Can stretching slow you down?

--amadeus--

Hi,

Interesting post in another forum.

The gist of it is that the stiffer your muscles the better your running economy (I assume up to a point) and so stretching increase your flexibility, increasing your elasticity and ultimately reducing your speed over longer distances.

Any thoughts?

Willy Mckenna

Ok there are a few views on this, but generally stretching is good for your overall flexibility and range on motion.In terms of speed,If you cannot achieve the correct running mechanics you will not run as efficiently or as fast.
In events such as 100m athletes need more elasticity in the muscles to allow for fast reactive contacts while running,but also need the flexibility for optimum mechanics.If someone is over flexible,say like a gymnast or ballarina then you are likely to run slower.So to close if you cant achieve near perfect mechanics your most likely not as flexible as you need to be for you event.

RoyMcC

Can of worms amadeus, but here's a recent and relevant study paper on the matter http://www.insanbilimleri.com/ojs/index.php/uib/article/viewFile/403/277

thirtyfoot

Willy Mckenna wrote: »

Ok there are a few views on this, but generally stretching is good for your overall flexibility and range on motion.In terms of speed,If you cannot achieve the correct running mechanics you will not run as efficiently or as fast.
In events such as 100m athletes need more elasticity in the muscles to allow for fast reactive contacts while running,but also need the flexibility for optimum mechanics.If someone is over flexible,say like a gymnast or ballarina then you are likely to run slower.So to close if you cant achieve near perfect mechanics your most likely not as flexible as you need to be for you event.

I'd be on the same wavelength as Willy Mc, flexible as you need to be for your event but no more.

But no stretching before sprinting especially as it dulls (for want of a better word) the nervous system which when running and sprinting especially you will need to have activated and be firing.

pgibbo

Your post over there caught my eye amadeus. Glad to see that there is some follow up to it here.

RoyMcC wrote: »

Can of worms amadeus, but here's a recent and relevant study paper on the matter http://www.insanbilimleri.com/ojs/index.php/uib/article/viewFile/403/277

I am unable to get to this URL Roy. Is it correct? Thank you.

RoyMcC

pgibbo wrote: »

Your post over there caught my eye amadeus. Glad to see that there is some follow up to it here.



I am unable to get to this URL Roy. Is it correct? Thank you.

Seems to work but here it is again http://www.insanbilimleri.com/ojs/index.php/uib/article/viewFile/403/277

j walsh

Amadeus i'm stalking you from the M A forum:D,
There's a fella that trains with me for the last six months, who does triathlons professionally
for years,and he maintains that the stretching we're doing has made some difference to his training especially powering up hills or through soft sand,
I hope this helps.

RealistSpy

You want to stretch but not over do it e.g 30 min doing static stretching wrong!

Try do dynamic stretching before you event untill you feel optimised but not too elastic. Then some static stretching after your event.

cfitz

It seems to me that people here are looking for an excuse not to bother stretching after they run

--amadeus--

cfitz wrote: »

It seems to me that people here are looking for an excuse not to bother stretching after they run

I don't need an excuse, I never bother anyway :P

I do need to build my flexibility for other sports though, hence the question.

JW - not many pro triathletes around, he must be pretty good! There are a couple of us here who cross post, feel free to stalk away!

baza1976

cfitz wrote: »

It seems to me that people here are looking for an excuse not to bother stretching after they run

reads like that doesn't it... looks like some people are looking for reassurance not to stretch as this subject in one form or another keeps popping up...

Racing Flat

The answer to the OP's question is 'NO!'

As stretching is not effective it can neither improve or disimprove performance. It just does nothing. Nada. Just wastes your time.

baza1976

Racing Flat wrote: »

The answer to the OP's question is 'NO!'

As stretching is not effective it can neither improve or disimprove performance. It just does nothing. Nada. Just wastes your time.

That statement is a bit strong isn't it???

So if I have a strain and can feel an ache in my hamstring and after stretching it why do I feel much better???

If i'm at early morning race/run and feel stiff how come after stretching I feel much better...

The only thing I'd agree with you on is "The answer to the OP's question is 'NO!"

thirtyfoot

Racing Flat wrote: »

The answer to the OP's question is 'NO!'

As stretching is not effective it can neither improve or disimprove performance. It just does nothing. Nada. Just wastes your time.

Stretching can affect performance if done prior to exposive exercise especially. Static stretching can dull the nervous system and result in a lack of explosiveness and in some case poor co-ordination as a result.

spaceylou

possibly a stupid question but if someone could explain what the difference is between static and dynamic stretching I'd be a lot less confused!!

Thanks

Racing Flat

baza1976 wrote: »

That statement is a bit strong isn't it???

Yes. Justifiably .Limited evidence about the effects of stretching and much of the evidence that is there is flawed anyhow.

baza1976 wrote: »

So if I have a strain and can feel an ache in my hamstring and after stretching it why do I feel much better???

If i'm at early morning race/run and feel stiff how come after stretching I feel much better...

Placebo? Accounts for between 40 and 80% of beneficial effects of all therapeutic interventions. Just putting it out there like.

Or perhaps the stretching has a short-term pain relieving effect (comjpletely indeoendent of any stretching effect). e.g. mobilising the tissues stimulates the sensory nerve endings, which subsequently close the pain gate (temporarily) so you don't feel the pain.

Tingle wrote: »

Stretching can affect performance if done prior to exposive exercise especially. Static stretching can dull the nervous system and result in a lack of explosiveness and in some case poor co-ordination as a result.

Is the research behind these statements all that hot? I'd doubt if there's anything too conclusive on this and more importantly I'm not sure how transferable those findings would be to athletic performance as they happen at competitions.

I'm maybe flying solo here. But no harm to question things that are done just becasue they've always been done.

RoyMcC

Thing is RF it's not only research. The application of such research as well as general practice can be seen on an ongoing basis. There are several examples in this thread notably with Tingle's experience as an elite athlete and now as a coach.

If nothing else, how about range of movement? Did you see the YouTube clip on the 'stride length' thread? See the hip displacement amongst the elite runners there, to a degree you rarely see amongst club or social runners. Not saying they all practise static stretching, but I'd like to know whether that is just a natural attribute or whether it has been assisted by relevant training.

In the track & field world there is a lot of work done off-season on flexibility. The results are not immediately obvious but I have seen startling performance improvements. In a previous life at my old club we had a young lad, a thrower, who was strong but totally inflexible. He would have got nowhere without a lot of flexibility work, but at present he tops the UK age-group discus rankings and is as bendy as any of his peers.

So, whilst I go along with not blindly following the crowd, I think you do need to accept that there are some benefits in some cases at least. They may of course not be so relevant to endurance running.

RealistSpy

spaceylou wrote: »

possibly a stupid question but if someone could explain what the difference is between static and dynamic stretching I'd be a lot less confused!!

Thanks

Static Stretching:- Stretching without body movement
Dynamic Stretching:- Involves body movement

Zuppy

Static: is a gradual lengthing of the muscle by holding a position at the first point of tension. (for about 20-30sec). To allow the GTO to overcome the muscle spindle. Allows increase in ROM and muscle to relax

Dynamic: Constant and CONTROLLED motion thru the full ROM to increase blood flow and warm up muscle

Ballistic: Quick, explosive movement. Prepares body for explosive movement (lift) or sports related movement.

PNF: Partner assisted, passive and active muscle actions.

SMFR: Self myofascial release (foam roller stuff)




Not going into definitions of SMFR or PNF much sorry, I type too slow. :-)

Zuppy

Forgot my opinion.

Common guidance for competition, I give out, is;
warm-up followed by either Dynamic/ SMFR or PNF stretching. Maybe ballistic depending on sport.

Post workout, easy SMFR/ PNF and static.

Flexibility should be a separate workout

Usually if an athlete is preforming then don't change it. :-)

The reason stretching/ flexibilty works wonders IMHO is we generally don't have full ROM or the body is not used to generating power through out the full ROM. Even in serious athletes in this country.

Racing Flat

RoyMcC wrote: »

Thing is RF it's not only research. The application of such research as well as general practice can be seen on an ongoing basis. There are several examples in this thread notably with Tingle's experience as an elite athlete and now as a coach.

If nothing else, how about range of movement? Did you see the YouTube clip on the 'stride length' thread? See the hip displacement amongst the elite runners there, to a degree you rarely see amongst club or social runners. Not saying they all practise static stretching, but I'd like to know whether that is just a natural attribute or whether it has been assisted by relevant training.

In the track & field world there is a lot of work done off-season on flexibility. The results are not immediately obvious but I have seen startling performance improvements. In a previous life at my old club we had a young lad, a thrower, who was strong but totally inflexible. He would have got nowhere without a lot of flexibility work, but at present he tops the UK age-group discus rankings and is as bendy as any of his peers.

So, whilst I go along with not blindly following the crowd, I think you do need to accept that there are some benefits in some cases at least. They may of course not be so relevant to endurance running.

Excellent points there Roy. I am being devil's advocate.:)

But re the bit in bold - how about this for an analogy....the other day Woddle and Tingle were driving down the road in seperate cars. Woddle was twice as fast as Tingle. This really upset Tingle so he came to me for advice. I had a look at both of their driving styles and I made an observation - Woddle's right ankle was plantarflexed (or pointing downward) a lot more than Tingles - to the point that Woddles accelerator was on the floor, but Tingles was only halfway down! So I'm presuming Tingle's ankle is less flexible, and so I have got him to do lots of stretching. Hopefully in a few months or years his ankle will be as flexible as Woddles and maybe he'll be able to drive as fast.

Now, another person might say, it's not that Woddle is more flexible, it's just that Tingle isn't pressing down on the accelerator as much, not because he doesn't have the flexibility - he just doesn't do it! We can prove this by asking him to point his ankle down and he'll probably be able to get it as far as Woddle...

This is similar to the elite runners with greater hip movement. Lesser runners may not have as much hip displacement, but I do not think this is because they do not have the flexibility, but rather the movement pattern stored in their brain, does not have this in its hard wiring. So it's a motor control problem rather than a flexibility issue. I can lift my hip up the same amount as them, so I have the required flexibility (even though I'm very stiff, because it's actually not a very large amount of movement needed - we use more flexion in our hips to simply sit down for example). Even so I don't do this. Because my running style/gait pattern is based on what I have inherited and imitated from my parents, and my own habits through the years. So if I wanted to run in the same style as the elites, I would not try to get there my improving my flexibility, but rather by trying to improve my motor control, ie by actually running like them. Initially this would be very difficult and it would take lots and lots of practice (and may need to be broken down into its component parts), over a long time, so that the new gait pattern could become learnt and programmed and part of the hardwiring. This would be difficult but not impossible. To get back to the driving analogy, I couldn't drive before and the first few months were so difficult, had to think of everything, clutch, accelerator, gears etc etc etc, but now it's automatic. So learning, or skill aquisition of the new running style could be achieved, thorugh practice of the task itself or its component parts, rather than flexibility work, and may eventually become automatic.

RoyMcC

But if Tingle CAN'T flex his ankle as much as Woddle, if my discus thrower CAN'T bring the implement back behind his shoulder then maybe they can be assisted to by some specific stretching work? If I tried to run like a guy from the Rift Valley no amount of motor control would achieve it :pac: but maybe (when I was younger) some targeted flexibility work would have helped me get part-way there.

But what I think you're really saying is (as with the stride length discussion) is that most sub-elite runners are better served by spending their time just running rather than looking for a magic bullet. With which I'd go along.

Racing Flat

RoyMcC wrote: »

But if Tingle CAN'T flex his ankle as much as Woddle, if my discus thrower CAN'T bring the implement back behind his shoulder then maybe they can be assisted to by some specific stretching work?

Exactly.


BUT I imagine there's only a tiny minority of people who can't run with the 'optimal' running style due to lack of flexibility. As the range of motion needed for running is not very large - more range is needed for many functional activities such as sitting down, or squatting, or even just lifting your knee up to your chest; and the vast majority of us can do these things with ease. So flexibility exercises may help some, motor control work would help a lot more people IMHO.

I shouldn't really comment on field events, being a 'cross country slogger' myself, but I imagine similarly with the throwing events fleibility for the throwing action is probably not a limiting factor in many cases, but improving flexibility in the 'cocking' phase', where the body is winding up in the opposite direction to the throw to store elastic energy which will then be used in the power output of the throw, and so may help performance.

thirtyfoot

Racing Flat wrote: »

I shouldn't really comment on field events, being a 'cross country slogger' myself, but I imagine similarly with the throwing events fleibility for the throwing action is probably not a limiting factor in many cases, but improving flexibility in the 'cocking' phase', where the body is winding up in the opposite direction to the throw to store elastic energy which will then be used in the power output of the throw, and so may help performance.

I would imagine excessive flexibility would be as much a problem for a thrower as a runner. When you see slow mo of javelin in particular the ROM they get at their shoulders makes you nearly get sick as it looks like its going to fall off but if they were too flexible and there was too much rotation you might lose too much energy towards the direction you want to move at. Also in the hips if you got too much forward extension in that area might not be good and you could lose direction in your throw. Then again thats just an outside view of throws (Jav is an event I'd love to coach or understand more as its so dynamic and fast and powerful - might look into that:)). Its like all things and the same in all events in that you need to understand the required mechanics of your event before deciding the required level of flexibility or lack of flexibility.

cfitz

If you're unflexible and you're out training and you accidentally step in a hole or trip over a rock, surely you're far more likely to get injured than a flexible person?

hunnymonster

I'm possibly the least flexible person out there and a klutz to boot so I fall over regularly - so far no injuries but lots and lots of bruises

RoyMcC

Tingle wrote: »

(Jav is an event I'd love to coach or understand more as its so dynamic and fast and powerful - might look into that:)). quote]

Certainly you'd pick up loads of information from Bart and Dan. Just watching a good coach in action (in any event or sport) can be inspiring and educational.

Regrettably too many coaches believe they know it all and refuse to consider that they could learn from others.

But that's maybe for a future thread...

--amadeus--

RoyMcC wrote: »

Regrettably too many coaches believe they know it all and refuse to consider that they could learn from others.

But that's maybe for a future thread...

Funny enough I was thinking about that before. Over the last couple of months we have had a lot of posters join or get more active who seem to be very experienced coaches and / or well connected in teh general athletics scene and the quality of teh advice on here is staggering. It'd be a brave man who thinks he couldn't learn something.

thirtyfoot

RoyMcC wrote: »

Regrettably too many coaches believe they know it all and refuse to consider that they could learn from others.

But that's maybe for a future thread...

Yeah. I've been thinking of getting a very loose 'coaches co-op' together on the events I'm interested in. Nothing official and it would be outside of the Coaches Association or AAI so there would be no egg shells to be walking on or politics. All it would be would be coaches working together and pooling athletes, resources, time, ideas etc. Obviously different approaches and egos would have to be taken into account but ensuring the coaches had an open mind would be a prerequisite.

It kind of happens anyway where I have overlap with one coach in particular where one of his athletes takes a couple of sessions a week with us and when others are available they do too. He offers great technical advice to me too and has on a couple of occasions helped with us. The different athletes from different groups bring freshness to the groups too with different approaches and attitudes. Separately another coach wants us to come together the odd time and shake up sessions etc. Again he is massively experienced and I would be the big winner as I'd learn so much. Its mainly all talk now but I'll have more time next year and will try to get some bit of structure to it.

As you say, maybe a discussion for another day....

Racing Flat

Tingle wrote: »

I would imagine excessive flexibility would be as much a problem for a thrower as a runner. When you see slow mo of javelin in particular the ROM they get at their shoulders makes you nearly get sick as it looks like its going to fall off but if they were too flexible and there was too much rotation you might lose too much energy towards the direction you want to move at. Also in the hips if you got too much forward extension in that area might not be good and you could lose direction in your throw. Then again thats just an outside view of throws (Jav is an event I'd love to coach or understand more as its so dynamic and fast and powerful - might look into that:)). Its like all things and the same in all events in that you need to understand the required mechanics of your event before deciding the required level of flexibility or lack of flexibility.

I think the key is to have good control of the range of motion that you have regardless of the amount of range that you have (flexibility). So you can be 'over' flexible but still have great control, e.g. the majority of Olympic gymnasts, and so the overflexibility is not a problem, rather it's probably a pre-requisite to be able to perform gymnastics at that level.




Similarly to be a top rate baseball pitcher, you typically need abnormally excessive range of shoulder external rotation.






Some of the top fellows can control this range and so they remain injury free, while others can't and so they get injured a lot and need surgical repairs etc.

cfitz wrote: »

If you're unflexible and you're out training and you accidentally step in a hole or trip over a rock, surely you're far more likely to get injured than a flexible person?

I think if you graphed no. of injuries on the Y axis and flexibility on the X axis for the above scenario you'd get a U shaped curve. i.e. those who are stiffest and those who are most flexible would be more likely to get injured in the above situation than those who are in the middle in terms of flexibility. Not good to be too stiff or to be too flexible.

But I'd definitely rather be too stiff than too flexible, no question about it. People who are too flexible run into more difficulty than those who are too stiff IMHO.

RoyMcC

Sooo, just to clarify, you probably don't recommend pre-race stretching as demonstrated by the young lady above...