Vehicles seized for non-VRT payment

DonJose

Revenue officials have seized nearly 300 vehicles, most of which were imported from the North, for non-payment of Vehicle Registration Tax (VRT) in the last month.

In a major crackdown on VRT offences on vehicles purchased across the Border, the Revenue said it challenged 3,256 vehicles in an operation carried between late March and early April. Of those, 658 were found to be non-compliant.

Some 276 vehicles were seized for non-payment of VRT. The VRT at risk, in these cases, amounted to €1.4 million, the Revenue said.

The economic slowdown and the poor availability of credit have led to increased import activity in the car market, as buyers from the State head to the UK and Northern Ireland.

Some dealers in the North are reporting a significant increase in their retail business from the Republic and are now actively taking part-exchange vehicles from the State.

The Revenue said the figures reflected “the increased volume of vehicles being purchased in Northern Ireland”.

It said it had received payments of €351,045 and collected penalties of €118,323 in relation to the vehicles challenged in the recent crackdown.

The Revenue’s operation, which was assisted by the Garda, concentrated on the Border areas of Clones, Dundalk and Letterkenny as well as in Cork and Dublin.

The largest amount of seizures were made in Clones where 64 vehicles were impounded. There were 50 seized in Dundalk and 34 in Letterkenny while 35 and 22 were seized in Cork and Dublin respectively.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0420/breaking38.htm

Hartyk87

Wow some starkeling figures there!!!

I know a man that got his his ford mondeo taken from him and was set up ina very sneaky way.

I agree that the vrt is paid but should be done by means of emissions now and not by the worth of the car.

furtzy

Not surprised with the high figure from Clones. Irish regs are in the minority there!....well maybe not anymore Good to see this happening though

Anan1

Hartyk87 wrote: »

I know a man that got his his ford mondeo taken from him and was set up ina very sneaky way.

How did they trick him into not paying the VRT?;)

Sleipnir

Yah, like buying a car up north and not paying VRT on it isn't being sneaky at all!

Stephen

They do base the rate of VRT you pay on the car's emissions now.

Hartyk87

Anan1 wrote: »

How did they trick him into not paying the VRT?;)

No no he bought the ford mondeo up the North and after a onth or so he went to sell it again, he decided to advertis e the car on a site and papers,

he go a phone call an dagreed to meen the caller ina public carpark the man, (well dressed) asked him afew questions like any other buyer and then told him he was impounding the car as it had been in the country with too long with no vrt. the car was put on a lorry threre and then.

he would have to a fine and also the full value of the car to retrieve the car.

irishgrover

Hartyk87 wrote: »

No no he bought the ford mondeo up the North and after a onth or so he went to sell it again, he decided to advertis e the car on a site and papers,

he go a phone call an dagreed to meen the caller ina public carpark the man, (well dressed) asked him afew questions like any other buyer and then told him he was impounding the car as it had been in the country with too long with no vrt. the car was put on a lorry threre and then.

he would have to a fine and also the full value of the car to retrieve the car.

IMHO it's great to see revenue doing some targeted enforcement. Personally I'd consider the target to be completely fair game in this case

Anan1

Hartyk87 wrote: »

No no he bought the ford mondeo up the North and after a onth or so he went to sell it again, he decided to advertis e the car on a site and papers,

he go a phone call an dagreed to meen the caller ina public carpark the man, (well dressed) asked him afew questions like any other buyer and then told him he was impounding the car as it had been in the country with too long with no vrt. the car was put on a lorry threre and then.

he would have to a fine and also the full value of the car to retrieve the car.

That's a great story, i'm delighted to hear the VRO are getting more proactive!

Hartyk87

Hartyk87 wrote: »

No no he bought the ford mondeo up the North and after a onth or so he went to sell it again, he decided to advertis e the car on a site and papers,

he go a phone call an dagreed to meen the caller ina public carpark the man, (well dressed) asked him afew questions like any other buyer and then told him he was impounding the car as it had been in the country with too long with no vrt. the car was put on a lorry threre and then.

he would have to a fine and also the full value of the car to retrieve the car.

Disgraceful imo.

Guy:Incognito

Cristiano Aggressive Leper wrote: »

Disgraceful imo.

I no. He should have paid the VRT on time.

Stekelly

Stekelly wrote: »

I no. He should have paid the VRT on time.

I think you know well I was referring to the customs acting the b****cks.

Guy:Incognito

Paxton Curved Manufacturer wrote: »

I think you know well I was referring to the customs.

I know well what rubbish your post represented.

McSpud

No sympathy for any one who gets caught. If they don't pay their taxes means the rest of us pay more.

Johnboy Mac

Personally I applaud anybody that takes the risk and gets away without paying VRT. After all we are in E.U..

Anan1

Johnboy Mac wrote: »

Personally I applaud anybody that takes the risk and gets away without paying VRT. After all we are in E.U..

I don't follow you? It's not as if we're the only country in the EU with a vehicle registration tax.

Johnboy Mac

Anan1 wrote: »

I don't follow you? It's not as if we're the only country in the EU with a vehicle registration tax.

Your right but or VRT (and VAT & road tax) are excessive would you not say?

Anan1

Johnboy Mac wrote: »

Your right but or VRT (and VAT & road tax) are excessive would you not say?

I'm afraid I wouldn't, particularly not in our current economic climate.:)

alexmcred

I hate these threads when people start bitching and moaning about VRT. It's the law of the land that it has to be paid so tough if you don't like it.

The next time you have TD's calling to your door looking for votes is when to moan on about it, not on some internet forum where no one will listen.

PauloMN

Johnboy Mac wrote: »

Personally I applaud anybody that takes the risk and gets away without paying VRT. After all we are in E.U..

Does that mean you wouldn't applaud the ones that get caught, like it's only the successful cheats that you applaud?

Biro

I've said it before and I'll say it again. VRT's time is up. Time for it to be abolished. Sending hundreds of millions of Euro out of our economy to buy cars abroad is not worth the cost of dealers going out of business and adding to the stresses of social benefit.
No sympathy for the guy getting caught trying to sell the car on Northern plates, he was trying to make a quick buck illegally. Don't really care about people who buy a car to keep and avoid paying it, but guys trading in cars on the QT and not paying it I've no sympathy for.

PauloMN

Biro wrote: »

I've said it before and I'll say it again. VRT's time is up. Time for it to be abolished. Sending hundreds of millions of Euro out of our economy to buy cars abroad is not worth the cost of dealers going out of business and adding to the stresses of social benefit.
No sympathy for the guy getting caught trying to sell the car on Northern plates, he was trying to make a quick buck illegally. Don't really care about people who buy a car to keep and avoid paying it, but guys trading in cars on the QT and not paying it I've no sympathy for.

But every car in Ireland is imported, and every car is liable for VRT. How would abolishing VRT make a difference?

Johnboy Mac

PauloMN wrote: »

Does that mean you wouldn't applaud the ones that get caught, like it's only the successful cheats that you applaud?

What difference does it make to the likes of you or me if some people take the risk and don't get caught? Bottom line is none.

Do you really think the extra money the Revenue will generate makes any difference to the people of this country regarding a minority of vehicles without VRT paid ?

Yes the law is the law and I'm not denying that but we are not taking about murder, sexual abuse, drug dealers, corrupt politicans, etc,etc. I'm talking about an injustice of taxation on the very working man which stems back from pre E.U. days. Remember our Government need to get deogations from E.U. to impose such heavy VRT on cars in this country. I think the deogation says it all really.

PauloMN

Johnboy Mac wrote: »

What difference does it make to the likes of you or me if some people take the risk and don't get caught? Bottom line is none.

Why are they impounding cars then if it makes no difference? You think that people avoiding paying thousands of euro in VRT (plus the road tax they therefore won't pay, and the NCT they won't pay) doesn't make a difference to an ailing economy? People who have paid their VRT etc. are being hit in the pocket further to make up for the shortfall due to others not paying their way.

Scum as far as I'm concerned.

Mr. Presentable

Johnboy Mac wrote: »

What difference does it make to the likes of you or me if some people take the risk and don't get caught? Bottom line is none.

Do you really think the extra money the Revenue will generate makes any difference to the people of this country regarding a minority of vehicles without VRT paid ?

Yes the law is the law and I'm not denying that but we are not taking about murder, sexual abuse, drug dealers, corrupt politicans, etc,etc. I'm talking about an injustice of taxation on the very working man which stems back from pre E.U. days. Remember our Government need to get deogations from E.U. to impose such heavy VRT on cars in this country. I think the deogation says it all really.

You're gonna have to help me out with this one What's a deogation?

Anan1

Johnboy Mac wrote: »

What difference does it make to the likes of you or me if some people take the risk and don't get caught? Bottom line is none.

Do you really think the extra money the Revenue will generate makes any difference to the people of this country regarding a minority of vehicles without VRT paid ?

Of course it makes a difference to us, every euro lost to tax fraud is a euro that has to be replaced through either spending cuts or increased taxation.

Johnboy Mac wrote: »

Yes the law is the law and I'm not denying that but we are not taking about murder, sexual abuse, drug dealers, corrupt politicans, etc,etc. I'm talking about an injustice of taxation on the very working man which stems back from pre E.U. days. Remember our Government need to get deogations from E.U. to impose such heavy VRT on cars in this country. I think the deogation says it all really.

VRT fraud is theft from the Irish people, ie me.

bladespin

I don't agree with VRT but at the moment it's law, tax evasion on the other hand is illegal and always will be, I refuse to support breaking the law.

Johnboy Mac

PauloMN wrote: »

Why are they impounding cars then if it makes no difference? You think that people avoiding paying thousands of euro in VRT (plus the road tax they therefore won't pay, and the NCT they won't pay) doesn't make a difference to an ailing economy? People who have paid their VRT etc. are being hit in the pocket further to make up for the shortfall due to others not paying their way.

Scum as far as I'm concerned.

Customs are only doing their job & rightly so as that's what they are paid for.
No, The extra revenue generated won't make the slightest bit of difference to the economy.
As for people like me, you and 99% of the country are being hit for taxes in their pocket by bad governance of this country, not by a very small minority of VRT non payers. So keep things in prespective. Using word like ''scum'' is harsh and uncalled for when you see the way are politicans and bankers have carried on.

McSpud

McSpud wrote: »

No sympathy for any one who gets caught. If they don't pay their taxes means the rest of us pay more.

I would love to know where that myth comes from. If I pay x euro for car tax you pay y euro for yours, if I dont pay my tax you still pay y euro it dosnt magically go up.

I think there was a perfect example in the budget. The tax on Petrol and drink did not increase in the budget because of people shopping up north. So in other words thanks to some people avoiding excise on drink and petrol by shopping in the north everybody else was saved from an increase.

Zube

Cristiano Aggressive Leper wrote: »

Disgraceful imo.

I agree. Collecting overdue VRT plus a small fine just encourages the dodgers to try again. From the original article, they collected just one-third of the outstanding VRT in extra penalties, not nearly enough to act as a deterrent.

They should simply crush the car, preferably in front of the tax-dodger. Squish their car into a cube, let them walk home, and they won't try it again. Less enforcement effort needed, no more dodging.

gillo_100

Johnboy Mac wrote: »

What difference does it make to the likes of you or me if some people take the risk and don't get caught? Bottom line is none.

From the forst post: Some 276 vehicles were seized for non-payment of VRT. The VRT at risk, in these cases, amounted to €1.4 million, the Revenue said.

What difference?, 1.4 million and this is the small % that were caught. Fair enough when we are talking about billions 1.4 million may not seem like a lot. But the old saying count the pennys and the pounds will look after themselves still applies here just on a larger scale.

And it is more to do with the attitude, people who avoid paying taxes aren't getting one over on the government they are getting one over on society. Taking money from family and neighbours is all they are doing. It is partially due to this attitude we're in the mess we are now.

Fair enough VRT is a lot and I fully agree it should be reduced, but what are you achieving by not paying VRT, is it some sort of silent protest. The law is there plain and simple the money has to be paid.

Johnboy Mac

nipplenuts wrote: »

You're gonna have to help me out with this one What's a deogation?

I'll try and explain this as best I can.

In EU terms a derogation allows a member state to delay implementation of a EU regulation. In Ireland's case the Government is given a special detrogation to tax the importation of cars out of line with the other EU member states, thus our heavy VRT charges.

BlackWizard

Zube wrote: »

They should simply crush the car, preferably in front of the tax-dodger. Squish their car into a cube, let them walk home, and they won't try it again. Less enforcement effort needed, no more dodging.

Or just keep the cars and put them into service. Why doesn't this happen? Do they actually crush the cars?

As someone said the VRT is the law, its a rule we ALL have to follow. If you disagree with it then you can find some way of building up support against it through lobby groups or however else. But evading tax is no way to protest.

It's the same as disagreeing with the minimum wage, you don't stop taking that in protest or start taking from someone else's wages to make yours bigger. You join a union and get them to keep pushing it up.

edit: Yup, got confused there. ^^ Original post.

Guy:Incognito

Johnboy Mac wrote: »

I'll try and explain this as best I can.

In EU terms a derogation allows a member state to delay implementation of a EU regulation. In Ireland's case the Government is given a special detrogation to tax the importation of cars out of line with the other EU member states, thus our heavy VRT charges.

They are ot taxing the importation of cars though. That was scrapped 20 years ago. They are taxing the registration of the cars (which all EU countries iirc charge, just to varying degrees). Theres a difference.

Johnboy Mac

gillo_100 wrote: »

From the forst post: Some 276 vehicles were seized for non-payment of VRT. The VRT at risk, in these cases, amounted to €1.4 million, the Revenue said.

What difference?, 1.4 million and this is the small % that were caught. Fair enough when we are talking about billions 1.4 million may not seem like a lot. But the old saying count the pennys and the pounds will look after themselves still applies here just on a larger scale.

And it is more to do with the attitude, people who avoid paying taxes aren't getting one over on the government they are getting one over on society. Taking money from family and neighbours is all they are doing. It is partially due to this attitude we're in the mess we are now.

Fair enough VRT is a lot and I fully agree it should be reduced, but what are you achieving by not paying VRT, is it some sort of silent protest. The law is there plain and simple the money has to be paid.

Fair enough.
If everybody paid their fair share of taxes including VRT we as a whole would be taxed less, I presume that's the point you are making? But this is not the case, this is a very unjust country when it comes to taxation. Thus encouraging people not to pay VRT.

But the only hole in your point is the Government does not look after the pennies thus not allowing the pounds don't look after themselfs.

Zube

Johnboy Mac wrote: »

In EU terms a derogation allows a member state to delay implementation of a EU regulation. In Ireland's case the Government is given a special detrogation to tax the importation of cars out of line with the other EU member states, thus our heavy VRT charges.

Eh, no. The import tax was changed to a Vehicle Registration Tax years ago, and isn't covered by any derogation.

Johnboy Mac

Stekelly wrote: »

They are ot taxing the importation of cars though. That was scrapped 20 years ago. They are taxing the registration of the cars (which all EU countries iirc charge, just to varying degrees). Theres a difference.

Ok, I tried to explain it the best I could. Splitting hairs?

So why do the Irish Government get a derogation on VRT?

jhegarty

gillo_100 wrote: »

What difference?, 1.4 million and this is the small % that were caught. Fair enough when we are talking about billions 1.4 million may not seem like a lot. But the old saying count the pennys and the pounds will look after themselves still applies here just on a larger scale.

I pay far less than €1.4 million on income tax. Everyone ok if I just don't pay this year ?

Johnboy Mac

Zube wrote: »

Eh, no. The import tax was changed to a Vehicle Registration Tax years ago, and isn't covered by any derogation.

To my knowledge there is a derogation...........................simply because the EU wants harmony in the movement of goods and services between member states.

PauloMN

Johnboy Mac wrote: »

But the only hole in your point is the Government does not look after the pennies thus not allowing the pounds don't look after themselfs.

Nobody is questioning your belief that the Government have made a holy f**k-up of things in the past. I agree with you on that point.

However, using that as some sort of excuse to dodge paying a tax that you (not specifically you, I mean everyone) are legally required to pay is pathetic imo.

As I said above, this goes beyond simple VRT. People who don't register their cars where when they should are also avoiding Irish road tax. They are also avoiding the NCT. Their insurance cover is also questionable, a claim might have to come out of the MIBI fund (i.e. out of all our pockets). Why should I not be pissed off about that when I've gone to the trouble and expense of keeping everything up to date on my cars?

Drummerboy08

Sure you might as well just steal the car, and knock someone over on the way back if your not going to pay VRT. Not paying VRT is as illegal as both of the above actions.

The law is the law, whether you agree with it, or like it.

L1011

Johnboy Mac wrote: »

To my knowledge there is a derogation...........................simply because the EU wants harmony in the movement of goods and services between member states.

There isn't, and VRT is far from unique in Europe. You're free to get a car from any member state, but all have VRT to pay.

smash

PauloMN wrote: »

But every car in Ireland is imported, and every car is liable for VRT. How would abolishing VRT make a difference?

Very simple really... If road tax and VRT was abolished and put on the pump it would drop the value of cars dramatically, boosting the motor industry. It wouldn't need the be a huge amount on the price of petrol either, this would also mean the closure of VRO's and tax offices which would save a lot of money for the government.

and before anyone says it, I know the value of your car would drop through the floor, but it's a hit that everyone would need to take in order to make things right for the future.

Don't forget we have VRT, massive motor tax (not road tax anymore - so this money doesn't even go to the upkeep of our road network) and in the next budget there's going to be a CO2 tax announced.... bloody scam!

Johnboy Mac

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Sure you might as well just steal the car, and knock someone over on the way back if your not going to pay VRT. Not paying VRT is as illegal as both of the above actions.

The law is the law, whether you agree with it, or like it.

I don't see the connection with stealing or knocking somebody over and not paying taxes.

lifer_sean

Johnboy Mac wrote: »

I don't see the connection with stealing or knocking somebody over and not paying taxes.

That's the whole point, isn't it ???

Many people on here see the connection, some don't, hence the debate.

Personally I'm glad to see the VRO officials ringing up the sellers of cars in the small adverts who are selling cars without VRT. I've been wishing they would do this for years. Thses sellers are trading on the black economy without paying the VRT, and totally ignoring the legitimate means of selling imported cars (TAN number system). They are also avoiding their VAT obligations (difference between UK 15% and Irish 21.5%), and one would have to query their income tax status as well. It's not just VRT at stake here.

Take this to the extreme ... if everyone avoided paying their taxes, then there would be no hospitals, roads, schools, etc. It would be back to the 80's where the "taxes are for little people" attitude prevailed.

This thread should be more at home in the political forum than the motoring forum !

Johnboy Mac

MYOB wrote: »

There isn't, and VRT is far from unique in Europe. You're free to get a car from any member state, but all have VRT to pay.

Zube wrote: »

Eh, no. The import tax was changed to a Vehicle Registration Tax years ago, and isn't covered by any derogation.

Well to be specific VRT actually defies Artical 25 of the Treaty of Rome. Also in 2002 the European Commission asked the Irish Government to remove VRT as it's a form of double taxation within the EU.

And the only reason our high rate of VRT still exists to this day is due to the Government getting a derogation from the EU.


Edit: I still could be incorrect, if so does anybody have any specific knowledge on this subject?

PauloMN

steve06 wrote: »

Very simple really... If road tax and VRT was abolished and put on the pump it would drop the value of cars dramatically, boosting the motor industry. It wouldn't need the be a huge amount on the price of petrol either, this would also mean the closure of VRO's and tax offices which would save a lot of money for the government.

and before anyone says it, I know the value of your car would drop through the floor, but it's a hit that everyone would need to take in order to make things right for the future.

Don't forget we have VRT, massive motor tax (not road tax anymore - so this money doesn't even go to the upkeep of our road network) and in the next budget there's going to be a CO2 tax announced.... bloody scam!

I disagree. Abolishing VRT would make UK imports even more attractive, the Irish motor trade would be hit even worse. Some cars are not worth importing because of the VRT (based on silly VRO OMSP figures), so removing that would mean pretty much every car would be cheaper in the UK. Our dying trade would be well and truly dead.

I agree about putting road tax on petrol though. I do maybe 7000 miles a year and pay the same road tax as someone doing 30000 miles a year. In fact I pay maybe twice as much as someone with a flash new '08/'09 diesel doing 30000 miles a year who pollutes more. That's crazy and is hardly encouraging me to use public transport. Our supposed "green" policies are the exact opposite of that from what I can see. But that's a discussion for a different day/thread.

Anan1

Johnboy Mac wrote: »

I don't see the connection with stealing or knocking somebody over and not paying taxes.

Stealing and not paying taxes are the same thing. Knocking someone over is different - that's not necessarily deliberate.;)

Zube

Johnboy Mac wrote: »

To my knowledge there is a derogation...........................simply because the EU wants harmony in the movement of goods and services between member states.

Your knowledge is years out of date. VRT has been in existence since 1993, and was never the subject of any EU derogation.

smash

PauloMN wrote: »

so removing that would mean pretty much every car would be cheaper in the UK. Our dying trade would be well and truly dead.

No, it would mean we'd be competitive as the only difference in price would be the VAT and if sterling picks up again, then there'd be basically no difference.

PauloMN wrote: »

In fact I pay maybe twice as much as someone with a flash new '08/'09 diesel doing 30000 miles a year

I pay almost 10x what they pay in tax, and I do about 4/5k a year.

ardmacha

It wouldn't need the be a huge amount on the price of petrol either, this would also mean the closure of VRO's and tax offices which would save a lot of money for the government.

There would still have to registration system for cars to establish ownership, the saving in administration would be minimal.

I don't see the connection with stealing or knocking somebody over and not paying taxes.

The justice system is funded from taxes as is the health service, if you are avoiding taxes then you are depriving these services and others of money so there will be more crime and the victims of crime will not receive the services they need. This is a democracy, if you wish to change the structure of tax then use your vote.