Religious differences

LegacyUser

Hi there!
I need some advice, and I felt I should turn to y'all first before I say anything to friends or family, coz I'm afraid of what they might say.

The background to this problem is as follows. I'm in my late 20's, as is my boyfriend. I'm Irish and a Catholic and my boyf is from the Middle East, living in Ireland, and from a Muslim background, but would say he is "non-religious". We've been together nearly a year now and religion has never been an issue. We talked about it early on and agreed to respect each other's backgrounds and beliefs, which was fair enough. I go to mass when I feel like it and my boyf celebrates his holy days with his family.

This was all well and good until recently. We've been talking a lot lately about THE FUTURE, getting engaged, marriage, kids and all that jazz. On Saturday night my boyf announced that any children we would have would not belong to either of our religions, that since we had different religions this would be the sensible thing to do. We would teach our children right from wrong but they would not have any blessings/sacraments or anything like that. I was totally taken aback. I can understand how "logically" this would make sense, but then there's very little logical about religion.

I know it's all hypothetical at the moment. We are not married, there are no children involved and we are still just dating. But this is a serious issue for me. I'm not the world's best Catholic, but I do have faith, I pray and I go to church occasionally. Religion is part of my life. I love my boyf v much, as he says he does me, but I don't know if it's fair to continue talking about a future together if I can't bear the thought of any children I may have not being baptised. My boyf says he is "non-religious" so it wouldn't bother him if his children didnt go to the mosque.

Please someone tell me there is a middle ground somewhere. Maybe we were naiive to think that religion would not be an issue between us. I would welcome any stories from anyone who has gone through something similar. I hope what I've said makes sense and sorry if I went on a bit.

PS To the Mods, if you think this would get a better response in a religious forum then please move it, but it's currently a relationship issue for me.

Thanks.

Mr. Incognito

Religion doesn't seem to be an issue for him but it seems to be an issue for you.

There's nothing to do but bite the bullet, sit down with him and have this chat again.

Lollipops23

honestly?i think he's dead right. he's not disrespecting your religion by asking this, he's saving you both a world of trouble. they're both very different religions, and could potentially clash terribly if you tried to emmalgumate them.

You could carry on worshipping in whatever way you see fit, as can he, but i believe that this would be the best way for the kids.

crotalus667

Sorry but there is no middle ground , you want A he wants B , I have to say that I am with him on this one , sorry but indoctrinating children is just wrong , if the baptism thing is what bothers you , you can do it yourself (check cannon law if you want , it will tell you that any lay person can perform it) , when you are all on your own with the child (it’s not like the child will remember) and keep it to your self.

Faith

Baptism doesn't have to take place shortly after birth. You could bring up your children in a non-denominational way, but educate them about both of your religions. Then if the kids decided one religion sounded good to them, they'd be free to persue it themselves.

I think he's right to be honest, and I don't think you should push him to have any kids baptised or anything.

Beruthiel

Speechless wrote: »

I know it's all hypothetical at the moment. We are not married, there are no children involved and we are still just dating. But this is a serious issue for me. I'm not the world's best Catholic, but I do have faith, I pray and I go to church occasionally. Religion is part of my life. I love my boyf v much, as he says he does me, but I don't know if it's fair to continue talking about a future together if I can't bear the thought of any children I may have not being baptised. My boyf says he is "non-religious" so it wouldn't bother him if his children didnt go to the mosque.

Please someone tell me there is a middle ground somewhere.

It would seem to me that your b/f's suggestion above, is, in fact, the middle ground. And a great one at that imo.
However, I'm an atheist and am looking at it from the outside.
Giving your kids the choice to make that decision on their own is fantastic and is truly respecting their right to choose. I applaud him. I think it a wonderful compromise.
I did not push any religion on my daughter. I allowed her to grow up teaching her the difference between right and wrong and letting her make her own decision as an adult.

You would do well to go back and discuss this with him again.
Do not under any circumstances get married and have children until you have both come to a concrete decision.
It must be sorted now or it will cause you a lot of problems later down the line.

PS To the Mods, if you think this would get a better response in a religious forum then please move it, but it's currently a relationship issue for me.

tbh, I wouldn't know which religious forum to move it to, except maybe the Atheist & Agnostic one, for a totally outside view.

Anyway people, this is not a discussion on religion, so do not go down that path.
Please stick to the topic of how they can resolve this.

btw OP, sometimes, something like this cannot be resolved if both of you cannot come to an agreement.
It all depends on what you feel is more important to you, your b/f, or your religion.

LegacyUser

Thanks for the replies. Like I said I know his suggestion is the "logical option". I just needed to have some totally unbiased, outsider views on it. My family and friends are all Catholic. My mother, I can well imagine, will be horrified at any (still imaginary!) grandchildren of hers being raised in a non-Catholic household, never mind non-religious.

At the end of the day it is down to myself and himself. I'm sure we will have many more discussions about it. I do love him and we do see our future together. I knew it wouldn't be plain sailing when it came to this issue. I just need to get my head around it.

Thanks again. Please keep the comments/advice rolling in.....

Beruthiel

speechless wrote: »

My mother, I can well imagine, will be horrified at any (still imaginary!) grandchildren of hers being raised in a non-Catholic household, never mind non-religious.

This is not about your mother or what she wants. It should certainly have no baring on the outcome of your decision.

-lala-

Your boyfriend is dead right - he HAS found the middle ground. As someone said, the child(ren) can always be baptised when they are older if they decide they want to be.

Liam Byrne

Without prying (and as such this is a hypothetical questions which I want you to ask yourself - we don't need to know the answer) are you planning on having sex with your b/f before you are married ?

You also say that you "go to mass occasionally" - not every day.

So you are - technically - not a 100% Catholic.

All I'm saying is that it's easy to say "I'm XXXX" or "I'm YYYY", but most of us DO "pick and choose" and as such are not 100% in line with the teachings of our religion.

That's not being critical; it's just a fact.

So your b/f's stance is the perfectly logical one; and it would actually be the healthiest one for any child, regardless of their circumstances. Unfortunately we don't allow that in Ireland.

The bottom line is to teach the child right and wrong, and give them enough knowledge to make up their own mind.

Your mum doesn't come into it, really......and she might even surprise you; she hasn't objected to your b/f, has she ?

Best of luck!

sourwine

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Without prying (and as such this is a hypothetical questions which I want you to ask yourself - we don't need to know the answer) are you planning on having sex with your b/f before you are married ?

You also say that you "go to mass occasionally" - not every day.

So you are - technically - not a 100% Catholic.

All I'm saying is that it's easy to say "I'm XXXX" or "I'm YYYY", but most of us DO "pick and choose" and as such are not 100% in line with the teachings of our religion.

Oh my. What year is this? 19..? I don't think that anyone lives strictly to the book...

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So your b/f's stance is the perfectly logical one; and it would actually be the healthiest one for any child, regardless of their circumstances. Unfortunately we don't allow that in Ireland.

Ok, I did not know this as I am not from Ireland in origin. Is it indeed not allowed having a child and not having it baptised? :eek: So it indeed feels like 19..

OP, I think your boyfriend made a pretty good suggestion to be honest. I had a relationship with a muslim, it was going for a year and when talking about our future he said there is no way around me converting to his religion, because children will always have the religion of the mother and that's why I can't have his children while I am catholic. And he was claiming he was non-religious. Sorry, I am aware this was an individual and does not stand for all muslim men but it shocled me at the time.

Your boyfriend is not too proud of his own religion and he doesn't want to force any religion on the kids, so that's fair enough I'd say. His opinion sounds quite modern and tolerant.

LegacyUser

OP i am not very religous but it doesnt seem a very good solution. If you were marrying a catholic would you raise your kids as catholics? if he was marrying a muslem would he raise his kids as moslems? but because you are mixed you raise them as neither?

LegacyUser

Hello again.

Beruthiel - I know this is not about what my mother wants. I'm just saying I can imagine the row that will ensue if I discuss it with her.....at some point in the future. And who likes fighting with their mammy?

Liam Byrne - I think I said in my original post that I'm not "world's best Catholic", definitely a pick and chooser. I realise the irony in saying I would like my children baptised because I am a Catholic, but then having pre-marital sex, even tho as a Catholic I should be saying "no thank you" and tightening up my chastity belt.

sourwine - thanks for the story of your experience.

Again, thank you for the comments. I'll talk to the boyf again, and we'll work it out.

Lollipops23

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So your b/f's stance is the perfectly logical one; and it would actually be the healthiest one for any child, regardless of their circumstances. Unfortunately we don't allow that in Ireland.

i beg to differ, i know several people who have chosen not to baptise their kids and everything is hunky dorey because they feel it's the best choice for them and their children. it's perfectly allowed, perhaps not by a few old biddies but fortunatley they they don't make up the majority of the country!

Dord

sourwine wrote: »

Ok, I did not know this as I am not from Ireland in origin. Is it indeed not allowed having a child and not having it baptised? :eek: So it indeed feels like 19..

No, that's wrong. You don't have to baptise your children. If that was the case then what would people with other religions in Ireland do? baptise their children as catholic first? Gimme a break! :rolleyes:

It seems to me that "Liam Byrne" is just spouting off a load of catholic stuff... and making some other stuff up. Anyways... sorry for the departure off topic..

OP, I think your bf's idea is a very good one. The child could at some stage still be a catholic, if they chose to. They could also be buddhist, muslim, or whatever other religion they choose to follow. I think that deciding your childs religion is somewhat selfish.

The best option I see now is that you sit back down with your bf and explain your feelings on this. But, from what you say at the end of your first post I don't think that the conversation would have a good ending.

Queen-Mise

speechless wrote: »

Thanks for the replies. Like I said I know his suggestion is the "logical option". I just needed to have some totally unbiased, outsider views on it. My family and friends are all Catholic. My mother, I can well imagine, will be horrified at any (still imaginary!) grandchildren of hers being raised in a non-Catholic household, never mind non-religious.

At the end of the day it is down to myself and himself. I'm sure we will have many more discussions about it. I do love him and we do see our future together. I knew it wouldn't be plain sailing when it came to this issue. I just need to get my head around it.

Thanks again. Please keep the comments/advice rolling in.....

I disagree completely with the previous responses to your post. Take a look at a thread in the Personal Issues forum, and there is a similar problem with a couple who are agnostic - under pressure from both sets of parents to baptise their child.

This is a really serious position you are in, you are a practising Catholic dating a Muslin (practising or not). This relationship may be serious, and may turn to children, marraige etc etc.

The middle road is no compromise, when it comes to religion. As you said baptism, communion, altar serving, confirmation are important to you. Your boyfriend is asking a lot, no matter how reasonable the request, to give up all that for 'something reasonable'. Now I am not mocking the other posters, this is important.

This takes a turn even more complicated. Lets just say, you concur with the middle road. The first baby arrives, your mother wants Catholic, and his family start putting the pressure on for a Muslin reared child. And then your boyfriend and you are torn against two completely different religions and cultures.

Again I am not saying that cross-cultural doesn't work (it obviously does), but OP this is really, really important and does need to be sorted out.

As you said the two of you do need to sit down and work it out. Best of luck with the situation.

Piste

I think you should agree to have your kids decide. Now by all means if they see you go to mass and say "mummy where are you going?" you're perfectly entitled to say where you're going and why, and if they want to come with you then let them, but don't have them baptised or bring them to mass before they're old enough to decide to go themselves. Let religion develop organically, would it not mean more to you to have a child with genuine faith rather than one who is only "catholic" cos they're told to be?

bug

As many poster's have said his proposal is a fair one, and really the only fair option considering the circumstances.

Secondly, get it in writing.

I have personal experience of this agreement being made before and it doesn't quite work out that way, even from the most secular parties.

sourwine

Dord wrote: »

No, that's wrong. You don't have to baptise your children. If that was the case then what would people with other religions in Ireland do? baptise their children as catholic first? Gimme a break! :rolleyes:

Ok, thanks for putting that clear.

mikemac

Isn't there some rule handed down by the Pope in the last century, that in a mixed marriage, the Catholic has to agree to raise the children as Catholic

I'm just saying you're local Parish priest might be asking you to agree to something here. Or telling you to do it!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interfaith_marriage_and_Christianity

Inter-Church Marriages

The Catholic church requires permission for mixed marriages, which it terms all unions between Catholics and baptized non-Catholics (Eastern Orthodox and many Protestants), but such marriages are valid, though illicit, without it: the pastor of the Catholic party has authority to grant such permission.
The distinction between baptized and unbaptized arises because the Catholic church recognizes all young children who are validly baptized, even in a Protestant denomination, to be Catholic until they consciously apostasize.
The baptized non-Catholic partner does not have to convert. Historically, the baptized non-Catholic partner had to agree to raise the children Catholic, but under current rules only the Catholic spouse must promise to do so.

And I don't think you're going to ask to your PP to do the ceremony, make a commitment and disregard it immediately?

Talk to them, they'll know all about this

philologos

Speechless wrote: »

The background to this problem is as follows. I'm in my late 20's, as is my boyfriend. I'm Irish and a Catholic and my boyf is from the Middle East, living in Ireland, and from a Muslim background, but would say he is "non-religious". We've been together nearly a year now and religion has never been an issue. We talked about it early on and agreed to respect each other's backgrounds and beliefs, which was fair enough. I go to mass when I feel like it and my boyf celebrates his holy days with his family.

Great stuff. Religion is meant to be a positive rather than a negative. Just to let you know, the majority response on this thread will not be a Christian one. I understand your concerns and interfaith marriage seems a difficult prospect in many cases but it can work.

Speechless wrote: »

This was all well and good until recently. We've been talking a lot lately about THE FUTURE, getting engaged, marriage, kids and all that jazz. On Saturday night my boyf announced that any children we would have would not belong to either of our religions, that since we had different religions this would be the sensible thing to do. We would teach our children right from wrong but they would not have any blessings/sacraments or anything like that. I was totally taken aback. I can understand how "logically" this would make sense, but then there's very little logical about religion.

Well, just because he says something doesn't mean that you have to agree with it. I personally would find this compromise a bit too difficult to make. Teaching children right from wrong at a Christian level revolves around what God has commanded for us to do, and how God thinks we should interact with others within the world. If you don't feel comfortable with it, don't compromise your beliefs. Your children have the right to know about Jesus and everything else by which you would teach them as a Christian normally.

Speechless wrote: »

I know it's all hypothetical at the moment. We are not married, there are no children involved and we are still just dating. But this is a serious issue for me. I'm not the world's best Catholic, but I do have faith, I pray and I go to church occasionally. Religion is part of my life. I love my boyf v much, as he says he does me, but I don't know if it's fair to continue talking about a future together if I can't bear the thought of any children I may have not being baptised. My boyf says he is "non-religious" so it wouldn't bother him if his children didnt go to the mosque.

You don't have to be the worlds best Catholic, or the worlds best Christian. However if religion is a part of your life and if you have a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ, there is no point in denying that. That's a part of who you are, and it's a part of who I am. If he cannot love you for who you are, then there may be a fundemental issue in the relationship.

crotalus667 wrote: »

Sorry but there is no middle ground , you want A he wants B , I have to say that I am with him on this one , sorry but indoctrinating children is just wrong , if the baptism thing is what bothers you , you can do it yourself (check cannon law if you want , it will tell you that any lay person can perform it) , when you are all on your own with the child (it’s not like the child will remember) and keep it to your self.

If this were indoctrinating children I'd agree. However, it's about giving children the choice to accept Christianity, and then when they are older they can decide for themselves.

Piste wrote: »

I think you should agree to have your kids decide. Now by all means if they see you go to mass and say "mummy where are you going?" you're perfectly entitled to say where you're going and why, and if they want to come with you then let them, but don't have them baptised or bring them to mass before they're old enough to decide to go themselves. Let religion develop organically, would it not mean more to you to have a child with genuine faith rather than one who is only "catholic" cos they're told to be?

This isn't a good idea I don't think. OP, if your children do not hear about Christianity and if they aren't taught about it they won't be as likely to accept it in the future, or they won't even consider it an option.

I think the OP is not only entitled to tell them "where they are going and why", but she has the right to bring them if she wishes. As for growing organically, I don't think this makes sense. The suggestion here is to raise children of religious parents in a non-religious environment. I think the only solution here is for the OP to teach their children about Christianity, and for the OP's OH to teach them about Islam. They can decide with both options having been clarified.

Genuine faith grows out of discipleship and encouragement from parents, family and friends.

LegacyUser

Hello OP -Please be careful. You would be amazed how many mixed marriages between Christian woman and Muslim man start off before the marriage and before the kids with the man saying he is not very religious/traditional.

Unfortunately, things do not always remain that way. It is not at all unusual after the marriage/kids born for things to take a very different turn and the man suddenly becomes very traditional. That means traditional Muslim roles expected.

Sometimes when the woman disagrees, the kids end up dissappeared back to the Middle East.

I know that people dont like to admit this as it is not seen as being politically correct but the real story can be like that.

cch

OP, if/when you get married, how do you imagine that day happening? Catholic, Muslim, mixed or a secular/civil ceremony? I would think the answer to that would be consistent with the answer regarding baptism...
If this hasn't come up in the conversation then maybe it should...?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Unregistered wrote: »

Hello OP -Please be careful. You would be amazed how many mixed marriages between Christian woman and Muslim man start off before the marriage and before the kids with the man saying he is not very religious/traditional.

Unfortunately, things do not always remain that way. It is not at all unusual after the marriage/kids born for things to take a very different turn and the man suddenly becomes very traditional. That means traditional Muslim roles expected.

Sometimes when the woman disagrees, the kids end up dissappeared back to the Middle East.

I know that people dont like to admit this as it is not seen as being politically correct but the real story can be like that.

I've heard about this kind of thing but I'm open to the idea that its scaremongering. That said I'm friends with a Muslim and he says a lot of Muslim men see their life after marriage as a fresh start and become more traditional then. I think you're right to point this out to the OP

prinz

Faith wrote: »

Baptism doesn't have to take place shortly after birth. You could bring up your children in a non-denominational way, but educate them about both of your religions. Then if the kids decided one religion sounded good to them, they'd be free to persue it themselves.

Exactly right on the timescale of things. As a Christian in this country the RCC here certainly has a tendancy to rush the sacraments, compared to other countries.

Beruthiel wrote: »

It would seem to me that your b/f's suggestion above, is, in fact, the middle ground. And a great one at that imo.
However, I'm an atheist and am looking at it from the outside.
Giving your kids the choice to make that decision on their own is fantastic and is truly respecting their right to choose. I applaud him. I think it a wonderful compromise.
I did not push any religion on my daughter. I allowed her to grow up teaching her the difference between right and wrong and letting her make her own decision as an adult.

Sounds good, however I would contend that as an atheist, you actually raised your daughter as an atheist.... much like a religious person raising their child in their religion.So it is unlikely she would have any interest in exploring religion later in life, without some education or fostering of an interest in her early years.

Beruthiel wrote: »

You would do well to go back and discuss this with him again.
Do not under any circumstances get married and have children until you have both come to a concrete decision.
It must be sorted now or it will cause you a lot of problems later down the line.

Cannot restate the importance of the above advice enough times.

Dord wrote: »

No, that's wrong. You don't have to baptise your children. If that was the case then what would people with other religions in Ireland do? baptise their children as catholic first? Gimme a break! :rolleyes:

While it is true that you don't have to, there are many difficulties down the line in this country for non-baptised, or indeed non-religious children.

Dord wrote: »

It seems to me that "Liam Byrne" is just spouting off a load of catholic stuff... and making some other stuff up. Anyways... sorry for the departure off topic..

Yes it was offtopic. And he did not spout of anything, merely, I gather, trying to get the OP to relfect on the importance of religion in her life. It is a good point, is it wise to put her relationship in jeopardy for a half-hearted interest in catholicism, that is probably the result of her own upbringing moreso than any active commitment on behalf of the OP herself.

There are far worse courses to take than educating the children at home on religous matters and exposing them to both faiths, part-time relgious being one. The majority of kids in this country get baptised, get first communion, get confirmed, but rarely if ever see the inside of a church for the rest of their lives. Personally I'd rather their parents not abuse the sacraments in this way, for whatever reason.

Darr3nG

Another thing to think about is your future kids' education. The catholic church still has a big say in many of the primary schools in this country.

I had to furnish baptisimal certs to get my kids onto a waiting list for the school I wanted.

Plus, with the majority in classes being catholic, it can be hard for others to go through communion / confirmation times with their friends. I know with the increase in other religion's, schools are better prepared for this now.

Beruthiel

Unregistered wrote: »

It is not at all unusual after the marriage/kids born for things to take a very different turn and the man suddenly becomes very traditional.

This happened to a good friend of mine.
He was very relaxed about his religion, it didn't seem important at all.
They got married, they had a child and wham, he turned into a traditionalist. Total shock to her, she didn't see it coming.
Ruined their relationship with his insistance that the child be brought up a muslim.

marie_85

I think the boyfriend's solution is the best one. But then again, I intend to raise my kids (when I have them) in a non-religious way, and I definitely won't be sending them to a Catholic school. I think it's perfectly reasonable to avoid baptising children, and allow them to make up their own minds when they're old enough to fully decide if they want to participate in a particular religion.

SeekUp

crotalus667 wrote: »

if the baptism thing is what bothers you , you can do it yourself (check cannon law if you want , it will tell you that any lay person can perform it) , when you are all on your own with the child (it’s not like the child will remember) and keep it to your self.

I wouldn't go down that road -- performing a sacrament that you know your partner doesn't want and keeping it a secret (from both him and your child)? Yikes.

Jakkass wrote: »

As for growing organically, I don't think this makes sense. The suggestion here is to raise children of religious parents in a non-religious environment. I think the only solution here is for the OP to teach their children about Christianity, and for the OP's OH to teach them about Islam. They can decide with both options having been clarified.

That's a great point, I think -- to teach about everything, instead of teaching about nothing. It's the same idea with any kind of education, when you think about it; you start out with a little bit of knowledge in a broad range of subjects and then you can decide where you want to focus - if you're interested in anything at all. I'd also think that it can't do any harm to expose your children to various religions and beliefs . . . if nothing else, they're learning to be a bit more tolerant and respectful of something different than what they might see/be exposed to on a day-to-day basis.

herya

Jakkass wrote: »

I think the only solution here is for the OP to teach their children about Christianity, and for the OP's OH to teach them about Islam.

But my understanding of the OP's post is that her bf is not involved in Islam and does not wish to teach his child any religion, Islam included.

philologos

herya wrote: »

But my understanding of the OP's post is that her bf is not involved in Islam and does not wish to teach his child any religion, Islam included.

It's his perogative not to get involved in Islam, however to insist that his wife doesn't teach his children (and her children too) about Christianity is unreasonable. Secularism isn't binding on the domestic nor should it be.

shellyboo

Jakkass wrote: »

It's his perogative not to get involved in Islam, however to insist that his wife doesn't teach his children (and her children too) about Christianity is unreasonable. Secularism isn't binding on the domestic nor should it be.

He didn't insist that they teach them nothing about Christianity, he asked that they not be involved in any blessings or sacraments. Huge difference.

OP, I think what your bf has proposed seems fair - but maybe he doesn't know how strongly you feel about it? Don't be afraid to tell him what you've told us - you're probably afraid of coming off a bit hypocritical, but the best route is to be honest with him. He may not mind you wanting to have the hypothetical children baptised at all, as long as they're not practising Christians.

herya

Jakkass wrote: »

It's his perogative not to get involved in Islam, however to insist that his wife doesn't teach his children (and her children too) about Christianity is unreasonable. Secularism isn't binding on the domestic nor should it be.

That's why it's good they discuss it now to either find a compromise or to split if she can't get him to agree (if it's so important to her). I find his compromise suggestion very good - the children will be able to choose on their own when they grow up. There is enough religion related information in the society and educational system for them to be fully briefed on their options.

I was one of these children baptised just in case & to please the granny. It was never of any use to me, I never had faith and it bothers me that I was signed up for something I have no easy way out from. I never had any problems being non religious and my granny gave up when she saw no interest. But technically I am still a Catholic which bothers me as I "count" in statistics, social debates etc. Hypocrisy of a highest degree.

Let the children choose, they will be grateful if they are allowed to discover their faith themselves.

LegacyUser

Speechless wrote: »

On Saturday night my boyf announced that any children we would have would not belong to either of our religions, that since we had different religions this would be the sensible thing to do. We would teach our children right from wrong but they would not have any blessings/sacraments or anything like that. I was totally taken aback.

They ALL say that at the beginning, scam. The idea is to get you to accept you will have no say in the kids religious upbringing. You get used to that and believe it is mutually agreed, then the child comes and its U turns all over the place. He will insist the child is raised Muslim and there will be nothing you can do about it.
There will be a lot more sudden announcements as well, things that get decided without any input from you. Worse still his parents will have more rights over your kids than you.

Speechless wrote: »

My boyf says he is "non-religious" so it wouldn't bother him if his children didnt go to the mosque.

Take that with a large pinch of salt....again they all say that, until the children are born. Then his parents will get on to him about family honour etc and everything changes. Everything you think your supposed liberal boyfriend told you will change.

Speechless wrote: »

Please someone tell me there is a middle ground somewhere. Maybe we were naiive to think that religion would not be an issue between us.

Im sorry. Not much can be said on a forum, I advise you against this marriage.

Wibbs

This idea from unregistered has come up twice and while it can and does happen, indeed I can think of two examples exactly like they describe, but I can also think of another two were it didn't arise. In one case she was the one who was open to bringing them up a la Islam and he wasn't and he was the Muslim. It depends on many factors, the cultural background of the type of Islam he comes from can make a big difference. How devout or not his own family are, how connected he is with his family etc. One size does not fit all. Just like with Christians. The only diff I have noted in my experience is that being an a al carte Muslim is less talked about, but it certainly exists.

nesbitt

Beruthiel wrote: »

This happened to a good friend of mine.
He was very relaxed about his religion, it didn't seem important at all.
They got married, they had a child and wham, he turned into a traditionalist. Total shock to her, she didn't see it coming.
Ruined their relationship with his insistance that the child be brought up a muslim.

I too knew an Irish girl who married a Muslim and after child was born he wanted traditional muslim household....

Please be careful, if you are serious about your BF and getting married some day, why not draw the family out and guage their reactions also.

philologos

herya wrote: »

That's why it's good they discuss it now to either find a compromise or to split if she can't get him to agree (if it's so important to her). I find his compromise suggestion very good - the children will be able to choose on their own when they grow up. There is enough religion related information in the society and educational system for them to be fully briefed on their options.

You know as well as I do, just as there is information, there are also agendas and biases in the public. She has a religious responsibility if she is to commit herself to Christ's teaching to bring up her child in the righteousness of God (Ephesians chapter 6).

herya wrote: »

I was one of these children baptised just in case & to please the granny. It was never of any use to me, I never had faith and it bothers me that I was signed up for something I have no easy way out from. I never had any problems being non religious and my granny gave up when she saw no interest. But technically I am still a Catholic which bothers me as I "count" in statistics, social debates etc. Hypocrisy of a highest degree.

I'm not saying that children should be baptised as infants. Infact a friend of mine was baptised in a Pentecostal ceremony when he was 17. I attended. It was a rather meaningful event. This isn't relevant to the point I was saying. However I see no problems with infant baptism.

herya wrote: »

Let the children choose, they will be grateful if they are allowed to discover their faith themselves.

You can't choose without knowledge. Parents should equip children to choose for themselves later.

Ann22

If he says it's not important to him and it is important to you op would he really mind if any children were brought up Catholic? If he says he would then I'd suspect that deep down it may be more important to him than he knows. I'm a bit like you, I'm a selective Catholic, I don't agree with all the teachings of the Church but to have a child baptised is really important to me, I pray every night and have been going to mass regularly only recently as my son is making his First Communion soon so I'm making the effort. My faith is really important to me as it's been such a support to me in the past, I don't know I'd have coped with losses I've experienced without it.....I want my children to have some degree of faith. I'd be very wary if I was you.

Ann22

This is a different situation to yours op but on bbc news today there was a heartbreaking case about a British woman who married an Egyptian Muslim, they were living in Dubai. It seems she was accused of adultery (she insists she's innocent but that's neither here nor there)and was sentenced to 3 mths in prison. She's out now but is being deported back to Britain without her two little boys. There was video footage of her husband taking them off her in a car park...the kids were screaming and clinging to her, she ended up on the ground bawling her eyes out. It's probably on the bbc website now. I was in tears watching..even the newsreader looked annoyed. Whatever you do don't go moving to another country if you do happen to marry!

herya

Ann22 wrote: »

If he says it's not important to him and it is important to you op would he really mind if any children were brought up Catholic? If he says he would then I'd suspect that deep down it may be more important to him than he knows.

I'm an agnostic not a Muslim but I would mind if my children were to be brought up in a religious environment. It's not only "religion opposes religion" you know.

herya

Jakkass wrote: »

You can't choose without knowledge. Parents should equip children to choose for themselves later.

But you can't separate religious education and religious practice at home, it just doesn't work this way. You can't teach a child about Jesus and then tell him/her that you won't bring them to the church because that's an agreement you have with their daddy. Unless you want to make the daddy a big bad wolf of course.

the_syco

Speechless wrote: »

Please someone tell me there is a middle ground somewhere.

But he has given you the middle ground?

Speechless wrote: »

On Saturday night my boyf announced that any children we would have would not belong to either of our religions

Linoge

If he is not religous and doesn't care if the child is brought up as a Muslim or not then whats the problem?! Lets face it, being a Catholic in Ireland is probably the closest thing to non religion as there is. You can do all the fun stuff like communion, Christmas, married in a nice church in a white dress etc. then not go to mass, have sex before marriage, divorce etc and not an eyelid batted. The abilty to be completely hypocritical exists here, but this is not the same for Muslims (in the main).

If your child is being brought up here it is just easier for everyone. Some schools could reject your child from enrolment, or when they get older the chances are that they will end up getting married to a Catholic. You are not a fundamentalist so religion will have very little impact on your childs upbringing and morals, as is the same with the majority of young Irish people.

Personally, i abhor all religion but my gf is probably as religous as you. It is not an issue for us simply because it is something that is important to her but ultimately has very little influence or consequences for the child.

herya

Linoge - sadly you're probably right. The sad thing is that you teach them hypocrisy from the early age but well isn't (almost) everyone else.

LegacyUser

Its been said a few times, but I always remember my uncle who's lived in the Middle East for over 25 years, telling me about the expression "my Mohammed is different". Basically Western/Christian women going out with Muslim men and all is hunky dory and religion isnt important, my boyfriend isnt the same as the rest, until marraige and children become part of the equation and everything changes.

Now its terrible to generalise like this, and the OPs boyfriend may well be genuine in what he says, but Id still be wary. A lot could be told on how he'd be with the children being Catholic.

crotalus667

SeekUp wrote: »

I wouldn't go down that road -- performing a sacrament that you know your partner doesn't want and keeping it a secret (from both him and your child)? Yikes.
.

It’s splashing some water on the child’s head while saying some words , it’s not like it’s a circumcision, it means nothing harms no one and puts the op’s mind at ease no harm no foul

Liam Byrne

Dord wrote: »

It seems to me that "Liam Byrne" is just spouting off a load of catholic stuff...

Yes, I am spouting the "official" Catholic line.....I just want to clarify that that doesn't mean or imply that I agree with it. While I wouldn't knock that church in the same way as many do, the last time I looked, the leader of the church was still encouraging irresponsible abstinence from contraceptives, either inside or outside marraige.....

So don't get me wrong on that post; while I was raised a Catholic and would like to think I keep the key Christian values, I probably can't actually call myself one these days because there are too many things that I do / don't do / disagree with.

Basically, we're all already picking and choosing the bits that we want ourselves and our children to follow.....almost no-one I know is 100% Catholic, if you take the "by-the-book" definition.

And what I was trying to say is that most of us (with the exception of the little scumbags who don't know right from wrong) are doing OK in that.

So, OP, teach them right and wrong and you'll be bringing them up just fine, in my book.

P.S. Not completely certain what I meant by the "unfortunately we don't allow that"....think I might have deleted part of the sentence to reword something, and I can't remember now (24 hours later) what it was....if I think of it I'll post it but please ignore that bit for the moment.....ta! But in case it was related to the whole baptism/naming a baby vs teaching them and letting them decide later, my thanks to the posters who've clarified that you can do this.....

LegacyUser

Hi all!

OP here again. Thanks for all the messages and all the different views.

I'm still at a bit of a loss over the whole thing but I'm steeling myself for the conversations ahead. I only get to see himself at the weekends, so the "deep n meaningful" will start up again on Saturday. I don't want to be discussing these sort of issues over the phone.

A few posters warned me to be wary of how things might change after marriage, that all of a sudden a U-turn may occur and I might find myself married to a man who wants a traditional muslim family. That possibility is, of course, in the back of my mind. I know it will all have to be discussed, at great length. A very practical friend of mine even suggested today to have the agreement written down before marriage, kind of like a pre-nup.

I dunno, we'll work something out. And if we don't....well I'll cross that bridge if I come to it.

philologos

herya wrote: »

But you can't separate religious education and religious practice at home, it just doesn't work this way. You can't teach a child about Jesus and then tell him/her that you won't bring them to the church because that's an agreement you have with their daddy. Unless you want to make the daddy a big bad wolf of course.

Why should she have to? Again insisting on secularism within the domestic is quite ridiculous.

She should have every right to bring her children wherever she sees it fit to bring them. He should learn to deal with it. People have different religious views, and if he wants to teach her about Islam, or atheism / agnosticism (if he is truly in this camp) then I think he is free to. However parents have the right of freedom of conscience, and they have the right to provide for the moral and religious education of their children (it's in the Constitution).

OP: Keep honest about what you want to do. Don't let undue pressure come into any serious agreement that you'll ever have to make on this.

Rb

Jackkass, please stop trying to push your cult on people in Personal Issues, it's disgusting.

It's very easy to say "She should be allowed bring her kids up Catholic and bringing them up secular is ridiculous" when your cults very existence depends on you recruiting kids when they're not even old enough to know what their own thumb is for.

Wibbs

OK everyone chill and less of the cult stuff Rb(if you have a problem with a post please report it) and Jakkass let's try to ease back on the overly religious stuff and stick to the practical matter at hand(this does not include quoting scripture). Leave the debate to other fora and keep on topic. Thanks.