The Baptised need only apply

wolfpawnat

I have a 11 week old son and I have yet to get him baptised as I am not sure as to whether or not I want to.The main argument towards getting him baptised is the promise of getting him into the local primary school. This I feel is a form of religious blackmail.

Since Ireland is now a multi-cultural society, why does being baptised have such an influence in whether or not the child is considered for the school. Education is a basic but fundamental part of life in Ireland, why should it be denied because the parents are not in full support of the Catholic Church.

Am I right in saying it is unfair for a certain school to discriminate against a certain child just because the parents do not feel they should be forcing their child to believe something they don't. What about children that are not from Christian families, should they suffer too? I should mention I live in a rural area where there is not a large selection of schools to choose from.

bushy...

Complete blackmail afaics , the usual arguments for the whole shabby show don't hold much water either.

I suppose "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest" is almost apt

Tim Robbins

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Education is a basic but fundamental part of life in Ireland, why should it be denied because the parents are not in full support of the Catholic Church.

Because people who are non-religious are useless at making an issue of this.
The government will only do what the citizens make an issue of.

Am I right in saying it is unfair for a certain school to discriminate against a certain child just because the parents do not feel they should be forcing their child to believe something they don't. What about children that are not from Christian families, should they suffer too? I should mention I live in a rural area where there is not a large selection of schools to choose from.

Of course it's wrong. It's abject discimination. If it was done on skin colour it would be called apartheid. But it's still acceptable to discriminate on religious grounds.

Most Irish people don't give two hoots. Most non religious are happy to play the game, be a hypocrite rather than get behind campaigns run by organisations such as the educate together network or the humanist society.

My own Sister lives in London and wants her kids in a Catholic school because apparently it's a good school. So she's being a hypocrite and playing that game.

You could say she's a great parent for putting her kids education first or you could say she's complete hypocrite and is brain washing her kids.

Rev Hellfire

Blackmail is the wrong word. Its simple a reflection of the school system not changing sufficiently fast to match the changing social dynamic of Ireland.

In the end of the day its a non-issue, which will get sorted out in due time as new schools come online.

For you the real issue is determining what school would be best for your child and taking the steps required to ensure they get in ahead of other children. If a bit of water on a forehead will assist in securing a place ahead of those who haven't then I'd do it. And I have for one of my kids to ensure they got into the school I selected and didn't for the other which didn't require it.

dreamlogic

If I was in that situation I'd be planning on moving to some other part of the country within the next five years... It's awful that the church still has such a stranglehold on the national education system!

Nevyn

It is not that the baptised need only apply, any parent can apply on the behalf of thier child, it is that if there are only 30 places and there are 31 children and one of those is
not baptised or of the parish then they will be the one to not get a place.

IF there are places spare the schools will take any child to get the captiation grant to keep the school running.


It is a shítty system.

dvpower

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

In the end of the day its a non-issue, which will get sorted out in due time as new schools come online.

Maybe in urban areas (and not for a long time), but in rural areas this problem is going to remain for a long, long time to come.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

If a bit of water on a forehead will assist in securing a place ahead of those who haven't then I'd do it.

Me too. But my fear would be that by doing this I give up my right to contradict the school on the religious instruction that they subsequently give to my child.

Rev Hellfire

dvpower wrote: »

But my fear would be that by doing this I give up my right to contradict the school on the religious instruction that they subsequently give to my child.

You're free to contradict whatever they teach at home, its nothing I'd lose sleep over. imho.

dvpower

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

You're free to contradict whatever they teach at home, its nothing I'd lose sleep over. imho.

Its not an ideal situation. My child gets tought something in religion class. I contradict this at home. Now she is going to be conflicted; someone must be wrong. I won't lose sleep over it, but it is something that I'm going to have to deal with.

philologos

OP: You don't have to have your son baptised to bring him to school. The Catholic ethos promotes Catholics first to schools, likewise with COI but as far as I know there is room for unbaptised children. Particularly in COI, I went to school with several people who weren't baptised at the time (they were Pentecostals mind but point still stands). There are also significantly less COI in the population so you may want to enquire if there is a COI school nearby to find space. Also enquire about Educate Together if you can.

I don't think it's "unfair" or "apartheid" that faith schools can determine that people of their faith can enter first. However if there is demand (and there clearly is) the Government should be providing secular education.

As for non-Christian children having a problem with a school with a Christian ethos. Infact statistics that have been received in the UK, suggest that religious minorities would prefer a more Christian based society to a secular one.

getz

Jakkass wrote: »

OP: You don't have to have your son baptised to bring him to school. The Catholic ethos promotes Catholics first to schools, likewise with COI but as far as I know there is room for unbaptised children. Particularly in COI, I went to school with several people who weren't baptised at the time (they were Pentecostals mind but point still stands). There are also significantly less COI in the population so you may want to enquire if there is a COI school nearby to find space. Also enquire about Educate Together if you can.

I don't think it's "unfair" or "apartheid" that faith schools can determine that people of their faith can enter first. However if there is demand (and there clearly is) the Government should be providing secular education.

As for non-Christian children having a problem with a school with a Christian ethos. Infact statistics that have been received in the UK, suggest that religious minorities would prefer a more Christian based society to a secular one.

no matter what anyone says, the catholic church still runs the republic as one irish minister said ;i am a catholic first and a irishman second ;in the uk all religious schools have to, before they get goverments grants ,have to provide a number of places for children of other religions,i noticed a few weeks ago in manchester that a catholic church girls school was asking[in the newspapers ]for non/catholic girls

getz

getz wrote: »

no matter what anyone says, the catholic church still runs the republic as one irish minister said ;i am a catholic first and a irishman second ;in the uk all religious schools have to, before they get goverments grants ,have to provide a number of places for children of other religions,i noticed a few weeks ago in manchester that a catholic church girls school was asking[in the newspapers ]for non/catholic girls

The Catholic Church still has influence in Ireland, but nowhere near what they used to have. To say otherwise is just living in the past. Only in the real rural areas of small villages do you see any real religious power still evident, and even then that's crumbling, as younger people replace the older in position.

I am a Catholic but like many Irish People it doesn't mean much to me. Lets just say that a religious schooling doesn't encourage belief all that well. At least for me, and the friends I still have from those days. :rolleyes:

seamus

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Most Irish people don't give two hoots. Most non religious are happy to play the game, be a hypocrite rather than get behind campaigns run by organisations such as the educate together network or the humanist society.

Actually, there's a massive amount of support for the educate together schools, they're flourishing. But their numbers are still limited and nobody wants to drive across the city/country every morning to drop their kids to school, they'd rather send their kids to the best school within a reasonable distance. By all accounts, very few people opt for the local religious school when there's an educate together available.


The humanist society are getting more support, but it's slower. Irish people are still guilty about faith and are happy to simply not open Pandora's box and admit their Atheist/Agnostic leanings, rather opting for the, "Yes Ma, I'm Catholic", approach and forgetting all about it when they go home.

silverharp

We didnt baptise ours , the way I look at it you get one chance to raise your kids and we thought it was important not to show our kids that we just bend in the wind. Principles are important.

Ziggurat

silverharp wrote: »

We didnt baptise ours , the way I look at it you get one chance to raise your kids and we thought it was important not to show our kids that we just bend in the wind. Principles are important.

Whether people agree or not with what you did, you deserve to be applauded for this.

Rev Hellfire

Quinine wrote: »

Whether people agree or not with what you did, you deserve to be applauded for this.

Why ? For doing the 'right' thing.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

philologos

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Would you applaud believers for doing what fits best with their own beliefs? Just out of curiosity.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I agree

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Rev Hellfire

Principles are fine, but I wouldn't let them get the way of securing the best future for my children. Sometime you have to take a hit for the team.

But each to their own I guess.

Ziggurat

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Why ? For doing the 'right' thing.

For sticking to his/her principles. These days, it seems people are all too quick to sell their beliefs to the lowest bidder. I didn't want to make a judgement either way on what they did, just to note that such conviction is increasingly rare.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Principles are fine, but I wouldn't let them get the way of securing the best future for my children. Sometime you have to take a hit for the team.

But each to their own I guess.

Believe me, I understand what you're saying but is it right to have your child baptised and then turn around and tell them it was just to get into a school?
Not just that but isn't just a little bit insulting to Catholics to have their beliefs denigrated like that?

Thinking about what you've said, and considering the situation with regards schools in this country, I have to wonder if I sound high-and-mighty or idealistic.

Rev Hellfire

Quinine wrote: »

Thinking about what you've said, and considering the situation with regards schools in this country, I have to wonder if I sound high-and-mighty or idealistic.

Perhaps a bit more principled than most

Mena

We were in a similar situation a number of years ago. I won't have my child baptised and I will not, for any amount of money, send her to a school with a religious ethos.

So we moved. I even ended up changing jobs. Nett effect is that she is in an ET school I am happy with and will remain so.

However, and this is going to be the real test... What happens in secondary school. Leaving the country to get her into a school acceptable to myself and the wife is still on the cards.

Yes, we feel that strongly about it.

tolteq

I think you should just go with the flow. its only for like primary and secondary. when u get to university you make ur own religious choices.

these people who say your a hypocritical are hypocrites themselves. we all make hypocritical statements. big deal.

rainbow kirby

tolteq wrote: »

I think you should just go with the flow. its only for like primary and secondary. when u get to university you make ur own religious choices.

these people who say your a hypocritical are hypocrites themselves. we all make hypocritical statements. big deal.

If people keep "going with the flow" in cases such as this, there will never be any change in this country.

philologos

I don't know rainbow kirby, I think tolteq makes a lot of sense. Starting university is a key moment when people start defining who they are. Many only start considering Christianity when they attend university. Many only start to understand it. Of course people also reject it. This is why I don't see going to faith schools as indoctrination, as one eventually does have to make reasoned decisions for themselves.

Of course secular schools should also exist as an alternative, but there is no reason why faith schools should be closed unless there isn't a demand for them.

rainbow kirby

I never said that they should be closed, I just don't see why atheist/agnostic parents should feel pressured to go along with religious indoctrination just for a school place for their children. Unfortunately, too many non-religious parents do end up having to go through with the Catholic formalities just to be able to get a school place, which is wrong. It's also possible to be very certain of a rejection of religion long before university - I know that I was certain that I was an atheist while I was still in primary school.

philologos

rainbow kirby wrote: »

I never said that they should be closed, I just don't see why atheist/agnostic parents should feel pressured to go along with religious indoctrination just for a school place for their children.

I wouldn't refer to it as "indoctrination". But I agree that if parents don't want their children to be raised in Christianity they should be able to get a school place local which doesn't advocate religious belief.

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Unfortunately, too many non-religious parents do end up having to go through with the Catholic formalities just to be able to get a school place, which is wrong. It's also possible to be very certain of a rejection of religion long before university - I know that I was certain that I was an atheist while I was still in primary school.

I think it is possible to reject religion before university. However a lot of people only start considering it around then.

As for rejecting religion at primary school age, I always remain skeptical of this as I am unsure of how much people actually understood Christianity at that age. I know I certainly didn't. Infact reading the Bible was a huge eye opener compared to anything I had learned at school.

I would also argue there is a difference between the faith of a child, and the faith of an adult. I would also differ between childhood consideration of Christianity and adult consideration of Christianity.

Joey the lips

I want to approch this seriously so dont start biteing the sh1t of me but explain this to me! If a church of ireland school opened next door to me I would not send me my child cause I am not church of ireland! So why is it that someone who I presume has decided to give religion a miss feels they should send there child to a catholic school....? Its seems confusing

I think the problem is there is lack of non denominational schools available but thats surly not the catholic school systems fault.

The arguement me has always been well why cant my non catholic child go to a catholic school! Simple becuase you chose to raise your child as a non catholic!

Whats the problem????? Confused!

silverharp

Joey the lips wrote: »

I want to approch this seriously so dont start biteing the sh1t of me but explain this to me! If a church of ireland school opened next door to me I would not send me my child cause I am not church of ireland! So why is it that someone who I presume has decided to give religion a miss feels they should send there child to a catholic school....? Its seems confusing

I dont see that its confusing , from your perspective sending your child there would be like a positive choice , like sending a child to a gaelscoil. You would see the school as reflecting your values. But I guess in many cases the local catholic school is just a school , the assumption is that the religious values are self contained within a half hour RE class twice a week etc.
It comes down to the fact that religion is so mundane and ritualised here that people who are obviously agnostic will still go through all the rituals just to fit in if they even get that far in their thinking.

philologos

silverharp wrote: »

It comes down to the fact that religion is so mundane and ritualised here that people who are obviously agnostic will still go through all the rituals just to fit in if they even get that far in their thinking.

I agree with you here. We need to change how we do church, keeping it Biblical but at the same time allowing ourselves to be able to reach out to people within our societies more effectively.

These rituals at one time were filled with meaning. People have cheapened them as time as gone on probably unintentionally by thinking it was "just the done thing". This tradition and unwillingness to change in some respects had made the church irrelevant for some.

This is applicable to many denominations of Christianity.

InFront

I think the problem is there is lack of non denominational schools available but thats surly not the catholic school systems fault.

Most of the schools in Ireland or affiliated to one faith or another as you say. I am sorry, but if people really were concerned about this fact, you would see a genuine and common pattern of a co-operative effort within communities to get non-religious schools up and running. I am not talking about a handful of ET schools, but a real and comprehensive countrywide movement.
If it means as much to people as we seem to hear about on boards, where is the effort? People set up and fund organisations all the time. How much does it cost to run a school between, say, fifty families?

Secondly to the gentleman who changed jobs to send his children to a non-religious school and says he will consider emigrating in order to provide the atheist experience for his children. I would suggest you consider what Jakkas said about people ultimately defining their own religious beliefs regardless of schooling or upbringing.

What if, after all your efforts, your children become evangelical christians?

The educational system is just one influence on a child out of many influences that are impossible to control no matter how much you may try including the childs own individuality and faith. I am sure it is something all of us here have had to decide upon, one way or the other regardless of what our parents or teachers believed.
Furthermore, to that poster and those who agree with him, I'd be interested to know in what type of schools did you receive your education and why are you not all blindly faithful or religious?

Thirdly, although it is certainly true that schools were under less pressure ten years ago, I received some of my primary education in a Catholic affiliated primary school despite not being Christian. Not only was I not "indoctrinated", I was taught about all religions, and in fact given books on my faith and extracts to read on my faith from the mainstream catholic religious book!
So if principle is so important here, and discrimination so rife, I personally would like to know where all of the Jews, Muslims and Hindus who have had to change their faith are? Is it only atheists who are having their principles compromised?

Joey the lips

silverharp wrote: »

I dont see that its confusing , from your perspective sending your child there would be like a positive choice , like sending a child to a gaelscoil. You would see the school as reflecting your values. But I guess in many cases the local catholic school is just a school , the assumption is that the religious values are self contained within a half hour RE class twice a week etc.
It comes down to the fact that religion is so mundane and ritualised here that people who are obviously agnostic will still go through all the rituals just to fit in if they even get that far in their thinking.

I am not talking about that. Your reducing the thread to an arguement about the merits of religion. What I said was why would I apply to a prostant school when I am not prodestant simulary whay would I apply to a catholic schools when I am not catholic.

The local catholic school is not just a school that is the fundamental problem. You need to be catholic school to get in!

Watch this

"It comes down to the fact that religion is so mundane and ritualised here that people who are obviously agnostic will still go through all the rituals just to fit in if they even get that far in their thinking"

You could be talking about catholic prodestant or muslim here it has no bearing.

I am convinced that problem is lack of non denominational schools and it has been turned into a catholic thing of "Oh the catholics dont want me!"

It seems daft really! Why cant I as a catholic equally obnject because sending a non catholic to my school will effect the time i have for religious education! I wont cause its a daft arguement!

getz

Joey the lips wrote: »

I am not talking about that. Your reducing the thread to an arguement about the merits of religion. What I said was why would I apply to a prostant school when I am not prodestant simulary whay would I apply to a catholic schools when I am not catholic.

The local catholic school is not just a school that is the fundamental problem. You need to be catholic school to get in!

Watch this

"It comes down to the fact that religion is so mundane and ritualised here that people who are obviously agnostic will still go through all the rituals just to fit in if they even get that far in their thinking"

You could be talking about catholic prodestant or muslim here it has no bearing.

I am convinced that problem is lack of non denominational schools and it has been turned into a catholic thing of "Oh the catholics dont want me!"

It seems daft really! Why cant I as a catholic equally obnject because sending a non catholic to my school will effect the time i have for religious education! I wont cause its a daft arguement!

every child in the EU has a right of education,if the only school in the area refuses to take the child in /because of /bottom of list/not of that religion/it is then up to the goverment to provide the education-one of the ways to force religious schools to take non domoninational children is to withdraw subsidy to the school, it is also the right of the parent to take a goverment [if not meeting EU directives] to take the matter further[what ever that means]

Joey the lips

getz wrote: »

every child in the EU has a right of education,if the only school in the area refuses to take the child in /because of /bottom of list/not of that religion/it is then up to the goverment to provide the education-one of the ways to force religious schools to take non domoninational children is to withdraw subsidy to the school, it is also the right of the parent to take a goverment [if not meeting EU directives] to take the matter further[what ever that means]

agree!

The goverment will not force any school but your right the simpleist ways are attach conditions to funding! leaving it up to the school to decided to accept the conditions with the funding

so is it fair to say the title of this thread should be "Why has the goverment not provided non denominational school education"

rather than a rant at the fact that you need to be baptised to get into catholic school!

silverharp

InFront wrote: »

Furthermore, to that poster and those who agree with him, I'd be interested to know in what type of schools did you receive your education and why are you not all blindly faithful or religious?

I had the typical religious school upbringing, I now have a passive Atheistic position, I have not had my kids baptised (unles nana did an Ersatz on them lol). They will be going to a non denominational school and I dont mind either way what they believe in this respect when they grow up.
Why didnt I just go with the flow? becaue I would find it irritating to express christian beliefs in public when I wouldnt believe what I am saying.

silverharp

Joey the lips wrote: »

It seems daft really! Why cant I as a catholic equally obnject because sending a non catholic to my school will effect the time i have for religious education! I wont cause its a daft arguement!

I wish they would, it would settle the issue, it's like George Bush joining the green party so that he can use their facilities. Would you want him in your party.
I am not reducing it a religous disucssion, but purely comparing the state religion with say the green party and noting the obvious difference in reasons for membership.
It comes down to the fact that a sigficant amount of people join the "club" but have no logical follow thorugh hence the inertia in reforming the educational system.
People just are not logical in their beliefs, some of my wife friends are "religious" but at the same time are big into mediums etc.

Joey the lips

Here is a question which always vexes me more!

If religion only began at 18, ie everyone that had children said, right I am catholic and my husband is but I am going to allow my child to wait till there 18 then techanically all of this would not be a problem becasue there would be no religious order till your 18 right!

If your not practising your religion now what chance do you think a child has who has never there whole life?

Thats the first element

The second element - If you send a child to a catholic school and all the kids make there communnion confirmation because they have followed there religious study Is this fair that as a parent you have subjected your child to this discimination!

My belief is raise a child as a catholic and allow them the choic when they are 18 a bit like your mothers have done with you.

getz

silverharp wrote: »

I wish they would, it would settle the issue, it's like George Bush joining the green party so that he can use their facilities. Would you want him in your party.
I am not reducing it a religous disucssion, but purely comparing the state religion with say the green party and noting the obvious difference in reasons for membership.
It comes down to the fact that a sigficant amount of people join the "club" but have no logical follow thorugh hence the inertia in reforming the educational system.
People just are not logical in their beliefs, some of my wife friends are "religious" but at the same time are big into mediums etc.

this [and lets not beat about the bush ] religious schools problem is going to get a lot worse over the next few years as more and more people move away from the church,and as ireland with its new immigrant/ethnic population increases/ questions may well be asked -why is my tax money going into propping up church schools -when there is no room in the school for my child/because he is not of their religion ?

Joey the lips

getz wrote: »

this [and lets not beat about the bush ] religious schools problem is going to get a lot worse over the next few years as more and more people move away from the church,and as ireland with its new immigrant/ethnic population increases/ questions may well be asked -why is my tax money going into propping up church schools -when there is no room in the school for my child/because he is not of their religion ?

I worked on a school board thats not how funding works

2/3 rds come from the state 1/3 from the parish!

everyschool is entitled to apply for the 2/3rds the funny thing is most of it is taken back in taxes

I think multi denomination schools will increase but as for catholic schools changing. why should they! I would not encourage it. As i say i am catholic. If you want your child to go to a catholic school raise him as a catholic and let him choose when he is 18 what he wants. Like you did!

on my last paragraph .... relax but that is what you will meet... Going forward!

getz

Joey the lips wrote: »

I worked on a school board thats not how funding works

2/3 rds come from the state 1/3 from the parish!

everyschool is entitled to apply for the 2/3rds the funny thing is most of it is taken back in taxes

I think multi denomination schools will increase but as for catholic schools changing. why should they! I would not encourage it. As i say i am catholic. If you want your child to go to a catholic school raise him as a catholic and let him choose when he is 18 what he wants. Like you did!

on my last paragraph .... relax but that is what you will meet... Going forward!

i was born a long time ago 1940 i was a catholic but went to a church of england school, the difference between catholic/muslim schools and c e schools is that the c e schools do not have religious teachers/no nuns/brothers ect teaching just proper state reg teachers/prayers in the morning was just was the lords prayer/any religious studies consisted of reading the new testament, for some of the children a catholic priest would come in to give them their religious teachings [within the c e school buildings] can any of you imagine a catholic church in ireland allowing a protestant priest takeing prayer on church premises ?no lets keep religion out of school education

philologos

Joey the lips wrote: »

If religion only began at 18, ie everyone that had children said, right I am catholic and my husband is but I am going to allow my child to wait till there 18 then techanically all of this would not be a problem becasue there would be no religious order till your 18 right!

I think this is stupid also. Children should be raised in a religion if their parents have certain beliefs. This is an introduction to allow themselves to decide later when they are 18.

Joey the lips wrote: »

If your not practising your religion now what chance do you think a child has who has never there whole life?

You'd be surprised. People do come to Christianity in their adulthood without having heard any beliefs before. This is why evangelism is important.

Joey the lips wrote: »

The second element - If you send a child to a catholic school and all the kids make there communnion confirmation because they have followed there religious study Is this fair that as a parent you have subjected your child to this discimination!

If you are a non-Catholic it shouldn't really matter anyway. If there is no alternative to the school it is better to have them educated and opt out of these rites rather than send them to another school. I think if there is a sizeable amount of a minority in a school there should be a mechanism to have their religious leaders come to instruct too. For example if there are 10 Jews in a school why can't the time left aside for confirmation and communion be given to bar / bat mitzvah training.

Joey the lips wrote: »

My belief is raise a child as a catholic and allow them the choice when they are 18 a bit like your mothers and fathers have done with you.

I agree. I've made a visible edit in your post though

Running Bing

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I have a 11 week old son and I have yet to get him baptised as I am not sure as to whether or not I want to.The main argument towards getting him baptised is the promise of getting him into the local primary school. This I feel is a form of religious blackmail.

By any chance is it a Christian school?