Pylons - health risks - leukaemia

Bog Butter

I just thought i'd open a thread for those interested or concerned with the pylons. Below is a link to the anti pylon group website and a quote the website relating to health concerns.

http://www.pylonpressure.ie/web/Global%20Navig/Home.html

Issues of Concern to the Public

Extra High voltage overhead transmission lines are classified as a "possible carcinogen or group 2b" for childhood leukaemia by the International Agency for Research on Cancer. Other agencies have the same classification for other forms of
cancer.
International compliance limits set for exposure to electromagnetic fields are currently set at 250 times higher than the levels being observed to cause a doubling of the risk of developing childhood leukaemia. Threshold levels should be set well below - rather than above - where increased health effects are being documented.
Since the year 2000 there have been 107 scientific papers published in peer reviewed journals. Sixty nine of those linked electro-magnetic fields to various forms of cancer, thirty were inconclusive and only eight showed no links.
A significant body of research by Draper et al. in 2005 in Britain found that living within 200m of high power lines increases a child's chance of getting leukaemia by 69% and within 600m it was increased by an average of 20%. EirGrid currently will not even commit to placing the lines a minimum of 50 metres, without exception, from
existing dwellings. A report in 2007 by the UK Government Stakeholder Advisory Group on electromagnetic fields notes that there is a cost/benefit analysis for all health issues of 1:50. That is, one €1 million spent reducing electromagnetic field exposure is recouped in €50 million worth of health benefits.

I must say I do find this worrying! What do you think?

irish_bob

malman wrote: »

I just thought i'd open a thread for those interested or concerned with the pylons. Below is a link to the anti pylon group website and a quote the website relating to health concerns.

http://www.pylonpressure.ie/web/Global%20Navig/Home.html



I must say I do find this worrying! What do you think?

i think you can come up with statistics in order to back up any theory or claim
i think that the whole anti pylon campaign is just hysterical , lacking in real info and another example of not only how much NIMBY,sm exists in ireland but how easy a people we are to scare

if cant allow pylons , what chance is there for nuclear power at some point in the future

Bog Butter

irish_bob wrote: »

i think you can come up with statistics in order to back up any theory or claimi think that the whole anti pylon campaign is just hysterical , lacking in real info and another example of not only how much NIMBY,sm exists in ireland but how easy a people we are to scare

if cant allow pylons , what chance is there for nuclear power at some point in the future

No I didn't. I simply did a copy and paste from the anti pylon website. I am generally very sceptical when it comes to pressure groups. I am pro M3 and I am pro phone masts. While I have not been won over yet by the anti pylon group I am concerned as I could be living quite close to these pylons. I would like to be pro pylons but I am neutral at the moment.

I have decided to research it myself. I have opened a thread in the Biology and Medicine forum under Science and I will post the results of my independant research there.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055554553

GenericUser

malman wrote: »

No I didn't. I simply did a copy and paste from the anti pylon website. I am generally very sceptical when it comes to pressure groups. I am pro M3 and I am pro phone masts. While I have not been won over yet by the anti pylon group I am concerned as I could be living quite close to these pylons. I would like to be pro pylons but I am neutral at the moment.

I have decided to research it myself. I have opened a thread in the Biology and Medicine forum under Science and I will post the results of my independant research there.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055554553

You are correct to be sceptical of pressure groups.
The Draper report which many similar groups are fond of quoting also states that the results it found are well within the realms of chance.
However you will be hard pressed to find a pressure group that will quote that. Anyone could have taken the results on childhood leukemia and compared them to say, the large amount of wooden fence posts in the vicinity. Ergo, the high incidence of Childhood leukemia in that particular area is worryingly related to the amout of wooden fence posts in that location..............














However the results are well within the realms of chance, and the possibility of this being a coincidence can not be ruled out.

spiderdog

i wonder some people arent worried about the pylons because they wont affect them?
they would be very close to my house and i for one am worried
im not saying we dont need such things but underground is the way to go imo

pullandbang

Undergorund is where they should be - purely on the asthetic. Pylons are huge ugly structures that have no place in our beautiful countryside. Our landscape is already blighted by the "bungalow blitz" of the '70's and the current fashion for huge one off houses dotted in the most picturesque areas, complete with paddock for little missy's pony, treble garage for the Range Rovers and miles of post and rail fencing.

Put the pylons underground, replant any damaged hedgerows and you wouldn't even know they were there.

GenericUser

pullandbang wrote: »

Undergorund is where they should be - purely on the asthetic. Pylons are huge ugly structures that have no place in our beautiful countryside. Our landscape is already blighted by the "bungalow blitz" of the '70's and the current fashion for huge one off houses dotted in the most picturesque areas, complete with paddock for little missy's pony, treble garage for the Range Rovers and miles of post and rail fencing.

Put the pylons underground, replant any damaged hedgerows and you wouldn't even know they were there.

You can't change the laws of physics just because they dont look nice.
Believe you me, you'll know they're there when you have to dig the bloody thing up to re-lay a section because of a fault or because some contractor can't read a map. I'd rather have a big ugly structure out my back yard (which I have) than electrical outages lasting days.
Have you ever been to south africa by any chance?

GenericUser

spiderdog wrote: »

i wonder some people arent worried about the pylons because they wont affect them?
they would be very close to my house and i for one am worried
im not saying we dont need such things but underground is the way to go imo

They arent worried because they arent dangerous.

spiderdog

i`ve read all the pro`s and cons of this.....and formed my own opinion, theres a huge amount of evidence that these carry health risks!!
as if that weren`t bad enough........those huge structures will devalue my house and many others.
i appreciate we need this.........but underground.

irish_bob

putting them underground would cost many multiples of putting them overhead and dont say it isnt any more expensive because thats just nonesense , if that was the case , the esb would have put all thier cables underground , , the logistics of putting them underground as opposed to over head are clearly much greater , its a no brainer and no amount of propoganda will convince me otherwise
ive said it once and il say it again , as a nation , we are just too easy to scare , people who are up in arms about this simply havent enough problems in thier life , real problems , they are tooo happy and need something to rail against

as regards them reducing the value of peoples homes , we dont need pylons to do that

pullandbang

GenericUser wrote: »

You can't change the laws of physics just because they dont look nice.
Believe you me, you'll know they're there when you have to dig the bloody thing up to re-lay a section because of a fault or because some contractor can't read a map. I'd rather have a big ugly structure out my back yard (which I have) than electrical outages lasting days.
Have you ever been to south africa by any chance?

Not been to SA but have been to France.
Are they not now putting all their new lines underground because there is less risk of outages and damage? By the same logic we should have our gas, water, sewage above ground so they don't have to be dug up.

Modern power lines coupled with modern technology would leave the power lines much safer and out of the way underground. It's the badly laid, badly designed, old fashioned lines that give the trouble. Given the changes in our weather patterns, underground lines will be at less risk from high winds, lightening and storms.

spiderdog

i think a huge ugly pylon towering over my house would not make it attractive to buyers....
also...on this topic....the irish countryside would be an eyesore with these pylons.
yes, underground is more expensive......but the cheapest way isnt always the best way.

irish_bob

spiderdog wrote: »

i think a huge ugly pylon towering over my house would not make it attractive to buyers....
also...on this topic....the irish countryside would be an eyesore with these pylons.
yes, underground is more expensive......but the cheapest way isnt always the best way.

the anti pylon campaign would have us believe that underground is no more expensive and the country is too broke to spend extra on putting them underground

spiderdog

obv it would be dearer to put them underground but better for the long run!!
i take it that you wont have one of these looming over yoyr property?

GenericUser

pullandbang wrote: »

Not been to SA but have been to France.
Are they not now putting all their new lines underground because there is less risk of outages and damage? By the same logic we should have our gas, water, sewage above ground so they don't have to be dug up.

Modern power lines coupled with modern technology would leave the power lines much safer and out of the way underground. It's the badly laid, badly designed, old fashioned lines that give the trouble. Given the changes in our weather patterns, underground lines will be at less risk from high winds, lightening and storms.

Modern power lines are what are planned. All modern AC transmission power lines are built over ground. Underground lines have a lower (forced) outage rate. But the outages are several orders of magnitude longer than over ground. A forced outage on an underground transmission line will typically last days or weeks. That means blackouts for you.
South africa have rolling blackouts. Its not fun.

Overground lines have a higher fault and outage rate. But the faults last less than a second on average and the outages are fixable in a matter of hours if not minutes. Why is this? Because the lines are easily accessible, and the technology is well proven and understood.

You can believe the BS the pressure groups are pushing down your throat if you want, thats your choice. But believe you me, the line will NOT be built underground.
If it comes down to underground, they just wont be built, its as simple as that. Why wont they be built? Because it just isnt technically feasible.
And if they are not built, there will be no capacity for major (or minor) industry, or for that matter significant numbers of new home connections.

A small group of people (who have no technical understanding of the topic) with their heads in the sand holding the rest of the country to ransom is not fair on the people of Ireland. I have said it once and i'll say it again, these overhead power lines have been in existance in ireland for well over 20 years. they exist in some of the most picturesque spots in the country. NOT ONE person has died from their presence, and neither has there been an associated drop of in tourism in those counties.
Try showing tourists around your country in the dark.

GenericUser

spiderdog wrote: »

obv it would be dearer to put them underground but better for the long run!!
i take it that you wont have one of these looming over yoyr property?

I have one 50 metres from my house.
I have no problem with it being there.
It was there a long time before my house was, and even if it was to be rebuilt or restrung I would still not protest its presence.

GenericUser

pullandbang wrote: »

Undergorund is where they should be - purely on the asthetic. Pylons are huge ugly structures that have no place in our beautiful countryside. Our landscape is already blighted by the "bungalow blitz" of the '70's and the current fashion for huge one off houses dotted in the most picturesque areas, complete with paddock for little missy's pony, treble garage for the Range Rovers and miles of post and rail fencing.

Put the pylons underground, replant any damaged hedgerows and you wouldn't even know they were there.

By your own logic the bungalows should be placed underground.
Explain to me why that hasnt happened??

spiderdog

GenericUser wrote: »

I have one 50 metres from my house.
I have no problem with it being there.
It was there a long time before my house was, and even if it was to be rebuilt or restrung I would still not protest its presence.

great you dont mind one beside your house, but i, and many others do not wish to live beside such a force.
my head is not in the sand, there are facts for and against these pylons.....and i have formed my own opinion.

irish_bob

GenericUser wrote: »

Modern power lines are what are planned. All modern AC transmission power lines are built over ground. Underground lines have a lower (forced) outage rate. But the outages are several orders of magnitude longer than over ground. A forced outage on an underground transmission line will typically last days or weeks. That means blackouts for you.
South africa have rolling blackouts. Its not fun.

Overground lines have a higher fault and outage rate. But the faults last less than a second on average and the outages are fixable in a matter of hours if not minutes. Why is this? Because the lines are easily accessible, and the technology is well proven and understood.

You can believe the BS the pressure groups are pushing down your throat if you want, thats your choice. But believe you me, the line will NOT be built underground.
If it comes down to underground, they just wont be built, its as simple as that. Why wont they be built? Because it just isnt technically feasible.
And if they are not built, there will be no capacity for major (or minor) industry, or for that matter significant numbers of new home connections.

A small group of people (who have no technical understanding of the topic) with their heads in the sand holding the rest of the country to ransom is not fair on the people of Ireland. I have said it once and i'll say it again, these overhead power lines have been in existance in ireland for well over 20 years. they exist in some of the most picturesque spots in the country. NOT ONE person has died from their presence, and neither has there been an associated drop of in tourism in those counties.
Try showing tourists around your country in the dark.

a very reasoned and articulated view , unfortunatley the noisy minority tend to drown out such logic with thier unhinged hysteria

spiderdog

the noisey minority???
well, all i can say is...thank god for them!

pullandbang

GenericUser wrote: »

By your own logic the bungalows should be placed underground.
Explain to me why that hasnt happened??

Don't quite understand how you come to that conclusion.
My point about bungalows is not that they are above ground :rolleyes: (obviously they need to be - otherwise how would you clean your windows?) it's the proliferation of them dotted along every highway and byway. Some of the haciendas that were built in the 70's on what was green farmland are a disgrace. Just like pylons, they have no place in the countryside. These bungalows, along with existing pylons have blighted what was once beautiful rolling green countryside. Now the powers that be want to run even more of them across the landscape. There is no need for it - they can go underground.

Your own argument about not having power for major or minor industry just doesn't wash. What major or indeed minor industry is going to start in the middle of the countryside? I'll tell you - NONE! If at some point in the future, overseas industry decides to invest here again, it will be in or around a major population centre - in other words Dublinand it's already covered with power. The idle factories all over the city have left us with lots of capacity in the power area.

Quint

pullandbang wrote: »

Don't quite understand how you come to that conclusion.
My point about bungalows is not that they are above ground :rolleyes: (obviously they need to be - otherwise how would you clean your windows?) it's the proliferation of them dotted along every highway and byway. Some of the haciendas that were built in the 70's on what was green farmland are a disgrace. Just like pylons, they have no place in the countryside. These bungalows, along with existing pylons have blighted what was once beautiful rolling green countryside. Now the powers that be want to run even more of them across the landscape. There is no need for it - they can go underground.

Your own argument about not having power for major or minor industry just doesn't wash. What major or indeed minor industry is going to start in the middle of the countryside? I'll tell you - NONE! If at some point in the future, overseas industry decides to invest here again, it will be in or around a major population centre - in other words Dublinand it's already covered with power. The idle factories all over the city have left us with lots of capacity in the power area.

I'm afraid you don't understand electricity distribution if you think the reason high voltage lines are used to give power to major industry. Power is distributed at high voltage to cover long distances. And pylons are used all over the world, they're the best way of transporting electricity long distances, my advice is to get used to them.

GenericUser

The thing that pisses me off so much about this is that the electrical engineers planning these projects (In ESB, EirGrid and PowerGen companies) are highly trained and highly educated professionals. Yet the lack of respect from the general public is disgraceful.

Do you go up to the cockpit of an aircraft and question what the pilot is doing? No, you dont, because the pilot is a highly trained professional and knows what they are doing. You more than likely have no knowledge of what they are doing.

Some of you also clearly have no knowledge or understanding of the need for or methods of delivering electrical infrastructure.
The people working in the industry in Ireland (and the rest of the world) do. Some of the most highly respected Power and Electrical Engineering professionals in the world are irish and are working in ESB, Eirgrid etc and yet you still question their work?
Do you really think that they want to destroy your lives with ill health, your livelihoods with pylons? Why would they do that?

GenericUser

pullandbang wrote: »

Don't quite understand how you come to that conclusion.
My point about bungalows is not that they are above ground :rolleyes: (obviously they need to be - otherwise how would you clean your windows?) it's the proliferation of them dotted along every highway and byway. Some of the haciendas that were built in the 70's on what was green farmland are a disgrace. Just like pylons, they have no place in the countryside. These bungalows, along with existing pylons have blighted what was once beautiful rolling green countryside. Now the powers that be want to run even more of them across the landscape. There is no need for it - they can go underground.

Your own argument about not having power for major or minor industry just doesn't wash. What major or indeed minor industry is going to start in the middle of the countryside? I'll tell you - NONE! If at some point in the future, overseas industry decides to invest here again, it will be in or around a major population centre - in other words Dublinand it's already covered with power. The idle factories all over the city have left us with lots of capacity in the power area.

Irish Cement Platin
Irish Cement CastleMungret
Quinn Cement Cavan
Aughinish Alumina
Merck Sharpe and Dohme (opened recently in county carlow)
Wyeth in newbridge
Lagan cement in westmeath
Dairygold
Glanbia
Intel + Hewlett packard in leixlip (leixlip hardly existed before they located there....why did they locate there? Principly because of its proximity to a 400kV substation and a secure supply of electricity from moneypoint)
Medite in anner county tipperary
masonite in county leitrim
Abbot pharma in cavan and sligo

.....I could go on and on...All of these are major industry located a long way away from dublin. How many are in the north east? Not many.


With regards to your point about bungalows. You make the point that bungalows and pylons are a blight on the landscape. You say that pylons / HV lines should be undergrounded.

I asked you what makes bungalows any different?
And you answered my question wonderfully

"(obviously they need to be - otherwise how would you clean your windows?) "

This completely echoes my main point. Putting HV power lines underground is completely UNFEASABLE.
How would you repair the faults?

GenericUser

spiderdog wrote: »

great you dont mind one beside your house, but i, and many others do not wish to live beside such a force.
my head is not in the sand, there are facts for and against these pylons.....and i have formed my own opinion.

I'm sorry, but there are no proven facts against the pylons.
All that exists is 80 years of proven science that says is no uncertain terms that the safest, most secure and reliable way of transporting electricity is by overhead line.
You are most certainly entitled to your opinion, but that does not make your opinion correct.

pullandbang

GenericUser wrote: »

.....I could go on and on...All of these are major industry located a long way away from dublin. How many are in the north east? Not many.

They are all existing companies with existing adequate power - I'm talking about new companies coming in...or lack of. What major industrial power users are lining up to come here? I'd say you could count them on one hand with your fist closed.

meathstevie

GenericUser wrote: »

The thing that pisses me off so much about this is that the electrical engineers planning these projects (In ESB, EirGrid and PowerGen companies) are highly trained and highly educated professionals. Yet the lack of respect from the general public is disgraceful.

Do you go up to the cockpit of an aircraft and question what the pilot is doing? No, you dont, because the pilot is a highly trained professional and knows what they are doing. You more than likely have no knowledge of what they are doing.

Some of you also clearly have no knowledge or understanding of the need for or methods of delivering electrical infrastructure.
The people working in the industry in Ireland (and the rest of the world) do. Some of the most highly respected Power and Electrical Engineering professionals in the world are irish and are working in ESB, Eirgrid etc and yet you still question their work?
Do you really think that they want to destroy your lives with ill health, your livelihoods with pylons? Why would they do that?

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to accuse the ESB of anything dodgy but if you believe that big industry is altruistic you need a course of reality tablets.