Getting out of forestry 3 yr old plantation

F.D

Hi I'm just wondering has anyone got out of forestry or ever looked into it
There was land planted before we inherited it around 50 acres but 20 acres was prime tillage ground that should have never been planted, it is after been planted 3 years now and we want to get out of it and turn that 20 acres back into grazing or tillage, coillte are looking after it for 4 years i think then it is handed back to us, What are the penalties? i know the premium and grant will have to be paid back but is there anything else i'm missing

Johnnyr

There is a Lands Taken Out section in the Forest Service, Johnstown Castle. They should be able to tell you how much it will cost to repay the grants&premia and also advise of other implications.

F.D

rang johnstown castle and was given a rough idea of the cost so they said to send in a written letter with the map numbers and they would give the exact figure, now i'm wondering what way it works with coillte or what contracts we are tied to with them, it looks like they got the grant to plant and look after it for 4 years i presume they got the money its our loss if we get out of the trees ? according to the person i was talking to in johnstown castle its our land we can do what we want with it

Johnnyr

The payment of the establishment grant is made in two installments. 75% is after the initial works have been completed in year 1 and the remaining 25% in year 4. This is to ensure that the trees are establihsed and growing well. You mentioned earlier that the plantation is 3 years old, so Coillte would not be fully paid yet for the establishment of the site. I presume the contract will cease at this point, when the 2nd installment is paid.

Coillte also had other schemes where, the person planting would enter a partnership with Coillte for the life of the forest. In this case Coillte would provide a % of the projected timber revenue of front. This was attractive to more mature people in particular, who wouldn't live to see a return from final harvest, so they got some cash up front. In your case this doesn't seem likely from the description you give. It is more likely that your relative just availed of the afforestation services. A phone call to your local Coillte farm forestry person would be useful to clear things up regarding the contractual obligations.
http://www.coillte.ie/businesses/forestry/coillte_farm_forestry_services/

Driseog

F.D wrote: »

Hi I'm just wondering has anyone got out of forestry or ever looked into it
There was land planted before we inherited it around 50 acres but 20 acres was prime tillage ground that should have never been planted, it is after been planted 3 years now and we want to get out of it and turn that 20 acres back into grazing or tillage, coillte are looking after it for 4 years i think then it is handed back to us, What are the penalties? i know the premium and grant will have to be paid back but is there anything else i'm missing

As far as I'm aware land that goes into forestry cannot be taken back out. But I think, say your 20 acres could be reverted back to tillage as long as you forest 20 acres somewhere else. Basically the land can be changed just as long as the overall forest area remains the same if that makes any sense.

F.D

After a fair bit of investigation we have a the price of what we have to pay back to get the trees out of this 20 acre field. it is coming to around the 43k mark, that will pay back the money earned over the past 4 years and the land will be ours to do what we like with, also out of this coillte will be paid in full for the work they carried out over the past 4 years and will be out of the picture too
Maybe the way reps is going and the current climate we are mad but at the same time it is a good tillage field for just over 2 k per acre if you were trying to buy it or rent it it would cost a lot more.
Then we are left with getting rid of the trees, I dont know how much of a hold 4 year old trees have in the ground or if they are salable to someone who is starting out a plantation of there own in the near future?
If not i suppose i will have to get some sort of flail topper or mulcher to cut the trees out of it and rotavate the roots up,
If any body has any suggestions on this i would be gratefull

blue5000

I think what driseog says is true, you could look at longterm lease of land in West to save you some of the 43k, are they hardwood or softwood? some of the nurseries might want them for infilling next winter, what about christmas trees?

F.D

They are conifirs Douglas Fir i think, i dont know if they are what is used as christmas trees, i mentioned it to one person i was talking to in coillte and he said they probably would not take them.
I went out and dug one up one of them yesterday to see how much root there is and i was surprised to see it was fairly small, and easy to get out of the ground they are between 1.5 and 3 foot tall so i'd reckon you could transplant them easy enough. I never thought about a longterm lease on land that could be an option, i wonder has many other people taken land like that to grow trees, whats the pros and cons?

blue5000

F.D wrote: »

They are conifirs Douglas Fir i think, i dont know if they are what is used as christmas trees, i mentioned it to one person i was talking to in coillte and he said they probably would not take them.
I went out and dug one up one of them yesterday to see how much root there is and i was surprised to see it was fairly small, and easy to get out of the ground they are between 1.5 and 3 foot tall so i'd reckon you could transplant them easy enough. I never thought about a longterm lease on land that could be an option, i wonder has many other people taken land like that to grow trees, whats the pros and cons?

Try an auctioneer in Mayo/galway areas Pros are tax free premiums for 12 years maybe more, Lots of cons tho
finding the land
planting it again
who owns the trees long term
realisticlly how much will you make out of tillage?

Try asking an auctioneer if anything is available? what is your time frame, spring planting next yr?
neighbour of mine says if you hate your relations plant trees!

F.D

Even if we break even on the payments on the loan and have a bit along with it i would rather put the field back into grass or tillage or even some other renewable crop that is less permanant, another key factor is the farm and our house are away from each other and this field is smack bang in the middle so eventually we wont be able to see one from the other, i know this wasnt my grand uncle's concern at the time but it would be nice for us now.
I hope to be moving on clearing the ground and having it ready by spring at the latest
Lots of boggy ground not to far from home and the sleive blooms too you'd never know where there'd be land for planting, you might be on to something, i will have to look into the cost of planting maintenence etc it might be too expensive.
on another note,one man we was talking too is just after cutting down the last of his trees that were planted by his father fado fado, he has a stock pile with no one interested in buying them so you would wonder what way the market will be in 30 years time anyway?

The_Conductor

Its a reasonable assumption that the market for white softwoods- such as the endemic Sitka Spruce plantations- will be limited in the future. Those who decided to plant a proper forest of native species- and who have Scots Pine and other species in the mix- should find themselves very happily surprised. Those who planted Ash and some other species- have to actively guard their forest lots........ It depends...........

Wild Bill

smccarrick wrote: »

Its a reasonable assumption that the market for white softwoods- such as the endemic Sitka Spruce plantations- will be limited in the future. Those who decided to plant a proper forest of native species- and who have Scots Pine and other species in the mix- should find themselves very happily surprised. Those who planted Ash and some other species- have to actively guard their forest lots........ It depends...........

Fibre for energy is the future; folk with Sitka will be smiling and the "native" plants are not adapted to the global warming we are assured is upon us. Especially as the native hardwoods won't be ready for 100 years! (You'll sneak a quick rotation of Sitka while we see if the warming is true). Ash was always recognised as a valuable exception - for the Hurley butts. :cool:

The_Conductor

There is a vast difference between global warming and climate change...... We may be able to grow Sitka Spruce far better than anywhere else in the world- but part of the problem is a monoculture immediately exposes us and makes us vunerable to any threats that may evolve that target Sitka. The reason for planting mixtures is not solely to maximise growth potential.


Personally- I'd be very surprised to see Sitka used as biomass production- and even if you are talking about sneaking in a Sitka rotation while waiting for your Scots Pine to mature (or pick another species)- you have to factor that the wholesale price for red deal is almost 3 times that of comparable quality white deal- but the rotation length is only a little over 2 times as long.

I'm not against Sitka spruce at all per se- I am against monocultures- and actively in favour of attempts to regenerate good stands of native species. You could go further- and ask what are native species really are- after all, Arbutus Eunedo (the Strawberry tree) is also native to Portugal- and very obviously hitched a ride here at the end of the last ice age. On the other hand- all those peatlands that conservationalists spend vast amounts of time, effort and money trying to save- are actually the result of the farming activities of our ancestors.......

Monocultures (of any species) are not natural- and are dangerous- as you've no idea the threats to that particular species that may occur around the corner (think back to our potato famine for inspiration......)

Wild Bill

Don't necessarily disagree on the mono-species; we know what happened the native Elm!

What annoys me is this "native" fetish. Not just Sitka; Norway spruce, larch, Douglas fir are conifers that do well here. And "aliens" such as beech and sycamore (only 1,000 thousand years here!), Spanish chestnut and several maples are all suited to this country.

For autumn colours larch, maple and beech are way superior at improving the visual aspect of the landscape than ash (particularly hopeless), alder (ditto) and even oak. Birch and cherry are the only native "big trees" with a dash of reliable colour.

But, sadly, if you are planting for money - rotation lenght is nearly everything and I'd say planting Sitka today is less of a gamble than planting Scot's pine!

The_Conductor

Perhaps we should be emphasising the recreational aspect of forestry more than the purely commercial aspect? There are few people who plant forestry (even Sitka) with the intention of harvesting them themselves- its a more intergenerational thing. Unfortunately we have no recent silvicultural heritage on which to draw strengths- in the manner they do in France, Germany and the Nordic countries in particular (but even in the cooperative forestry projects in Spain and elsewhere).

I don't equate forestry, in its purest form, with biomass production- which is a wholly seperate enterprise.

maidhc

Be careful.

Before you do anything make sure the relevant enforcement section of the Dept of Agriculture are happy and that you will not be prosecuted.. I don't mean from a grants point of view, but the fines under the forestry acts are severe, and worse is you can be ordered to reinstate the forestry.