BBC Picks for the Lions XV.

thomond2006

BBC rugby analysts and coaches pick their lions teams. A few variations here and there.

WHATEVER YOU DO, YOU MUST READ THE LAST LINE OF KINGSLEY JONES' ARTICLE, IT IS THE FUNNIEST AND MOST STUPID THING I'VE EVER READ. I ALMOST HAD A STROKE, LOL. :D:D:D:D

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/welsh/7988781.stm

Stev_o

thomond2006 wrote: »

BBC rugby analysts and coaches pick their lions teams. A few variations here and there.

WHATEVER YOU DO, YOU MUST READ THE LAST LINE OF KINGSLEY JONES' ARTICLE, IT IS THE FUNNIEST AND MOST STUPID THING I'VE EVER READ. I ALMOST HAD A STROKE, LOL. :D:D:D:D

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/welsh/7988781.stm

You do realise he's taking the mick as he is Sales head coach?

thomond2006

Stev_o wrote: »

You do realise he's taking the mick as he is Sales head coach?

I know, but still, for anyone (even Jones) to suggest it, it's just *sigh*. :D:D:D

eigrod

Just to point out that this is BBC Wales pundits (Scrum V), so should be taken with a pinch of salt.

up them Schteps

I actually agreed with what they had to say. I feel it was 'relativly' unbiased. Intresting though that not one of them selected POC as Captain??

thomond2006

up them Schteps wrote: »

I actually agreed with what they had to say. I feel it was 'relativly' unbiased. Intresting though that not one of them selected POC as Captain??

relatively alright, picking Charlie Hodgson for the plane, ffs.

keane2097

Sean Lamont :eek:

eigrod

thomond2006 wrote: »

relatively alright, picking Charlie Hodgson for the plane, ffs.

padser

Interesting that not one of them picked Ferris (possibly our stand out backrow from the 6N I thought) - although one did mention a potential clean sweep for Ireland in the backrow.

I also thought it was interesting that most of them put Bowe on the wing but none of them mentioned Fitz - I would probably agree with this but thought Fitz was close enough to Bowe to that someone might have gone for him over Bowe.

bleg

padser wrote: »

I also thought it was interesting that most of them put Bowe on the wing but none of them mentioned Fitz - I would probably agree with this but thought Fitz was close enough to Bowe to that someone might have gone for him over Bowe.

it's because bowe had the moment of glory in cardiff. don't get me wrong i think they're both good players but foreign pundits are going to remember a game turning point like that over anything else

thomond2006

Does anyone think good ol' Charlie is up for selection?? :D

barnesd

thomond2006 wrote: »

Does anyone think good ol' Charlie is up for selection?? :D

Give it a rest for crying out loud. IT IS A JOKE.

themont85

How two of those chaps could actually pick R Jones at 8 and one as captain is really a mystery to me. The guy shouldn't be in the squad imo let alone the test team.Gareth Llwellyn has 9 Welsh starting, 9! A bit ridiculous to say the least. And Henson, good God would people let it go, he has talent but is injured, hasn't exactly been incredible this year and isn't a great influence on a squad.

chupacabra

themont85 wrote: »

How two of those chaps could actually pick R Jones at 8 and one as captain is really a mystery to me. The guy shouldn't be in the squad imo let alone the test team.Gareth Llwellyn has 9 Welsh starting, 9! A bit ridiculous to say the least. And Henson, good God would people let it go, he has talent but is injured, hasn't exactly been incredible this year and isn't a great influence on a squad.

But... they're welsh what did you expect from them?

barnesd

chupacabra wrote: »

But... they're welsh what did you expect from them?

I've a feeling we'll see a lot of reputation rather than form picks. Shane Williams is another who shouldn't be in the test side on current form imo, but is very likely to be.

Noopti

I am very surprised by the backrow selections of these pundits. Irelands backrow was one of the standout units in the whole 6 Nations. Wallace and Heaslip should at least be the starting 7 & 8 respectively, and I would also include Ferris. His workrate and strength was fantastic and he is the type of 6 we need against the Saffies.

barnesd

Noopti wrote: »

I am very surprised by the backrow selections of these pundits. Irelands backrow was one of the standout units in the whole 6 Nations. Wallace and Heaslip should at least be the starting 7 & 8 respectively, and I would also include Ferris. His workrate and strength was fantastic and he is the type of 6 we need against the Saffies.

All 5 of the pundits are Welsh. I also think there's a very strong case for the Irish backrow to start.

Noopti

barnesd wrote: »

All 5 of the pundits are Welsh. I also think there's a very strong case for the Irish backrow to start.

Yeah, that is obviously a factor - and one of the reasons for choosing Jones in the backrow. He didn't have a standout 6N by any means. One of them chose him because he is a leader - well he should be leading the a mid-week team in all honesty.

gilmore

Have to say i think that Fitzgerald will be a bigger threat to S. Africa than Bowe or Williams (has shown absolutely no form this year).

Otacon

gilmore wrote: »

Have to say i think that Fitzgerald will be a bigger threat to S. Africa than Bowe or Williams (has shown absolutely no form this year).

Not that I agree, but the perception will be that he is too light.

Noopti

Otacon wrote: »

Not that I agree, but the perception will be that he is too light.

Hopefully there is a perception he is weak from SA. Fitzgerald has put in a countless number of thumping hits in this season. The incorrect perception that he is too light and defensively weak has been doing the rounds for a long time, but again, hopefully he is picked for the Lions and they completely underestimate him.

barnesd

He probably has 2 stone on Shane Williams.

Noopti

barnesd wrote: »

He probably has 2 stone on Shane Williams.

Plus he is a better defender.

Quint

Only 1 has picked Tom Croft. Good lineout option to have too.

anonymous_joe

There's a good case for all 3 being Irish, but you could pick great backrows with no Irish if you wanted.

Croft, Williams, Powell/Jones off the top of my head - would be very powerful.

Again, I'd go with -

6. Ferris
7. Williams
8. Wallace/Heaslip

(With Wallace switching to 7 when Williams has to go off)

You can't leave Ryan Jones or Martyn Williams behind, you have to take Heaslip and Wallace, and probably Worsely and Croft, plus Strokosch (how the hell do you spell his name?) had a very good 6 Nations and earned a lot of plaudits in the media. Assuming 2 for each position and one wild card, it's more a case of working out who to leave behind than who to bring...

Amabokke

gilmore wrote: »

Have to say i think that Fitzgerald will be a bigger threat to S. Africa than Bowe or Williams (has shown absolutely no form this year).

:D Fitzgerald will be squashed like a bug...too young, lightweight and inexperienced for a Lions tour. At least Williams scored against SA (and Habana) in the last game and have the experience of playing in SA recently.

Noopti

Amabokke wrote: »

:D Fitzgerald will be squashed like a bug...too young, lightweight and inexperienced for a Lions tour. At least Williams scored against SA (and Habana) in the last game and have the experience of playing in SA recently.

Looks like a Bok just proved the point I was making above. Geechan should definitely start Fitzgerald, because if the actual Saffie team show the same level of ignorance of his abilities he is bound to have more space afforded to him.

Amabokke

If anyone believes that the backrow should be made up completely from the Irish squad then your biased. It is good that there is so many good backrow players for the Lions but a big physical presence is going to be neede. The last time Wales played SA, the big strong boks pack did not like the physicality of Andy Powell. Heaslip had a good 6N but believe will come out second agains the likes of Burger, Smit and Spies.

Noopti

Amabokke wrote: »

If anyone believes that the backrow should be made up completely from the Irish squad then your biased. It is good that there is so many good backrow players for the Lions but a big physical presence is going to be neede. The last time Wales played SA, the big strong boks pack did not like the physicality of Andy Powell. Heaslip had a good 6N but believe will come out second agains the likes of Burger, Smit and Spies.

Ferris/Wallace/Heaslip is a great combination of defensive power (Ferris), offensive power/groundwork (Wallace) and attacking prowess (Heaslip).

Powell had a mediocre 6 Nations (did you even watch the Wales games?). And he also showed an innate ability to leave his brain on the bus. Against SA we will need a lot more than a brainless barge.

Edit: I am not saying the Irish backrows only have those abilities, but these are their strongest individial traits in my opinion.

toomevara

Amabokke wrote: »

The last time Wales played SA, the big strong boks pack did not like the physicality of Andy Powell..

And the last time Ireland played Wales we comprehensively demolished Powell. He's a solid player with bags of heart but he's very,very one dimensional...England also tore him to shreds.

Now I know you're a Bok, so you're probably hoping we'll stick a clueless basher in there, but to quote Tony Soprano 'fuggedabboudit!!!' Powell will be a dirttracker at best...

Amabokke

Noopti wrote: »

Looks like a Bok just proved the point I was making above. Geechan should definitely start Fitzgerald, because if the actual Saffie team show the same level of ignorance of his abilities he is bound to have more space afforded to him.

Don't confuse ignorance with experience, confidence and home advantage.

Take nothing away from Fitz, I do rate him. But this is not another HC or ML match. This will be tough, have you seen any of the S14 matches and the wings we have to our disposal (apart from Habana and Pietersen who is first choice but not on form). Fitz will not be given any space and a guy like spies (former winger) will have no problem in cover defence in catching up to Fitz.

Noopti

Amabokke wrote: »

Don't confuse ignorance with experience, confidence and home advantage.

Take nothing away from Fitz, I do rate him. But this is not another HC or ML match. This will be tough, have you seen any of the S14 matches and the wings we have to our disposal (apart from Habana and Pietersen who is first choice but not on form). Fitz will not be given any space and a guy like spies (former winger) will have no problem in cover defence in catching up to Fitz.

Well over confidence can breed ignorance, and it seems you have no experience of Fitzgerald!

Fitzgerald had an excellent 6N (which is a higher level than HC/ML/S14) and showed a more attacking prowess and defensive abilities than Williams.
Yes, Williams is more experienced and has played recently in SA - but that is not as important as form. And Fitzgerald is in better form.

Having said that, I believe Geechan will probably pick Williams. Unless Fiztgerald continues to play himself into the team, and he has been doing this consistently up to now - before the 6N not many were even considering him for a spot on the plane - and I have no reason to suspect he will stop now!

Stev_o

toomevara wrote: »

And the last time Ireland played Wales we comprehensively demolished Powell. He's a solid player with bags of heart but he's very,very one dimensional...England also tore him to shreds.

Now I know you're a Bok, so you're probably hoping we'll stick a clueless basher in there, but to quote Tony Soprano 'fuggedabboudit!!!' Powell will be a dirttracker at best...

Eh...toom we never played against Powell yet *cough* yeahh...

Noopti

Stev_o wrote: »

Eh...toom we never played against Powell yet *cough* yeahh...

lol

But the Italians did and he was useless. :pac:

toomevara

Stev_o wrote: »

Eh...toom we never played against Powell yet *cough* yeahh...

Ahem....yeah, no, of course, I mean, I knew that, just testing...am..yep...anyhoo... *moves slowly towards door, gets coat and legs it*...

Quint

Amabokke wrote: »

:D Fitzgerald will be squashed like a bug...too young, lightweight and inexperienced for a Lions tour. At least Williams scored against SA (and Habana) in the last game and have the experience of playing in SA recently.

Maybe you should take a look at Ireland V New Zealand last year, Fitz Irelands best player

GiftofGab

Amabokke wrote: »

:D Fitzgerald will be squashed like a bug...too young, lightweight and inexperienced for a Lions tour. At least Williams scored against SA (and Habana) in the last game and have the experience of playing in SA recently.

Williams had a terrible game that match. Besides the try he did nothing for the whole game. We need a good all-arounder. Williams is starting to lose it. He's weak defensively and is only spectactuar when Wales are winning and when he's full of confidance. "He'll be squashed like a bug" you say, Fitz is better defensively than Williams. Williams has been caught out of position and targeted on numerous occasions lately.

Id like to see Fitz start and Williams to come on as a super sub around the 60min mark.

thomond2006

Remember Williams vs All Blacks in the 2nd test? Was badly exposed.

Amabokke

Quint wrote: »

Maybe you should take a look at Ireland V New Zealand last year, Fitz Irelands best player

Last year does not matter and one match does not make you the best or quarantee you a starting spot in the Lions squad. They're not playing the ABs, they are playing against the boks in SA, which is the toughest place to go and play rugby in. Fitzgerald is good but too lightweight and with a bit more experience will be one of the best in NH.

Someone mentioned that HC is far superior to S14, ML, 6N etc. - Well, for NH standards it is the best you'll get. The 6N was ordinary this year and although Fitz, Bowe, etc. did good enough it wasnt an awesome performance by SH standards. Since the Lions will be going down south the standard and intensity would need to be lifted.

Noopti

Amabokke wrote: »

Last year does not matter and one match does not make you the best or quarantee you a starting spot in the Lions squad.

You say last year doesn't matter yet your reasoning for including Williams was that he scored a try against you....last year. And that he has played against the Boks before....last year. :rolleyes:

Podge_irl

Amabokke wrote: »

They're not playing the ABs, they are playing against the boks in SA, which is the toughest place to go and play rugby in. Fitzgerald is good but too lightweight and with a bit more experience will be one of the best in NH.

I'll admit to not having the stats to hand, but I would imagine NZ's record in NZ is better then SA's in SA. The Boks are not rugby deities. And Fitz isn't too lightweight and he has an exceptionally good tackling technique. I wouldn't necessarily start him, but I would have no worries if he did start.

Amazotheamazing

Quint wrote: »

Maybe you should take a look at Ireland V New Zealand last year, Fitz Irelands best player

Em, Fitz missed 7 tackles in that game.

Podge_irl

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Em, Fitz missed 7 tackles in that game.

He also made the most tackles of anyone. Anyway, the only stats I can find are the scrum.com ones and I have never ever trusted them.

Amabokke

Podge_irl wrote: »

I'll admit to not having the stats to hand, but I would imagine NZ's record in NZ is better then SA's in SA. The Boks are not rugby deities. And Fitz isn't too lightweight and he has an exceptionally good tackling technique. I wouldn't necessarily start him, but I would have no worries if he did start.

When was the last time a NH team have won in SA?

Noopti

Amabokke wrote: »

When was the last time a NH team have won in SA?

I see you ignored my previous post. So here is it again:

Amabokke wrote: »

Last year does not matter and one match does not make you the best or quarantee you a starting spot in the Lions squad.

You say last year doesn't matter yet your reasoning for including Williams was that he scored a try against you....last year. And that he has played against the Boks before....last year. :rolleyes:

Amazotheamazing

Podge_irl wrote: »

He also made the most tackles of anyone. Anyway, the only stats I can find are the scrum.com ones and I have never ever trusted them.

Doesn't matter, miss seven tackles against a pumped up SA and it's curtains. Don't forget what SA did to Denis Hickie, this could be a brutal tour.

Podge_irl

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Doesn't matter, miss seven tackles against a pumped up SA and it's curtains. Don't forget what SA did to Denis Hickie, this could be a brutal tour.

I don't disagree, but I still don't think he missed seven tackles in that game. Where are you taking that from? Like I said, I don't trust scrum.com, they came up with some ridiculous stats during the 6N. Also, I remember seeing stats claiming Hickie missed 6 tackles in the Munster semi, but 4/5 of them were him kicking ahead and then failing to tackle the man who collected the ball. They were misleading stats at best, something similar clearly happened in the NZ game (or they're just plain wrong).

Amabokke

Podge_irl wrote: »

I don't disagree, but I still don't think he missed seven tackles in that game. Where are you taking that from? Like I said, I don't trust scrum.com, they came up with some ridiculous stats during the 6N. Also, I remember seeing stats claiming Hickie missed 6 tackles in the Munster semi, but 4/5 of them were him kicking ahead and then failing to tackle the man who collected the ball. They were misleading stats at best, something similar clearly happened in the NZ game (or they're just plain wrong).

How is that not a missed tackle. You don't see NZ wingers miss those.

Stealdo

I keep saying this in all of these lions threads but here goes again, there's no one (the two realistic potential captains aside) who is guaranteed a test spot or who will travel but will definitely not get a test spot. It will all come down to tactics, balance and form will be the deciding factors once out there, and probably in that order. I'd expect McGeechan and co to come up with a game plan and then pick a team to execute it. Picking the best player in each position and then trying to come up with a plan would get you squashed in my view.

The funniest thing about that article was not your man's comments about Hodgson, it was talking about the importance of balance and then picking two loose heads. I actually think this may result in AWJ being on the bench for DOC, even though I think AWJ is a superior player. (His 'tackle' on Warwick at the weekend not withstanding)

On the backrow situation, Ireland's is a well balanced back row, but it suits the way Ireland approach the game combinations will be tried through the provincial games and something will emerge. I'd be very surprised if Andy Powell is on the plane at this stage. I think Wallace, Williams, Ferris, Jones, Easter, Heaslip are shoo ins and Croft is the next choice. I like the look of Ferris, Easter, Willams with Wallace on the bench, but you'd have to see how it works in reality.

So another point for the bench, you have to consider players who offer you variety and cover. David Wallace is imo the best back row player at the minute, and rivalling Richard Hill in versatility/ability. But he's by far the best option to have on the bench, it's just a matter of whether you can afford to leave him off the pitch. For that reason a guy like Shane Williams is either starting or he's not in the 22. You can't afford to have a one dimensional player like Williams on the bench cos he offers you very little in options to change the game. Any of the Irish back 3 or armitage, even halfpenny would be a better #22.

At this stage there's little or no playing left before the squad is announced so the picture is reasonably clear. The biggest trouble spots in my mind are the half backs. We've no real standouts in either position, several decent players in unspectacular form at 9, but 10 is a real problem for me. There are only 2 that even remotely deserve a touring spot and they're both iffy. Picking a 3rd you're really just praying for a bolter.

Amazotheamazing

Podge_irl wrote: »

I don't disagree, but I still don't think he missed seven tackles in that game. Where are you taking that from? Like I said, I don't trust scrum.com, they came up with some ridiculous stats during the 6N. Also, I remember seeing stats claiming Hickie missed 6 tackles in the Munster semi, but 4/5 of them were him kicking ahead and then failing to tackle the man who collected the ball. They were misleading stats at best, something similar clearly happened in the NZ game (or they're just plain wrong).

When we see guys like Fitz and Earls play we don't just see how good they are, we see how good they could be. That's fine for Ireland, but it's not really going to help the Lions. If fitz has another off day tackling, i doubt we'll hear anyone going, "well he has to learn sometime, it's good for his development etc", instead we'll hear "well we missed some tackles and we lost the game, the series could be lost now".

Part of me would love to see guys like Fitz and Earls tour, but another wonders if it isn't a bridge too far too soon.