Unsatified with my test?

Adam Selene

Hi,

I just took a driving test today and I am very unhappy with the way it was conducted. I have a few compaints:

1) The tester was rather large, to the extent that he obstructed the gearstick and handbrake (bearing in mind that I drive a nissan micra and space is at a premium)
2) The tester had a chest infection and was constantly coughing and spluttering, not only was this distracting, he was often unable to give me instructions in a timely manner (at one point I was within 4 meters of a roundabout before he told me the exit).
3) He decided not to wear his seatbelt, which as a driving tester he is perfectly entitled to do. But thinking it might be part of the test I asked him if he was going to use it and I think he took offence.

Do you think this is sufficient grounds for a retest. I have sent a letter to the RSA but I doubt I will get a response for a few days. Would they be likely to give another test to avoid being appealed in the district court.
I got 12 blues in the end but no greens (rather dodgy, hard to believe I have no minor faults while having 12 more serious).
Any opinions

timmywex

Firstly, some testers dont bother marking grade 1's as they have no impact on the outcome!

Its worth applying for a retest, doubt you would get one, theres nothing to be done about a large tester, and it was grin and bare his chest infection or he woulda called in isck and your test cancelled!

If you do decide to appeal down thecourts route, be aware they can only award a retest aswell, and cant overturn the result!

Adam Selene

Maybe he had used up his paid sick days?

But he clearly wasnt fit to be at work, or to conduct a driving test.

And in the example that I gave, I stopped the car (having received my directions too late to check the mirrors and indicate) and he gave me a blue for inadequate progress.

I know that the greens have basically no effect on the test but he should have marked them anyway, thats what he is paid to do. The fact that he didnt do his job in its entiriy should be grounds for a retest. If I took this to court imagine how it would look to the judge.

Simon Jester

Hard luck,

Passed mine today, 3 blues, delighted.

I would dispute it sounds like the tester was being grossly unfair or just not doing his job (its endemic in the RSA, believe me).

DriveSkill

Adam Selene wrote: »

1) The tester was rather large, to the extent that he obstructed the gearstick and handbrake (bearing in mind that I drive a nissan micra and space is at a premium)

This isnt really grounds for an appeal as no doubt the tester will have evidence of numerous tests conducted by him in the past and a percentage of those will obviously have passed.

Adam Selene wrote: »

2) The tester had a chest infection and was constantly coughing and spluttering, not only was this distracting, he was often unable to give me instructions in a timely manner (at one point I was within 4 meters of a roundabout before he told me the exit).

In my opinion this is the only possible grounds you have for appeal - based on the fact that he didnt give timely directions. However that is going to be very difficult to prove as its your word against his - unless of course you have other witness who can say he was constantly coughing and couldnt possibly speak clearly!

Adam Selene wrote: »

3) He decided not to wear his seatbelt, which as a driving tester he is perfectly entitled to do. But thinking it might be part of the test I asked him if he was going to use it and I think he took offence.

As you say he is perfectly entitled not to wear a seatbelt so has no bearing on any potential appeal.

Adam Selene wrote: »

I got 12 blues in the end but no greens (rather dodgy, hard to believe I have no minor faults while having 12 more serious).

In my experience this is not 'dodgy' or 'hard to believe'. It is quite possible that all of the errors you made were worthy of a 'blue' fault. Its quiet common for people to fail by accumulating grade 2 faults with few or no grade 1s. Definitely not grounds for appeal.


So, in my view you have very limited chance of success in an appeal. The appeal process is not great but its what we have to work with and I think the best advice may be to put this behind you, use the experience of doing the test to improve your driving and apply again. Better luck next time.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Adam Selene

Yes, but if I am very nice and polite and make my case well (to the RSA) I might get a test before my beard turns white and my hands turn knobbly with arthritis.

I think my case is pretty watertight though, there is no way that test was fairly conducted and the RSA wont want to be dragged through the court system what with the legal fees.

Buffman

Adam Selene wrote: »

Hi,

I just took a driving test today and I am very unhappy with the way it was conducted. I have a few compaints:

1) The tester was rather large, to the extent that he obstructed the gearstick and handbrake (bearing in mind that I drive a nissan micra and space is at a premium) ......................

.......I have sent a letter to the RSA but I doubt I will get a response for a few days.

I hope you didn't include point 1 in your letter. If so I wouldn't expect much joy with regard to any appeal.

As others have said, an appeal based on him not giving you adequate and timely directions due to sickness may have more chance of success.

Adam Selene

I did, but I used the word "large" and pointed out that he was sitting in an awkward position because of his height.

You thought I meant fat didn't you, how perjoritive, he could have been built like a brick ****house ..... with a beergut.

There isnt really a way to tiptoe around that issue though, he was obstructing the controls, you would expect a driving tester to fit in the car in which he was conducting the test.

DriveSkill

I wouldnt be getting your hopes up too much that your letter will prompt a quick response from the RSA. I would expect a standard reply back detailing the correct procedure for appealing the decision to the District Court if you so wish.

They will follow their procedures - after all it is the public sector If everyone wrote a letter after they failed the test saying they werent happy with one thing or another and they gave out a free test then they would be handing out free tests every day!

Remember the only grounds which you can appeal the result is if the test is not conducted correctly as per the procedures defined by the RSA. Now in your case that would appear to only apply to timely and clear directions from the tester. You didnt say what the faults were marked under apart from the one case, but, if for example there are faults for 'Observation', 'Reaction to Hazards' or 'Insufficient Clearance' etc then you cant really argue that they are the tester fault.

If you've sent the letter already then please come back and let us know the reply but if it was me I would not go to the hassle and stress of taking it to court.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Adam Selene

The fee isnt an issue for me, but if I dont get a license soon I will probably loose my job

One incorrectly awarded fault throws the entire test in doubt, requiring a retest.

and

Testers are supposed to maintain a quiet and non-obtrusive demeanor, coughing your lungs up in my passenger seat is neither quiet or non-obtrusive.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

DriveSkill

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

100% agree...if getting another test date quickly then just apply again. The court route even if successful is not going to give you an immediate date and will most likely be months away even for the court hearing.

DriveSkill

Adam Selene wrote: »

Testers are supposed to maintain a quiet and non-obtrusive demeanor, coughing your lungs up in my passenger seat is neither quiet or non-obtrusive.

Can you provide a reference to this directive ?

As far as I'm aware its not in the 'Standard Procedures' doc...open to correction on that!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Alanstrainor

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

timmywex wrote: »

If you do decide to appeal down thecourts route, be aware they can only award a retest aswell, and cant overturn the result!

OP, as said above, i would learn from the experience and move on. As noted twice already, appealing will not overturn the result. It will ultimately be a hassle and with no guaranteed outcome it seems not to be worth it. From what you said, yes i agree with one point, re: the lack of time between instruction being given and the actual manoeuvre. But it will come down to your word against his. Right or Wrong i dont think it's a battle worth fighting.
Re-apply for your test asap, use this experience to better your driving and Best of Luck with your driving.

Adam Selene

Common-sense, they are not supposed to speak in the test other than to provide directions.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Adam Selene

I am hoping that the RSAs complaints officer has the sense to realise that the test was unfairly conducted and will provide a new test because it is the right thing to do.

I have already applied for a new test, and if the RSA does not provide it free of charge I have every intention of pursuing it with the intention of receiving my 75 back.

donegalfella wrote: »

Speaking and coughing don't exactly fall into the same category, though, do they? He is going to argue that he had a cold and that his coughing was involuntary.

Then he should have taken a sick day, but the fact is he took my money and didnt provide the service required and I would like my money back...please.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Alanstrainor

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Was about to say the same thing:rolleyes:. OP, you came here looking for advice. You have received a wealth of advice from numerous posters with a great amount of knowledge on the subject. Ultimately the decision is yours.

DriveSkill

Adam Selene wrote: »

Common-sense, they are not supposed to speak in the test other than to provide directions.

The point is if you take it to court the "common sense" doesnt come into it - its either in the procedures or not. There is no directive on testers to remain quiet - its true that most do but others do not.

I've just checked the 'Standard Procedures' and the recommendations mainly relate to them being 'Formal but friendly', saying 'Please and Thank-you' etc.

In your case it would come down to whether the tester was medically fit for work or not on the day and whether it impacted the manner in which the test was carried out. You cant argue he was noisy in the car and it distracted you!

Again, to repeat myself, I think you have a fairly weak case. All the RSA would have to do is produce records from the same tester on the same day as you, showing 60% of his candidates passed (or whatever). You have no way of proving that he gave late instructions and the arguement would have to be if some candidates could pass with him on that day then he was up to the job! Unless everyone failed on that day your case doesnt stand up to examination.

Adam Selene

Judges are given plenty of leeway in such matters, they could order another test, or a refund for the last test taken.

The judge would do whatever makes sense, he is not shackeled by the law like us lowly mortals.

But, it has not gone to the courts yet, I have lodged a complaint and there is every chance that the RSA may deal with it themselves.

DriveSkill

Adam Selene wrote: »

Judges are given plenty of leeway in such matters, they could order another test, or a refund for the last test taken.

The judge would do whatever makes sense, he is not shackeled by the law like us lowly mortals.

But, it has not gone to the courts yet, I have lodged a complaint and there is every chance that the RSA may deal with it themselves.

You need to do some research, please read here :

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/travel-and-recreation/motoring-1/driving-tests/appealing-your-driving-test-results

Judges are bound by rules as well as everyone else - there are only 2 possible outcomes from an appeal and the best you get is a free test!

Adam Selene

They arent rules, they are guidelines the RSA would be within their rights to call for judicial review of a refund and they would most likely be told to go and masticate a donkeys testicles, such is the nature of the legal establishment

Sunjammer

Another thing to consider before going down the court route is that you will be liable to pay costs if you are unsuccessful, yours and the RSA's solicitors fees court fees and witness fees for the tester... As others have said it just ain't worth all the grief over €38. I strongly recommend that you put it down to experience, forget about it and concentrate on passing your next test

ztoical

Adam Selene wrote: »

Judges are given plenty of leeway in such matters, they could order another test, or a refund for the last test taken

They can't refund the test, this has been said a number of times and you don't seem to be listening. All the courts can do is give you a free test. If you've already passed your test by then won't be worth much to you or if your in such a rush for another test you'll be waiting a bloody long time going via the courts.

Novella

Adam Selene wrote: »

Hi,

I got 12 blues in the end but no greens (rather dodgy, hard to believe I have no minor faults while having 12 more serious).
Any opinions

No offence but that's a pretty bad fail so I doubt they'd give you a re-test for that at all. Maybe if you'd almost passed....
Your best bet is just to try again. The driving test is insane anyway and a lot of people fail first time. I did. I wouldn't worry too much about it, just do it again and I'm sure you'll be grand.

Cabaal

The whole driving instructor not wearing a seatbelt thing is funny really, its a joke they don't have to wear one and thankfully mine did.

However if my tester last year got into the car and didn't put one on I would have requested that for his own safety and mine that he put one on before we depart the tester (those driving safety ads show if we were in a crash he'd be a danger to me)

gillo_100

For all the hassle its worth I'd stay away from the courts.

If the tester was really big enough to be blocking controls, and I see this as a perfectly valid complaint, it should have been said when test began. I'd write a letter to the RSA anyway complaining so they are aware of the issue, if a number of people complain they'll have to do something about it, even if it means saying tester is medical unfit for the job.

In relation to seatbelt, can anyone enlighten me as to why this exception is here. I can see no reason that the tester should be allowed put their and, but more importantly, my life in more risk. Are they for some reason going to have to suddenly jump out of the car?

DriveSkill

The main reason that instructors and testers are exempt from the seatbelt law is in case they need to take control of the steering to avoid a collision/accident. If they are wearing the seatbelt it may prevent them from reaching the wheel in a hurry!

That being said testers are recommended to wear their seatbelts and most instructors will also wear them except perhaps for the very first lesson with a total beginner where some steering assistance may be needed.

Adam Selene

If the tester was really big enough to be blocking controls, and I see this as a perfectly valid complaint, it should have been said when test began. I'd write a letter to the RSA anyway complaining so they are aware of the issue, if a number of people complain they'll have to do something about it, even if it means saying tester is medical unfit for the job.

He wasnt particularly large, but he was slouching to one side in the seat.

I reckon he was just having an bad day and I cant hold it against him, but I paid my 38 euro for a service and I dont feel that service was provided.

There is a appeals process through the courts with regard to an unfair test that treats the RSA as a govenrnment body, but, they charged a fee which means that they are also subject to consumer protection legislation.

brian.bkenny

In fairness, 75 quid means nothing in the grand scheme of things. The test went a bit pear shaped because of the instructor, fair enough.

I bet once you resit your test and pass it, your not going to really care about the instructor at all.

My advice would be, but the test behind you, start thinking positivity about the next one and pass your test. You'll be over the moon once you do!

Adam Selene

75 euro isnt much in the grand scheme of things but 20 weeks is.

brian.bkenny

Better than messing around in court, either way you want your full license and the only way your going to get it is by resitting your test.

Don't make life harder on yourself!

Simon Jester

ztoical wrote: »

They can't refund the test, this has been said a number of times and you don't seem to be listening. All the courts can do is give you a free test. If you've already passed your test by then won't be worth much to you or if your in such a rush for another test you'll be waiting a bloody long time going via the courts.

I think it is you who misunderstands the system, The driving test has a nominal value of 75 euro. If you were awarded a test you could simply cancel it outside of the 11 days for your "fee".

Indeed, that might not even be necessary as the judge is unkikely to see any practical difference between a free test in the future or a test in the past which could be made free. It is effectively the same thing.

And

The judge would most likely refund the previous test had it been passed as any judicial review would likely inform the RSA to, as the OP eloquently stated "go masticate a donkeys testicles".

In the meantime, I would recommend writing an angry letter to the Irish Times. It is a very theraputic to express your discontent.

ztoical

Simon Jester wrote: »

I think it is you who misunderstands the system, The driving test has a nominal value of 75 euro. If you were awarded a test you could simply cancel it outside of the 11 days for your "fee".

Indeed, that might not even be necessary as the judge is unkikely to see any practical difference between a free test in the future or a test in the past which could be made free. It is effectively the same thing.

And

The judge would most likely refund the previous test had it been passed as any judicial review would likely inform the RSA to, as the OP eloquently stated "go masticate a donkeys testicles".

The Judge cannot overturn the earlier tests results all they can do is give the OP another test - you can't then cancel that test and get a refund, the test is free, no fee was paid.

Simon Jester

I think the assumption is that the OP had passed a test in the meantime, which is plausible given the average waiting list for district court cases.

Indeed, that might not even be necessary as the judge is unkikely to see any practical difference between a free test in the future or a test in the past which could be made free. It is effectively the same thing.

This is the key point you seem to be missing, there is no practical difference and the judge would we well tithin his rights to consider the test already taken as the free test awarded for a sucessful appeal and ask for a refund to be given, the RSA would be unlikely to decline as they would not want the bad press.

I wonder why we are discussing technicalities of the appeals process in the future tense given that the OP has only talked about it in the conditional, I reckon that he/she is hoping for the RSA to recognise the mistakes made, they cant all be useless Westminster Bankers, Walter Anchors or even Oil Tankers

Sunjammer

Simon Jester wrote: »

the RSA would be unlikely to decline as they would not want the bad press.

The RSA are not like a private company therefore have nothing to loose from bad press it's not going to be a case of nobody will apply to take a driving test over this.. In fact an RSA tester and probably his supervisor or chief tester would love their day out in court at the OP's expense.

My feeling is then the OP would not be giving any real favours in a future test they would do every thing by the book and would not be rushing to give a test date, A judge will look at this as a public road safety issue and will take the testers word, so I'd say forget about it and just concentrate on your next test, it's not worth getting worked up about

Simon Jester

I would have to concur with Sunjammer. By all means complain to the RSA over this, They cant give you a test any slower for voicing your discontent but dont expect the world.

I would call the RSA tomorrow and instruct their complaints manager to talk to the tester involved, hopefully they will hear (down the phone line) that he has a chest infection and there is a chance you might be offered another test or a fast track with a new fee.

Incidentally, If you cant drive you probably take the bus right? So you must have plenty of free time in which to make phone calls. I would get a phone plan with free 1890 calls (vodafone does one) and indulge in a little light harrassment, best way to get anything you want. Pay another fee and call them every day and ask if they have a cancellation slot for tomorrow.

Adam Selene

He didn't test me on secondary controls or hand signals, isnt that compulsory?

As for light harrasment, im presuming a govt. agency cant get a restraining order, it would be rather difficult to take a test when I am not allowed within 200m of any RSA employee.

****EDIT****

He definately did not test me on hand signals or secondary controls, the driving test website seems to imply that the secondary control test is compulsory. Does anyone know about this. I think I have the RSA by the Davina McCalls, Niagra falls, Market Stalls or even Cobblers Awls (out cockneyd Simon Jester)

DriveSkill

I think you are clutching at straws! The facts are you have 50% more grade 2 faults than the maximum pass mark and you now seem to be looking for someone else to blame. There may have been contributory factors but you will find those in normal driving also - screaming kids, road rage from other drivers, poor weather and visibility, coughing passengers - you need to be able to cope with all of them. Take the responsibility that your driving at that particular time was not up to standard, learn from it and move on - you will gain very little from chasing the RSA. It still comes down to your word against the tester and no matter what you think the only appeal process is in the District Court.

Testers have a certain amount of discretion during the test - for example if its raining you wont be asked to open the bonnet. Also they are supposed to ask 18 questions but you will hear from most people here that they were asked less. At the end of the day whether you were asked the hand signals or the secondary controls or not would not have impacted the test result except perhaps by adding more grade 2 faults to it.

If you get so caught up in fighting the RSA instead of focussing on improving your driving I think there is a good chance you may fail again next time. Apart from the late instruction you havent mentioned the other faults - what does your driving instructor think of your driving ? Was he/she surprised you failed and what are they advising ?

Adam Selene

Both of my driving insrtuctors were confident I would pass. One of them is an ex SGS tester who gave me a mock test, which I passed. Another person who took a test on wednesday and was unhappy with the tester and is thinking of pursuing a similar complaint (but might not as she has no problems with flouting the law and driving about alone and as a woman she is unlikey to be arrested for driving so).

I would reject the assertion that I am clutching at straws. You would be rather pissed off if you had paid 38 euro and waited 12 weeks before getting a test. Which was then conducted in a sloppy and unprofessional manner. And then told you will have to pay 75 euro and wait another 20 weeks.

I am fully aware that ommitting the secondary controls and hand signals from the test could not have lowered my mark, however it does indicate a sloppy attitude by the tester and if I paid to have my hand signals and heater operation skills tested I will complain that the test was not carried out in full and I would be entitled to a refund under consumer protection legislation that, as a fee charging entity the RSA is subject to (Directive 2005/29/EC the Unfair Commercial Practices Directive).

Testers (like judges incidentally) have a certain amount of discretion but I highly doubt that that extends to the omission a section of the test.

There is no way the RSA can make me wait longer than anyone else for a test and since I am looking at graduating to the Dole Queue soon I will have plenty of time to bitch at the RSA.

DriveSkill

Well I think we've come to an impasse on this thread and we will have to agree to disagree.

There is a well known reaction when people come out of a driving test, its either :

I passed

or

He/she failed me

When people pass the driver takes all the credit for being a great driver and no credit to the tester for maybe being a little lenient or considerate etc. When people fail its usually all the testers fault, marking hard etc - I'm generalising of course but you get what I mean - many people dont take responsibility or accept that it was primarily their own mistakes or failures that caused them to fail.

If you can honestly say that even if you had passed on Wed you would still be asking for a retest because of the 'sloppy and unprofessional manner' in which the test was conducted then fair play to you and I wish you well. However, if you wouldnt want a retest in the case of a pass then I stand by my assumption that you are clutching at straws and looking for someone else to blame instead of just accepting it an moving on.

Best of luck with however you decide to proceed and please do let us know how it goes.

Novella

DriveSkill wrote: »

When people pass the driver takes all the credit for being a great driver and no credit to the tester for maybe being a little lenient or considerate etc.

Agreed!

Adam Selene

I had previously taken a test and I failed that one, The tester was the consumate professional, he examined the whole driving sylabus, not just the bits he felt like, he marked the green faults so I could adjust my driving accordingly. He gave clear directions in good time and when I failed it was my own fault.

The test I took on wednesday was conducted by a tester who was too ill to be working (and I sincerly hope that whatever he had is not conatagious), was slouching in the seat and thus blocking my gearstick and handbrake, couldnt be bothered marking the Green faults AND I now fint that he didnt administer the whold driving test as I am sure his contract states he must.

I think you would be rather pissed off too.

And no, if I passed I would not ask for a retest, I would however lodge a compalint as the tester was unfit to provide directions and could have caused an accident if he was testing a less experienced or more nervous candidate, and if an accident had happened he would have likely killed anyone in the car through his refusal to wear a seatbelt (sheer hypocracy when you consider the millions spent on those buckle- up ads) and if the RSA wanted to dispute the test and take away my certificate of competency they could take me to court and see how it turns out.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ztoical

Adam Selene wrote: »

the test I took on wednesday was conducted by a tester who was too ill to be working (and I sincerly hope that whatever he had is not conatagious), was slouching in the seat and thus blocking my gearstick and handbrake, couldnt be bothered marking the Green faults AND I now fint that he didnt administer the whold driving test as I am sure his contract states he must.

Did you say anything to the tester on the day? Did you tell him you couldn't understand/hear him or that he was giving you directions to late? Did you mention that you were having difficulty operating the controls due to his obstruction of them? If this was your first test you could claim you didn't know any better but you've said this isn't your first test so you should know how the test runs and can't claim nerves for not saying this to the tester. Did you say anything to him during the test regarding his conduct or after the test? Did you contact the RSA straight away? If you take this to court these questions will be brought up and it can be argued that because you didn't bring any of this the tester attention before, during or straight after the test and that you sat the whole test, that there's nothing to be done about it now. It would be like getting a meal that was burnt, eating the whole meal, leaving and coming back the next day and wanting a refund because your meal was burnt.

Adam Selene

Rewritten to improve clarity:

If they give me the impression that they are not following the complaints procedure I will remind them that all of the paperwork produced and decisions made are subject to review, by me, under the freedom of information act.

Did you say anything to the tester on the day? Did you tell him you couldn't understand/hear him or that he was giving you directions to late? Did you mention that you were having difficulty operating the controls due to his obstruction of them? If this was your first test you could claim you didn't know any better but you've said this isn't your first test so you should know how the test runs and can't claim nerves for not saying this to the tester. Did you say anything to him during the test regarding his conduct or after the test? Did you contact the RSA straight away? If you take this to court these questions will be brought up and it can be argued that because you didn't bring any of this the tester attention before, during or straight after the test and that you sat the whole test, that there's nothing to be done about it now. It would be like getting a meal that was burnt, eating the whole meal, leaving and coming back the next day and wanting a refund because your meal was burnt.

I did not specifically mention my grievances to the tester as I was unsure if I could maintain my composure (best not to go rushing into and argument on an adrenaline high). My displeasure however was evident and a complaint was lodged with the RSA on the same day. I dont think having a shouting match with the tester would have been beneficial to anyone, especially the next candidate.

I think before making a complaint it is wise to take a couple of hours to calm down, I did, and after that time I was still resolute in my perception the test had been unfairly conducted.

Thanks for all of your advice, bouncing ideas has been very productive and I think I have a few good points to make to the complaints manager. I still, 72 hours later, feel that the test was unfairly conducted and I am going to pursue it, though not to the point of quixotic stupidity.

greyc

Adam Selene wrote: »

Thanks for all of your advice, bouncing ideas has been very productive and I think I have a few good points to make to the complaints manager.

It's the RSA, what on earth would make you think they have a "Complaints Manager". I'd have to say fair play to you for sticking to your guns but like most other posters here I'd have little hope that you'd be successful either with the RSA or thru the courts, but best of luck anyway.