22 pistols

Hibrion

Although it will be a while until I'm in a position to own a pistol, its never to early to start researching. With the wealth of experience floating around here I wondered had anyone any opinions/advice on 22 pistols?

Given the upcoming changes they are likely to be the only pistol left around:(

So far I've narrowed it down to two, the Beretta 87 T, and the Browning buck mark, the contour model to be more exact.

Just putting it out there to see what you guys have to say on the matter.

Thanks.

Ned Muldhoon

Hibron,

There are a lot of crap .22's and some fairly decent ones, steer clear of the mosquitos etc. If you can get a Buckmark / 22A / Beretta 87 or Hammerli that's in the country I'd go for that.

Ned

bunny shooter

Any of the Rugers are good too

If you can get a licence of course

Ned Muldhoon

Quite correct Bunny, Ruger .22 pistols are hard to beat, but imports for them are a bit tricky (when you could get an import cert).

Fired one of those new Walther olympic type pistols yesterday - very, very accurate and an excellent piece of kit, but cost a fortune (relative to most .22's on the Irish market), and from Mr. Ahearns' stance on pistols that's probably what we'll end up buying, Fair whack of VAT on that one! maybe , if we all agree to buy pistols in excess of 2 or 3K of any calibre and levy 200% vat on ammo he'll leave us alone, after all, someone has to pay for the pension increments for 72 semi retired TD's and trade missions to the US that result in US corporates deciding to relocate due to dodgy statements on corporation tax, not to mention the rescue of the poor banks whoes actions attributed in no small way to the current sh*t3 state of economic affairs.

Enough of my demented ramblings. Go an buy a decent .22 - any dealer / club will point you in the right direction and have some fun while you can.
My apologies for diverting from the question at hand.

Ned

Hibrion

Its a bit of a mess at the moment alright.

I will be waiting until we know exactly what we can keep; no point in splashing out on a pistol to hand it in with a thousand rounds through it.:rolleyes:

I've heard rugers can be a pain to disassemble and clean, any truth in that?

Basically all I want is some thing that will fire whatever I put in it (and if it doesn't look like a space ship that would help too:D) as you say there are a lot of crap 22s out there.

I'm leaning more towards the buckmark at the moment, I really havn't heard a bad word said about them, but just for comparison any idea how much one could expect to pay for a beretta 87T

bunny shooter

Hibrion wrote: »

.........I've heard rugers can be a pain to disassemble and clean, any truth in that?

yes this is true I had a mark 3 in 22lr and I fired over 2,000 rounds and never cleaned it and it never jammed/misfired even once. made a bad mistake and sold it

Sparks

if it doesn't look like a space ship that would help too:D)

Hey, don't knock the funny-looking stuff too much



I mean, some of it is so ugly as to be beautiful!

rrpc

I know you're looking for a .22, but this is a piece of advice I should have taken myself and have met many people who agree (in hindsight of course )

Think about getting an air pistol instead.

Why? Well, they're much cheaper to run, you don't need much in terms of a range to use one and pretty much everything is the same except the noise and the recoil.

It's a very cheap way to learn to shoot pistol accurately and in these recessionary times, that's a big plus.

Sparks

And if you're going to get an air pistol, don't start with a grand-and-a-half Feinwerkbau or Steyr; get an Izh-46. Cheap (€250 or so new), cheerful (well, it makes me smile at least) and will outshoot any shooter currently in Ireland if you're good enough (highest score shot with an Izzy in international competition is currently 591/600 from a few years back - the current world record, just set last week in changwon, is 594).

Hibrion

Really hadn't considered an air pistol, just looked at the 22s so far. It would be a reluctant substitution but it is worth some consideration though thanks; its not like I was looking at a 9mm so there shouldn't really much difference I suppose. I don't know anything about them though

chem

Sparks wrote: »

And if you're going to get an air pistol, don't start with a grand-and-a-half Feinwerkbau or Steyr;.

thats an expensive toy for the kids:eek::P

Sparks

Well, you can tell the difference to be honest chem - with the FWB or the Steyr the trigger's smoother, you don't have to crank the handle to charge for every shot, it doesn't look like an engine part from a russian tractor, it doesn't come attached to a tree stump that you learn to whittle on, and bits don't fall off every twenty or thirty shots.

But then, even I can do this with an Izzy, so you don't always get what you pay for...


And the skills do transfer over to .22 and even up to the higher calibres, by the way, this is from shooting the CZ85 out in the midlands a few weeks back:


And I'm not all that good with pistol, don't forget - guys like bigred and some of the ISSF lads from Fermoy kick my ass regularly.

rrpc

Gotta disagree with Sparks on one thing, and that's the cost of an air pistol.

Granted they're not all as cheap as the IZH46, but then again, they don't look and feel like a tractor part either

Gehmann make a cheapish one, as well as Aeron CZ, Rohm and Benelli.

These range in price from about €450 up to about €750. There are lots more up to the grand mark and there's actually very few that would cost you €1500.

But definitely have a serious think about this, because you will learn 80% to 90% of your skills using one of these and won't break the bank.

Hibrion

I'm kind of thinking now it might be a good idea to try an air pistol but then there's always the argument that I'm eventually gonna want a .22 pistol so why not start out with one?
At 25 quid for 500 hundred rounds for the cheapies will an air pistol really be all that cheaper in the long run?
That's why I think if I go for the .22 it should be something that will feed any kind of ammo; I don't want to be stuck buying cci's forever and cleaning after every fifty shots:rolleyes:

Sparks

there's always the argument that I'm eventually gonna want a .22 pistol so why not start out with one?

Because other stuff clouds the fundamentals with cartridge pistols (like recoil - if you construct your stance and position and grip to handle recoil, you can - not always, but it can happen - wind up with a setup that doesn't let you consistently hit the middle of the target).

Plus, the only way to convince your brain to trust an area hold instead of aiming is to do it. A lot. Which isn't horribly expensive with .22lr ammunition, but is enormously cheaper with air pellets (see below).

Plus, with the cheaper single-shot pneumatic air pistols like the Izzy, they're slow. You can't shoot lots of shots one after the other rapidly with the Izzy. Which is a Very Good Thing when you're learning because it prevents you just blasting away and you tend to focus on what you're doing more.

25 euro for 500 cheap .22 rounds, yes - but for decent .22 rounds you're looking at closer to 60 euro for 500 and that's not top-end, that's Eley Team or the equivalent (top end, you could be looking at 80 or so, depends on the dealer and the price). Top-end, pistol-specific air pellets, at the most, you're looking at 10 euro for 500. And you're more likely to get them for less (again, depends on dealer). So anywhere from 6 to 10 times cheaper.

And you don't really want a pistol that will feed with anything - you want a pistol that will put the rounds where you want them. Diet ambivalence is just a nice feature You just find the round your pistol likes (that's a week or two at the start of the decade you'll shoot the pistol for) and stick with it; and clean it regularly (the workings if not the barrel). So it's really a small thing, not worth choosing a pistol by.

BTW, there are cheap good .22 pistols. Things like the Hammerli X-esse have performed well in matches here, and RRPC could tell you about the Izzy .22 pistol, which isn't bad for the price. You don't need to start with a FWB AW-93, though they are truly sweet.

(And also - you may find air pistol is more fun than you think it is now... I mean, I get a kick out of .22lr pistol or 9mm pistol, but I won't be buying one any time soon, I'm more likely to keep shooting with my Izzy until all the pellets go in the black during a match at least. And probably for longer after that...)

like to hunt

i have tryrd alot of pistols.. makes and cal
the best hand fit and shooter was a hammerlie. xe. for me it bet them all
:cool:

Sparks

Good a recommendation as that is LTH, someone buying their own should really try as many pistols as possible - everyone's hand and arm and eye is different, and what is perfect for one person may be only mediocre (or even downright bad) for someone else. I found that the AW.93 was a lovely pistol grip for example, but another pistol shooter who was more petite then my svelte self ( :rolleyes: ) couldn't even get her hand to close round the pistol grip properly which kept throwing shots off for her, even though she's by far the better shooter when using a more suitable pistol.

rrpc

To be honest, the grip is the *most* important part of the pistol, way above any of the other things like digestability of ammo, looks, weight, balance etc.

To that end, you really do have to either spend a lot of time with a dremmel, file and sandpaper, or a fair wad of cash with either Thomas Rink, Nil or Dennis Marschall to get one made for you.

You can't expect to pick up a pistol with the factory grips and hope to get a perfect fit every time, it's just not possible even though there's always a chance that you'll get one to fit you straight off.

The grip should be such that when you raise the pistol, the sights are aligned as well as they can be so that you only have to concentrate on getting on the target for a ten

As for the argument that you're going to get a .22 anyway so why not now. Well I'll just say that many people who have been shooting .22 or bigger have told me that they regretted not getting an air pistol first. I even know one guy who's changing his prized CZ75 for an air pistol as soon as he can.

The point about the availability of somewhere to practice with an air pistol can't be overstressed. If it's a choice between having to travel a couple of hours to a couple of minutes, then I know which one I'd choose. Pistol shooting (well), requires many hours of practice and lots of rounds down the range. People I know who are working hard at improving are using up 500 rounds a week and at €40-€50 minimum, that's a lot of dosh when a tenner a week is the max cost for the same amount of training with an air pistol.

This is not a one instead of another argument, it's more a case of having something you can build on and you'll not want to drop even when you do progress to a cartridge pistol. And quite frankly the progression will be much easier. Sparks first competitve outing with a .22 (having only shot air pistol to that point) with an unfamiliar machine gave him a fourth place finish in the 2006 Nationals and that was only by a point or two if I remember correctly.

Hibrion

On the issue of grip, suppose for a moment that I was going for a .22 pistol the browning buckmark contour has an excellent grip straight from the factory or does it?

rrpc

Hibrion wrote: »

On the issue of grip, suppose for a moment that I was going for a .22 pistol the browning buckmark contour has an excellent grip straight from the factory or does it?

No, not even close.

The grip on that is just a standard grip with finger contours. You can't even get it in different sizes, so tough luck if your hand doesn't match.

AFAIK, Nill are the only people who make a proper grip for the Buckmark.

Hibrion

Hi all.

Was looking at a Smith and Wesson 22a today. I think it is this model:

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_764902_-1_757765_757752_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

Does anyone have any experience with this pistol? It was going for 500 quid and seems to be in a good condition? Would it be better or worse than a Beretta 87 or Hammerli X esse?

Thanks for any feedback you might have.

Bananaman

I have seen the 22a used in a lot of competition

It takes its fair share of the medals - but that, of course, is more to do with the driver.

It would be on a par with the x-sesse - I have used both and prefer the 22a but that is a personal thing. I've never used an 87.

All in all it is a very good and very accurate pistol and very suitable for competition.

B'Man

Hibrion

Thanks B man. What would you expect to pay for one second hand?

Bananaman

Hibrion wrote: »

Thanks B man. What would you expect to pay for one second hand?

Honestly don't know but I have heard of people paying 700 for one - assume new - so that would not be too bad.

B'Man

FISMA

I've owned quite a few 22lr's in pistols and rifles.

I would suggest that you pick up a 22lr revolver, like this

The Sig Mosquito and the Walther P22 are lovely guns to look at, however, the average 22LR round is a difficult to consistently cycle the action of automatics. In any auto, you may have to feed it specific ammo, at the very least more expensive ammo. This kind of defeats the purpose of my 22's - to shoot cheap.

Anyhow, there are some 22's that cycle well: the Browning Buckmark as you mentioned and the Ruger MK series.

Bananaman

Most of what you see used in competitions will feed off any ammo we have here.

Depending on the type of competition you may want to spend a bit more for reliable ammunition for competitions themselves.

Most people (thet I have seen and I have by no means seen em all) simply shoot CCIs or Lapuas but you will see some eley, RWS, etc but it all depends on the size of the bull and whether or not you have the time for a make up shot should you get a dud.

I agree that revolvers are as reliable as they come and if setup correctly are very accurate - just keep in mind what disciplines you want to shoot and that will tell you if the revolver is a suitable option.

B'Man

Glanton

Sparks wrote: »

25 euro for 500 cheap .22 rounds, yes - but for decent .22 rounds you're looking at closer to 60 euro for 500 and that's not top-end, that's Eley Team or the equivalent (top end, you could be looking at 80 or so, depends on the dealer and the price). Top-end, pistol-specific air pellets, at the most, you're looking at 10 euro for 500. And you're more likely to get them for less (again, depends on dealer). So anywhere from 6 to 10 times cheaper.
.)

Are you sure about your prices there Sparks?
I was paying 6 - 8 euro for 500 eley wasp .177s Cheapest on the market
I am now paying 8 euro for 250 bisley magnums.
Ive seen tins of 200 advertised for up to £14 stg in magazines ond on line.

Sparks

That was in April two years ago there Glanton
The price I'm paying has gone up a bit since then - a tin of 500 RWS R10s now costs me €12.

Sparks

And you do get packets of 1-200 pellets, but you're talking there about individually wrapped pellets:



That's pretty much off the top shelf and into the under-the-counter, 90-year-old-scotch sort of territory there.

customrifle

Have a ruger mark II target stainless in .22......... love it. Can be little bit finniky to reassamble but after first couple times you get used to it. Had a h&k usp expert in 9mm before it but find my grouping is so much better with the ruger. It ll shoot everthing and when it starts to get dirty and gives odd gam with the lapua ammo(rounds from the large box seem v greasy) after few hundred, just run some of the cheap hv remington wasps and it ll stay running fine and the groups dont open up that much. Got it 2nd hand this time last year for 350 i think and its still v clean pistol.

Hibrion

Thanks for all the replies. After thinking about it and doing some research I think I might be better off waiting for a Hammerli X esse to come my way. I like the layout and feel better than the Smith and Wesson and the sfter market grips seem to be better and more varied.

Should anyone know of a Hammerli for sale anywhere do let me know. From what I've seen so far a second hand Hammerli should also be a bit cheaper than the S&W.

Greenacre

I bought the 22a and the standard grips are awful, virtually impossible to get good aftermarket wooden grips for it, even Nils dont make them anymore.

Hibrion

I had heard the after market grips were quite bad. They don't look too comfy. The Hammerli Grips look far better.

Sparks

Like rrpc said though, don't expect any factory or off-the-shelf grip for any pistol to be perfect when you pick it up.

Hell, half the ISSF pistols don't even try, you basicly get given a finished pistol attached to a woodworking project kit when you buy one

(well, it's not quite that bad, but I don't think I've ever seen a pistol being used in national or higher competition that hadn't had some carving or building up done, not unless it was a club pistol).

Hibrion

Sparks wrote: »

Like rrpc said though, don't expect any factory or off-the-shelf grip for any pistol to be perfect when you pick it up.

Hell, half the ISSF pistols don't even try, you basicly get given a finished pistol attached to a woodworking project kit when you buy one

(well, it's not quite that bad, but I don't think I've ever seen a pistol being used in national or higher competition that hadn't had some carving or building up done, not unless it was a club pistol).

The Hammerli ones seem to be a little closer to the mark; for me at least.

Kryten

Sparks You must be talking about the lump of 4X2 on the Izzy
Although I had to go at my Marschall grip with a dremel and some wood filler just to get it to point in the right direction.