How do I 'word' this letter re maintenance?

Communicator

Hi All, My son's father has never been involved in his life - it has been his own choice. I've tried to facilitate the relationship (written the odd note with new address etc) but never got a reply.
My circumstances have recently changed - I have had to take a huge cut in salary to get and keep a permanent job (yes, I know I am blessed that I got a new job recently!).

Anyway, I had been thinking of going back to court to apply for more maintenance as I was awared 70pw in court when my son was 4 (before he started school) My sons dad has never contributed anything towards school/xmas/birthhays etc. My son's afterschool care alone is €130pw.

I know his dads job is safe and secure - he bought an 09 car recently and is cohabiting with his partner, who's job is also safe and secure (I know people who know them) and so, luckily for him he is in a good financial position.

So I've been advised by a solicitor (friend) to write to my sons dad and ask for an increase before I go down the legal route as the family law courts are full of parents who have recently lost jobs and can't afford maintenance.

As part of a recent l'ifechange' for me, I've learned to forgive him for abandoning his son (although I'm aware that it's not really my place to forgive that one) and so I don't want to commit anger or bitterness to paper when I write to him. You can imagine what I'm tempted to write, but as myself and my son are doing wonderfully now, I really just need more money for day to day stuff like soccer practice and swimming.

So how to say 'Can your son have more money please or I'm bringing you back to court' in a NICE, non-threatening way???? Thanks alot

eddie.fandango

Hey OP,

Personally, I don't think you are under any obligation to be "nice", in fact, his may misconstrue this as being a request rather than a necessary demand. I think the main point you should convey to him is that it is FAR easier for him to cough up the extra money than to get wrapped up in legal issues. Excuse the bluntness, but he obviously wants nothing to do with you or his son, so as long as he gets the message that you could potentially see a lot more of each other, I think he'll be will willing to pay more.

Communicator

Thanks for the reply eddie.

I don't feel obliged to be nice to him. I have just been caught up with so much anger and hurt over the years that it led me to illness and I don't ever want to have those feelings again. I'm 'better' now and truly believe that it's his loss and all the other cliches that are said about men like him.

So do you suggest I'm blunt and to the point as in 'Rather than going down the legal route, I would like x amount increase?' or something? How detailed would I need to be? Do I need to give costs for my sons swimming etc???

What I'm hoping for is that he agrees to an increase based on my letter, but that should we end up in court, I can show a judge my (non threatening) letter and state that I tried to have an amicable arrangement.

Oryx

Tell him you are not writing to create any bad feeling, but through necessity. The financial downturn has hit you and it you now need him to assist more. You dont want to go down the legal channels and all the hassle that involves for both parties, and you would appreciate his understanding in the matter.

Keep it cool and businesslike. Like a letter to someone you dont know at all. Set out what you would like, and why you need it. Set a reasonable timescale for him to reply. Insist that all is done through regular channels so that if you two ever do end up back in court he has an accurate record of what he paid, if he does agreee to up your payment voluntarily. -Show him you are willing to play ball, in other words. Reiterate that you would prefer not to take him back to court as you understand that it would be liable to create more bad feeling.

Mr. Incognito

I would include a list of your son's average expenses. If his afterschool care is 130 per week include a receipt in there too.

Show him what you need the money for and how much you think is fair.

Get your solicitor mate to proof read it as you'll need an objective view and it'll be handy if you do have to go the legal route for him to have a copy of the letter on file.

Communicator

Thanks again.

He is currently building a pretty big granny flat type thing and his current partner is now on the deeds of his house - in our previous court meeting, she wasn't on any paperwork and so he based all his outgoings on one salary. However, now there are (obviously) two salaries going into the house.

Should I mention that I know any of this? I'm guessing that IF he replies (which I doubt), he'll state that he has no money etc etc and can't afford an increase.

eddie.fandango

Respectfully, I don't agree with some of the previous posts' points. I don't feel that you should list specific expenses off; you are NOT pleading with him, you are demanding that he fulfils his moral and legal obligation; to provide his son with financial security.

If he wants to know exactly why you need the increase:

A: He must be living under a rock.
B: You can give him a list of weekly expenses.

I understand that you've let go of your anger, that's great to hear. The point that I was trying to make is that you could come across as apologetic or pleading if you are too nice. I agree with Oryx; keep it cool and businesslike.

Best of luck Op

The Corinthian

Actually, I'd almost write what you wrote in your 1st post here as it sounds very reasonable.

(Disclaimer: even if reasonable, there may be so much bad blood there that nothing will sound reasonable to him).

Communicator

Thanks again eddie.

"you are demanding that he fulfils his moral and legal obligation"

What you don't understand about this 'man', is that he has had to be dragged to court five times for maintenance - each time I got a minimal increase. So I doubt that me telling him that he needs to fulfil his moral or legal obligation will have ANY impact on him!!! But I do get the point where you say I shouldn't appear to be pleading.

Today is a good day. On a bad day, I want to drive down to his house and drag him out by the scruff of the neck and rob his wallet. But I don't feel like that today. Thankfully;)

Thanks again for replies, really appreciated.

LegacyUser

I think you should just lay it out clearly. Explain as you have done here. Point out your difficulties and his obligations, without mentioning the legal recourse. Highlight that it would be easier if you could both come to an agreement. Don't mention the legal end of things if you can avoid it. My own mother took years to go after maintenance and when she finally did my father was horrified that she did and could. The court order meant the maintenance was deducted at source. Not knowing your situation I can't say but I know a number of people who had "understandings" and were eventually forced to threaten the legal route over low or no maintenance.

Communicator

"Disclaimer: even if reasonable, there may be so much bad blood there that nothing will sound reasonable to him)."

There is ABSOLUTELY bad blood on his part.

I've risen above it in recent years though and will always facilitate a relationship with him and his son, should he ever make contact. I do that not because of my recent sainthood but because I love my son and honestly believe that no child should have to grow up without a parent, just because the parent decides they are not interested in a relationship with him. Having said that, I'd say hell might just freeze over before it happens.

So a straight to the point letter...I think I'll start it right about now!

fabfemale

Hi Communicator,

I've been down this road, unfortunately, and I'm delighted to hear you've turned a corner as far as your anger goes. I'm the same myself, it's much better to concentrate your efforts on your kids than on someone who doesn't give a crap really.

I had to take my son's father to court 11 times in ten years - it took him that long to realise that I wasn't going away and he wasn't going to shirk his responsibility. Since our last Court date (over five years ago), he's been on his best behaviour and paid up on time. Its not a huge amount per week, but it's Court ordered and guaranteed.

If I were you, I'd keep it short and simple. Say what you've already said - your financial situation is not what it used to be and your outgoings for your son are quite high for childcare alone, before you pay for anything else. Say that you feel an increase in maintenance is appropriate at this stage and ask him for his suggestions. If you're not happy with what he comes back with, then let him know you have no choice but to issue a maintenance summons, and then do it straight away. There's nothing like an impending Court date to focus someone's mind and let's face it, you've been carrying the can for a long time and will be for the foreseeable future. You're not being unreasonable and it is his responsibility to maintain his son. Be firm but fair and if he gets nasty or shuts down, get that summons off asap.

LadyE

I would just be short and factual, I wouldnt give any of your outgoings, he prob knows what a child costs.

If you have been to the family courts for X amount of times with the father of you child then getting a casual (as not a court order) increase from him may not be the best thing for you to do (he may not pay the same everyweek, or mess you around with it "The court order only specifies x").

If he does agree to an increase you would be better off also going to the court, to get this added onto the court order that is the new amount that is going to be paid weekly/monthly.

All you have to do is go to the court and get a summons for him varying maintenance and the time in court should just to clarify the increase, should be very quick!

mountainyman

You need to get the increase agreed and then get it on file at the family court for your area. You should look to double what you are currently getting.

If he won't agree just go back to court as your son's father's means have improved the maintenance will also increase. I don't see why you would especially want to avoid court after all you had to go there before.

It is not a punishing or a reason for anger. It is an administrative process. As for his claim that he has no means the court seeks the interests of the child and will have the old files (and yes judges do read those files).

jells bells

If I were you, I wouldn't even mention your own personal situation. Your pay situation is none of his business. If he hasn't shown himself to have a strong moral compass in this regard in the past, why would he now?

Basic fact is that he should be obliged to pay a fair share towards your child's costs. As these costs have increased, so too should his contributions. You haven't indicated that he's been accommodating or reasonable in the past, so just stick to the facts of the matter.

Communicator

...and the reason I hadn't mentioned that he's been accomodating is because he hasn't!!! Each time he cornered me outside the court promising the sun, moon & stars (I'll see my son, I'll be a father). You have to understand that even though I am an intelligent woman and I am fully aware of this mans treatment of me in the past (not physical, emotional) that when you hear your child ask about his dad and then you hear his dad say 'Right, I'll be his dad', I cave everytime. Needless to say, the next day he'd changed his mind and I had agreed to a paltry increase based on the fact that he'd 'BE' a dad.

Anyhooo..I've the letter half written. Factual and to the point. I DO want to point out somewhere though that although I have tried to facilitate a relationship with his son, he is obviously not interested...perhaps a bit off the point of asking for maintenance increase but I need to say it...

The Corinthian

Taking into account that I know nothing about the history behind you and your child's father, something that fabfemale posted did hit me, in that it seems obivious that this guy is now attempting to live his own life and no doubt would want to avoid a situation, as with fabfemale, whereby he is dragged into court once or twice a year for the next few decades.

As such proposing a long term solution, and calling it as much, might be a good idea. He may not like the idea of paying more, but if it means he can get on with his life, he may agree to it. Otherwise, from his perspective, he might as well fight it and make you pay dearly for every cent you extract as otherwise he is only encouraging you to 'come back to the well' whenever you need (or want) some more money.

Probably not a suggestion that will engender a lot of sympathy from some here, but if you're looking for a negotiation angle, that is one that comes to mind.

Shivers26

There is an excellent spreadsheet on www.solo.ie that you can workout your child expenses on - it is very detailed and literally covers everything. In theory your sons father should be paying the figure given here.

I understand the economy is doing nobody any favours right now but I would definitely not mention the fact that you know he is building an extension, their secure jobs etc. Leave the overly personal stuff out. It is not about yours or his personal finances, it is a payment to maintain the child.
As you said, there is bad blood there so be prepared for the 'he doesnt need to do swimming / football lessons' or whatever. It is still better to keep it out of court if at all possible

Maybe include a line at the bottom 'X (Childs name) is now in x class in school and doing really well. He enjoys x and x in his spare time. I hope that someday you will find it in yourself to take an interest in him, he is wonderful child and it is a shame you have to miss out.

My son and his father only started having a relationship when my son was 7 but there has been regular contact since then (3 years). He cut contact when son was a baby so I suppose there is always hope there. The main thing is to keep the door open.

Communicator

"As such proposing a long term solution, and calling it as much, might be a good idea"

I don't really understand what you mean by this? Long term solution as in 'If you give me X amount now, I'll leave you alone forever???'

Is that what you mean?

Thanks for that link shivers - I'll have a look. Your story makes me hopeful that my son might meet his dad at some point. Leaving my feelings for him aside I feel my son has a right to know him.

The Corinthian

Communicator wrote: »

I don't really understand what you mean by this? Long term solution as in 'If you give me X amount now, I'll leave you alone forever???'

Is that what you mean?

Something like that. As I said, I know nothing about the history of your situation, so I will simply take things at face value from what you've said, which is that he has no interest in being a father (may even have rejected the notion) and has his own, separate, life and partner.

If this is the case then he has two concerns; firstly is that he minimize the cost of maintenance and secondly that his legal situation does not become a millstone that stops him from getting on with his life.

If so, coming to him for an increase will only be agreed to if that increase is minimal or if it guarantees that he will be left alone. If it is not minimal, if what you are seeking is what he can judge - or is advised - to be comparable to what you would get out of him in court, then he will see you in court as he has nothing to lose and dragging you through court, making things as difficult as possible, will make you think twice about going down that road again.

If, as has been suggested, you seek to double your maintenance to €140 from him, this would bring you very close to the €150 limit (unless you go to a higher court). As such, the worst case scenario for him in court is pays €10 p.w. more than if he agrees to such double the figure, otherwise he breaks even on your figure (and drags you through court) or even does better. Financially he has very little to gain by agreeing with you.

However, he will not want a situation whereby you go to him every few months, year or possibly even every few years. As such, while he may not normally agree to a higher increase without a fight, he may if you tell him that it will mean that you will not bother him again (naturally working future inflation into the figure) or at least not for a set number of years.

Bare in mind, this presumes he's uninterested in being a father and just wants to get on with his life. If so the only card you have to play against him is legal harassment. Sorry if I sound rather cold blooded in my assessment.

Communicator

He is uninterested in becoming a father to this child. He has another child from a previous relationship whom he sees. I got pregnant. He said he didn't want to know (after a 2yr relationship). I made a decision to have the child and he stuck to his decision.

I'm not getting into the why's and wherefores of this with you as I can tell by your tone that you might know someone in a similar situation or perhaps even you have a child with someone and have chosen to 'get on with your life' as you so simply put it. I won't even ask 'what about the child who grows up fatherless' because his father has chosen to 'get on with his life'.

What I will say is that's a good idea about asking for a double your money and I'll leave you alone scenario. As a man with no morals or emotion, I'm guessing that might just work with him.

Having said all of the above, what about when my child is 15 and knocks on his dads door (because he will) and his dad says 'Ah, your mam said if I paid her double, I'd be in the clear...'

Could't live with myself. No. The letter will ask for an increase alright but there will be no 'Get out of jail free' clause.

The Corinthian

Communicator wrote: »

I'm not getting into the why's and wherefores of this with you as I can tell by your tone that you might know someone in a similar situation or perhaps even you have a child with someone and have chosen to 'get on with your life' as you so simply put it. I won't even ask 'what about the child who grows up fatherless' because his father has chosen to 'get on with his life'.

TBH, I'm not really interested in getting into my perspective on such scenarios as all I am doing is trying to help. Please don't use me as a proxy for your ex.

What I will say is that's a good idea about asking for a double your money and I'll leave you alone scenario. As a man with no morals or emotion, I'm guessing that might just work with him.

If it achieves your goals, then go for it.

Having said all of the above, what about when my child is 15 and knocks on his dads door (because he will) and his dad says 'Ah, your mam said if I paid her double, I'd be in the clear...'

That's his problem. Maybe he'll be dead. Maybe he won't open the door. Maybe he will and his account of events will differ to yours. Buggered if I know.

Could't live with myself. No. The letter will ask for an increase alright but there will be no 'Get out of jail free' clause.

Do what you think best. Based upon your description of the father, I gave practical advice related to negotiation. Up to you as to what you want to do with it.

Communicator

dont use you as a proxy for my ex??

Please!!!!

Thanks for advice people - letter is almost written with advice from here - I'll get back if I get a reply.

Thanks again

Femelade

Not meaning to put dampener on your situation, but i doubt you will get anymore money off him...if he pays 70 a week, that is more than half the amount of after school care. you are lucky to get that much.

Communicator

But what about all other costs associated with raising a child?? Surely his school uniform/books/food/heating/lighting/etc should be taken into consideration??? Afterschool care is 2.30 til 6 mon-fri...what about the rest of the time?

Femelade

I know what you are going through..i am a single mother of an 8 yr old girl.
I get €30 a week.....and thats only since jan of this yr...
They always find a way around not paying it.

Communicator

mmmmmmmmmmmm...........I still think it's worth a letter and a trip back to court based on what I know about his current income......

Femelade

well best of luck, i hope it works out for you, get back to us and let us know how you got on.

Communicator

Will do, and thanks again - always good to hear others perspective on things. I'll be back...

DamagedTrax

speaking as a single father who has done the court thing i'd suggest that you write a polite letter telling him that your situation has changed (no need for details) and that you need an increase. keep the anger out of it as it ALWAYS leads to someone getting their back up and then the inevitable tit for tat.

if he doesnt repond in a way that suits your situation then you still have the court option but i could nearly guarantee you that if he receives a strongly worded letter full of "demands" he sounds like the kind of guy that will turn you down just out of spite.

good luck and i hope it gets sorted for you as these situations are always a weight on the mind :-S

Communicator

thanks for that.

The letter is written and it's polite alright. Just stating the facts of the maintenance awarded 4yrs ago and that X had started school since and my circumstances had changed and that I have no alternative but to ask for an increase to X amount. I've listed my sons outgoings etc and said I can provide receipts if he requires them. Last line says something like 'X is a great kid and is into this and that - perhaps someday you'll decide to form a relationship with him.'

That's it. I'll give it until the end of the month to see if he replies. Doubt it though.

DamagedTrax

Communicator wrote: »

thanks for that.

The letter is written and it's polite alright. Just stating the facts of the maintenance awarded 4yrs ago and that X had started school since and my circumstances had changed and that I have no alternative but to ask for an increase to X amount. I've listed my sons outgoings etc and said I can provide receipts if he requires them. Last line says something like 'X is a great kid and is into this and that - perhaps someday you'll decide to form a relationship with him.'

That's it. I'll give it until the end of the month to see if he replies. Doubt it though.

the letter sounds fine

it still baffles me when parents (mother OR father) have no interest in their children

i went thru hell with my sons mother (and im not just blaming her.. i was probably twice as bad) but it never stopped me wanting to see my boy. and luckily she had enough sense to seperate our issues from my relationship with my son.

anyway, good luck with it all.

Communicator

I'm the queen of baffled!!

I'm often embarrassed to tell people that my son doesn't even KNOW his dad. I'm sure they imagine a 'scumbag' in a 'shiny tracksuit' with absolutely no disrespect intended here for scumbags OR shiny tracksuits
Of course I have friends who's kids don't live with their dads...but ALL of them at least KNOW their dads.

But this is a 'respectable' man in his 40's with a great job, lovely home, big car etc etc. He has chosen to completely shut down thoughts of his son. I'm obviously aware that it's because of me and not my son. He has chosen to put his hatred for me (because I kept the child) ABOVE any feelings he could develop for his son.

But do you know what? It's his loss! I ended up the winner - I've this fab little boy who makes me smile every single day...yes it's been tough but I've given up wondering how or why his dad isn't involved. Now I just accept it for what it is and wish I had more money!!

RuailleBuaille

Kudos to you OP, I hope it works out for you. And you're so right, it is his loss.

username123

Well done Communicator, the only advice I can give is get someone totally impartial (preferably who doesnt know the dad) to read the letter and make sure you havent used any emotive tones in it.

Best bet is to keep it businesslike.

On the last bit Id just change the 'perhaps someday you'll decide to...' bit into,
'x is a great kid, into this and that, we live at address above should you ever wish to become a part of his life'.

Just think using the words 'should you ever wish to' is more like an offer in a totally non confrontational tone - the 'perhaps youll decide' just rang a little guilt making when I read it. Feel free to ignore - just how I read it!!!

Good luck!!

Andy-Pandy

Hey OP, are you in contact with his parents? Do they see there grandchild? Would they be able to help you in anyway? If not financely, perhaps they could shame him into seeing/paying his kid.

Communicator

Unfortunately my ex didn't have a good relationship with his parents or family so although they met my son once when he was tiny, they've shown no interest in him since that time. Having said that, they wouldn't know where to find me and they're elderly.....there are also aunts & uncles & cousins his own age who don't know him...sometimes it makes me sad and sometimes it makes me angry. But you can't force people to become part of your (my sons) life if they choose not to...

thanks for advice there 123...to be honest I'm not even sure if he'll read right down the the end of the letter but I get your point about it appearing like a guilt trip. Might just change that sentence.

Am determined to post it today though...

DamagedTrax

Unfortunately my ex didn't have a good relationship with his parents or family

thats a kind of telling sentance right there. who knows, maybe the guy has issues that are blocking him feeling anything for his son? (not trying to defend him at all.. i just thought it made a little more sense)

Communicator

Funny you say that damaged because as I was typing it I was thinking 'Maybe this explains it...'

Having said that, I didn't have a good relationship with my mother and am not particularly close to my family either - but I genuinely believe that it's made me a better parent because I don't want my son to feel how I felt as a kid.

So I get that you're not defending him, I really do. But I don't believe that it's an acceptable reason for him to reject his son.

Life has changed so much in the past 30 odd years - people now genuinely realise that we don't have to accept that the way we (in the 60's or 70's for example) were treated as kids, is the way kids SHOULD be treated in today's society.

Anyhow, I just got the heads-up from my solc friend who said to go ahead and send the letter....I'm nervous at the very thoughts of buying the stamp! But I'll do it.

goodmum

If I was you I'd just write down exactly how much you need and why you need it. I wouldn't get emotional at all or talk about your son to him. He has obviously decided he doesn't want to be involved in his sons life - which astounds me - and unfortunately, you may just have to accept that.

I'm in a similar situation except my daughter is older and asking many, many questions. I've been reading your post and want to wish you the best of luck.

LegacyUser

i read with interest to all the points of view on this matter of seperate parenting.. unfortunaly i am one of the other sex that apparently becomes downtrodden when financial matters come to the fore....
i have a son with a girl who preferred to leave father unknown on all official documents to benifit from the kindness of the government, (lone parent) and i foolishly agreed, contributing every month to my son and spending more time with him than parents at home might do, unfortunaly times have changed and the decline in wages and work has left me in serious financial circumstances that to continue with this contribution is impossible for me but if i dont pay, i dont see my son, her words. apparently i have no rights to my son?
is she been extremely mean, should i take this to the courts or does she just show women of a certain demise to be so evil?
i must add, i am a father of the times and realize children are not free, i do want him to have the best in the world and want for nothing, i spend what i can on him but what can a man do if he can't afford his financial parent responsibility.... come on you ministers and wake up to the real picture....

Splendour

Communicator wrote: »

Thanks again.

He is currently building a pretty big granny flat type thing and his current partner is now on the deeds of his house - in our previous court meeting, she wasn't on any paperwork and so he based all his outgoings on one salary. However, now there are (obviously) two salaries going into the house.

Should I mention that I know any of this? I'm guessing that IF he replies (which I doubt), he'll state that he has no money etc etc and can't afford an increase.

Hi Communicator, I was in court a couple of months ago and my ex husband is living with his girlfriend. They are living together in a house bought between them but the courts only took his (false) salary into the equation. Also despite my ex having paid 90 euro off his mortgage last year, my maintenance has gone down from 350 euro a month to 200 euro a month. Tbh, I think you're wasting your time mentioning his partner's income.
Having said that-maybe give it a shot. I hope it works out for you.
God bless.

Communicator

I'd forgotten my thread - just an update.

So I wrote the very polite letter back in May/June...and I got a stinker of a reply. What he said was 'You made a choice. Irish Law dictates that I must pay for your choice until it is 18. I do not now and will not ever want a relationship with your child'.

It said other, more vindictive stuff. I cried for about a week. But then I got myself off to the courts and we're back in court next month for an increase in maintenance.

I am a firm believer in karma and truly believe that anyone who could write such awful stuff about their own flesh and blood must be a very, very sick individual.

DetectivFoxtrot

Communicator wrote: »

So I wrote the very polite letter back in May/June...and I got a stinker of a reply. What he said was 'You made a choice. Irish Law dictates that I must pay for your choice until it is 18. I do not now and will not ever want a relationship with your child'.

it? IT??? what an absolute scumbag!!!! he needs a good kicking. :mad:

Well at least you gave him the option of the easy/friendly route.... I hope the courts make him pay more than what you were asking. that'll learn'm

Communicator

My sentiments exactly.

Like I said, I cried for a week that he could call my child 'it'.

He will die roaring.

uoluol

What an evil B*****d.

I wish you success in the court - and hope to God that Karma kicks in pretty quickly.

LegacyUser

What an evil, sick person this man is. You must have been broken-hearted OP. To think that your childs father would write that down. What kind of human being could say that (in writing)? I read this whole thread and I remembered it from a while ago...I also wish you the very best of luck in court. I hope the judge takes him for every penny - you deserve it!

Xiney

DetectiveFoxtrot, please do not advocate violence in Personal Issues - you may, however, refer to the bio dad as an arsehole. That's allowed