Will Ian Dowling ever make the Irish side?

LumpyChicken

He has been playing pretty well for Munster and I was just wondering whether you think he will ever make it to the national side now that Bowe and Fitzgerald seem to have their places cemented.

Chucky the tree

Hopefully not.

LumpyChicken

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Hopefully not.

Lol.

[Jackass]

Why would he?

He's a decent player, nothing else.

The likes of Luke Fitzgerald, Johne Murphy, Tommy Bowe, Keith Earls, Rob Kearney, Geordan Murphy - even maybe Shane Horgan & Trimble would probably be ahead of him to name but a few.

LumpyChicken

[Jackass] wrote: »

Why would he?

He's a decent player, nothing else.

The likes of Luke Fitzgerald, Johne Murphy, Tommy Bowe, Keith Earls, Rob Kearney, Geordan Murphy - even maybe Shane Horgan & Trimble would probably be ahead of him to name but a few.

Tbh I think Earls will end up replacing D'Arcy or O' Driscoll.

[Jackass]

You could be right there, but I wouldn't say that would be for a while.

The problem is that Earls would struggle to get into the Irish team - he's not as good a full back as Kearney, he's not as good on the wing as Bowe or Fitzgerald and he's not as good in the centre as O'Driscoll or D'Arcy.

I'd say O'Driscoll may eventually move to 12 in a season or two, which may open the door for Earls at 13.

There's a lot of competition in that backline though, which is why Dowling wouldn't have a hope of getting in there.

marco_polo

I don't think so. He is a good player with alot of admirable qualities, and a very good servant at club level for us.

But he does lack the extra class and pace required to make the step up to international level.

thehighground

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Hopefully not.

Is that just blind prejudice or can you offer any reasoned debate?

Podge_irl

Rather annoyingly for Dowling, his best chance of getting a cap would be this summer, but he's probably going to be involved in the HEC final (:( ) so that rules him out. He's a decent wing, but nothing more. He wouldnt let Ireland down, but there are a number of players who are better than him. He fills a role at Munster but at international level you simply need that bit more from your wingers.

Tomtom364

[Jackass] wrote: »

Why would he?

He's a decent player, nothing else.

The likes of Luke Fitzgerald, Johne Murphy, Tommy Bowe, Keith Earls, Rob Kearney, Geordan Murphy - even maybe Shane Horgan & Trimble would probably be ahead of him to name but a few.

Nah, he is well ahead of shaggy and trimble.

And johne murphy?!?!? Who?!?!?

thehighground

[Jackass] wrote: »

You could be right there, but I wouldn't say that would be for a while.

The problem is that Earls would struggle to get into the Irish team - he's not as good a full back as Kearney, he's not as good on the wing as Bowe or Fitzgerald and he's not as good in the centre as O'Driscoll or D'Arcy.

I'd say O'Driscoll may eventually move to 12 in a season or two, which may open the door for Earls at 13.

There's a lot of competition in that backline though, which is why Dowling wouldn't have a hope of getting in there.

Don't know if you noticed, but Earls played 12 last night against Connacht (for the first time).

BOD is very injury prone now - last season we were really stuck for good backup. Kearney is actually experiencing a bit of a dip in form recently and he actually needs competition & backup as well as Geordan & Girv are getting on a bit.

As for Dowling - do you really want to get back to the EOS days of no back-up and no-competition again. Dowling is a very good competitor and would never let us down.

marco_polo

thehighground wrote: »

Don't know if you noticed, but Earls played 12 last night against Connacht (for the first time).

BOD is very injury prone now - last season we were really stuck for good backup. Kearney is actually experiencing a bit of a dip in form recently and he actually needs competition & backup as well as Geordan & Girv are getting on a bit.

As for Dowling - do you really want to get back to the EOS days of no back-up and no-competition again. Dowling is a very good competitor and would never let us down.

I know he would not let the side down if selected, but assuming that the best 22 are fit and available for Ireland, you would have to conceed that it is very unlikely he would be involved.

thehighground

marco_polo wrote: »

I know he would not let the side down if selected, but assuming that the best 22 are fit and available for Ireland, you would have to conceed that it is very unlikely he would be involved.

If they were all fit and in form, yes. But if not, no. But I don't ever want to see no strength in depth again like what EOS did. That means, Dowling needs to be blooded in an international and probably will be during the summer.

Morf

He's not got the pace to be a top-level winger.

Chucky the tree

thehighground wrote: »

Is that just blind prejudice or can you offer any reasoned debate?

He's not good enough to make that step up to the next level which is pretty obvious to most people I think. He's be an excellent club player but for him to get a place in the Irish team there needs to be alot of injuries. I'm happy for him to get his caps in the AI against the likes of Canada etc.

joconnell

You can see quite a bit now that since munster have started playing like a more rounded team that dowling is less and less involved - on the weekend it was howlett, earls and warwick getting on the end of everything. You're right in the sense that he'll always try his hardest and has no problem power or defence wise but the few times the ball went out to his wing he was chased down. With Jean devilliers coming in to replace tipoki in the centre I'd say dowling loses out - warwick is your best full back and earls is too good and too fast on the attack to leave out so earls to the wing, mafi and jdv in the centre, howlett rog and warwick the rest.

sickpuppy

In the connacht match on friday night he was chased down by cronin a hooker who is fast but still.
No way any wannabe international wing should be caught by a front row
whatthread involving a munster player next ?
Anthony Horgan for ireland or some other bs

twinytwo

[Jackass] wrote: »

You could be right there, but I wouldn't say that would be for a while.

The problem is that Earls would struggle to get into the Irish team - he's not as good a full back as Kearney, he's not as good on the wing as Bowe or Fitzgerald and he's not as good in the centre as O'Driscoll or D'Arcy.

I'd say O'Driscoll may eventually move to 12 in a season or two, which may open the door for Earls at 13.

There's a lot of competition in that backline though, which is why Dowling wouldn't have a hope of getting in there.

In fairness to Earls its asking alot to fill O'Driscolls boots hell will prob frezze over before we get another like him.

twinytwo

joconnell wrote: »

You can see quite a bit now that since munster have started playing like a more rounded team that dowling is less and less involved - on the weekend it was howlett, earls and warwick getting on the end of everything. You're right in the sense that he'll always try his hardest and has no problem power or defence wise but the few times the ball went out to his wing he was chased down. With Jean devilliers coming in to replace tipoki in the centre I'd say dowling loses out - warwick is your best full back and earls is too good and too fast on the attack to leave out so earls to the wing, mafi and jdv in the centre, howlett rog and warwick the rest.

why not just let earls play 13. Drico wont be around forever

buck65

Dowling is a good Munster player, always gives 100%, strong in the tackle, a little headless at times. Probably hasn't the pace to be an international wing but could do a job if needed. Tomas O Leary was another that was predicted for Irish SH and was generally derided on this forum too so I wouldn't be too bothered by the expert analyses of some here - the hopefully not comments etc.

Amazotheamazing

Dowling is at the same level as guys like Ian Humphs, Jennings, Cullen, B. Murphy, Jackman. Good enough to get a few caps but he'll never be an Ireland regular.

thehighground

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Dowling is at the same level as guys like Ian Humphs, Jennings, Cullen, B. Murphy, Jackman. Good enough to get a few caps but he'll never be an Ireland regular.

Ian Humphs & Jennings are no where near Dowling's level, whatever about the other two, Dowling never goes missing.

dingbat

Dowling simply doesn't have the pace to be an international winger. End of.

anonymous_joe

Morf wrote: »

He's not got the pace to be a top-level winger.

One of the slowest rugby league players I've ever seen. :pac:

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

One of the slowest rugby league players I've ever seen. :pac:

Funny that you say that as Dowling actually kept his place ahead of a world class rugby league player (and associated finishing and pace) after the arrival of Doug Howlett at Munster.

thehighground

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Dowling is at the same level as guys like Ian Humphs, Jennings, Cullen, B. Murphy, Jackman. Good enough to get a few caps but he'll never be an Ireland regular.

Missed the B Murphy (thought you were referring to Geordan). Are you aware that Barry Murphy is the only player to score a try against the ABs in the Northern Hemisphere on their recent GS tour?

anonymous_joe

thehighground wrote: »

Ian Humphs & Jennings are no where near Dowling's level, whatever about the other two, Dowling never goes missing.

Shane Jennings? He's actually a good player. Does wonders at the breakdown. Did a lot of damage to Munster at the breakdown recently, but the backs couldn't do anything with the ball he and the pack were winning.

He gets a fúck load of abuse here, but he's a good solid player, same as Leo Cullen, who also happened to play for Leicester, one of the strongest ever club teams.

thehighground wrote: »

Funny that you say that as Dowling actually kept his place ahead of a world class rugby league player (and associated finishing and pace) after the arrival of Doug Howlett at Munster.

Well come on, you know I'm not entirely serious - but for fúck's sake, lads, it's Ian Dowling. He gives his all, grand, so would any of us if we got to play for Ireland. Playing for Munster does not make you a better player than if you were at any other club. I know there's all this wonderful stuff about playing for the red, and stepping up, but I don't care, international rugby is a higher standard. Wing's need to be one thing, and one thing only - fast. Good under the high ball, defensively strong, powerful, tehy're all important, but none are as important as speed. Ian Dowling will never be more than a club/provincial player because he's a slow wing.

Carney was a huge disappointment in my mind, I expected wonders from him tbh. No idea what went wrong.

Amazotheamazing

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Shane Jennings? He's actually a good player. Does wonders at the breakdown. Did a lot of damage to Munster at the breakdown recently, but the backs couldn't do anything with the ball he and the pack were winning.

He gets a fúck load of abuse here, but he's a good solid player, same as Leo Cullen, who also happened to play for Leicester, one of the strongest ever club teams.

.

And Dowling's a good club level winger.

Btw, If we're picking wings on pace, what's Fitz doing there?

Amazotheamazing

thehighground wrote: »

Missed the B Murphy (thought you were referring to Geordan). Are you aware that Barry Murphy is the only player to score a try against the ABs in the Northern Hemisphere on their recent GS tour?

Yes, but he's not the same type of talent as BOD, or Fitz or Earls. He's good for a few caps, and he won't let Ireland down, but he's not a very top level player.

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

And Dowling's a good club level winger.

Btw, If we're picking wings on pace, what's Fitz doing there?

He's fairly fast actually, and he's also a full back - we tended to play with two full backs and one winger for the 6 Nations.

Amazotheamazing

anonymous_joe wrote: »

He's fairly fast actually, and he's also a full back - we tended to play with two full backs and one winger for the 6 Nations.

What makes you think it was Fitz being used as an extra fullback, and not Bowe? both have equal claims to the title.

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

What makes you think it was Fitz being used as an extra fullback, and not Bowe? both have equal claims to the title.

Nothing really, think it depended what flank was being attacked/used to attack.

But Fitz has made clear on occassion that he feels he's a full back, but he'll happily play anywhere.

Amazotheamazing

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Nothing really, think it depended what flank was being attacked/used to attack.

But Fitz has made clear on occassion that he feels he's a full back, but he'll happily play anywhere.

I think he's a better bet long term for fullback too, but he'll have to move to get games there.

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I think he's a better bet long term for fullback too, but he'll have to move to get games there.

Not sure he'd move tbh. He's guarenteed the wing for Leinster for the next decade or so. I just wish Kearney was a better wing tbh, so we could sign Geordan Murphy, and finally see him in a Leinster jersey.

DonkeyPokerTour

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Wing's need to be one thing, and one thing only - fast. Good under the high ball, defensively strong, powerful, tehy're all important, but none are as important as speed.

Hence why everyone has been trying to get Usain Bolt to play rugby! If pace was the only thing needed then there are without doubt hundreds of faster people in Ireland than either Bowe or Fitzgerald. Think about what your saying!

As for will Dowling ever play for Ireland, I personally think he will, given every Irish player was fully fit and well then I agree no he wouldn't make the team or the 22. but EVERYONE wont be fit all the time and probably for one of the smaller matches he will play some part. At the end of the day the question is "Will Ian Dowling ever make the Irish Side?" its not "Will Ian Dowing be a constant presence in the Irish Side" or anything like that. I'm sure at some stage or another he will make an appearence.

anonymous_joe

DonkeyPokerTour wrote: »

Hence why everyone has been trying to get Usain Bolt to play rugby! If pace was the only thing needed then there are without doubt hundreds of faster people in Ireland than either Bowe or Fitzgerald. Think about what your saying!

As for will Dowling ever play for Ireland, I personally think he will, given every Irish player was fully fit and well then I agree no he wouldn't make the team or the 22. but EVERYONE wont be fit all the time and probably for one of the smaller matches he will play some part. At the end of the day the question is "Will Ian Dowling ever make the Irish Side?" its not "Will Ian Dowing be a constant presence in the Irish Side" or anything like that. I'm sure at some stage or another he will make an appearence.

Well I'm exaggerating, I tend to, but think about it - we talk about defense, we talk about their kicking, their handling of the high ball, etc, but we all forget, wings are there to run very fast and score tries.

It's so obvious we mostly look past it.

Ian Dowling has almost everything a certain type of winger needs, but he's not fast enough to score a barrel load of tries.

Amazotheamazing

I really don't think Fitz is anywhere near as fast as you seem to think he is Joe. He's no slouch, but there's no real pace in the Irish back three at the minute, imo. Guys like Maxwell would be considerably faster than him, but that's all they have, they've no skills to go with it. Same with Varndell in England, he's fast enough to make the British Olympic squad apparently, but still not much of a top level rugby player.

chupacabra

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I really don't think Fitz is anywhere near as fast as you seem to think he is Joe. He's no slouch, but there's no real pace in the Irish back three at the minute, imo. Guys like Maxwell would be considerably faster than him, but that's all they have, they've no skills to go with it. Same with Varndell in England, he's fast enough to make the British Olympic squad apparently, but still not much of a top level rugby player.

True that, we havent anyone with the pace Hickey had. However we have a certain brother of a certain irish full back coming through the ranks at the moment who i've seen in action and christ he has some quick feet. Looking forward to the day the Kearny brothers take the field together

damselnat

chupacabra wrote: »

True that, we havent anyone with the pace Hickey had. However we have a certain brother of a certain irish full back coming through the ranks at the moment who i've seen in action and christ he has some quick feet. Looking forward to the day the Kearny brothers take the field together

Seen him in several of the under20s matches, impressed. Roll on that day I say!:D

barnesd

thehighground wrote: »

Missed the B Are you aware that Barry Murphy is the only player to score a try against the ABs in the Northern Hemisphere on their recent GS tour?

Was it anything close to a good AB side? No. Was it a good individual try? No. Does the above statement mean anything at all relevant? No.

As for Dowling, there are just better options. He has no cutting edge what-so-ever.

thehighground

barnesd wrote: »

Was it anything close to a good AB side? No. Was it a good individual try? No. Does the above statement mean anything at all relevant? No.

What are you on about - rugby is a team sport. He still managed something that no other player in the NH managed to do this year - and that is get across the AB's try line.

By the way, did you actually see the game?

As for Dowling, there are just better options. He has no cutting edge what-so-ever.

I can think of a couple of teams with supposedly cutting edge players and none of them are scoring any tries.

barnesd

thehighground wrote: »

What are you on about - rugby is a team sport. He still managed something that no other player in the NH managed to do this year - and that is get across the AB's try line.

So what? What exactly is the point here?

I can think of a couple of teams with supposedly cutting edge players and none of them are scoring any tries.

Fitz and BOD each have nearly as many tries this season as Dowling has in his career.

anonymous_joe

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I really don't think Fitz is anywhere near as fast as you seem to think he is Joe. He's no slouch, but there's no real pace in the Irish back three at the minute, imo. Guys like Maxwell would be considerably faster than him, but that's all they have, they've no skills to go with it. Same with Varndell in England, he's fast enough to make the British Olympic squad apparently, but still not much of a top level rugby player.

Ah he's probably not.

We've never had many fast players historically. At least not in terms of accelleration, rangy guys like Bowe, etc are more our forté.

barnesd

Varndell at one stage had to make a choice between track and rugby, he could have gone either way. There is definitely more to a good winger than out-and-out speed, though obviously it's a very good asset for a winger to have.

anonymous_joe

barnesd wrote: »

Varndell at one stage had to make a choice between track and rugby, he could have gone either way. There is definitely more to a good winger than out-and-out speed, though obviously it's a very good asset for a winger to have.

There is of course, but it's probably what matters most for them.

RichTea

He's a bloody good player. Had 2 fantastic seasons for Munster where he has been close to our best back!

It's just a shame from his perspective that at the moment we have very talented and productive wingers like Tommy Bowe, Fitzgerald, Kearney ahead of him right now.

Barring injuries to a couple of them, he mightn't figure often or at all. Declan Kidney knows him well from his time at Munster, he'll use him when he sees the need should it arrive.

stephen_n

I would imagine at this stage that the boat has sailed for Dowling, there are younger players coming through with alot more pace and alot more to offer that will probably get blooded ahead of him at this stage. We aren't really suffering a shortage in wings at this stage so can't see him being called up for a competitive match and since Kidney will hopefully use the smaller fixtures to blood younger players I'd say it's too late for Dowling!

RichTea

stephen_n wrote: »

I would imagine at this stage that the boat has sailed for Dowling, there are younger players coming through with alot more pace and alot more to offer that will probably get blooded ahead of him at this stage. We aren't really suffering a shortage in wings at this stage so can't see him being called up for a competitive match and since Kidney will hopefully use the smaller fixtures to blood younger players I'd say it's too late for Dowling!

Why does everyone consider pace to be the only requisite for wing play? What good is it if you can't defend, can't hold on to the ball or pick a good running lane? Dowling is a naturally intelligent player and his defence and work rate are palpable at every game.

John_C

He's about 5th in line for the Ireland 22 shirt. That's not a criticism, you need to be very good to play to that level but there would need to be a lot of injuries for him to make a test 15 in a serious game.

anonymous_joe

RichTea wrote: »

Why does everyone consider pace to be the only requisite for wing play? What good is it if you can't defend, can't hold on to the ball or pick a good running lane? Dowling is a naturally intelligent player and his defence and work rate are palpable at every game.

Because at the top end of the game there's a minimum requirement basically.

A wing needs to be able to defend, field kicks, and kick these days. I.e, be an auxiliary full back, but they also need the speed to take advantage of gaps and to create them.

Speed falls under two categories obviously, acceleration and actual speed - take O'Driscoll - not very fast, but has good acceleration, which allows him find and use gaps.

With a wing like, say, Caucau, speed allows them to go outside players and score tries that otherwise wouldn't be there. Given that defence is at its weakest on the wings, that's where you can launch the most dangerous attacks. A guy like Dowling is good at everything a winger needs to do, but he's not really that fast (for a winger) and so he ends up unable to take advantage of the gaps etc. Earls, Warwick, Mafi and Howlett are all faster than him. In all honesty, only one of them is a winger (and he's old) and none of them should be faster than your winger. That's part of the problem with Dowling.

stephen_n

RichTea wrote: »

Why does everyone consider pace to be the only requisite for wing play? What good is it if you can't defend, can't hold on to the ball or pick a good running lane? Dowling is a naturally intelligent player and his defence and work rate are palpable at every game.

Don't think anyone said pace is the only requisite but it is a pre-requisite for a wing and where as you might get away with it at club level you won't at international level where the difference between scoring and not scoring comes down to mili-seconds . It's a bit like saying that a good pass is the only requisite for a scrum half mind you if I carry that argument to it's logical conclusion (TOL) then maybe Dowling has a chance lol