Politics Forum

Hagar

May we discuss this post by the Politics Mod GuanYin please . Link.

Two posters, of which I was one, posted two brief comments in Irish in the Politics Forum. The posts were deleted so I can't quote them here. Perhaps a Politics Mod would be good enough to cut and paste them.

The response was:
"This is an english language forum and it exceptionally rude to post in a language that some users may not understand.
I'm going to view continued posting in Gaelic as uncivil, and off topic and infract or ban.".

There is no mention in the Forum Charter to specify the English was the only permitted language nor is there any mention that Irish is not allowed if you see the distinction I am making. I can see no objection by anybody, other than GuanYin, to the brief exchange in Irish either on thread or in the Reported Posts forum.

I object to the mis-statement that the forum is difinitively an English language only forum. There is nothing in the Charter to support this statement.

I object to the inference that I am both "rude" and "uncivil" for attempting to post in Irish.

I object to being threatened with an infraction or a ban when I have not contravened anything in the Charter.

I reject the claim that the posts in Irish were off topic. What was said was pertinent to the discussion.

I object to that heavy handed dismissal of the casual use of cúpla focal in a discussion about the Rising that led to the eventual freedom of our nation.


And here endeth the rant. Let all parties concerned draw near and speak their part.

Gordon

Although I think GuanYin came down a little hard without a comment to keep the language in English, I do think it's rude to converse in a language that is not in keeping with the forum. Fair enough, it's not written in the charter but you wouldn't expect someone to wax lyrical in German on the Politics forum, so why Gaelic?

Maybe what you were both conversing about was generally understood in non-Gaelic speaker Irish vocabulary, I dunno, I don't even speak Scots Gaelic, but it could well have been off topic for all GuanYin knew.

Maybe an addition to the charter to mention the language of the forum is in order though.

Hagar

In fairness if GuanYin didn't understand the comments she could have referred it to a mod who did or even asked either of the posters for a translation instead of coming in like gangbusters. As I said it was only a brief exchange 2 or 3 sentences.

wax lyrical in German

With the utmost respect it's not Boards.de The odd Irish phrase slipped in now and then on one of Ireland's most popular sites should hardly cause a problem. Lots of Irish people speak or understand Irish.

I would object most voiciferously to any specific exclusion of the Irish Language from any forum on Boards.ie. I accept that widespread use might be a problem for those who don't understand the language but let's be honest that is not going to happen. To forbid the odd word here or there would be a step too far.

sceptre

I'd rather not insert a specific-english language only clause in the charter (incidentally with rules I've set in the past in RL for specific reasons I tend to informally refer to them by the catalyst so this would be the Hagar clause).

However, I've always seen language as something to facilitate communication, not exclude it. It's for that reason, as a slightly side-note illustration, that while I'm a big fan of good grammar and spelling, I'm not a big fan of those that denigrate the points made by those who don't spel wel merely on that basis.

It's true to say that lots of Irish people speak or understand irish. Conversely, it's also true to say that many of them don't. Census figures make interesting reading when the not-at-school-ages are considered. I'm more interested in everyone who can read the forum being able to read the forum.

Hagar

I think context is very important, a thread about say bus fares could attract posters with an interest in commuting & transport or infrastructure but a thread about celebrating the 93rd Anniversary of the Easter Rising is likely to attract posters of a nationalist bent. It would not be an exaggeration to believe that they might be comfortable to a large degree with the Irish language. So an exchange in Irish amongst them in that context should not be viewed negatively IMHO.

In fairness I would not expect those who would come to troll such a thread to be equally at ease as Gaeilge but should we take their feelings into account?

I certainly wouldn't expect posters who would include images of the Union Flag as a blatant troll to post in Irish.



The Hagar Clause - I kinda like that.

sceptre

Hagar wrote: »

I think context is very important, a thread about say bus fares could attract posters with an interest in commuting & transport or infrastructure but a thread about celebrating the 93rd Anniversary of the Easter Rising is likely to attract posters of a nationalist bent. It would not be an exaggeration to believe that they might be comfortable to a large degree with the Irish language. So an exchange in Irish amongst them in that context should not be viewed negatively IMHO.

In fairness I would not expect those who would come to troll such a thread to be equally at ease as Gaeilge but should we take their feelings into account?

I try not to take the feelings of trolls into account at all as a rule. However, without me referring to the thread at all, a thread about the Easter Rising is definitely going to attract people who reckon that it should be commemorated, that the thing should never have taken place, that those taking part were wrong, that the current state of the nation is disrespectful to their memory, those that want another rising (preferably tomorrow), that they should have been lauded, that they should have been shot quicker, that those that spat at them should have been shot, that we should have taken the north by force at some point in the past 90 years, that we shouldn't have left the UK at all, that we shouldn't have left the commonwealth at all, perhaps that we should take London as compensation (at least the nicer bits) and so forth. Posting a view akin to any of the above isn't trolling by mere definition. Posting a view akin to even the parts of the above that the majority of contributors would consider disrespectful or even treasonous isn't necessarily trolling, it might even be a worthwhile discussion. And that's what the forum is for. And if some of those are Trinity graduates, they've got a view too. Some of them mightn't speak irish. And as it happens, if the comments were put in more complicated irish (even if all of them were grammatically correct, which by-the-by wasn't the case), I mightn't have been able to understand them either.

I certainly wouldn't expect posters who would include images of the Union Flag as a blatant troll to post in Irish.

I wouldn't either. But trolls come in many varieties. Discussing the troll feeds the troll. Discussing the troll in irish may only feed the troll if it speaks irish but as a tangent, the comments were discussing the troll. Don't feed it - it might grow and learn and somehow still remain a troll.

I'm pretty sure I'm au fait with where you're coming from here, both the general and specific case and as you can see I'm completely supportive of limited use of non-english phrases where they're appropriate and desirable and necessary and generally understood. But starting a side-discussion in any non-english language, including the language of my great-great-grandfather, admirable as it may be, isn't fair on the contributors and readers who don't speak that language. It ends up excluding. Which ironically, is the opposite of what the proclamation being discussed in the thread sought to do, regardless of whether you agree with that proclamation or not.

The Hagar Clause - I kinda like that.

Thought you might:)

GuanYin

I wouldn't say I was severe so much as matter of fact.

However some points:

1. The initial comment by Cliste was forum pimping. I'm pretty sure that is an unwritten no-no, on regular boards.ie fora. It has certainly never been allowed where I've been a mod.

2. The debate was somewhat heated and tending towards the usual "Old Enemy" friction with, it would appear, non-Irish posters posting in the thread. Responding to the initial Irish language phrase was rude imo, it was off topic, it was still pimping and whether or not it is boards.ie it is an English language forum, there are specific fora for conversing in Gaelic.

3. I discussed the matter with a Co-Mod at the time and he was in agreement with my decisions.

Hagar

I don't honestly believe that exclusion was the intent.
I can't read the posts now but the gist was
Poster C "There's a lot of crap going on here, there's a more on topic thread in progress in Teach na nGealt"
Poster H "And we won't have to look at that awful flag"

I'd say the intent was more "let's go and leave the shyte stirrers to it". If I may I'd say that is fairly much in line with what you have said above about not feeding the trolls. I can't see either the language or the sentiment as being problematic. I know my Irish wasn't great, I don't get much chance to practice it here, so it could be mis-interpreted as meaning something slightly different to what was intended.

I must be honest I suspected from the moment I saw GuanYin post that it was a generic "I have no idea what was said but you're not saying that here" type of reaction. It wasn't called for, I felt the threats of banning and infractions were OTT.

I believe, but I'm not going to try and force it down anyone's throat, that I should be able to converse with anyone in Irish in Ireland without having to worry unduly about those who cannot understand me.

Of course I accept that this is a private site and I have no absolute rights whatsoever. If you decide that I and others may not post in Irish anywhere on this site except for certain designated areas that is your absolute right and I would have to abide by that. However until that is carved in stone in a Charter myself and others would not be doing anything wrong posting the odd cúpla focal and we should not have ban hammers waved at us.

GuanYin

Hagar wrote: »

I don't honestly believe that exclusion was the intent.

I didn't accuse you of exclusion. And I wasn't calling you rude per se, but I believe that if you are having a discussion in company and you turn to speak to the person beside you in a language that some may not understand, it is ride.

I'd say the intent was more "let's go and leave the shyte stirrers to it". If I may I'd say that is fairly much in line with what you have said above about not feeding the trolls. I can't see either the language or the sentiment as being problematic. I know my Irish wasn't great, I don't get much chance to practice it here, so it could be mis-interpreted as meaning something slightly different to what was intended.

If you'd posted it in english, I would have told you to get back on topic. Even still Hagar, as a pretty senior mod, you should know that reporting a post and then making comment on the post you reported isn't really a thing that should be done.

I must be honest I suspected from the moment I saw GuanYin post that it was a generic "I have no idea what was said but you're not saying that here" type of reaction. It wasn't called for, I felt the threats of banning and infractions were OTT.

I had it translated before I acted. I'm not stupid.

As I said, forum pimping and off topicness

I believe, but I'm not going to try and force it down anyone's throat, that I should be able to converse with anyone in Irish in Ireland without having to worry unduly about those who cannot understand me.

By your own logic on "interest groups" to a thread, I could converse with fellow Chinese in mandarin in any of the PRC/China threads in politics?

Or given that Polish is such a dominant language in Ireland, is it OK to speak that?

We're not trying to put preference over a culture, we're just trying to make sure everyone has a level playing field.

Of course I accept that this is a private site and I have no absolute rights whatsoever. If you decide that I and others may not post in Irish anywhere on this site except for certain designated areas that is your absolute right and I would have to abide by that. However until that is carved in stone in a Charter myself and others would not be doing anything wrong posting the odd cúpla focal and we should not have ban hammers waved at us.

As a compromise, I have no problem with you posting in Irish so long as you provide the english subtitles for non-english speakers.

sceptre

GuanYin wrote: »

As a compromise, I have no problem with you posting in Irish so long as you provide the english subtitles for non-english speakers.

I think that's reasonable. I don't think the comments were intended to exclude (actually, I'm pretty sure they weren't) but that's the basic result.

Hagar

GuanYin wrote: »

I didn't accuse you of exclusion. And I wasn't calling you rude per se, but I believe that if you are having a discussion in company and you turn to speak to the person beside you in a language that some may not understand, it is ride.

Not in bi-lingual company it's not. I'm not responsible for the general public's ability to speak both of our official languages.

GuanYin wrote: »

If you'd posted it in english, I would have told you to get back on topic. Even still Hagar, as a pretty senior mod, you should know that reporting a post and then making comment on the post you reported isn't really a thing that should be done.

I had it translated before I acted. I'm not stupid.

As I said, forum pimping and off topicness

Because I posted as Gaeilge your warning was far more severe?
What I posted in Irish was on topic, posting a Union Flag in a thread commemorating a Rising to have it removed was antagonistic.

I posted publicly that I had reported the post in response to another poster getting wound up over it in an effort stop the thread being derailed by complaints or trolls. I effectively said "Be patient the mods attention has already been drawn to it". Not a bad post really.

A poster said there is a another thread in Irish elsewhere.
Forum pimping is perhaps overstaing it a bit.

GuanYin wrote: »

By your own logic on "interest groups" to a thread, I could converse with fellow Chinese in mandarin in any of the PRC/China threads in politics?

Or given that Polish is such a dominant language in Ireland, is it OK to speak that?

We're not trying to put preference over a culture, we're just trying to make sure everyone has a level playing field.

Irish is our national language, our native language and first language to many of our posters, despite outsiders best efforts to extinguish it, Polish or Chinese aren't so the comparison isn't vaild

GuanYin wrote: »

As a compromise, I have no problem with you posting in Irish so long as you provide the english subtitles for non-english speakers.

Extermely magnanimous of you, not the worst compromise I've ever heard.
For the record I won't be doing Polish or Chinese.

Hagar

Never let it be said that I'm unwilling to meet anybody halfway.

You must have Chinese Characters enabled to see the second one.

If you have difficulty reading them here are links in pdf format. Polish. Chinese.


HTH = Hope that helps or Hagar the Horrible

Republika Irlandii
___________________________
Rząd Tymczasowy
Irlandzkiej Republiki Ludowej

Irlandczycy I Irlandki: W imię Boga I zmarłych pokoleń, od których otrzymała swą dawną tradycję narodową Irlandia, za naszym pośrednictwem, zwołuje dzieci pod swój sztandar I zrywa do walki o niepodległość.
Zorganizowawszy I wyćwiczywszy swych mężów przez tajną organizację rewolucyjną, Irlandzkie Bractwo Republikańskie, oraz prez jawne organizacje militarne, Ochotników Irlandzkich I Irlandzką Armię Obywatelską, cierpliwie ćwicząc karność, świadomie czekając na właściwą chwilę swojego objawienia, korzysta teraz z chwili I wspierana przez swe wygnane dzieci w Ameryce I przez swych dzielnych sprzymierzeńców w Europie zrywa się ona z pełną wiarą w zwycięstwo.
Zorganizowawszy i wyćwiczywszy swoich mężów przez tajną rewolucyjną organizację, Irlandzkie Bractwo Republikańskie, oraz przez jawne organizacje militarne Irlandzkich Ochotników i Irlandzką Armię Obywatelską, cierpliwie ćwicząc karność, świadomie czekając na właściwą chwilę swojego objawienia, korzysta teraz z tej chwili i wspierana przez swe wygnane dzieci w Ameryce i przez swych dzielnych sprzymierzeńców w Europie zrywa się ona z pełną wiarą w zwycięstwo.
Ogłaszamy, że lud Irlandii ma prawo do posiadania Irlandii i do uwolnionej z więzów kontroli irlandzkich przeznaczeń, do suwerenności i nienaruszalności. Ani długa uzurpacja przez obcy lud i rząd prawa tego nie unicestwiła, ani nie może ono nigdy być unicestwione chyba że poprzez zagładę ludu irlandzkiego. W każdym pokoleniu upominał się lud irlandzki o swoje prawa do narodowej wolności i suwerenności: sześć razy w ciągu minionych trzystu lat upominał się o nie zbrojnie. Stojąc na gruncie tego podstawowego prawa i znowu upominając się o nie zbrojnie w obliczu świata, proklamujemy tym sposobem Republikę Irlandzką jako państwo suwerenne i niepodległe i poręczamy życiem naszym i naszych towarzyszy broni sprawę jej wolności, jej dobrobytu i jej wywyższenia pośród narodów.
Republika Irlandzka ma prawo wymagać i wymaga posłuszeństwa od każdego Irlandczyka i Irlandki.
Republika gwarantuje swobody religijne i obywatelskie, równe prawa i równe możliwości wszystkim swoim obywatelom i deklaruje swoje zdecydowanie zmierzać do szczęścia i powodzenia całego narodu i każdej jego części, kochając wszystkie dzieci narodu jednakowo i puszczając w niepamięć starannie hołubione przez obcy rząd różnice, które w przeszłości oddzieliły mniejszość od większości.
Dopóki nasza broń nie przyniesie chwili stosownej do ustanowienia Rządu Narodowego, reprezentującego cały lud Irlandii i wybieranego przez głosowanie wszystkich mężczyzn i kobiet, Rząd tymczasowy niniejszym powołany zarządzać będzie cywilnymi i wojskowymi sprawami Republiki w trosce o lud.
Oddajemy sprawę Republiki Irlandzkiej pod opiekę Boga Najwyższego, błogosławieństwa Jego wzywamy dla naszej broni i zanosimy modły, by nikt, kto służy tej sprawie nie zhańbił jej tchórzostwem, nieludzkością ani grabieżą. W tej wzniosłej godzinie naród irlandzki, przez swoje męstwo i karność i przez gotowość swych dzieci do poświęcenia się za jego sprawę, musi dowieść, że jest wart dostojnego przeznaczenia, do którego jest powołany.
Podpisali w imieniu Rządu Tymczasowego
Thomas J. Clarke,
Sean Mac Diarmada, Thomas MacDonagh,
P. H. Pearse, Eamonn Ceannt,
James Connolly, Joseph Plunkett




爱尔兰共和国___________________________ 临时政府爱尔兰共和国 致爱尔兰人民
爱尔兰的的每一位男士和女士们：以上帝及先烈们所宣扬的旧的民族传统的名义，爱尔兰通过我们来召集她的后代们聚集在她的旗子之下，为她的自由而战。
通过她的秘密组织爱尔兰共和党兄弟会她的刚毅得到了组织和训练，并且通过她的开放军事组织，爱尔兰志愿者和爱尔兰公民军队，她耐心地完善她的纪律， 坚定的等候好的时机以便显露自己。现在她把握这个好的时机，由她被发放至美国的子民们和在欧洲忠勇盟友的支持下，但首先依仗她自己的力量，她以胜利的充分信心发起总攻。
我们宣布爱尔兰人民的权利归属于爱尔兰所有及对爱尔兰命运的自由的控制是独立自主和不能废除的。此权力长期被一外国民族和政府篡夺的状况并没有将此权力毁灭，除了爱尔兰人民的自为毁灭以外无人可毁灭它。爱尔兰人民的每一代一直就维护着他们的民族自由和独立自主的权力；在过去的三百年以内有六次武装行动被得以使用。基于这种基本权利和再一次以武装行动的方式站立在世界面前，我们特此宣告爱尔兰共和国是一个独立自主的国家，我们以我们的生命及我们其他同志们的生命保证它的自由的目标/它的福利/及它的民族的目标。
爱尔兰共和国有权力并特此要求每一位爱尔兰的男士和女士的忠诚。共和党保证宗教和公民自由，给予它的每一位市民以平等权力和平等机会，并且宣布它追求整个国家的幸福和繁荣的决心，平等爱护国家的所有孩童，并且小心谨慎的忘却由一个外国政府所扶植起来的差异部分，这在过去己将少数人从多数人中划分开来。
在我们的武装行动为我们创立一个恰当地建立一个永久国家的时机之前，由爱尔兰的整体人民的代表和由所有她的男士和女士的参政选举，临时政府特以人民的信任来构成并将执行共和国民用和军事事务。
我们将爱尔兰共和国的目的放置于最高的上帝的保护之下。我们祈求它保佑我们武装行动的胜利，我们祈祷我们当中的每一位不会因为懦弱/无人性或有掠夺行为而使我们的目的蒙羞。在此至关重要的时刻，爱尔兰人民必须以它的勇气和纪律及以它的为大众的利益而随时准备牺牲的精神，向世人证明它所称的八月命运的价值所在。
临时政府的签字代表
汤马斯·詹·克拉克（ThomasJ. Clarke）, 肖恩·麦克达马达（SeanMac Diarmada）, 汤马斯·麦克多那（Thomas sMacDonagh）, P. H. 柏思（P. H. Pearse）, 意蒙·圣特（Eamonn Ceannt）, 詹姆斯·科劳里（James Connolly）, 约瑟夫·玛力·布朗克（Joseph Plunkett）

RIALTAS SEALADACH
PHOBLACHT NA hÉIREANN
DO MHUINTIR NA hÉIREANN

A FHEARA AGUS A MHNÁ NA hÉIREANN : In ainm Dé agus in ainm na nglún a chuaigh romhainn agus óna bhfuair sí seanoideas na náisiúntachta, tá Éire, trínne, ag gairm a clainne faoina bratach agus ag bualadh buille ar son a saoirse.
Tar éis di a fir a eagrú agus a oiliúint ina heagraíocht rúnda réabhlóideach, Bráithreachas Phoblacht na hÉireann, agus ina heagraíochtaí míleata poiblí, Óglaigh na hÉireann agus Arm Cathartha na hÉireann, agus tar éis di a riailbhéas a thabhairt go foighneach chun foirfeachta agus feitheamh go buanseasmhach leis an bhfaill chun gnímh, tá sí ag glacadh na faille sin anois, agus, le cabhair óna clainn ar deoraíocht i Meiriceá agus ó chomh-ghuaillithe calma san Eoraip, ach, thar gach ní, le muinín as a neart dílis féin, tá sí ag bualadh buille i ndóchas iomlán go mbéarfaidh sí bua.
Dearbhaímid gur ceart ceannasach dochlóite ceart mhuintir na hÉireann chun seilbh na hÉireann, agus chun dála na hÉireann a stiúradh gan chosc gan cheataí. Níor cuireadh an ceart sin ar ceal leis an bhforghabháil a rinne pobal eachtrannach agus a rialtas air le cian d’aimsir ná ní féidir go brách a chur ar ceal ach trí dhíothú mhuintir na hÉireann. Níl aon ghlúin dá dtáinig nár dhearbhaigh pobal na hÉireann a gceart chun saoirse agus ceannas a náisiúin; sé huaire le trí chéad bliain anuas dhearbhaíodar faoi airm é. Ag seasamh dúinn ar an gceart bunaidh sin agus á dhearbhú arís faoi airm os comhair an tsaoil, fógraímid leis seo Poblacht na hÉireann ina Stát Ceannasach Neamhspleách agus cuirimid ár n-anam féin agus anam ár gcomrádaithe comhraic i ngeall lena saoirse agus lena leas, agus lena móradh i measc na náisiún.
Dlíonn Poblacht na hÉireann, agus éilíonn sí leis seo, géillsine ó mhuintir uile na hÉireann, idir fhir agus mhná. Ráthaíonn an phoblacht saoirse creidimh agus saoirse shibhialta, comhchearta agus comhdheiseanna, dá saoránaigh uile, agus dearbhaíonn sí gurb é a rún séan agus sonas a lorg don náisiún uile agus do gach roinn di, le comhchúram do chlainn uile an náisiúin, agus le neamhairt ar an easaontas a cothaíodh d’aontoisc eatarthu ag rialtas eachtrannach agus lér deighleadh mionlucht ón tromlach san am atá imithe.
Go dtí go dtabharfaidh feidhm ár n-arm an t-ionú dúinn Buan-Rialtas Náisiúnta a bhunú ó theachtaí do phobal uile na hÉireann arna dtoghadh le vótaí a cuid fear agus ban, déanfaidh an Rialtas Sealadach, a bhunaítear leis seo, cúrsaí sibhialta agus míleata na Poblachta a riaradh thar ceann an phobail.
Cuirimid cúis Phoblacht na hÉireann faoi choimirce Dhia Mór na nUile-chumhacht agus impímid A bheannacht ar ár n-airm; iarraimid gan aon duine a bheas ag fónamh sa chúis sin do tharraingt easonóra uirthi le mílaochas, le mídhaonnacht ná le slad. San uair oirbheartach seo is é dualgas náisiún na hÉireann a chruthú, lena misneach agus lena dea-iompar agus le toil a clainne á dtoirbhirt féin ar son na maitheasa poiblí, go dtuilleann sí an réim ró-uasal is dán di.
Arna shíniú thar ceann an Rialtais Shealadaigh,
TOMÁS Ó CLÉIRIGH,
SEÁN MAC DIARMADA, TOMÁS MAC DONNCHADHA,
PÁDRAIC MAC PIARAIS, ÉAMONN CEANNT,
SÉAMUS Ó CONGHAILE, IÓSEPH Ó PLUINGCÉAD

GuanYin

LOL if only I could thank helpdesk posts

My mom would be so cross with me but can I have it in Pīnyīn please?

Hagar

Believe it or not they are on The Taoiseach's official site. The world is gone mad.