New Marshall Haze Valve Amps

darrenw5094

http://www.guitarampkeyboard.com/en/80786
Good price on that, that's if it's any good. Not much more expensive than the MG's. All valve though.......

Kill your MG's.

spoonbadger

40w 2 channel all valve combo loaded with reverb and effects. Featuring an ECC83 preamp stage and EL34 Power stage this modern take on classic valve tone is designed to provide Marshall Amplification valve tone at an attractive price point.

I see three sources of ghey thar :).

Will have to see what they're like. But judging from marshall valve combos in the last 30 years, i dont take there's much to look forward to here.

Eoin Madsen

"All-valve" is normally taken to mean that the signal path doesn't contain transistors or diodes. Essentially: diode clipping -> not all-valve; extra FET or op-amp gain stages or buffering -> not all-valve; solidstate effects loop -> not all-valve; inbuilt digital effects -> seriously not all-valve; etc. From what I've seen, I don't think Marshall have designed an all-valve amp since the 70s.

spoonbadger wrote: »

Will have to see what they're like. But judging from marshall valve combos in the last 30 years, i dont take there's much to look forward to here.

+1

Somewhere during the 80s, it all went to hell.

spoonbadger

Eoin Madsen wrote: »

"All-valve" is normally taken to mean that the signal path doesn't contain transistors or diodes. Essentially: diode clipping -> not all-valve; extra FET or op-amp gain stages or buffering -> not all-valve; solidstate effects loop -> not all-valve; inbuilt digital effects -> seriously not all-valve; etc. From what I've seen, I don't think Marshall have designed an all-valve amp since the 70s.



+1

Somewhere during the 80s, it all went to hell.

You could even push it farther and say that truly "all-valve" amps would need a valve rectifier, but that's debateable since it doesn't affect the audio signal path.

It's a pity though, marshall had some of the most perfect amp designs ever, and they weren't particularly complicated. If they got rid of all this practice-amp/signature/digital crap and went back to pre JCM2000 designs, they'd simplify manufacturing a lot and get back so much respect.

darrenw5094

So, you guys are not buying one of these........

Dord

More DSP crap...

They should reissue the Studio 15 combo. I've been looking at them lately and from what I heard they're amazing sounding... but... they used 6V6's. Yes, in a Marshall! :eek:

Here's the spec.

* 15 watts, all tube. 2 12AX7 Preamp tubes along with 2 6V6 power tubes. The first and only Marshall to use 6V6's.
* Built-in attenuator: 25 watt, 10 ohm, wire-wound power resistor. The "speaker emulator" [one user's term] is "nice for headphone use or for recording use". The first and only Marshall amp to include a built-in attenuator.
* Balanced direct XLR Out - the only guitar amp in the brochure to have this.
* Headphone jack on the back. The first valve amp that had a headphone jack.
* To use the attenuator, you unplug the cable of the built-in speaker from the Speaker Out jack, and plug it into the Headphone Out jack instead.
* Made 1986-1992.
* Controls on the front: From left to right: Input / Gain / Treble / Middle/ Bass / Output Level / Standby / Power.
* Controls on the back: Left to right: Power cable connector / Fuse / Balanced Direct Out (Floating Ground) / Speaker Out 8 ohm (disconnect speaker jack for muted or h'phone use) / Headphone Out / Line Out (unbalanced).
* 1x12 combo.
* 1 channel.
* 12" Celestion Vintage 30 speaker - the first Marshall amp to use this speaker.
* DC preamp tube filaments to minimize hum and noise.

Paolo_M

spoonbadger wrote: »

You could even push it farther and say that truly "all-valve" amps would need a valve rectifier, but that's debateable since it doesn't affect the audio signal path.

Well, the valve rectifier does affect the audio path as well as the power supply in general. The valve rectifier causes the famous "sag" the certain valve amps are famous for. The power supply and filtering can make an amp feel "tight and in you face" or open and bluesy depending on the amount of filtering and power supply impedance there is.
Don't forget that an amplifier simply modulates the amplifier power supply in sync with your guitar signal.

It's a pity though, marshall had some of the most perfect amp designs ever, and they weren't particularly complicated. If they got rid of all this practice-amp/signature/digital crap and went back to pre JCM2000 designs, they'd simplify manufacturing a lot and get back so much respect.

Couldn't agree more!!

Eoin Madsen

Dord wrote: »

They should reissue the Studio 15 combo. I've been looking at them lately and from what I heard they're amazing sounding... but... they used 6V6's. Yes, in a Marshall!

Here's the spec.

* 15 watts, all tube. 2 12AX7 Preamp tubes along with 2 6V6 power tubes. The first and only Marshall to use 6V6's.

I've never heard much about them, but I checked out the schematic ages ago because I was curious. There's a bit of diode action going on in there. And 6V6s aside, it's a 12AX7 short of a Marshall.

Eoin Madsen

darrenw5094 wrote: »

So, you guys are not buying one of these........

Nah. You can have them all for yourself. :pac:

spoonbadger

Paolo_M wrote: »

Well, the valve rectifier does affect the audio path as well as the power supply in general. The valve rectifier causes the famous "sag" the certain valve amps are famous for. The power supply and filtering can make an amp feel "tight and in you face" or open and bluesy depending on the amount of filtering and power supply impedance there is.
Don't forget that an amplifier simply modulates the amplifier power supply in sync with your guitar signal.



Couldn't agree more!!

Well true, but the rectifier isnt actually "in" the signal path....

...Although i do enjoy that sag .

Eoin Madsen wrote: »

I've never heard much about them, but I checked out the schematic ages ago because I was curious. There's a bit of diode action going on in there. And 6V6s aside, it's a 12AX7 short of a Marshall.

How could it lose a preamp tube?!. Usually 2 are essential for amplifying and phase inversion, and the other is for EQ, right?. I dont see where it could stand to lose that 3rd tube without dropping the eq?....But then again i'm often wrong .

Question for Paolo/Eoin and any other tech guys out there. The early JCM series ran the signal back through one of the preamp tubes for the extra gain on the high-channel right?. So why would you need diode clipping in valve amps when you just use that setup, maybe tweak it for more gain?.

Just ask because i'm looking at schematics alot lately. I'm thinking about "one-wire-modding" my JTM and i just keep coming up against more questions .

Paolo_M

spoonbadger wrote: »

Question for Paolo/Eoin and any other tech guys out there. The early JCM series ran the signal back through one of the preamp tubes for the extra gain on the high-channel right?. So why would you need diode clipping in valve amps when you just use that setup, maybe tweak it for more gain?.

Just ask because i'm looking at schematics alot lately. I'm thinking about "one-wire-modding" my JTM and i just keep coming up against more questions .

Spot on. The diode clipping circuits came in the 2205 and 2210 amps.
Basically the 2203 circuit (the early JCM you refer too) was a responce to the mods that techs were doing on the 1959 (JMP SL) for more gain ie. cascade the input stages. The 2205/10 was a response to mods techs were doing on the 2203 for more distortion, channel switching etc.
The diodes were simply giving more distortion to the signal that the stock 2203 was.
It is important to note that the diode do not add gain, they chop up the existing signal to produce distortion.

The guys on Metroamp have the "one wire mod" down to an art-form, you may have already checked, but if not it's worth a look.

Taxpayer

darrenw5094 wrote: »

http://www.guitarampkeyboard.com/en/80786
Good price on that, that's if it's any good. Not much more expensive than the MG's. All valve though.......

Kill your MG's.

Different beast entirely

Check them out next month they will be available in Authorised Marshall Stockists....

Taxpayer

Eoin Madsen wrote: »

"All-valve" is normally taken to mean that the signal path doesn't contain transistors or diodes. Essentially: diode clipping -> not all-valve; extra FET or op-amp gain stages or buffering -> not all-valve; solidstate effects loop -> not all-valve; inbuilt digital effects -> seriously not all-valve; etc. From what I've seen, I don't think Marshall have designed an all-valve amp since the 70s.



+1

Somewhere during the 80s, it all went to hell.

Then you are completely unaware of Handwired my friend....

Eoin Madsen

Taxpayer wrote: »

Then you are completely unaware of Handwired my friend....

Those are reissues, not new designs.

Taxpayer

Eoin Madsen wrote: »

Those are reissues, not new designs.

How can you re design a point to point board? What features are you looking for?
Sorry mate didn't read whole thread
Check out Haze all the same

Eoin Madsen

spoonbadger wrote: »

How could it lose a preamp tube?!. Usually 2 are essential for amplifying and phase inversion, and the other is for EQ, right?. I dont see where it could stand to lose that 3rd tube without dropping the eq?....But then again i'm often wrong .

Good question. Usually you either feed a tone stack from a cathode follower, or you feed it from the plate of an extra gain stage. Marshall amps usually have a cathode follower. This one has a plate fed TS but without the extra gain stage to make up the loss in level. I'd say it's a pretty low gain amp.

Eoin Madsen

Taxpayer wrote: »

How can you re design a point to point board? What features are you looking for?

I'm not proposing anything, I was just observing that the amp is not all-valve. Incidentally, it doesn't have to be point-to-point to meet that criterion.

It would be nice if they'd build a new amp which isn't chock full of transistor buffers and fuzzy diode clipping. I mean, they built the JCM800 - it has a fantastic tone and one more versatile than any or all of their latest gen amps. They tried to improve it by over-complicating the circuit, and they ****ed it up. There's nothing to stop them doing it right - take the same basic circuit, add a good and fully bypassable ss FX loop, add channel switching with relays for multiple volume pots and tone stack, have an OT with a line out tap, a half power mode etc. Add a few random extra controls - resonance, a PPIMV, variable negative feedback, attenuator etc. They can do all these things without sucking the life out of the original design. Although they'd have to do it without skimping on the components, as per the "handwired" series, or there'd hardly be a point.

spoonbadger

Taxpayer wrote: »

Then you are completely unaware of Handwired my friend....

The handwired series is nothing special. They're charging idiotic prices for some sort of "top-shelf" line, which in reality is what their mid-level amps *should* be.

Paolo_M wrote: »

Spot on. The diode clipping circuits came in the 2205 and 2210 amps.
Basically the 2203 circuit (the early JCM you refer too) was a responce to the mods that techs were doing on the 1959 (JMP SL) for more gain ie. cascade the input stages. The 2205/10 was a response to mods techs were doing on the 2203 for more distortion, channel switching etc.
The diodes were simply giving more distortion to the signal that the stock 2203 was.
It is important to note that the diode do not add gain, they chop up the existing signal to produce distortion.

The guys on Metroamp have the "one wire mod" down to an art-form, you may have already checked, but if not it's worth a look.

Hmmm,must check out the metro forum so. Google wasn't turning up too much on it unfortunately. What i really need is some form of soundclips of a one-wired JTM. I honestly aint sure if it could take the extra gain without turning into some sort of bassy musical pudding.

Eoin Madsen wrote: »

Good question. Usually you either feed a tone stack from a cathode follower, or you feed it from the plate of an extra gain stage. Marshall amps usually have a cathode follower. This one has a plate fed TS but without the extra gain stage to make up the loss in level. I'd say it's a pretty low gain amp.

I'm slightly lost .

I think you're saying that the haze amps are siphoning power from the valve heaters to up the signal after the EQ?.

I really need to read up on this stuff . Thanks guys!!.

Eoin Madsen

spoonbadger wrote: »

I think you're saying that the haze amps are siphoning power from the valve heaters to up the signal after the EQ?.

I really need to read up on this stuff . Thanks guys!!.

No, the heaters don't really enter into it. They're just short a gain stage (imo). Given the DC heaters and the options on the output transformer, I'd say it'd be a great amp to mod.

darrenw5094

So are the Haze amps any good or total bollox???
Are they much better than the AVT range?

spoonbadger

darrenw5094 wrote: »

So are the Haze amps any good or total bollox???
Are they much better than the AVT range?

Decide for yourself man, here's some clips...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMuv4OC_DVk

It's not particularly bad, and it's a definite step up from the MG/AVT series but it just seems a bit plastic to me. The OD seems fizzy, the cleans seem boring and overall it sounds kinda weak and boxy/unfocused. But then again that's only based on YT vids, if you want a good idea of it go try one out .

Paolo_M

spoonbadger wrote: »

Hmmm,must check out the metro forum so. Google wasn't turning up too much on it unfortunately. What i really need is some form of soundclips of a one-wired JTM. I honestly aint sure if it could take the extra gain without turning into some sort of bassy musical pudding.

The key to gain boosting is to make sure to limit muddy bass frequencies and buzzy higher frequencies when you're doing the mod.
Bass freqs need to be limited to what the amp is capable or reproducing. Bass requires more power than treble and if the power supply, OT, filtering etc. isn't up to it then you'll get a muddy, farty mess.
High frequencies add "sparkle" to clean and mildly overdriven tones, unfortunatley they add :eek: to high gain tones.

Mmmmm...pudding


By the way; a single preamp tube is enough to drive a tone stack, volume control and most power valves to full ouput. You could build a 20 Watt amp with 2 X EL34 and 1 X 12AX7 and even get some overdrive out of it. Three preamp valves (2 X gain, 1 X phase inverter) are capable of producing unlistenable amounts of gain, trust me!!

BSOM

Saw these at a show recently, they are really sweet. I liked the new bright switch idea on it aswell. Also the micro stack (15watt) using one cab would give a great sound being driven by a PA and handy because you wont have to carry so much gear !