Am I the only that thinks Toyota will Never win Because of Trulli and Glock

huzy06

I believe that Toyota have one of the best cars out there and god knows they have put more than enough money into the development of it. But I believe that their drivers (Trulli especially) that are holding them Back. Trulli is a one lap specialist and thats all. Any race Ive looked at in the last few years hes been holding everyone up. The best example of this is the singapore GP last year. He was several seconds a lap slower thab everyone else. Glock hasnt shown any promise either. I believe Toyota need to put some money into getting better drivers rather than wasting it with two bad drivers. If they had promising young drivers Like Vettel and Kubica they would be dominating. If they can be in the top ten with the so called talent they have now then they would be winning races and constructors championships with some real talented drivers.

Anyway thats just my theroy Ive come up with as a life long fan of Formula One..

Please tell me if any of you agree...

amacachi

I can't say I can recall him holding everyone up in Singapore, not saying it didn't happen, just that I don't recall it.

Yesterday the problem was the tyres and that was it. It's more the team's poor decision making that's costing them, they were a good couple of laps shorter on fuel than they needed to be to get the front row and the tyres call was awful.

vectra

huzy06 wrote: »

But I believe that their drivers (Trulli especially) that are holding them Back. Trulli is a one lap specialist and thats all. Any race Ive looked at in the last few years hes been holding everyone up..

That is known in the sport as "The Trulli train"

Now
Put Alonso into that car and I reckon Button and Co. would have their hands full

huzy06

amacachi wrote: »

I can't say I can recall him holding everyone up in Singapore, not saying it didn't happen, just that I don't recall it.

Yesterday the problem was the tyres and that was it. It's more the team's poor decision making that's costing them, they were a good couple of laps shorter on fuel than they needed to be to get the front row and the tyres call was awful.

Rosberg had a really good chance of winning the Singapore GP but he was held up so long by Trulli his chance went. I dont think it was just their tyre choice either. Every has to use both the prime and the option tyre and everyone thats on a two stop strategy has to use the bad tyre for the same lenght of time.

amacachi

huzy06 wrote: »

Rosberg had a really good chance of winning the Singapore GP but he was held up so long by Trulli his chance went. I dont think it was just their tyre choice either. Every has to use both the prime and the option tyre and everyone thats on a two stop strategy has to use the bad tyre for the same lenght of time.

Yes but yesterday he was on the Medium in the middle, and longest, stint, so lost more time than most. Also the cars ahead of him were able to pull out a nice lead while on the super-softs which he had no chance of overhauling because he fell behind Vettel who was on Mediums for his last stint.

EvilMonkey

Who is better that they realistically could sign?

huzy06

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Who is better that they realistically could sign?

Does any remember Mika Salo. He replaced Schumacher the year he broke his leg at Silverstone. And he done really well. Vettel, Kubica, Rosberg, Beumi there are loads of drivers on that grid that are better than the two they've got at the min

Creeping-Death

Nick Heidfeld would be a good shout i reckon, a driver of his calibre could do well in the Toyota. And plus he's really due a win at this stage, 200+ career points without winning a single race is bloody good going IMO

EvilMonkey

huzy06 wrote: »

Does any remember Mika Salo. He replaced Schumacher the year he broke his leg at Silverstone. And he done really well. Vettel, Kubica, Rosberg, Beumi there are loads of drivers on that grid that are better than the two they've got at the min

Mika Salo didnt he already drive for toyota. I did say realisticly sign not who is beter, and your kind of pushing it with Beumi :P
Trulli is good in qualifying which means he can put the car up near the front, good for sponsors so he wont be going anywhere.

huzy06

Creeping-Death wrote: »

Nick Heidfeld would be a good shout i reckon, a driver of his calibre could do well in the Toyota. And plus he's really due a win at this stage, 200+ career points without winning a single race is bloody good going IMO

Definitely. But i dont he had the signs of a champion that vettel and rosberg have

mickdw

Bad strategy was to blame yesterday for trulli s problems. Blame the team I say.
Brawn is showing his genius again in relation to strategy and Dare I say that he had more to do with Schumi wins than would have been realised. Button is pulling the exact same trick now as schumi did for years.

vectra

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Who is better that they realistically could sign?

Adam Carrol

EvilMonkey

mickdw wrote: »

Bad strategy was to blame yesterday for trulli s problems. Blame the team I say.
Brawn is showing his genius again in relation to strategy and Dare I say that he had more to do with Schumi wins than would have been realised. Button is pulling the exact same trick now as schumi did for years.

And Alonso, massa, kimi, and hamilton to name a few that have been using it too since Schumacher.

huzy06

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Mika Salo didnt he already drive for toyota. I did say realisticly sign not who is beter, and your kind of pushing it with Beumi :P
Trulli is good in qualifying which means he can put the car up near the front, good for sponsors so he wont be going anywhere.

.Why could they not realistically sign any of the drivers I mentioned. They have the biggest budget out of any of the teams on the grid and they have already shown this year that they have a winning car but they just don't have they drivers to do it. And as far a qualifying goes it doesn't win races as they proved on Sunday, and more to the point it does not win points or championships. and I doubt that Toyota are happy to settle for second place in championships. Its an embarrassment for the biggest car company in the world

vectra

EvilMonkey wrote: »

And Alonso, massa, kimi, and hamilton to name a few that have been using it too since Schumacher.

Yes
But I assume that he (mickdw) is thinking that the "Brilliant Brawn" did not instruct them though :rolleyes:

mickdw

EvilMonkey wrote: »

And Alonso, massa, kimi, and hamilton to name a few that have been using it too since Schumacher.

Yes but Ross Brawn & Co get it so right much more often.

EvilMonkey

huzy06 wrote: »

.Why could they not realistically sign any of the drivers I mentioned. They have the biggest budget out of any of the teams on the grid and they have already shown this year that they have a winning car but they just don't have they drivers to do it. And as far a qualifying goes it doesn't win races as they proved on Sunday, and more to the point it does not win points or championships. and I doubt that Toyota are happy to settle for second place in championships. Its an embarrassment for the biggest car company in the world

Vettel - The redbull is better than the Toyota he is not going to leave.
Kubica - Could see him leaving BMW but is disadvantaged by his size with kers mandatory next year cant see Toyota signing him.
Rosberg - possibly not sure if he is better than trulli.
Beumi - Glock and trulli are better and more experienced.

Toyota would be delighted to finish second in the championship.

huzy06

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Vettel - The redbull is better than the Toyota he is not going to leave.
Kubica - Could see him leaving BMW but is disadvantaged by his size with kers mandatory next year cant see Toyota signing him.
Rosberg - possibly not sure if he is better than trulli.
Beumi - Glock and trulli are better and more experienced.

Toyota would be delighted to finish second in the championship.

I dont think they would overly proud though. The biggest motor company in the world possibly will be beaten by a tiny team with only one sponsor who had one day of pre season testing and a budget that toyota would consider spare change. They have been saying for years that they will release the lexus LFA when they win the constructors championship. Looks like that car will be out of date by the time they win if they keep the line up they have now.

vectra

mickdw wrote: »

Yes but Ross Brawn & Co get it so right much more often.

He didnt get it right last year did he?

huzy06 wrote: »

The biggest motor company in the world possibly will be beaten by a tiny team with only one sponsor

So are we to assume that Brawn have the whole season wrapped up already ?

pburns

Trulli is (OVER ONE LAP, ON FRESH TYRES) the quickest man in F1 bar none. I've even heard it said he is the quickest qualifier since Senna - go figure... He is also a very decent and genuine bloke, a real good guy.

As an overall package though he is one of the LEAST ADAPTABLE drivers out there. He just can't seem to adopt to anything less than perfection and even the best cars can become a handful over a GP didstance with tyre degradation, different fuel loads, weather, track conditions etc. So no, I don't think he's what Toyota need.

Glock is a better racer but perhaps lacks that last ounce of outright pace that the top guys have. If you could blend their best qualities together you'd have one hell of a race driver!

huzy06

vectra wrote: »

He didnt get it right last year did he?



So are we to assume that Brawn have the whole season wrapped up already ?

Not necessarily but at this point it doesn't look like anyone else is gonna challenge just yet. Yes any other team could win but I seriously doubt it will be Toyota and I believe that their drivers are the sole reason for that..

vectra

pburns wrote: »

Trulli is (OVER ONE LAP, ON FRESH TYRES) the quickest man in F1 bar none.

You have got to be kidding me..!!

3 pole positions in his F1 career doesnt look very quick to me.?
I dont see him holding any records either.

Compare this with the driver that a lot of people put down but I will still rate him highly
Kimi::
# In the 2005 and 2008 seasons, he equalled Michael Schumacher's record of 10 fastest race laps in a season, set in 2004.
# He currently holds the third highest record for total fastest laps at 35 (up to and including the 2008 Brazilian Grand Prix), thus making him the highest ranked driver still active.
# In 2008, Silverstone marked his sixth fastest race lap in a row (Spain, Turkey, Monaco, Canada, France, Britain), passing Michael Schumacher with 5 and 1 behind record holder Alberto Ascari with 7. His 6 consecutive fastest laps put him level with Alberto Ascari for most consecutive fastest laps in single season. Ascari's 7 were set over 2 years with 6 in 1952 and 1 in 1953.

huzy06 wrote: »

Not necessarily but at this point it doesn't look like anyone else is gonna challenge just yet. Yes any other team could win but I seriously doubt it will be Toyota and I believe that their drivers are the sole reason for that..

I agree it will be difficult to take away the hold they have on the constructers championship but as for the drivers..??
wel
2 or 3 bad races later on when everyone plays catchup could swing the boat fairly quickly

pburns

vectra wrote: »

You have got to be kidding me..!!

3 pole positions in his F1 career doesnt look very quick to me.?
I dont see him holding any records either.

Compare this with the driver that a lot of people put down but I will still rate him highly
Kimi::
# In the 2005 and 2008 seasons, he equalled Michael Schumacher's record of 10 fastest race laps in a season, set in 2004.
# He currently holds the third highest record for total fastest laps at 35 (up to and including the 2008 Brazilian Grand Prix), thus making him the highest ranked driver still active.
# In 2008, Silverstone marked his sixth fastest race lap in a row (Spain, Turkey, Monaco, Canada, France, Britain), passing Michael Schumacher with 5 and 1 behind record holder Alberto Ascari with 7. His 6 consecutive fastest laps put him level with Alberto Ascari for most consecutive fastest laps in single season. Ascari's 7 were set over 2 years with 6 in 1952 and 1 in 1953.

I'm not interested in getting into a fanboy flame war but Kimi is finished for me, even if he goes on to win another WDC or two (unlikely!). He too has shown a lack of adaptability and has not looked the same driver since the tyre-rule change in '07 (flukey WDC not withstanding). Massa is at least his equal in qualifying.

Webber is historically another very quick qualifier but we see him pegged this year by young Vettel. He is very close though and deserves some latitude considering his leg is full of metal... The Aussie is also a better racer than Trulli.

Beekay

pburns wrote: »

flukey WDC not withstanding

How is winning a WDC flukey?

vectra

Beekay wrote: »

How is winning a WDC flukey?

Simple
Look at Hamilton last year in Brazil :rolleyes:

enzo7

in fairness to both kimi and hamilton they both deserved their championships and im not a fan of either, well kimi i can tolerate at times like when he does nice things and scores some points for ferrari:D

mickdw

vectra wrote: »

He didnt get it right last year did he?

I was talking about strategy not overall team performance but seeing as you asked, no, he didnt get it right. He was an absolute fool to realise that last years car was never going to be quick and to therefore concentrate on 2009 specially due to the major rule changes. He was a fool to think that maybe if he put everything into this years design they might come out ahead of the major players who were busy with updating the 2008 car. So yes you are right, the man is a fool... and Honda were right to pull the plug on him and his bunch of clowns.

EvilMonkey

vectra wrote: »

He didnt get it right last year did he?
So are we to assume that Brawn have the whole season wrapped up already ?

I dont think he designed last years car, he was on a "sabbatical" from F1 then signed for Honda early on that season and began reorganising the team.

Dont know if they have it sown up but they have a good lead in the constructors championship.

vectra

mickdw wrote: »

I was talking about strategy not overall team performance but seeing as you asked, no, he didnt get it right. He was an absolute fool to realise that last years car was never going to be quick and to therefore concentrate on 2009 specially due to the major rule changes. He was a fool to think that maybe if he put everything into this years design they might come out ahead of the major players who were busy with updating the 2008 car. So yes you are right, the man is a fool... and Honda were right to pull the plug on him and his bunch of clowns.

Ermm
where did I ever say Ross Brawn was a fool ??

On the contrary he would be one of the cleverest men on the grid

EvilMonkey wrote: »

I dont think he designed last years car, he was on a "sabbatical" from F1 then signed for Honda early on that season and began reorganising the team.

Yes
you are right
He didnt design last years car.
He is NOT a designer
He is a strategist.;)

Min

Trulli is one of the best drivers in F1 but got a bad reputation in races due to being too fast in qualifying.
Look at 2005 for example, McLaren and Renault had the best cars but he was putting his car ahead of some of these cars, obviously over the longer runs the McLaren and Renault were faster, this is where the term Trulli train came from - due to drivers with better cars being too slow in qualifying.

In Bahrain, Trulli was 2 tenths faster than anyone fuel adjusted, he could have won that race and on a three stopper if he had been fuelled a little longer, he could still have got pole and made a three stopper work as he was putting in the fastest laps of the race on the option tyre. The team got it wrong with the prime tyre, he still did far better than Glock on that tyre but it was the wrong tyre to be on at that stage.

There is an article about this on autosport.com, the team say Trulli got everything out of the car but they put him on the wrong strategy and it started on Saturday with the fuel load which was a response to how the car treated the softer tyre.
Pascal Vasselon says knowing now what happened they would have fuelled Trulli more and still have enough in hand to get pole, the extra laps would have been enough to get far enough ahead to pit and avoid traffic. A three stopper would have worked but during the race they changed from a three stopper to a two stopper to avoid traffic due to not having enough fuel during the first stint....

Trulli got pole and fastest lap, it was bad strategy that lost them the race, not the driver.

2011

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