Studio Dogsbody required...

studiorat

please read very carefully...
Unpaid slave required by recording studio owner for the summer.

Duties include cleaning, building, (a family member with a trade, plasterer, bricklayer would be a distinct advantage!), soldering, doing stuff on the internet, lifting heavy stuff, sitting in on gigs, going to shops, having no social life etc. Nothing we wouldn't do our selves really...

We have one smallish studio (PT HD, Ableton and Logic), some rehearsal rooms, an electronics repair workshop and musicians coming in and out every day.

We are looking for someone with practical skills in electronics cable repair etc, who's handy with a paint brush from time to time and who is not afraid to get stuck-in with the upgrading, maintenance and general up keep of a working studio.

Rewards for this position will include access to the studio, an opportunity to meet and work with professional musicians and tech staff and a place from which to network from for your own work.

Please send cover letter via PM. This will be a position of some trust, so CV's and References (which will be followed up) will be required.

Thank You.
Rat.

fitz

Fair play Rat.
While it's unpaid work you're offering, you're being totally upfront with what's involved and required. Great opportunity for someone.

PMI

Knowledge of fine teas, and various brands of coffee machines would be a bonus too....

JonathanAnon

I'm a celtic cub, I wont get out of bed for less than 20k. :-)

Seriously though, I think it's very unfair to expect someone to work for nothing. Would you not fire them fifty quid a week to at least cover the costs of travelling to your office to do your cleaning for nothing. I would expect to at least cover the person for their expenses.

PaulBrewer

Wasn't there a young gentleman on yesterday looking for this very opportunity?

MagicMarker

JonathanAnon wrote: »

I'm a celtic cub, I wont get out of bed for less than 20k. :-)

Seriously though, I think it's very unfair to expect someone to work for nothing. Would you not fire them fifty quid a week to at least cover the costs of travelling to your office to do your cleaning for nothing. I would expect to at least cover the person for their expenses.

+1

If there is enough work to be busy every day, then there's enough work to pay for the help tbh.

trackmixstudio

:eek::mad::(:confused:

dav nagle

trackmixstudio wrote: »

:eek::mad::(:confused:

I will translate this for you since you are going icon crazy !

:eek: = What for free?

:mad: = That makes me angry

= Could you not give at least a few bob for transport?

= I don't think this is fair at all...

Seziertisch

It amazes me, sometimes people just breeze in having never (or hardly ever posted) on the MP forum and offer an opinion on something ... Not that there is a problem with it as such, I just find it a bit odd. I mean, there are only a handful of forums on boards that I read or post on. Some other people obviously get a lot more ground covered.

... as to the payment element, if you were familiar with the recording business, most places don't offer opportunities like this, he will be inundated with applications when word of it spreads a bit. I'd bet that there are people out there who would pay to do an internship like this, let alone get to do it for free. This is a good opportunity, and he has been completely upfront about what it will involve as well.

dav nagle

Seziertisch wrote: »

It amazes me, sometimes people just breeze in having never (or hardly ever posted) on the MP forum and offer an opinion on something ... Not that there is a problem with it as such, I just find it a bit odd. I mean, there are only a handful of forums on boards that I read or post on. Some other people obviously get a lot more ground covered.

... as to the payment element, if you were familiar with the recording business, most places don't offer opportunities like this, he will be inundated with applications when word of it spreads a bit. I'd bet that there are people out there who would pay to do an internship like this, let alone get to do it for free. This is a good opportunity, and he has been completely upfront about what it will involve as well.

I agree 100%, I would have jumped on an oppurtunity like this a few years back. Nobody has a job now anyway so what else would you be doing but sitting at home posting crap and masterbating excessively. Imagine bringing the studio up to scratch, the achievment of it all. You can bet whoever does this will not be shy of future advise, help, work and oppurtunity, the same oppurtunity Studiorat gave me and many others. Oppurtunites arise from being in the right place at the right time too.

PaulBrewer

JonathanAnon wrote: »

Seriously though, I think it's very unfair to expect someone to work for nothing. Would you not fire them fifty quid a week to at least cover the costs of travelling to your office to do your cleaning for nothing. I would expect to at least cover the person for their expenses.

I disagree - it's an area we've covered many times here. The education available out of " book learnin' " doesn't prepare one for the trenches. That's my opinion anyways.

So how does one get 'experience' ?
By Internship, that's how. A process common to many industries.

You get to see how the industry actually works and hopefully better opportunities in the future.

For example if a person has a 'piece of paper' qualification and 6 months experience you're much better off than the 'piece of paper' alone.

Even the fact a person who will have worked with someone with Dave's experience will probably mean a future employer will probably know Dave as the biz is so small. As part of the selection process there'll probably be a quick 'What's yer man like' phone call - if you've made an impression, you're in ...

Well worth spending a bus fair on, don't you think ... ?

MagicMarker

Seziertisch wrote: »

It amazes me, sometimes people just breeze in having never (or hardly ever posted) on the MP forum and offer an opinion on something ... Not that there is a problem with it as such, I just find it a bit odd. I mean, there are only a handful of forums on boards that I read or post on. Some other people obviously get a lot more ground covered.

Yeah, amazing how that happens on an open forum.

DamagedTrax

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I disagree - it's an area we've covered many times here. The education available out of " book learnin' " doesn't prepare one for the trenches. That's my opinion anyways.

So how does one get 'experience' ?
By Internship, that's how. A process common to many industries.

You get to see how the industry actually works and hopefully better opportunities in the future.

For example if a person has a 'piece of paper' qualification and 6 months experience you're much better off than the 'piece of paper' alone.

Even the fact a person who will have worked with someone with Dave's experience will probably mean a future employer will probably know Dave as the biz is so small. As part of the selection process there'll probably be a quick 'What's yer man like' phone call - if you've made an impression, you're in ...

Well worth spending a bus fair on, don't you think ... ?

+1 - ive sent this link onto a few lads i know that are starting out and they'd kill for a chance like this. the payment you receive will be in the learning.

Savman

Seziertisch wrote: »

It amazes me, sometimes people just breeze in having never (or hardly ever posted) on the MP forum and offer an opinion on something.

I'm struggling to see what this has to do with the topic at hand
It's a public board, people can 'breeze in' whenever they feel like. This is the exact situation that brings on complaints of it being too 'clicky' when some posters are on first name basis and anyone from outside the golden circle is shot down.

Post, not poster....

Savman

DamagedTrax wrote: »

+1 - ive sent this link onto a few lads i know that are starting out and they'd kill for a chance like this. the payment you receive will be in the learning.

What is this 'learning' of which you speak? Is it like credits? Can it be used to pay bus fare? The point being made is not that it's not worthy applying for, but that surely some expenses could be covered. Not an unreasonable request by any stretch of the imagination.

fitz

Of course this is an open forum, but with MP, you need context.

It's generally accepted that people who want to get ahead with a career working in a commercial studio, particularly coming straight out of college, are going to need to work for free.

The experience you gain is another form of education, that you won't get in college. There are more people who want to do the role under a an experienced and respected engineer like Studiorat than there are Studiorat's offering roles. You wouldn't expect a college to cover your expenses, why would you expect someone offering you another form of learning opportunity to do so?

And if you re-read the post, the person will also have access to the studio to do their own work, which would be extremely costly and unrealistic for someone starting out to do.

It's easy to criticise this kind of offer if you don't understand the context.

DamagedTrax

Savman wrote: »

What is this 'learning' of which you speak? Is it like credits? Can it be used to pay bus fare? The point being made is not that it's not worthy applying for, but that surely some expenses could be covered. Not an unreasonable request by any stretch of the imagination.

no matter what way you look at it the offer has already been made and it will be filled very quickly, so opinions on what they should or shouldnt offer are immaterial.

if someone wants to apply they know the score. if they dont like it then they dont apply.. whats the big fuss about?

MagicMarker

fitz wrote: »

Of course this is an open forum, but with MP, you need context.

It's generally accepted that people who want to get ahead with a career working in a commercial studio, particularly coming straight out of college, are going to need to work for free.

The experience you gain is another form of education, that you won't get in college. There are more people who want to do the role under a an experienced and respected engineer like Studiorat than there are Studiorat's offering roles. You wouldn't expect a college to cover your expenses, why would you expect someone offering you another form of learning opportunity to do so?

And if you re-read the post, the person will also have access to the studio to do their own work, which would be extremely costly and unrealistic for someone starting out to do.

It's easy to criticise this kind of offer if you don't understand the context.

What gives you the idea that I don't understand the context?

Yes, people will happily take this offer, it's a question of ethics if you ask me. Working for free is expected of anyone who is wanting to learn about the ins & outs of the industry, that's the problem. Anyone who ''works'' deserves to be paid, regardless of the industry, the OP doesn't even have to pay minimum wage, but I doubt that they can't afford something, as far as I know painting isn't a prerequisite to be a sound engineer.

Savman

DamagedTrax wrote: »

if someone wants to apply they know the score. if they dont like it then they dont apply.. whats the big fuss about?

No big fuss here

When you post a recruitment thread like this you're inviting all sorts of comments, even unwelcome ones. Any thread I've started over the years looking for musicians or whatever has nearly always turned into a spatfest for kids.

I don't think that's the case here, tis just different sides of the 'expenses' coin.

PaulBrewer

fitz wrote: »

Of course this is an open forum, but with MP, you need context.

It's generally accepted that people who want to get ahead with a career working in a commercial studio, particularly coming straight out of college, are going to need to work for free.

The experience you gain is another form of education, that you won't get in college. There are more people who want to do the role under a an experienced and respected engineer like Studiorat than there are Studiorat's offering roles. You wouldn't expect a college to cover your expenses, why would you expect someone offering you another form of learning opportunity to do so?

And if you re-read the post, the person will also have access to the studio to do their own work, which would be extremely costly and unrealistic for someone starting out to do.

It's easy to criticise this kind of offer if you don't understand the context.

I would have killed to get an opportunity like that when I were a youth.
Doubly desirable as I know Dave a long time as a good man - posts a bit of waffle here occasionally, but a great guy nonetheless

fitz

MagicMarker wrote: »

Anyone who ''works'' deserves to be paid, regardless of the industry

He/she is going to be paid. In kind.
By getting first hand instruction from a pro who makes money from teaching his craft, and by getting the use of a studio for free while they're working there. Look up the cost of a course, and the cost of studio time. It's not inconsiderable, so whoever gets the role isn't "working for free".
They're working for access to knowledge, networking opportunities and facilities.
It's a career investment, and if you can't see that, then you don't understand the context. These opportunities come up once in a blue moon for people starting out.

PaulBrewer

You won't be applying Magic?

MagicMarker

fitz wrote: »

He/she is going to be paid. In kind.
By getting first hand instruction from a pro who makes money from teaching his craft, and by getting the use of a studio for free while they're working there. Look up the cost of a course, and the cost of studio time. It's not inconsiderable, so whoever gets the role isn't "working for free".
They're working for access to knowledge, networking opportunities and facilities.
It's a career investment, and if you can't see that, then you don't understand the context. These opportunities come up once in a blue moon for people starting out.

Why do they come up once in a blue moon? Maybe if teenagers starting out now were paid a small wage there would be more people in the future to make these kind of offers?

Paid in kind? First hand instruction? Access to knowledge & facilities? The same can be said for ANY paid job.

Look, I'm not disputing that it's a good opportunity for kids starting out, I would have taken it up myself if I were a few years younger. But it doesn't change the fact that a job, ANY job, deserves a wage, regardless of how rare or invaluable it is. Choosing not to pay someone is just taking advantage of the lack of positions available, because they know they'll get applicants anyway.

Seziertisch

MagicMarker wrote: »

Yeah, amazing how that happens on an open forum.

Just out of curiosity, do you have some background/prior knowledge of the recording industry? I'm guessing not.

If you did, you would have known that it has its nuances like every other industry, and that getting a chance work in any studio, even if just to work for free (and this is regardless of whether there is a recession or not), is not a particularly easy thing, let alone getting a chance to work under an owner/producer like Studiorat who has a pretty good rep and who knows a lot of people in the industry. Whoever gets the "internship" will have a unique opportunity to start making a name for themselves.

Just because the Internet allows you to express your opinion, doesn't mean you always should. My point is my reason for not going around other forums expressing opinions on stuff I really don't know much about would be that it would be as much a waste of my own time as the time of people reading my posts. The signal to noise ratio is already pretty low online, why lower it ever further, I say.

madtheory

OK magicmarker, the point isn't getting across, let's try a different approach...

Something can have value without money as part of the transaction, because money is a symbol for value. Forgetting that is what causes a recession!

Interns don't get paid money, in any business. They're lucky to get a free lunch.

seziertech, good point abour SNR...

DamagedTrax

MagicMarker wrote: »

Why do they come up once in a blue moon? Maybe if teenagers starting out now were paid a small wage there would be more people in the future to make these kind of offers?

what??? clearly you have no concept of what the industry is like at the moment or else you'd realise the stupidity of that statement.

theres studios disappearing left, right & centre. thats the reason these placement oppertunities dont arise too often.

Neurojazz

I did laugh a bit inside when i saw the 'being able to do a spot of building' - conjured up an image of Conan for some reason

I worked in various music shops for a pittance for many, many years and the experience was worth it - but did receive minimum wage for it thankfully! - one of the lucky ones.

I might be tempted to do the same with my label on a commission basis when it expands

Seziertisch

Neurojazz wrote: »

I did laugh a bit inside when i saw the 'being able to do a spot of building' - conjured up an image of Conan for some reason

I worked in various music shops for a pittance for many, many years and the experience was worth it - but did receive minimum wage for it thankfully! - one of the lucky ones.

I might be tempted to do the same with my label on a commission basis when it expands

I though of those scenes in Alan Partridge where he is living in a mobile home while getting his dream home built ...

dav nagle

When I got work experience in Vicar Street 3 years ago I was buying lunch for producers and staff out of my own pocket, raw deal some might say. Do I regret it? No, why? ...because I got to know some seriously talented producers and engineers one of who I am now working with on a paid basis. When you put yourself out there even if it is for free you learn something even if you don't realize it you will.

MagicMarker

Seziertisch wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, do you have some background/prior knowledge of the recording industry? I'm guessing not.

Lol, and you're clearly the expert? Tell me, what kind of experience do I need to have an opinion?

DamagedTrax wrote: »

what??? clearly you have no concept of what the industry is like at the moment or else you'd realise the stupidity of that statement.

theres studios disappearing left, right & centre. thats the reason these placement oppertunities dont arise too often.

Oh, jeez, that couldn't have anything to do with a little thing called a recession could it? There were never that many good studios to begin with.

Welease

MagicMarker wrote: »

Lol, and you're clearly the expert? Tell me, what kind of experience do I need to have an opinion?
quote]

Enough to have an informed opinion as opposed to an opinion :P (i jest!!!)

Seziertisch

MagicMarker wrote: »

Lol, and you're clearly the expert? Tell me, what kind of experience do I need to have an opinion?

Well, if you had ANY experience or knowledge of the recording industry we wouldn't even be having this discussion with you because you would know that the line of argument you are taking is completely divorced from the reality of the situation...

It has been explained to you in detail where the flaws in your logic are, yet you are still here plugging away at it. This kind of behaviour suggests that you didn't come here with the purpose of actually maybe learning something (which is what this forum is, a place where people can exchange ideas and get informed about music production), but rather have some other reason unknown to the rest of us for posting here.

PaulBrewer

Seziertisch wrote: »

It has been explained to you in detail where the flaws in your logic are, yet you are still here plugging away at it.

Head, that's the story of me life ...

fitz

Gentlemen, I suggest at this stage that you stop feeding the troll.

dav nagle

fitz wrote: »

Gentlemen, I suggest at this stage that you stop feeding the troll.

I agree stop feeding the 'I know everything character'

MagicMarker

Seziertisch wrote: »

Well, if you had ANY experience or knowledge of the recording industry we wouldn't even be having this discussion with you because you would know that the line of argument you are taking is completely divorced from the reality of the situation...

Err, I've already said that working for free is expected of people starting out, I'm completely aware of the reality. What I'M saying is that people who WORK deserve to be PAID. Something which you'll find is perfectly logical.

Seziertisch wrote: »

It has been explained to you in detail where the flaws in your logic are

No it hasn't.

Seziertisch wrote: »

yet you are still here plugging away at it.

My apologies for sticking by my opinion.

Seziertisch wrote: »

This kind of behaviour suggests that you didn't come here with the purpose of actually maybe learning something (which is what this forum is, a place where people can exchange ideas and get informed about music production), but rather have some other reason unknown to the rest of us for posting here

I didn't click on this thread to learn anything actually, I saw the title on the main page and was curious, ya see, this forum has multiple purposes, I don't have to have the intention of learning to view or reply, ain't it wonderful?

And FYI, I have ''knowledge'' of the ''recording industry'', having done courses myself out of personal interest, not to mention being a gigging musician. Not that it means fúck all.

PaulBrewer

MagicMarker wrote: »

Not that it means fúck all.

Indeed .....

Shall we leave it at that boys? ... or I'll have to go looking for the keys of the Mods Cupboard ...

Back ON TOPIC please.

Serena08

Sounds like a great oppurtunity for someone I'm sure the experience alone would be pricless to someone who would never get a chance like this again:D Best of luck to who ever gets it

PaulBrewer

Serena08 wrote: »

Sounds like a great oppurtunity for someone I'm sure the experience alone would be pricless to someone who would never get a chance like this again:D Best of luck to who ever gets it

Well said Serena ...

Seziertisch

... you have done recording courses, are a gigging musician, presumably know quite a few musicians/people involved in recording and still consider that what Studiorat is offering to people to be what exactly?

Well, the people who would know best about what it is like for people starting out in the recording industry are those people themselves, and they will be queuing up at his door.

Do you know how many people graduate from the various music technology colleges and schools every year, that find their career paths stalled by the fact that the number of people "qualified" to work in the industry vastly exceeds the number of work places (even as a tea boy) available? The answer is the vast majority of them. Studiorat's offer is a sort of golden ticket.

This situation would have been the case regardless of whether or not there is a recession. In the Celtic Tiger years, none of these people would have refused Studiorat's offer, none of them would have said that they wouldn't do it because it was unpaid.

In fact, if Dave were to advertise this position and charge people for the chance to work in a studio environment he would probably find takers. And during the Celtic Tiger he would probably have found even more people willing to pay for it because they had the money.

sleepybb

Just wondering where the studio is exactly,I'll pm the op when i get home,but i'm not sure if i have the relevant experience in soldering/electronics to be of any use

MagicMarker

Seziertisch wrote: »

... you have done recording courses, are a gigging musician, presumably know quite a few musicians/people involved in recording and still consider that what Studiorat is offering to people to be what exactly?

Nothing. Keep up will you, I've already said in this thread that it's a good opportunity, I just think it would be decent to throw a few quid to someone who's working for you. How many times do I have to say that?

Seziertisch wrote: »

Well, the people who would know best about what it is like for people starting out in the recording industry are those people themselves, and they will be queuing up at his door.

I never said otherwise.

Seziertisch wrote: »

Do you know how many people graduate from the various music technology colleges and schools every year, that find their career paths stalled by the fact that the number of people "qualified" to work in the industry vastly exceeds the number of work places (even as a tea boy) available? The answer is the vast majority of them. Studiorat's offer is a sort of golden ticket.

Once again, I've never said otherwise.

Seziertisch wrote: »

This situation would have been the case regardless of whether or not there is a recession. In the Celtic Tiger years, none of these people would have refused Studiorat's offer, none of them would have said that they wouldn't do it because it was unpaid.

That's great.

Seziertisch wrote: »

In fact, if Dave were to advertise this position and charge people for the chance to work in a studio environment he would probably find takers. And during the Celtic Tiger he would probably have found even more people willing to pay for it because they had the money.

Yes they would. Does that magically change the fact the I think someone who's working should be paid something? No.

As for people calling me a troll because I have to a differing opinion to that of everyone else? Well, that's just stupid.

Rockshamrover

It sounds like a great opportunity for somebody starting out in the music production biz.

I am sure that as the trainee develops, he/she would receive a small retainer or even lunch vouchers:D

Music production is not an ordinary job, most of the people who do it are fanatical about it. It's not something people drift into. It's a vocation.

There will be dozens of people chasing this job and the person who gets it will feel like they have won the lotto. The losers will feel like losers.

Mars Bar

It would be class!

I presume it is located in Dublin?

jiltloop

MagicMarker maybe you should stop looking at this as a job, its more like a place in an exclusive college where you are the sole student. Just as you have to work hard in college you would have to work hard at this opportunity and learn in the process. And of course you don't get paid to go to college and actually quiet often you have to pay to access education.
I myself spent in the region of €4000 for one year's education in a sound engineering college with hardly any prospect of getting a job and limited amounts of time spent in a studio and I enjoyed every minute of it. The opportunity Studiorat is offering I would see as a free place in a better learning environment with a better chance of getting a job. Now can you see where we are coming from?

Savman

MagicMarker is a troll for questioning something? If that's the case, we may as well shut down boards.

Seziertisch

You ask

MagicMarker wrote: »

What gives you the idea that I don't understand the context? .

Then you ask regarding work experience places

MagicMarker wrote: »

Why do they come up once in a blue moon?.

This was without a trace of irony I might add, it was your "cutting" response to the statement that the intern would be

fitz wrote: »

...paid. In kind.

You are challenged on this

DamagedTrax wrote: »

what??? clearly you have no concept of what the industry is like at the moment or else you'd realise the stupidity of that statement.

theres studios disappearing left, right & centre. thats the reason these placement oppertunities dont arise too often.

to which you respond

MagicMarker wrote: »

Oh, jeez, that couldn't have anything to do with a little thing called a recession could it? There were never that many good studios to begin with.

After having said all this you respond to me when I ask

Seziertisch wrote: »

Do you know how many people graduate from the various music technology colleges and schools every year, that find their career paths stalled by the fact that the number of people "qualified" to work in the industry vastly exceeds the number of work places (even as a tea boy) available? The answer is the vast majority of them. Studiorat's offer is a sort of golden ticket.

that you

MagicMarker wrote: »

never said otherwise.

If you had never let alone thought not to mind "said" otherwise, why would you have said what you did in your previous post about internships coming up once in a blue moon?

And your reply to my comment

Seziertisch wrote: »

This situation would have been the case regardless of whether or not there is a recession. In the Celtic Tiger years, none of these people would have refused Studiorat's offer, none of them would have said that they wouldn't do it because it was unpaid.

is

MagicMarker wrote: »

That's great.

Which I can only presume implies that you knew all this already. Which based on your earlier comment about the recession obviously wasn't the case.

Savman

Aaaargh multiquote makes the baby jesus cry.

fitz

Guys, this is gone way OT. Mods, might be worth splitting the "working for free" conversation off into a seperate thread?

PMI

I actually think that the way he's done this is great, hes gonna get a guy that is not a bread head and will have the drive to work and learn not to just talk Sh** about what his teacher says is right in college.

I have no doubt that studio rat will slip the odd bit of cash his way but doing it this way the money will not be the driving force in the persons mind more like a reward and a perc and possibly further.

The persons CV will look alot better with actual studio work/experience on it, than a guy with nothing so for the sake of a few months work it may help him get further than the other 4000 in the pack.

studiorat is probably not gonna get anyone over 20 as by that point your usually completely conditioned to flat screen tvs, convertibles and money!

I say go for it myself, hell I started on about 50 a week back in 92, making tea, ordering gear, lining tape machines etc..etc.. REAL tape op stuff, living with parents and I def think it helped me to get where i am now.

also 20k, i wouldnt even set my alarm clock let alone get up

MagicMarker

Seziertisch wrote: »

You ask


Then you ask regarding work experience places


This was without a trace of irony I might add, it was your "cutting" response to the statement that the intern would be


You are challenged on this


to which you respond


After having said all this you respond to me when I ask


that you


If you had never let alone thought not to mind "said" otherwise, why would you have said what you did in your previous post about internships coming up once in a blue moon?

And your reply to my comment


is



Which I can only presume implies that you knew all this already. Which based on your earlier comment about the recession obviously wasn't the case.

I'm sure there's a point in there some where......