The 'RDF' WILL be disbanded

Brian_Uckfast

The single biggest drain on the Defence Forces is the RDF. Talk to most PDF and they will say how they 'hate' the RDF. Often, their logic is unfounded, basing their dislike simply on the hack of half of them, or their generally poor attitude.

However the sentiment is very much similar in the higher echelons of the PDF staff these days. Dont bother asking how I know, but I know, and I couldn't care less if you dont believe me: You dont have to read this post.
I can guarantee that within the next 2 years, the RDF will not exist, apart from perhaps the 1st line reserve (retired PDF, for those of you that dont know), or specially trained 'troops'.

Over €3.2 million was spent on the RDF last year, including ammunition, rations, clothing etc etc.
"And what do the PDF get from this investment?", I hear you politely asking, considering any establishment, apart from charitable organisations, only spends money on the premise of receiving a return.
But what return do the RDF offer? The answer, for the most part, and I mean most, is none. Zero.
An unbeleivable proportion of the 13000, or whatever number, 'serving' RDF members are completely unavailable to do duties in barracks. A very frustrating fact, as everyone in the PDF knows.
As many of you probably know, until recently there was talk of RDF serving overseas alongside PDF. A staggering 11 people were suitable, between being sufficiently trained, time off work etc. So its been scrapped. Hardly surprising.

"But what about the integration of the RDF??", I hear you retort, mumbling, as you clench your fist, staring at your screen. "We can integrate, and make ourselves much more useful, thereby somewhat improving the unjust ratio of capital spent to return value!".
Well, no...sorry. Nearly 3000 RDF members were to become integrated. The sad reality was 300.
By anyone's standards, a total failure. The means were provided by the PDF for the 3000 to integrate, but yet again, the RDF prove poor value for money, as they themselves prevent succesful integration.

2 weekends ago, 72 RDF members were competing in some orienteering in the DFTC, or somewhere. The PDF provided rations (breakfast & lunch) for these 72 fitness enthusiasts, but 6 turned up. I cannot begin to explain how frustrating that is.

The majority of the time I try to get some new gear in stores, because mine is torn from doing my job that I am paid to do, they dont have pants in my size. So I have to go without. Fair enough, yeah?
No. Not when I see 2 RDF members pissed on halloween night outside Supermacs at 3am wearing camo cream and full uniform.

I am aware that there are some RDF members who take their hobby seriously, and mightn't fall into these catagories, however that is completely irrelevant.
Especiall in these harsh times where everyone is watching their spending, including the COS (and hence, the Minister of Defence), the RDF is the biggest annoyance of today's Defence Forces.
With the imminent closure of more barracks' in the near future, I can guarantee you all that the RDF will cease to exist as you know it.
And good riddance (I am speaking purely financially, so dont take it personally people).

If any of you want to dispute this, please do so by offering examples or evidence of how the money spent on the RDF is beneficial to the organisation, NOT by crappy one-liners stating that the "PDF are all assholes", or something equally retarded.

Thanks

minidazzler

RDF only cost around 10 million all together last year. And that includes everything. That was only .1% of last years budget. Not bad IMO.

Alot of RDF Unit's do Barrack Duties for PDF. I myself did 4 weeks last year in Glen doing Duties for the 1st Regt. Along with a good few other people.

Where are you getting this most "Hate" the RDF from? I would think Most just don't give 2 sh1ts about the RDF.

Integration was designed to fail. It was not sufficiantly advertised in the first year, in the second year I heard nothing about it. In the Third year it was disbanded. This can be put down to the Integrated personnell not Pimping it as much as they should have. There was also a large Anti-Integration "Mafia" within the RDF itself, mostly the lads who just couldn't do it because of Location.

For the Overseas, 11 people out of 300 really because it was Integrated Personell only. We were just coming into Recession Stephen, who wanted to be asking for a year off? And the criteria was VERY Specific, Alot of people just didn't qualify for how specific it was.

In reality there are only 3500-5000 serving RDF Personnell. This 13000 number is just utter trash, it hasn't been that high in years.

The Biggest single waste of money is not the RDF itself, it's the buildings that they rent out.

It's not the PDF who should get returns on the RDF, it's the DOD.

The Orienteering thing, did that really happen??? That's just alot of people being stupid. But tell me, is there not ~72 people in the Whole RDF Orienteering League? Or did they all say they would definitely be there and just not show? There are probably only 72 in the whole League and they just had food ready for all, but noone showed.

There are Cutbacks everywhere in the DF, of course people are going to look to the RDF, We are an easy target, but we are not to blame for most of the Problems with the DF.


But I agree, within 4 years the RDF will be gone.

concussion

The problem isn't reluctance on the part of reservists, the military authorities simply don't know what to do with us.
As minidazzler has quite concisely countered most of your points I'll just make a quick note about guard duties - I've been in 5 years and I have NEVER turned down a duty. In this time, outside full time training I have done a total of three guard duties - that kinda sums it up for me.
Your figures are wrong aswell, don't ask me how I know, I just do and I don't care if you don't believe me, you don't have to read this post.
BTW, the biggest drain on the Defence Forces is pay and pensions, like most government departments.

Bam Bam

Brian_Uckfast wrote: »

The single biggest drain on the Defence Forces is the RDF. Talk to most PDF and they will say how they 'hate' the RDF. Often, their logic is unfounded, basing their dislike simply on the hack of half of them, or their generally poor attitude.

However the sentiment is very much similar in the higher echelons of the PDF staff these days. Dont bother asking how I know, but I know, and I couldn't care less if you dont believe me: You dont have to read this post.
I can guarantee that within the next 2 years, the RDF will not exist, apart from perhaps the 1st line reserve (retired PDF, for those of you that dont know), or specially trained 'troops'.

Over €3.2 million was spent on the RDF last year, including ammunition, rations, clothing etc etc.
"And what do the PDF get from this investment?", I hear you politely asking, considering any establishment, apart from charitable organisations, only spends money on the premise of receiving a return.
But what return do the RDF offer? The answer, for the most part, and I mean most, is none. Zero.
An unbeleivable proportion of the 13000, or whatever number, 'serving' RDF members are completely unavailable to do duties in barracks. A very frustrating fact, as everyone in the PDF knows.
As many of you probably know, until recently there was talk of RDF serving overseas alongside PDF. A staggering 11 people were suitable, between being sufficiently trained, time off work etc. So its been scrapped. Hardly surprising.

"But what about the integration of the RDF??", I hear you retort, mumbling, as you clench your fist, staring at your screen. "We can integrate, and make ourselves much more useful, thereby somewhat improving the unjust ratio of capital spent to return value!".
Well, no...sorry. Nearly 3000 RDF members were to become integrated. The sad reality was 300.
By anyone's standards, a total failure. The means were provided by the PDF for the 3000 to integrate, but yet again, the RDF prove poor value for money, as they themselves prevent succesful integration.

2 weekends ago, 72 RDF members were competing in some orienteering in the DFTC, or somewhere. The PDF provided rations (breakfast & lunch) for these 72 fitness enthusiasts, but 6 turned up. I cannot begin to explain how frustrating that is.

The majority of the time I try to get some new gear in stores, because mine is torn from doing my job that I am paid to do, they dont have pants in my size. So I have to go without. Fair enough, yeah?
No. Not when I see 2 RDF members pissed on halloween night outside Supermacs at 3am wearing camo cream and full uniform.

I am aware that there are some RDF members who take their hobby seriously, and mightn't fall into these catagories, however that is completely irrelevant.
Especiall in these harsh times where everyone is watching their spending, including the COS (and hence, the Minister of Defence), the RDF is the biggest annoyance of today's Defence Forces.
With the imminent closure of more barracks' in the near future, I can guarantee you all that the RDF will cease to exist as you know it.
And good riddance (I am speaking purely financially, so dont take it personally people).

If any of you want to dispute this, please do so by offering examples or evidence of how the money spent on the RDF is beneficial to the organisation, NOT by crappy one-liners stating that the "PDF are all assholes", or something equally retarded.

Thanks

Brilliant, very funny

I heard that the PDF is going on hiatus from 2010 to 2012 to ensure savings of close to €2 billion euro. All barrack gates shut, lights turned off and toilet seats down. Only barrack guards will remain in operation to ensure properties aren't trashed in the two year period. Dont bother asking how I know, but I know, and I couldn't care less if you dont believe me.

goldie fish

I wouldn't be so quick to smile bam bam.

Latchy

I remember the pre RDF days, when the PDF was nearly 15,000 strong and due to security demands at the time ie, bank details ,border security etc , it was not uncommon for some of us in one week to do two 24 hr gaurd duties on top of several early morning escorts .But it seemed to be the same guys who got caught all the time for these duties and something I hated about my service in the Defence forces .It was no wonder then so many ....all ranks , left the IDF when they did .There was no proper balance when it came to doing duties and then you had to wait many months to actually get paid for those duties . The demand for troops to the Lebanon didn't help that balance either .But that was then and times have indeed changed so much .

bunny shooter

RDF in it's current form is going to be gone soon I do agree.

But, PDF in it's current form might not be far behind it :eek: why do we need so many full-time soldiers? We are a "non aligned" small country. Why do we need such a large "standing army"? Overseas? Why are we sending our troops overseas? Waste of tax payers money IMO.

Close all the barracks except for the Curragh and save the country a bloody fortune :mad:

Poccington

bunny shooter wrote: »

RDF in it's current form is going to be gone soon I do agree.

But, PDF in it's current form might not be far behind it :eek: why do we need so many full-time soldiers? We are a "non aligned" small country. Why do we need such a large "standing army"? Overseas? Why are we sending our troops overseas? Waste of tax payers money IMO.

Close all the barracks except for the Curragh and save the country a bloody fortune :mad:

The PDF won't be going anywhere.

greenarrow

This is a rather useless thread.

The DF spend 1% of its budget annually on the reserves. That is the expenditure.

The representation of return from this is that the vast majority of this money is spent on infantry. Which is an area that the DoD is not short on.

The DF should consider a radical overhaul of where this investment goes and be looking to promote the corps units in the RDF in my opinion. Simply because:

(a) It would represent investment in an area that the DF is short of for personnel
(b) These soldiers could fulfil roles in an overseas capacity that is suitable to the standard of training that they have received
(c) In some cases, reservists from corps units are better suited to the functional role than their PDF counterparts (engineers, communications technicians etc) and to say otherwise is being blindsided.
The only drawback there would be they would be unwilling to get the time off work (and legislation for job protection) and would in all fairness not be willing to take a pay cut in most cases too.
Some of these guys would be on 6 figure salaries too.


If the DF wanted to get a better return for its investment in the RDF, then the DF should be investing in the RDF in areas where it would be more likely to benefit from and be more likely to see a return on its investment.
"Plugging the gaps" so to speak in areas where we are short on suitable personnel.

If the DF invested better in the RDF then it would get a better return for its investment. As things currently stand it doesn't, and that is unlikely to change.
All this talk at the moment of the RDF being disbanded is nonsense. What is more likely to happen is that the investment put into it is going to have to show itself to be more worthwhile.
Corps units are smaller and can offer a better option than infantry units to the DF in the long run. And with the current economic climate, there may just be suitable personnel available to the DF for such roles.

In my opinion

Poccington wrote: »

The PDF won't be going anywhere.

Not quite true. A good few soldiers will be moved. Clonmel, and Mullingar are going very soon.

Lets look at the RDF spending the reality is too many PDF are getting RDF allowances, only a Sgt and a CQ are required in each company under the new set up aptly named RDFRIP.

How many in Wexford, Castlebar, Tralee for example all SWA. Return them to mother unit and look at removing letters of comfort from all SWA.

In Longford, Cavan, Lifford and Rockhill RDF officers did OO every weekend until last June. when powers that be decided that it was no longer necessary.

testicle

Mullingar's not going anywhere. 4 FAR won't fit anywhere else. Only split unit locations will be closing.

Manic Moran

I can guarantee that within the next 2 years, the RDF will not exist, apart from perhaps the 1st line reserve (retired PDF, for those of you that dont know), or specially trained 'troops'.

As another man has said, the RDF needs to be given some teeth. Mandatory employment protection, pay for all training completed, accountability and responsibility for the leadership, and a proper subjection to Army standards of discipline and training. I am unaware of any Western military reserve organisation which is as 'loose' as the RDF.

Now, exactly why the RDF was never turned into a more professional organisation is either the fault of the goverments, or of the seniors of the PDF who may be worried about being shown up by the amateurs.

NTM

arybvtcw0eolkf

Brian_Uckfast wrote: »

The single biggest drain on the Defence Forces is the RDF. Talk to most PDF and they will say how they 'hate' the RDF. Often, their logic is unfounded, basing their dislike simply on the hack of half of them, or their generally poor attitude.

After this it was hard to read the rest, so I'll come back to it tomorrow.

But I'd like to point out here and now that in 25yrs service I don't think I've ever heard anyone in the PDF say they "hate the RDF".

As for their "generally poor attitude" - on the whole I've found it superior to a sizable portion of the PDF's.

I'll read the rest and address it tomorrow.

.

bunny shooter

Poccington wrote: »

The PDF won't be going anywhere.

Do you really think overseas is finished?

userfriendly2

IMO, the reserves don't have any 'real' function in todays society and at the moment we are just draining taxpayers money!, but this is not our fault.

If you really want to save money implement major cutbacks within the PDF and use the RDF to fill the gaps.

Just think about this for a second.

If the RDF were given job security, meaning we could volunteer for military duties as often as possible without the risk of losing our jobs, then we could take on security roles and do more cash escorts.. There wouldn't be a demand for as many PDF personnell. Also if the goverment made it compulsary that our civvie employers paid us 50% of our daily wages while we were on 'active duty' then the DF wouldn't have to pay us the full amount either.

We don't need soldiers going oversea's getting 8 months pay for 4 months work. The RDF don't even GET THE CHANCE to drain that much money from the people of Ireland..

Don't get me wrong i do agree that we are a waste of money but i think that if the goverment were smart they would come up with a plan that would eventually replace the PDF with the less paid volunteers. Im not saying that we can do everything they can but my point is they don't need to be able to do half the stuff they do anyway.

And just to give you an idea of how much money we drain: I was on the guard of honour on o'connell st. last sunday with mary, brian and willie:D and as you may know it was a 100 man guard of honour(the RDF part). We each got about 200 euro for that weekend. Do the math. NCO's + OFFICERS took home more than that. All in All there was about 160 RDF personnell involved, I work it out as around the 25k. There were also 200 PDF present and the aircore with there pointless fly-by.

bunny shooter

This whole protection of employment is a myth. A lot of employers would refuse to take on reservists if this came in IMO. And with the current employment situation it would be easy for employers to be selective.

I know lads in UK who were in TA during 1st Gulf War and were sent to Iraq, they were ex regulars and in the TA and had "specialist" skills that were needed like linguists, signallers etc and when they came home their jobs were gone :eek:

Hard Larry

userfriendly2 wrote: »

IMO, the reserves don't have any 'real' function in todays society and at the moment we are just draining taxpayers money!, but this is not our fault.

If you really want to save money implement major cutbacks within the PDF and use the RDF to fill the gaps.

Just think about this for a second.

If the RDF were given job security, meaning we could volunteer for military duties as often as possible without the risk of losing our jobs, then we could take on security roles and do more cash escorts.. There wouldn't be a demand for as many PDF personnell. Also if the goverment made it compulsary that our civvie employers paid us 50% of our daily wages while we were on 'active duty' then the DF wouldn't have to pay us the full amount either.

We don't need soldiers going oversea's getting 8 months pay for 4 months work. The RDF don't even GET THE CHANCE to drain that much money from the people of Ireland..

Don't get me wrong i do agree that we are a waste of money but i think that if the goverment were smart they would come up with a plan that would eventually replace the PDF with the less paid volunteers. Im not saying that we can do everything they can but my point is they don't need to be able to do half the stuff they do anyway.

And just to give you an idea of how much money we drain: I was on the guard of honour on o'connell st. last sunday with mary, brian and willie:D and as you may know it was a 100 man guard of honour(the RDF part). We each got about 200 euro for that weekend. Do the math. NCO's + OFFICERS took home more than that. All in All there was about 160 RDF personnell involved, I work it out as around the 25k. There were also 200 PDF present and the aircore with there pointless fly-by.

Its been a long time since I was in the FCA but (I'm open to correction here) if a soldier doesn't turn up for a parade night is he marked absent and a AF120 put on the gate? Is absence dealt with in the RDF as harshly as its is in the Army?

When the novelty of these duties that you want to volunteer for wear off and the young lads, approx age I'm guessing 16-19, decide not to bother turning up for them as they have better things to do with their time or they get offered Overtime in a civvie job or just don't fancy standing on the beat for 8 hours while some fat ass Corporal (who thinks he's Gunny Heighway for the next 24hrs) flicks through all the TV channels and rolls snot into the apolstery....what happens then?

8 months pay for 4 months work....hmm well yeah it is...but its 4 months work in a Desert surrounded by bugs, big bugs and in these 4 months you don't go home to see the wife and kids when it gets to dinner time. Its 24/7 baby. Theres also a high possibility that someone will shoot at you or at least in your general direction. And God forbid if those people get you on your own away from the rest of your friendly forces.
You make it sound like a week in the Glen....at least theres a shop down the road from Coolmooney camp and once in a blue moon a chip van might show up.

And this isn't the only post I've seen people saying "the RDF can/will fill the gaps"....

what bleedin gaps?

bunny shooter

As ever, Hard Larry comes in with some common sense :cool:

Well said !

Just for the record if RDF don't appear for training there is no comeback on them.

Minimum age for armed duties is 18 & 3* and 17 to enlist, but that's on hold for RDF now too.

cork1

i think that before they disband the rdf if they are going to they should try making it completly volountary. i mean no pay and aswell anyone who hasnt shown up recently take them off the books and demand and uniform or any other dod equipment back. that soon weeds out the messers and you would have a more serious group of people. also why do we need such a large pdf? why not keep a certain number in the pdf and make the rest first line reserve. then give them the opertunity to go oversea and just have an intensive training program for a few months before they go. lots of people are telling us why we to disband the rdf and that were messers and unfit and im not argueing with that but what about the pdf? shouldnt they make huge cutbacks too?

Local-womanizer

If they tightend up on the RDF with everything basically,surely it would improve the overall standard of the organization?Iam not saying make it as strict as the PDF but up the level of disipline.

I know plenty of people who would stay in even if the standard levels improved.But I suppose the big problem is with people in work and how to get around that.

I cant comment on what the RDF could do instead of the PDF because I dont know what the PDF do exactly and what level of training/commitiment is needed.

But it seems people are pointing fingers at the moment when it comes to cutbacks.I know I am pointing my fingers at them tw@ts in the Dail who have run this country into the ground over the last decade yet they seem to be the only ones to be untouched by the economic downturn.But this is not the Politics forum so less of that;)

Tribunius

Will people stop suggesting that we downsize/disband the PDF its starting to get annoying. They are small enough as it is for what they have to do.

Also there is no way a bunch of amateurs (well meaning as they may be) can carry out the job of a professional. They can't even get close with the current standard of training and discipline.

In my personal experience even the likes of guard duties are beyond some.

Bam Bam

Tribunius wrote: »

Will people stop suggesting that we downsize/disband the PDF its starting to get annoying. They are small enough as it is for what they have to do.

Also there is no way a bunch of amateurs (well meaning as they may be) can carry out the job of a professional. They can't even get close with the current standard of training and discipline.

In my personal experience even the likes of guard duties are beyond some.

To be fair the job of a "professional" soldier isn't that difficult and can easily be done by an "amateur" reservist. In fact let the amateur develop enough experience and you'll find they may do it better.

Current standards of training and discipline vary from person to person, both PDF and RDF. I've met a few PDF and RDF lads that I wouldn't trust with a pen let alone a rifle.

Just because you see yourself as a professional doesn't mean you're better.

Hard Larry

Tribunius wrote: »

Will people stop suggesting that we downsize/disband the PDF its starting to get annoying

Here Here

This goes for the RDF too

Just cause some bloke comes on the internet and tells you the sky is gonna fall down doesn't mean its going to happen.

Until you see Willie O'Dea on the 6.1 news telling the Dail that there will be cutbacks in the DF then everything else is bolloxology of the highest order.

Bam Bam wrote: »

To be fair the job of a "professional" soldier isn't that difficult and can easily be done by an "amateur" reservist. In fact let the amateur develop enough experience and you'll find they may do it better.

Current standards of training and discipline vary from person to person, both PDF and RDF. I've met a few PDF and RDF lads that I wouldn't trust with a pen let alone a rifle.

Just because you see yourself as a professional doesn't mean you're better.

Nice one PM me your mobile number I'll give you a bell the next time my MOWAG breaks down in the back arse of Kosovo. You can deal with it.

Tribunius

First off I do not intend to single anyone out. I am only speaking of an organisation as a whole.

Bam Bam wrote: »

To be fair the job of a "professional" soldier isn't that difficult and can easily be done by an "amateur" reservist. In fact let the amateur develop enough experience and you'll find they may do it better.

Indeed day to day in country operations are not that difficult not in comparison to other jobs. Depending of course of what you consider difficult. However overseas and under pressure that's when a professional comes to the fore. You are correct given enough time to build that experience an amateur can indeed do better than a professional. But answer me this how long will that take?

Bam Bam wrote: »

Current standards of training and discipline vary from person to person, both PDF and RDF. I've met a few PDF and RDF lads that I wouldn't trust with a pen let alone a rifle.

Not quite true. Current standards of training are uniform across the pdf not so in the rdf. Discipline does indeed vary from person to person but that variance is much smaller in the PDF.

Bam Bam wrote: »

Just because you see yourself as a professional doesn't mean you're better.

Its not a matter of seeing yourself as professional or not. You either are or your not. I think they put it well in 300

see link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IReMfvamQ28&feature=related

Manic Moran

bunny shooter wrote: »

This whole protection of employment is a myth. A lot of employers would refuse to take on reservists if this came in IMO. And with the current employment situation it would be easy for employers to be selective.

I know lads in UK who were in TA during 1st Gulf War and were sent to Iraq, they were ex regulars and in the TA and had "specialist" skills that were needed like linguists, signallers etc and when they came home their jobs were gone :eek:

It seems that the employment protection legislation in the UK has a few holes in it, then. A number of US employers have found the hard way that it's bad ju-ju to screw a reservist given the legal onus upon them to prove that the position was no longer available.

The employment protections laws seem to do a fair job in the US. Of course, it's not infallable. Yes, there are employers who will prefer to look against a reservist. I'm fairly sure I've lost out on a job for it myself. On the other hand, there are also employers who like the idea of getting a guy in from the street with proven discipline, teamwork and leadership capability, I'm fairly sure I've gained two of my jobs because of my reservist background. Think about it, if they have two people off the street, both with similar civilian resumes, but mine also says 'Company commander of a cavalry troop, approx 120 men,' that likely says something about my additional training and perceived capability by those higher than me.

i think that before they disband the rdf if they are going to they should try making it completly volountary. i mean no pay and aswell anyone who hasnt shown up recently take them off the books and demand and uniform or any other dod equipment back. that soon weeds out the messers and you would have a more serious group of people

Wrong route entirely. Professionalise the force. Give them an honest day's pay for an honest day's work, give them the legal protections to allow them to go to the duty, and hold them accountable for doing so. There will be no more excuses 'Ah, I couldn't get the time off work', anyone who does so without real cause gets booted out. Fail to meet the desired standards, and leave. This requires a certain amount of dedication and aforethought, and that will get you your more serious group of people.

Iam not saying make it as strict as the PDF.

Why not? If you're going to soldier, act like one. Is there a different standard of marksmanship in the manual for an RDF soldier to a PDF one? Is there one that says "A male 21-year old PDF soldier must be able to do the 2-mile-run in 16 minutes, but an RDF soldier gets 17 minutes? Will an enemy go easier on a reservist because he's a reservist? (Arguably, he may focus on them, believing them to be an easier target) Why should the RDF not have the same levels of discipline as the PDF? It works for me.

know plenty of people who would stay in even if the standard levels improved

"Even if!?" Dude, you want people who stay in because the standards improve. They may not be full-time, but that does not mean they cannot be as professional or dedicated as their full-time counterpart. (Indeed, they probably should be more dedicated, they're holding down a second job)

Nice one PM me your mobile number I'll give you a bell the next time my MOWAG breaks down in the back arse of Kosovo. You can deal with it.

In fairness, I'm sure there are a number of RDF personnel who would love to be allowed to do so.

NTM

Morpheus

RDF can never replace PDF. Im RDF and thats my opinion, standards ARE lower in the RDF, but in reality whos fault is that?

its the DOD and the army in general - a complete re-think and redesign of the reserve approach is needed, the re-org was a half measure, half a half measure. They should have ripped up the plan and created a new one.


Discipline is not as strict in the RDF - easily fixed but will probably alienate some people who dont like discipline .... is that REALLY a bad thing in a military organisation? dont like discipline then go join the samaritans.

Training standards are lower in general - could this be to do with the current training time allocated to units? an outdated method of 2 hours once a week and sometimes a weekend a month followed by 1 week in the summer? laughable.

I for one would love to see the above items targeted and eliminated.

The RDF can do A LOT more and without increasing current resources, every scrap and ounce of ability and worth should be squeezed out of us, we SHOULD be more accountable but we're not.

For example: I can contact my NCO's at 630 on training night and say im staying late in work. They have to take that at face value and have no comeback on me. Now arguably I DO have to stay late and miss out on some training nights but thats life. however I also know for a FACT that some use the above as an excuse and dont turn up as they're meeting the woman or on the beer or [insert appropriate crap excuse here] but how do we get around this? Answer ACCOuNTABILITY AND DISCIPLINARY PROCEDURE within reason. There must be some way for a member to prove they are where they are or doing what theyre doing or else they should just be told if they cannot commit to 2 hrs once a week they should reconsider
why they joined.


Some form of a more strict accountability FOR ALL ACTIONS IN UNIFORM AND ATTENDANCE AND PERSONAL FITNESS STANDARDS needs to be implemented - one that is in line with what is expected by a PDF unit.

We should encourage more competition between companies and even battalions, in my case Infantry? ACT LIKE IT - get fit, run hard, play harder, work hardest.
Increase the types of competitions to include and indeed promote as the main focus fitness, battle drills, forced marches et. The current idea of promoting marksmanship, while vital to infantry,is misguided. honestly, who gives a single sh*te that some fat corporal or private can run 25m and lie down and knock over a couple of plates at 200m? if we need a fat sniper fine, but we dont need 30 fat soldiers who have 25m worth of sprinting in them while in a platoon attack.

Grab a PDF PTL or PTI (or get the RDF lads fully trained) Start with fitness standards, its cheap and accessible, work your way up to increasing load carrying, encourage and demand external personal fitness regimes and memberships of sporting organisations and clubs (i dont mean lawn bowling) all of these things are non cost prohibitive and demand extra effort and personal determination from individuals in a unit.

THEN reward the soldier with tough, hard, training drills and prep them with proper battle drills ... oh lord I could go on, my point is instead of saying we are crap and a waste of resources, work with what you have and push us and force us to get fitter and stronger and weed out the deadwood and shake the whole bloody thing from the ground up. then see where we are before talking of disbanding a useless organisation completely.

These are just some crap useless thoughts and only the tip of an iceberg but I honestly dont think the RDF is the drain on PDF resources that some consider it to be... plus who would you grumble about if there was no RDF to blame?

Hard Larry

Manic Moran wrote: »

Why should the RDF not have the same levels of discipline as the PDF?

Don't you have some sort of Global War on Terror to deal with at the moment

That quote is the problem with all these arguments that are on this board about the difference Irish Army and Reserve. Until the RDF can match the discipline of the Army then IMO any comparisson between the 2 is pointless. Its up to those in command in the RDF (both Officers and NCOs)
to instill discipline, but we all know if the boot went in on any given parade night then the next weeks numbers would be fairly thin, and the week after that and the week after that.

If the Army was axed tomorrow and a force of Reservists was put in place to carry out its job, who the would train everyone? what employer will give an employee 8-10 weeks off to complete a career course? what employer would be delighted at the prospect of losing one of his employees for 7 months?

Why bother making any of these great plans about the RDF can do this or that for the Army. The RDF is in 'RESERVE' (oh I c wat dey did thar:eek:) until it is needed it carries on with the training days its allotted. Its what the people in the organisation choose to do with this time is the problem.

If Ireland was lucky/unlucky enough to have a huge Defence budget and resources were there when needed then we wouldn't be even discussing this. Unfortunatly times are hard and Defence for this country is a soft target for the guy with scissors. For the love of God this country even made cuts in Defence at the start of a boom period.

In short don't believe everything you read or hear, it may never happen...but if you're like me then you'll be digging in and preparing for the worst;)

Manic Moran wrote: »

In fairness, I'm sure there are a number of RDF personnel who would love to be allowed to do so.

As I'm sure your fully aware MM lying in a pool of mud under an Armoured Vehicle with coolant/oil/diesel dripping on your face while you cut your fingers on jagged metal has a way of draining 'love' from any mans Soul

Morpheus

I also meant to say that disbanding or downsizing the PDF is definitely NOT the way to go. without the pros showing the way the not so pros wouldnt exist.

Local-womanizer

Manic Moran wrote: »

Fail to meet the desired standards, and leave. This requires a certain amount of dedication and aforethought, and that will get you your more serious group of people.

Why not? If you're going to soldier, act like one.

"Even if!?" Dude, you want people who stay in because the standards improve. They may not be full-time, but that does not mean they cannot be as professional or dedicated as their full-time counterpart. (Indeed, they probably should be more dedicated, they're holding down a second job)

In fairness, I'm sure there are a number of RDF personnel who would love to be allowed to do so.

I do agree with your points but the problem,as Hard Larry pointed out would be the numbers would drop drastically.The same would go for the fitness unfortunatly.I know in the long run this would improve standerds but numbers could get so bad that the goverment could just get rid of the RDF.

At the end of the day they are soliders,and as you said should act and be treated as such.

Hard Larry wrote: »

Why bother making any of these great plans about the RDF can do this or that for the Army. The RDF is in 'RESERVE' (oh I c wat dey did thar:eek:) until it is needed it carries on with the training days its allotted. Its what the people in the organisation choose to do with this time is the problem

If we where made accountable and where trained better you already have highly dedicated individuals in place who take on more responsiblilty.At the moment I wouldent dream of taking over from the PDF as they put in alot of time and hard graft to get where they are,we havent.And we are not there to be compared,we are there to work together!

arybvtcw0eolkf

userfriendly2 wrote: »

If you really want to save money implement major cutbacks within the PDF and use the RDF to fill the gaps.

Just think about this for a second.

If the RDF were given job security, meaning we could volunteer for military duties as often as possible without the risk of losing our jobs, then we could take on security roles and do more cash escorts.. There wouldn't be a demand for as many PDF personnell.

Let me get this straight, you want a part time organisation to do a full time professional job?.

.

Hard Larry

Just on a side note.

If the Army was re-organised into a Reserve Defence Forces and we all became one big part time family without pay...

That means as a member of the current Permanent Defence Forces my courses and Overseas experience would make me an asset to the organisation. Putting any/all members of the former Permanent Defence Forces a step up on the food chain above current Reseve Defence Force personnel.

And to top it all I wouldn't be dropping my standards...so the boot would go in and Military Discipline would prevail.

I don't think a lot of people have thought this through. You would be directly answerable to my size 10 Haix...and many others.

Although I get a weekly wage, I didn't join the Army for the pay. If it all ended tomorrow you can bet your ass I'd be volunteering for some sort of Reserve Force

Muppet Man

Over €3.2 million was spent on the RDF last year, including ammunition, rations, clothing etc etc

Also read about 10 million euro... so not sure of the exact number, but its NOT a whole lot of money in the grand scheme of things. So based on those numbers I wouldnt agree that the RDF will be disbanded.

However, as pointed out above by several posters, IMHO, the PDF work can not be successfully completed by part timers. Additionally I'm not entirely certain that the PDF work NEEDS to be completed by part timers. It seems the RDF are making work / roles for themselves in order to justify their existence.

With that approach, someone somwhere sometime soon will ask... "if the RDF ceased to exist today, right now... this second, what would be the immediate impact to Ireland and its PDF force... how would/could we adapt, and how quickly could we move on"....

Based on that line of thought, I believe the RDF will - in its current form at least - be disbanded soon enough.

Muppet Man (a reservist).

Morpheus

"if the RDF ceased to exist today, right now... this second, what would be the immediate impact to Ireland and its PDF force... how would/could we adapt, and how quickly could we move on"....

:eek:

what WOULD happen though? seriously, that statement is worthy of debate within its own thread.

I foresee a terrible lonely future for the walts, a massive increase in applicants for the PDF, Irish regiments in the BA and the Foreign Legion! not to mention a goliath surge in numbers playing paintball and airsoft in Irish DPMs :rolleyes:

plus, what would the officers do without their tea and biscuits not to mention removal of stores from CQ's - a lot of older NCOs and officers would end up in mental institutions!! Lord knows how many mass murders and marriage breakups that membership of the FCA/RDF has prevented down through the years

Poccington

userfriendly2 wrote: »

IMO, the reserves don't have any 'real' function in todays society and at the moment we are just draining taxpayers money!, but this is not our fault.

If you really want to save money implement major cutbacks within the PDF and use the RDF to fill the gaps.

Just think about this for a second.

If the RDF were given job security, meaning we could volunteer for military duties as often as possible without the risk of losing our jobs, then we could take on security roles and do more cash escorts.. There wouldn't be a demand for as many PDF personnell. Also if the goverment made it compulsary that our civvie employers paid us 50% of our daily wages while we were on 'active duty' then the DF wouldn't have to pay us the full amount either.

We don't need soldiers going oversea's getting 8 months pay for 4 months work. The RDF don't even GET THE CHANCE to drain that much money from the people of Ireland..

Don't get me wrong i do agree that we are a waste of money but i think that if the goverment were smart they would come up with a plan that would eventually replace the PDF with the less paid volunteers. Im not saying that we can do everything they can but my point is they don't need to be able to do half the stuff they do anyway.

And just to give you an idea of how much money we drain: I was on the guard of honour on o'connell st. last sunday with mary, brian and willie:D and as you may know it was a 100 man guard of honour(the RDF part). We each got about 200 euro for that weekend. Do the math. NCO's + OFFICERS took home more than that. All in All there was about 160 RDF personnell involved, I work it out as around the 25k. There were also 200 PDF present and the aircore with there pointless fly-by.

So... In order to try justify the RDF in it's current form, you think the whole PDF should be disbanded?

Also going by your logic, if the PDF doesn't need to do half the stuff we do, well then you don't need to do any of the stuff you do.

greenarrow

To support/correct Hard Larry's statement about the DF making cuts and so on during the boom times. He seems to have overlooked the fact that the DF had to pay almost £1 billion (punts) in compensation to various soldiers for deafness claims and that the cuts were necessary because the exchequer wouldn't bail out the DoD and the money had to be found somewhere.

Since there was a property boom on at the time, the DoD got a good price for the land and barracks' that were sold.

But I would agree that the DF seems to be a first option for cuts every time. The RDF is not a drain on the DF budget in any way actually.

This is because :

1. There is no expenditure in a budget for advertising spent on the reserve.
2. A reservist is only allocated a basic clothing allowance (and is not a drain on resources because of this)
3. Reservist all train (largely) during a set period every year. So rations are bought in bulk to cater for this. Which is cheaper than buying them weekly.
4. Reservist are only paid for FTT (so the vast majority of their training doesn't drain the salaries budget)
5. Reservist don't receive tech-pay


All this talk of people having a go at the RDF is nonsense. They are not a drain on the resources of the DoD, and if you looked into where the money spent on the reserves goes you would actually be impressed that it is able to stretch as far as it does.
The reason for that is because a lot of things that go on in the RDF are done on a voluntary basis.
So while there may be an expenditure for feeding troops, there isn't one for paying them most of the time.


If people want to come on here and speak about what is a drain ont he resources of the defence budget, then go and have a go at where money is wasted in the PDF.
How about camp staff in the Glen? That only requires a CQ when you really look at it.
That's just an example off the top of my head. I do hate when people who claim to be "professionals" indulge ina spot of bag-bashing. Especially when the vast majority have no experience or knowledge of the organisation other than hear say.

I have never been in the FCA or RDF, but I think it does serve a role and function. But in my opinion it does need to be restructured and reimagined at the same time. There is something there to be worked with, but it is up to the PDF to get in there and help them out. I know a lot of people who are PDF now, and they all say that they would love to go back to their former units and bring their PDF experience back to those units to bring the unit forward and help it advance.

What's wrong with that I ask? I think the PDF should be making our experience and resources more readily available to the RDF if wanted and needed.

concussion

Hard Larry wrote: »

Its been a long time since I was in the FCA but (I'm open to correction here) if a soldier doesn't turn up for a parade night is he marked absent and a AF120 put on the gate? Is absence dealt with in the RDF as harshly as its is in the Army?

No, but it would be a great fcukin start on the road toward proper discipline and professionalism. I would love to see some proper standards being set and attained by a small fraction than have the current lot moping about.

Hard Larry

greenarrow wrote: »

I think the PDF should be making our experience and resources more readily available to the RDF if wanted and needed.

Nice post Greenarrow.

Being honest in my day to day job the RDF is inconsequential to many in the Army and it seems most of my time on these boards are devoted to the subject. My heart does go out to those who want to serve or do their bit but are held back by the incompetence of the powers that be in their respective units.

The Army is not an asset of the RDF...the RDF is the asset of the Army.

However that aside if a nicely drafted letter was sent by your Coy Comd or Cadre staff to your parent Army unit then instructor assistance would be made available (except in the case of Duties and Exercises) and speaking from my point of view in Eastern Brigade units junior NCOs would be queing up to lend you a dig out. Allowance or no allowance.

But its getting that letter drafted up thats the kick in the balls.

EDIT thats not a dig at all cadre staff some RDF units are blessed with the lads they have....others of course are not so lucky

Manic Moran

It seems to me that a lot of the arguments about the RDF suffering an utter lack of numbers are exactly the same as which apply to the reserves here in the US. (Except instead of being gone for 7 months, employers have to worry about their guys being gone for over a year at a time). We have high discipline, we go to war zones, if people don't show up when they're supposed to, I have bench warrants issued for their arrest. Yet, despite all this, I still have more people trying to get into my unit than I have places for them. Maybe some of the numbers need to be diluted a bit, instead of having a mirror unit for basically every PDF unit (i.e. an entire RDF brigade per PDF Brigade) they need to be spread out a little more (Maybe one RDF brigade in the whole country), depending on what the levels of demand are, but if a proper risk/reward balance is maintained, I see no reason why there should not still be sufficient applicants to make some form of RDF a feasible concept.

NTM

concussion

Manic Moran wrote: »

It seems to me that a lot of the arguments about the RDF suffering an utter lack of numbers are exactly the same as which apply to the reserves here in the US. (Except instead of being gone for 7 months, employers have to worry about their guys being gone for over a year at a time). We have high discipline, we go to war zones, if people don't show up when they're supposed to, I have bench warrants issued for their arrest. Yet, despite all this, I still have more people trying to get into my unit than I have places for them. Maybe some of the numbers need to be diluted a bit, instead of having a mirror unit for basically every PDF unit (i.e. an entire RDF brigade per PDF Brigade) they need to be spread out a little more (Maybe one RDF brigade in the whole country), depending on what the levels of demand are, but if a proper risk/reward balance is maintained, I see no reason why there should not still be sufficient applicants to make some form of RDF a feasible concept.

NTM

Interesting you should say that, I made that very point on another forum - cut each RDF bn to a coy and and affiliate it to a PDF bn. Three RDF coys per PDF brigade totalling 3 RDF battalions. Do the same thing with arty etc and presto - one full strength RDF brigade instead of 3 paper formations. The scary thing is I heard, from two completely separate sources, that the RIB's are being downgraded in this fashion...

realismpol

This cash escort thing is now truley beyond a joke. Is there any other country in the world thats use's members of its armed forces to do what is essentially a police job. Could never understand why they just didn't use armed gardai.

Manic Moran

concussion wrote: »

Interesting you should say that, I made that very point on another forum - cut each RDF bn to a coy and and affiliate it to a PDF bn. Three RDF coys per PDF brigade totalling 3 RDF battalions. Do the same thing with arty etc and presto - one full strength RDF brigade instead of 3 paper formations. The scary thing is I heard, from two completely separate sources, that the RIB's are being downgraded in this fashion...

If it's the way I think it is, basically using RDF as 'roundouts' for PDF units (i.e. three PDF companies in a battalion, one RDF, and one RDF platoon per Cav Squadron, signal company, etc) then that's not going to work either. Where's the career progression? "OK, I've made it to company command. Now what?" You really think that they'll let an RDF officer command the battalion? Or worse, in the corps units, let an RDF officer command the company? Who in their right mind would want to become an LT in the RDF Cav? "OK, I'm a troop commander for two years... then what?" With such low limits on career progression, you're going to have difficulty attracting long-term candidates.

NTM

concussion

The other major problem is in its cababilities - the primary role of the RDF is to provide support during armed conflict. Streamlining and cutting down the force will effectively prevent the RDF from expanding during a crisis as there will only be the command structure for a single brigade as opposed to the three we currently have. If the RDF is not capable of providing support 'as a contingency' is there any point having it??

FlyOver

concussion wrote: »

If the RDF is not capable of providing support 'as a contingency' is there any point having it??

Same could be said for the PDF

Manic Moran

Oooh... snap.

NTM

-boris

Well my humble opinion on the subject is that we have been deeper in the **** before(economically speaking) and the then F.C.A. was not disbanded or the various other reserves this nation has had,therefore i think it illogical to speculate that the R.D.F. will be disbanded.

syklops

Manic Moran wrote: »

As another man has said, the RDF needs to be given some teeth. Mandatory employment protection, pay for all training completed, accountability and responsibility for the leadership, and a proper subjection to Army standards of discipline and training. I am unaware of any Western military reserve organisation which is as 'loose' as the RDF.

Now, exactly why the RDF was never turned into a more professional organisation is either the fault of the goverments, or of the seniors of the PDF who may be worried about being shown up by the amateurs.

NTM

I may not have as much experience in the RDF as some folks on this forum(Just under a decade), however, I agree to an extent that the RDF is doomed until a new government and a minister with some teeth gets behind them.

Himself has never been a major fan of the reserve. I do sometimes wonder if its because he was not allowed in when he was 17, for being too short, but that is for my own musings.

I believe there are several reasons why so few RDF personnel turn up for training weeks, weekends etc., one of which is the limitations that have been placed on the RDF by both the PDF and the DoD. For example, the maximum number of man days RDF personnel are allowed serve is, and I may be wrong in the number, 42 days? If the RDF performs so badly, why are there restrictions on how long you can serve? If an individual has been trained to a high level by going on multiple courses, throughout the year, why should the person be denied on going on future exercises because he has gone over his allowance?

Other reasons are more obvious, such as people in the private sector having to use their holidays to go on training. There used to be a document you could get from the DoD, stating that the DoD required your presence for a few days/weeks, which you could give to your employer, and you could(should) be allowed go and serve. Unfortunately, like the RDF, the minister, and the legislation, the document itself has no teeth. Smaller employers ignore it, and larger ones use the contract the employee signed and a bit of confusing legaleese, to scare their employee into declining duty.

I agree the RDF will be dead in a short number of years if nothing is done. And this will be a great shame as the RDF/FCA/LDF has been a part of modern Irish culture for decades. I know of few people in my family(non serving members I should add), who do not have an anecdote regarding one of the three going back decades.

The death of the RDF will also be a blow for national security. 75% of the Air Defence regiment is RDF personnel. Disbanding the RDF will mean cutting our Air defence capabilities by 3 quarters. Take from that as you will. Air defence in this country is a bit of a joke. The guns the AD use are nearly 40 years old. Add to that, that we are not under threat of aerial attack, and if we were, the island of Majorca could probably muster a squadron that could beat our defences. If they serve no purpose why have them?

Personally, I do not believe the RDF are of no use, I believe the RDF are under used. If the PDF are so overworked, why not call upon the RDF to do cash duties, call upon the medics to do first aid at national events, or in case of emergency? The cynical part of me will say 'overtime', but its probably not that. I think the reason the RDF is underused, is because the upper echelons think that Ireland does not need an army, and that the most cost effective way of defending Ireland, is training ~20000 part time soldiers in marskmanship etc. training a couple of small specialist units, such as EOD, Rangers and intel, and getting rid of the rest. This fear is why the RDF is neglected.

A smart person once said, "If You’re Good at Something, Never Do It For Free". I think the powers that be have been using the logic, "If they do it for free, thay cant be any good".

Manic Moran

Disbanding the RDF will mean cutting our Air defence capabilities by 3 quarters

You caught it yourself... 75% of nothing is nothing. The Air Defense capabilities would not suffer appreciably.

NTM

hk

syklops wrote: »

The cynical part of me will say 'overtime', but its probably not that. . training a couple of small specialist units, such as EOD, Rangers and intel, and getting rid of the rest.

There is no overtime in the PDF, you work as long as is required, you get a small military service allowance to make up for the fact that you may work unsociable hours or well over the working day, no overtime.On the second point, HA thats hilarous, starting to get sick of the RDF we can do your job attitude, you cant, I am not knocking your abilities but ye are nowhere near the standard required. The type of specialist units you are talking about require extremely long and intensive training, but most of all require the day to day workload to remain proficient, not to mention the potential security risks involved in training part timers to that standard,

Hard Larry

syklops wrote: »

Personally, I do not believe the RDF are of no use, I believe the RDF are under used. If the PDF are so overworked, why not call upon the RDF to do cash duties, call upon the medics to do first aid at national events, or in case of emergency?

I agree the RDF are under used for tasks.

Medics at national events are all ready covered by St John Ambulance and Civil Defence so you can get about a free pass for ******

If there was a national emergency (and I don't mean World War 2) then every swinging d*ck in town would be called out. But no one wants that.

Where the hell is everyone getting the opinion that the Army is overworked and unable to meet its commitments?

Duties are thick and fast at the moment but its nothing new and nothing that hasn't been dealt with before.
I might be swayed to say that Overseas in Chad and Kosovo that too much is being done for the size of the force but at the end of the day being out on the road is better than being in barracks/camp under the eye.

31charlie

the problem is that the DOD and the general staff don't want to give the RDF a chance to become a viable reserve force because if they did have a properly trained and usable reserve they would then have to deal with the bitching of RACO AND PDFORRA

Hard Larry

31charlie wrote: »

the problem is that the DOD and the general staff don't want to give the RDF a chance to become a viable reserve force because if they did have a properly trained and usable reserve they would then have to deal with the bitching of RACO AND PDFORRA

I disagree the DoD and General Staff firmly put the ball back in the RDFs court with the Integration Initiative. Plus they were recently willing to send RDF troops overseas until the economy took a nose dive.