Advice Sought

Soodlebum

Hey there.
In June 2007 - my domestic circumstances changed dramatically. I went from being a public servant on a career break, to becoming the sole bread-winner for myself and my 3 dependant kids. I was lucky enough to get my job back, and out of the blue, all the household bills became my responsibility. It very quickly became clear that the sums were not adding up, and I went to MABS - the Money Advice & Budgeting Service. Mabs did what they do best - and set up a budget for me. In fairness - I had a lot of personal debt - credit cards, store cards, personal loan, and credit union loan. All of my creditors accepted the MABS budget, except for one High Street Bank. The whinged they weren't getting enough, and queried my MABS budget which included an amount of €10 per MONTH for Lotto. To keep them quiet, my budget was rejigged, with the €10 being added to the total which was spread on a pro-rata basis among my creditors. I was left in the position where every single cent I earned was earmarked - there was no room for contingencies - and a broken washing machine would be a disaster. Anyway, I took pride in the fact that I adhered to my budget, and made my payments faithfully. The same bank still were not happy, and appied for a judgement mortgage on my home, which they got. When a Financial Institution seeks a judgement mortgage, the courts will not accept a plea of 'inability to pay', so I had no say in the matter. Thats where I stand.

Now my MABS advisor has suggested that I completely withhold payment from this particular bank, forcing them to take me to court, where I would be able to put my case in person. She says that we, the people, are baling out this particular bank, and their inhumanity and intransigence should be high-lighted. She wants to make my story public - along the lines of the people who high-lighted the Permanent TSB earlier this week.

I am not the sort of person who usually puts her head above the parapet, and I am very reluctant to bring any sort of publicity to my case (for the kids sake particularly), but i am also very aware, that in the poverty stakes, i am about 18 months ahead of the posse. My financial disaster happened a year and a half before the economic downturn, and if this is the way that banks are going, people should be made aware.

This whole problem may be academic - as with all the pay cuts etc, I am going to have to go back to MABS to restructure my budget, as my income has been reduced by €70 a week so far, with more cuts looming. What will probably happen is that the bank will probably take me to court anyway..... but should I try to get a bit of publicity, or should I sing dumb?

Any advice, comments, or suggestions would be very welcome. By the way - I will go to my grave singing the praises of MABS. They are wonderful, and the feeling that I had somebody on my side prevented many sleepless nights. Thanks for reading this far, and as I say - all comments welcome.

eamonnm79

Soodlebum wrote: »

Hey there.
In June 2007 - my domestic circumstances changed dramatically. I went from being a public servant on a career break, to becoming the sole bread-winner for myself and my 3 dependant kids. I was lucky enough to get my job back, and out of the blue, all the household bills became my responsibility. It very quickly became clear that the sums were not adding up, and I went to MABS - the Money Advice & Budgeting Service. Mabs did what they do best - and set up a budget for me. In fairness - I had a lot of personal debt - credit cards, store cards, personal loan, and credit union loan. All of my creditors accepted the MABS budget, except for one High Street Bank. The whinged they weren't getting enough, and queried my MABS budget which included an amount of €10 per MONTH for Lotto. To keep them quiet, my budget was rejigged, with the €10 being added to the total which was spread on a pro-rata basis among my creditors. I was left in the position where every single cent I earned was earmarked - there was no room for contingencies - and a broken washing machine would be a disaster. Anyway, I took pride in the fact that I adhered to my budget, and made my payments faithfully. The same bank still were not happy, and appied for a judgement mortgage on my home, which they got. When a Financial Institution seeks a judgement mortgage, the courts will not accept a plea of 'inability to pay', so I had no say in the matter. Thats where I stand.

Now my MABS advisor has suggested that I completely withhold payment from this particular bank, forcing them to take me to court, where I would be able to put my case in person. She says that we, the people, are baling out this particular bank, and their inhumanity and intransigence should be high-lighted. She wants to make my story public - along the lines of the people who high-lighted the Permanent TSB earlier this week.

I am not the sort of person who usually puts her head above the parapet, and I am very reluctant to bring any sort of publicity to my case (for the kids sake particularly), but i am also very aware, that in the poverty stakes, i am about 18 months ahead of the posse. My financial disaster happened a year and a half before the economic downturn, and if this is the way that banks are going, people should be made aware.

This whole problem may be academic - as with all the pay cuts etc, I am going to have to go back to MABS to restructure my budget, as my income has been reduced by €70 a week so far, with more cuts looming. What will probably happen is that the bank will probably take me to court anyway..... but should I try to get a bit of publicity, or should I sing dumb?

Any advice, comments, or suggestions would be very welcome. By the way - I will go to my grave singing the praises of MABS. They are wonderful, and the feeling that I had somebody on my side prevented many sleepless nights. Thanks for reading this far, and as I say - all comments welcome.

What is the difference between the French and the rest of us? They have self respect.
They Say to the powers that be, I am a person damn it and if you treat me with less respect than I deserve I will let you know about it.
If everyone in your circumstance spoke up for themselves you would feel much better about your situation and you might cause change?
The fact that people think that keeping quiet in your position is an option says a lot about our society. IE its not very democratic by the people for the people.
Shout as loud as you can the sqeeky wheel gets the greese!

Quartet

Soodlebum wrote: »

Hey there.

Now my MABS advisor has suggested that I completely withhold payment from this particular bank, forcing them to take me to court, where I would be able to put my case in person. She says that we, the people, are baling out this particular bank, and their inhumanity and intransigence should be high-lighted. She wants to make my story public - along the lines of the people who high-lighted the Permanent TSB earlier this week.

So the situation as I percieve it is that at the moment is that you are obliged to pay all the debt owed to that bank under threat of of a judgement mortgage

Quick question then - do you have a mortgage with another institution?
ie who holds the primary interest (title deads) to your house?

If you withhold payment (an action that is never recommended as it means that you have defaulted on your borrowings) then will you force the sale of your house if another institution doesnt have a holding stake and end up effectivly homeless with 3 dependant children?

I would recommend getting a second opinion on this before deciding on this course of action.
Specifically check out the following from the Financial Regulators web site

http://www.financialregulator.ie/about-us/Pages/ComplaintsagainstFinancialServiceProviders.aspx

Complaints against financial institutions or complaints about financial services should first be discussed with the financial institution concerned. Under our Consumer Protection Code, all regulated financial services firms must have a complaints handling procedure in place.
If you are not happy with the response, you have the right to refer the complaint to the Financial Services Ombudsman or Pensions Ombudsman, which are statutory independent bodies, separate from the Financial Regulator.
The Financial Services Ombudsman deals with complaints against financial services firms, including financial advisors and financial products. The Pensions Ombudsman deals with complaints about any person responsible for managing your employer pension scheme or PRSA.
If you wish to make such a complaint, we will advise you of the procedures involved, help you with any questions you might have and supply you with all the appropriate contact details for the institutions in question.
Visit our personal finance website for a step-by-step guide on how to make a complaint against a financial services firm.

oscarBravo

Moved from Irish Economy.

SarahMc

I don't get it. You are claiming no personal responsibility for what has happened. You borrowed money, you have to repay - No?

Darragh29

Soodlebum wrote: »

I am not the sort of person who usually puts her head above the parapet

You're going to have to be. The people you're dealing with are the scum that floats around on top of a dirty bucket of p*ss. You'll have to stand up and be counted, these people who are tormenting you are being paid hundreds of thousands a year and your debt to them is being underpinned by the government, which you as a taxpayer are in turn paying for.

I listened to the woman who had the issue with Permanent TSB during the week, she stood up for what she believed in and the next day she got an apology from the bank and they won't do that again in a hurry.

Oppose them and frustrate them in every way that you can, the FS Ombudsman, the media, everything. Throw the f*cking kitchen sink at them, but don't back down.

Darragh29

eamonnm79 wrote: »

What is the difference between the French and the rest of us? They have self respect.
They Say to the powers that be, I am a person damn it and if you treat me with less respect than I deserve I will let you know about it.
If everyone in your circumstance spoke up for themselves you would feel much better about your situation and you might cause change?
The fact that people think that keeping quiet in your position is an option says a lot about our society. IE its not very democratic by the people for the people.
Shout as loud as you can the sqeeky wheel gets the greese!

Very true. We are a bend-over nation of head scratchers. I wish I lived in France where if this sort of sh*te was going on over there, I could occupy an airport and sit on a runway or something. I hate this sitting idly by while decent hardworking people get absolutely shafted.

The Sweeper

SarahMc, the OP admits she had financial problems and high personal debt. The issue here is not "you have to repay the money". The OP went to MABS to work out a budget to stick to in order to allow her to pay the money.

The high street bank that she owes money to is whinging that they aren't getting enough money.

We're in this position because the banks agreed to lend money to people who couldn't repay it. The never-never culture grew and grew until banks, mortgage companies and credit card companies would extend credit to any fool without properly checking if that fool had the capacity to repay the loans - and frankly, when you're hocked to your eyeballs to seven or eight different parties, well no, you don't have the capacity to repay them.

Now that self-same bank, that capitalised on a line of cheap credit through the good times and loaned out money for its own profit without due consideration of all of the risks, is complaining - not because it's not being repayed, but because it's not being repayed quickly enough for its liking.

We're all, globally, in the **** right now because the economic crisis, and if the world banks default on their hundreds of billions of debt, we'll see times unprecedented in all of history. Against that backdrop, the notion is that the bank should cut the OP some slack in repaying the loan - she IS repaying it, they don't feel she's repaying it in large enough sums or at a fast enough pace.

VB1962

You've clearly been through a lot - and it seems you've managed quite well despite everything you've had to go through - however, I'm not so sure the advice you're getting on the matter of a judgement mortgage is complete.

Sorry for the long reply but I'm trying to explain the processes involved as I understand them from your original post.

You're right that inability to pay is not a defence against such a move by the financial institution - in fact, its probably the very reason they would do it in the first place - i.e. to protect their debt by securing it legally on an asset owned by you.

A judgement mortgage is two things - first the financial institution goes to court and has the Judge confirm that you do in fact owe the money. This being confirmed by the Judge, the court issues a 'judgement' against you. If you had no assets the 'judgement' against you would simply be registered with the Irish Credit Bureau but it would seem that you have an asset (usually a house) against which the judgement can be registered as a mortgage - a judgement mortgage. It ranks after any existing mortgage you already have and simply means that if you ever sell the house that the financial institution must be paid off after the primary mortgage holder gets their loan paid off.

All that this means is that the financial institution has done as much as they can within the law to 'secure' their debt. Its unlikely that they will try to take it any further by, for instance, seeking an installment order against you if you continue to make the repayments you can afford. An installment order is where they go back to the courts and seek a particular repayment from you - simple defence will be your MABS budget and this, along with your track record of keeping to the budget will allow any Judge to see you for what you are - a DECENT, HARD WORKING, HONEST TO GOD ORDINARY CITIZEN doing what a lot of heroes do - raise a family and get on with life as best they can.

I am very surprised with the advice given by a MABS advisor and I would disagree strongly with this course of action - witholding repayments weakens your position in front of a judge considerablyand could leave you open to all sorts of accusations - remember that it was a Court that granted the judgement based on its view of fairness etc. If MABS has a problem with the system, then they surely have a method of representing their clients without using you personally as an example. I think you will find limited sympathy with their suggested course of action.

Best of luck - you've come this far as you said - don't give up now.

Darragh29

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

Now that self-same bank, that capitalised on a line of cheap credit through the good times and loaned out money for its own profit without due consideration of all of the risks, is complaining - not because it's not being repayed, but because it's not being repayed quickly enough for its liking.

The same bank has probably been recapitalised by the state and on this basis, has had a provision made by the governent in the financial accounts of the bank, for the loss suffered by the bank for the OP defaulting on his/her loan, along with tens of thousands of other defaulters, and this is all in addition to the bank guarantee scheme.

So by chasing the OP for the repayments, the banks want to be paid twice for the liability, once by the state and once again by the OP.

Soodlebum

SarahMc wrote: »

I don't get it. You are claiming no personal responsibility for what has happened. You borrowed money, you have to repay - No?

SarahMc - I truly hope that you, or anybody else reading this does not end up in a situation like mine. Yes. I borrowed the money. I borrowed it when I was in a marriage to an extremely selfish man. He wouldn't give me money for essentials like back to school - Christmas etc. The debt was incurred over many many years, as I topped it up every September and December, and I was paying it back, never once defaulting on a repayment. Then this selfish, lunatic I was married to ran away. Just like that. He left out home in June 2007, and we havent seen him since. As I said, all of a sudden I was the sole breadwinner. Believe me when I say it was a terrifying place to be.
To everybody else who took the trouble to reply - many thanks. I think that the situation is going to be taken out of my hands now anyway. I have to go back to MABS now, to rejig my budget, as my take-home pay has been reduced by €70.00 per week, with more cuts in the offing. I have been told that the bank will more than likely to take me to court to get an installment order. But, as one of the replies above stated - as long as I keep paying something, I would have no difficulty in standing up in court and with my hand on my heart, telling the judge that whatever I am paying them is all I can afford. Thank you all very very much for your interest. (Isn't Boards a great place? Free, impartial advice!! -I love it!!)

Stheno

Soodlebum wrote: »

SarahMc - I truly hope that you, or anybody else reading this does not end up in a situation like mine. Yes. I borrowed the money. I borrowed it when I was in a marriage to an extremely selfish man. He wouldn't give me money for essentials like back to school - Christmas etc. The debt was incurred over many many years, as I topped it up every September and December, and I was paying it back, never once defaulting on a repayment. Then this selfish, lunatic I was married to ran away. Just like that. He left out home in June 2007, and we havent seen him since. As I said, all of a sudden I was the sole breadwinner. Believe me when I say it was a terrifying place to be.
To everybody else who took the trouble to reply - many thanks. I think that the situation is going to be taken out of my hands now anyway. I have to go back to MABS now, to rejig my budget, as my take-home pay has been reduced by €70.00 per week, with more cuts in the offing. I have been told that the bank will more than likely to take me to court to get an installment order. But, as one of the replies above stated - as long as I keep paying something, I would have no difficulty in standing up in court and with my hand on my heart, telling the judge that whatever I am paying them is all I can afford. Thank you all very very much for your interest. (Isn't Boards a great place? Free, impartial advice!! -I love it!!)

Have you applied through the courts for maintenance from your ex?

Even if you do not know where he is, I believe you can have a maintenance order put in place, and if he turns up it can be enforced.

That aside best of luck OP, you'll eventually get there.

Soodlebum

Hiya - me again. Thanks Nougatti!! But I don't really think thats an option. A week after he vanished, I reported him as a missing person to the Gardai. The day he left, he was talking about suicide, and I was genuinely worried. At first the guards didn't take me seriously, but then a friend in the force traced his credit card movements. He phoned me, and said - "Dont worry - he is still alive. Very much alive - and in Bangkok". And that is where he still is. He phoned our kids on Christmas Day, with the news that his girlfriend is pregnant. Anytime he phones, he is off his face. He causes untold grief to the kids - they have since changed their numbers - at my insistance. He left a business behind him, which was floundering. I had to go through the horrors of a liquidation process. My car was repossessed, and one night shortly after he left, 4 men appeared at my door, with baseball bats and hurleys, shoved past me, and ransacked the house. They even looked under the beds, thinking he was hiding underneath. When it became clear that he was not in the house, one of them apologised to me!! Me and the kids have been through hell. You can say what you want about marriages going bust, business's going bust, but for a man to leave his 3 kids is one step beyond!!!
After all of the above, and having survived 22 months, maybe now you will understand that I can do without any further grief. The thought of more court cases, wranging and stress leaves me cold. As I said, thanks very much for the good wishes. Now - 22 months later, while our standard of living has decreased dramatically, I can honestly say that our quality of live has improved 100%. Every cloud, eh? Thanks again.

Hi,
I do think you should get a second opinion.
Also, is your credit rating / debt too large that you have no means of perhaps consolidating these loans so as to pay off the whingy bank instantly and work out a different repayment with a more understanding/patient creditor instead? Perhaps if you have been making repayments to one of your creditors consistently with no faults they may top up their loan to clear the other one and you can continue paying them instead.

Good luck! Hope you manage to get through this!

Stheno

No problem

Have you double and triple checked that you have claimed any tax rebates due to you for the past few years? It might be small overall, but any extra money helps in a situation like yours.

Esel

MABS have probably advised you on this, but are you entitled to a Family Income Supplement? You may not have been before, but things might have changed since your income was reduced, or after the next reduction.

havetoquit

Couldn't agree more having lived in both France and Germany myself, but hey! that does not mean that we have to continue with this defeatist attitude and this feeling of 'them' and 'us' It is surely never too late to stand up for one's rights. Where I feel also needs to be done is in the health sector, but guess that belongs to another forum. I often feel that we Irish tend to have a subservient attitude towards beaurocracy and feel intimidated by it. One so often hears 'Ah sure what is the point, things won't change 'and such defeatist remarks, so nothing will get done. I noted among German and French friends that they tended to show respect only where it was rightfully deserved and would without hesitation take on their local Government members, Banks etc just as easily and with the same level of confidence as they would any other public service area where a complaint needed to be lodged and action seen to be taken.