regards the interchange at Glanmire, it looks a bit awful alright.

    Definitely does. But those plans were drawn up a while ago (2004 I think). I'm hoping after the whole M50 fiasco and the Dunkettle mess (which is going to be upgraded in the next 10 years or so I reckon), the NRA has the cop-on to go full-free flow from the off.

    According to the PPP documentation, the M20/N21 junction will be free-flow, the N22/M8 junction will be free-flow and the M20/N22 junction will be free-flow.

    But we don't know what they mean by "free-flow". Their definition could simply be a 3-stacked roundabout.


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