Wish I had Carol O'Byrnes troubles?

EastWallGirl

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/lenihan-faces-angry-backlash-from-rte-callers-1703797.html

But his words did not cut much ice with many irate listeners. Carol O'Byrne, a 51-year-old teacher earning €63,000, said she dared not open a pay slip because of the pension levy, and now expected to be down €800 or €900 a month.
"I am now suffering anxiety," she said, adding she would be financially insecure for the rest of her life.
"I will become a criminal rather than pay you any more tax. I will get another job and I will not pay tax. I know a person who is scamming social welfare, pretending to go to college, and it gets up my nose."

I am finding it a bit hard to feel sorry for Carol, none of it is 'fair' but most of are chipping in with a smaller salary then her.

Lizzykins

She couldn't possibly be down 8 or 9 hundred euro a month.

Wish I was earning €63,000 a year, I'm not even near half that amount and I get by, just.

Godge

Is she the same woman who was desperate at the thought of having to pay the mortgages on her apartments abroad?

mikemac

Those buy to let homes don't pay for themselves you know. And now tenants have the cheek to ask for rent reductions!

silverharp

EastWallGirl wrote: »

I will become a criminal rather than pay you any more tax. I will get another job and I will not pay tax.

her ranting aside , the gov have to be careful here. I wouldn't judge anyone that attempts to evade tax if taxes keep rising. At some point whatever perceived faith people have in the institutions here could disappear and it will be a case of everyone for themselves.

johnnyskeleton

silverharp wrote: »

her ranting aside , the gov have to be careful here. I wouldn't judge anyone that attempts to evade tax if taxes keep rising. At some point whatever perceived faith people have in the institutions here could disappear and it will be a case of everyone for themselves.

It's a pity people can't make gestures against tax hikes other than evading taxes. I don't think anyone in the country would have a problem paying the higher taxes (bar those who were evading taxes anyway over the last few years) if they felt that the money was being put to good use. But the overwhelming opinion seems to be that we are paying higher taxes to keep politicians, bankers, developers and to a lesser extent public servants in clover.

aare

silverharp wrote: »

her ranting aside , the gov have to be careful here. I wouldn't judge anyone that attempts to evade tax if taxes keep rising. At some point whatever perceived faith people have in the institutions here could disappear and it will be a case of everyone for themselves.

There is a great truth in that...

Firetrap

I doubt very much that she's down that much money a month. Perhaps she should open that payslip. She might be pleasantly surprised :rolleyes:

Besides, someone on €63,000 and is a public servant to boot is better off keeping their head down and not bleating about it. There's many a person who would gladly take her job, levies and all.

Lizzykins

I read yesterday that she said she had 'unwisely' invested abroad so we have a clearer picture now. Obviously the rental income from this place is not covering the mortgage. I've little or no sympathy.

mikemac

investment property in Croatia

My heart bleeds

Firetrap

She's not the first person to be caught like that and she won't be the last :rolleyes: Has she never heard of the phrase "You burnt your ar$e, go sit on the blister"

EastWallGirl

There are real issues in the budget for those of us that are PAYE earners on 'average' or little over average incomes. I do think that it will encourage bartering (legal) or black economy (illegal).

I would have her job, levies and all.

Did not know about her investment property....Hmmm, I do understand people buying a property as an investment for their retirement but until you have the deeds in your hot little hands it is still an investment and one with risk. It could be worse she could have investred in BOI or AIB shares, those pensioners are the poor bastards I feel sorry for.

At least with a house, even if it is over valued you still have a tangible building to look at...shares nothing and she has a job and she can still negotiate something with her bank.

I still dont feel sorry for her though!

zootroid

How the hell does a teacher earn 63k a year?!

Stories like this only reinforce the perception that public sector employees earn way more than private sector employees. But that debate has been done to death on this forum, so its not something I want to get into.

Still, absolutely no sympathy for her. I have sympathy for those who have been laid off with families to support. Not those with well paying jobs, who are moaning that they have to pay more tax or are being asked to contribute to their pensions.

K4t

zootroid wrote: »

How the hell does a teacher earn 63k a year?!

Skilled job and you only get that much after around 30 years of service.

Back on topic: However, I have very little sympathy for people who lost money in foreign property. They played the property ladder and lost. They have to suffer the consequences now.

Darwin

There is no mystery about teachers pay scales - the rates are published for all to see. Unlike what seems to be the typical age demographic on boards (mid twenties) she is in her fifties with most of her career behind her. The fact that she is a public sector worker is irrelevant. Most people, both public and private sector, availed of the cheap credit being fed to us by the banks and perhaps lost the run of themselves in the process. Now that things are unravelling we shouldn't lose sight of that.

ntlbell

she was in a great position

mortgage paid off.

on a great salary.

SHE put herself into her current situation by getting greedy and trying to live a life beyond her means

ntlbell

Darwin wrote: »

There is no mystery about teachers pay scales - the rates are published for all to see. Unlike what seems to be the typical age demographic on boards (mid twenties) she is in her fifties with most of her career behind her. The fact that she is a public sector worker is irrelevant. Most people, both public and private sector, availed of the cheap credit being fed to us by the banks and perhaps lost the run of themselves in the process. Now that things are unravelling we shouldn't lose sight of that.

lose sight of what?

her situation is of her own making?

correct.

K4t

Darwin wrote: »

There is no mystery about teachers pay scales - the rates are published for all to see. Unlike what seems to be the typical age demographic on boards (mid twenties) she is in her fifties with most of her career behind her. The fact that she is a public sector worker is irrelevant. Most people, both public and private sector, availed of the cheap credit being fed to us by the banks and perhaps lost the run of themselves in the process. Now that things are unravelling we shouldn't lose sight of that.

Erm, no they didn't!

copacetic

Lizzykins wrote: »

She couldn't possibly be down 8 or 9 hundred euro a month.

I don't feel particularly sorry for her but would think she could be down around that much pretty easily. Pension levey could have cost her 350-400 a month and the budget another 350 or so. So about 750 I'd say.

namenotavailablE

I cannot see how the public sector pension levy and the new income/health levy rates could cause a monthly reduction of €800+ [NET] based on a gross of €63000 per annum.

Ballpark net reduction should be around €350 per month. The pension levy would account for approx €224 per month in March and April and the new levies increase the reduction by approx €120 per month as and from May.

If anyone is interested in checking the impact of the mini-budget on their net pay, I wrote this calculator [taxcalc.eu/monthlyss] which I have checked against my own pay data. I'vereceived feedback from other users and am satisfied that it accurately calculates your net pay using the old rules for Jan to April and the new rules from May to December (it also works for fortnightly and weekly paid employees, whether public or private sector).To use it you need a payslip which shows things such as tax credits and cut-off point for the month/fortnight/week.

There are instructions contained in the spreadsheet. If anyone can't follow the instructions for using it, send an email to the address contained on the 'Instructions' worksheet in the spreadsheet and I'll try assist.

Darwin

ntlbell wrote: »

lose sight of what?

her situation is of her own making?

correct.

Yes the situation is of her own making, but she is not alone, many many people borrowed to the hilt on cheap credit to get mortgages, car loans, property abroad in both private and public sectors.

@K4t I'm speaking from experience of family/friends who work in both sectors.

copacetic

namenotavailabl wrote: »

I cannot see how the public sector pension levy and the new income/health levy rates could cause a monthly reduction of €800+ [NET] based on a gross of €63000 per annum.

Ballpark net reduction should be around €350 per month. The pension levy would account for approx €224 per month in March and April and the new levies increase the reduction by approx €120 per month as and from May.

If anyone is interested in checking the impact of the mini-budget on their net pay, I wrote this calculator [taxcalc.eu/monthlyss] which I have checked against my own pay data. I'vereceived feedback from other users and am satisfied that it accurately calculates your net pay using the old rules for Jan to April and the new rules from May to December (it also works for fortnightly and weekly paid employees, whether public or private sector).To use it you need a payslip which shows things such as tax credits and cut-off point for the month/fortnight/week.

There are instructions contained in the spreadsheet. If anyone can't follow the instructions for using it, send an email to the address contained on the 'Instructions' worksheet in the spreadsheet and I'll try assist.

According to the ey one here she would be at least €190 a month worse of after the budget.

On top of this she mentioned the mortgage interest relief which neither your calc or the ey one takes into account. I'm not sure but isn't that up to €150 a month? That takes here up to mid 300s.

Since you have seriously underestimated the budget effect I can only assume you have done the same for the pension levy.

Either way it doens't matter too much, and she appears to have exaggerated for sure but it appears she is more than 500 worse off at least and less than 800.

namenotavailablE

Thanks for your feedback- here are some points to clarify my calculations:

copacetic wrote: »

According to the ey one here she would be at least €190 a month worse of after the budget....

Since you have seriously underestimated the budget effect I can only assume you have done the same for the pension levy.

The EY calculator ignores the public sector pension levy - my calculator allows for this charge. Hence, the EY calculator underestimates the impact on the net pay of a public sector employee. Additionally, it's worth being aware that the EY calculator (unlike my own) only caters for PRSI class A employees. A public servant recruited pre 6 April 1995 is a class D employee. This impacts upon the level of PRSI payable.

The pension levy was deducted in March (and will be deducted in April) from all public sector pay. The deductions in these months are computed using the 'old' thresholds which are as follows:

Annual amount Rate of levy
First 15000 3%
Next 5000 6%
Remaining income 10%

These thresholds are allocated over a 10 month period (rather than 12 months) so the monthly values were the first €1500 @ 3%, next €500 @ 6% and remaining income at 10%. The gross deduction for a monthly salary of €5250 (€63000/12) is calculated at €400, which the calculator correctly indicates.

The new thresholds, which kick in on May 1st, are as follows:

Annual amount Rate of levy
First 15000 0%
Next 5000 5%
Next 40000 10%
Balance of income 10.5%

Again these are allocated over a 10 month period (although if anyone has a link to a verification source for this I would be happy to make any amendment if required- it's possible that the new limits are to be spread out over 8 months) and the gross monthly deduction would work out at €350 based on a salary of €5250 gross per month. My calculator originally showed a wrong value of €346 due to an error in the spreadsheet- a relatively immaterial difference but wrong nonetheless. The key point, however, is that the calculator does not seriously underestimate the impact of the pension levy.
The amended calculator correctly computes the impact of the revised levy.

copacetic wrote: »

On top of this she mentioned the mortgage interest relief which neither your calc or the ey one takes into account. I'm not sure but isn't that up to €150 a month? That takes here up to mid 300s.

You are correct in this matter- my estimate of the change in a person's net pay does not account for the change in mortgage relief (the value of this relief depends on whether you are single/ married and a first time buyer or not/ investor- see here for details: http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it1.html); similarly, factors such as the extra cost of driving a diesel car, smoking or the loss from early childcare benefits are not taken into account etc. The calculator should be used as a net pay calculator which focuses solely on the impact of the mini-budget on your payslip ie net earnings from employment- this is stated on the first line of the 'Instructions' worksheet.

My original statement that a teacher on €63000 gross can expect to lose out by approx €350 NET is based on comparing the January payslip to the May payslip. The March pension levy would have resulted in net pay deduction of €212 NET (€400 gross). The May payslip shows an additional deduction of €124 compared to April. If you want, you can download the current spreadsheet and test it. I assumed a single person's standard tax credits and cut-off point apply and that no pension contributions were made by the employee in arriving at my values. FYI, the net pay for Jan and Feb for this mythical employee was €3694, March and April €3482 and May onwards €3358- hence a net reduction of €336 of which €124 is as a consequence of the mini-budget.

Feel free to revert if I can clarify anything further.

couerdelion

Many people are in the same position. No one expected salaries to be reduced and a savage budget to further reduce incomings. People were budgeting for interest rate increases when calculating affordability of investment properties, no one foresaw that the bubble would both burst and the market contract as much as it has. Did anyone budget for falling salaries?

For people to say it is sheer greed that has got people into this trouble is a little bit simplistic. Many people have bought investment properties for their retirement as they are scared the public pension won't still be around and they are hoping that the money made will be enough to keep them comforable in their old age. Not everyone bought for that reason though so I can understand the bitterness.

I do feel sorry for her. She's now facing uncertaintity in her life due to a recession that isn't of her doing.

ntlbell

Darwin wrote: »

Yes the situation is of her own making, but she is not alone, many many people borrowed to the hilt on cheap credit to get mortgages, car loans, property abroad in both private and public sectors.

@K4t I'm speaking from experience of family/friends who work in both sectors.

i don't care about the fact she works in the public sector or otherwise her problems are because of her own greed where she works is pretty much irrelevant

ntlbell

couerdelion wrote: »

I do feel sorry for her. She's now facing uncertaintity in her life due to a recession that isn't of her doing.

there would be no uncertainty if she didn't make some bad greedy choices.

her situation is of her making not the recession's

the recession didn't cause her to re-mortgage and buy investment property

ceret

EastWallGirl wrote: »

"I am now suffering anxiety," she said, adding she would be financially insecure for the rest of her life.

Highly unlikely. She has a permanent pensionable public sector job where you can't be fired.

AlekSmart

But the overwhelming opinion seems to be that we are paying higher taxes to keep politicians, bankers, developers and to a lesser extent public servants in clover.

And with each passing day it becomes clearer the the €90 Billion Toxic pile was amassed by as few as 50 (well connected) individuals,a fact which according to the Sunday Tribune was described as "bizzarre" by Dept of Finance officials...I`ll bet it was !!!

EastWallGirl

couerdelion wrote: »

Many people are in the same position. No one expected salaries to be reduced and a savage budget to further reduce incomings. People were budgeting for interest rate increases when calculating affordability of investment properties, no one foresaw that the bubble would both burst and the market contract as much as it has. Did anyone budget for falling salaries?

For people to say it is sheer greed that has got people into this trouble is a little bit simplistic. Many people have bought investment properties for their retirement as they are scared the public pension won't still be around and they are hoping that the money made will be enough to keep them comforable in their old age. Not everyone bought for that reason though so I can understand the bitterness.

I do feel sorry for her. She's now facing uncertaintity in her life due to a recession that isn't of her doing.

Partly...I think people did factor a small raise in interest rates, but what they did not factor in was that the arse was going to fall out of the property market. And that has been obvious since around 2006 a couple on average salaries could not afford to buy a house and fit it out without a 100% + mortgage and live anywhere near work.

I undersatand the concept of an investment property being your pension plan but I do not think a holiday let in Croatia meets that criteria, unless she planned to live there in her retiremement. Although as I said before although her investment is overpriced, she still can see 4 walls and a roof, I would rather that then looking at BOI & AIB shares.

sydthebeat

ive had to take a 40% pay cut in wages, i have 5 kids, 3 under 5 1/2.... so since this time last year im down roughly €17,500.....

that not to mention my pension that has been decimated down 36% from what ive paid into the bloody thing

so if this woman, with her €63K thinks she suffers from anxiety... she hasnt got a clue!!!

ceret

AlekSmart wrote: »

And with each passing day it becomes clearer the the €90 Billion Toxic pile was amassed by as few as 50 (well connected) individuals,a fact which according to the Sunday Tribune was described as "bizzarre" by Dept of Finance officials...I`ll bet it was !!!

Hmm, do we know who these 50 developers are?

Rod & Reel

This report came from a conversation with Brian Leninhan on the Pat Kenny Radio show 1 day last week. i was listening. She did sound very upset but as u listened to her u got to understand where she was coming from.

she was well peed with the new levies and then the new hikes fair enuff i think we all are. but then she went on to say that 4 yrs ago she, her words "she stupidly remortgaged her home to buy an apt in crotia" and if she had not done so she would not be complaining near as much now.

was it greed i dont know, was she thinking well iv worked for the past 30/35yrs and im not getting any younger so maybe a nice spot in the sun is something i deserve for my yrs of service. Was she foolish, obivously in hindsight yes, is she to blame probably. after all no forced her to sign the dotted line but maybe she thought after yrs of service to the state teaching kids who some of would have went on to contribute a wealth in experince to this ecomony she deserved a SPOT IN THE SUN.

maybe after reading another post or maybe this 1 the avearge age of a board user is 20 sumtin so they would not have the forsite to see what this person was thinking.

btw im 32.

ntlbell

Rod & Reel wrote: »

she deserved a SPOT IN THE SUN.

She did indeed and she now deserves to take on the personal accountability that goes along with assuming you're entitled to a nice home in your own country paid off and another one in Croatia

sure she worked all her life...

There should be a head of wall smiley

ixoy

Rod & Reel wrote: »

maybe after reading another post or maybe this 1 the avearge age of a board user is 20 sumtin so they would not have the forsite to see what this person was thinking.

Umm you could argue forsight is exactly what she was lacking. Nobody has a "right" to an apartment in the sum and people need to take responsibility for buying beyond their means by anticipating the fact that their current means may change.

btw im 32.

By the by, I'm 30. Age doesn't really play a factor here, it only reflects the fact that the greed and short-term approach by some spanned across the generations.

Rod & Reel

ntlbell wrote: »

She did indeed and she now deserves to take on the personal accountability that goes along with assuming you're entitled to a nice home in your own country paid off and another one in Croatia

sure she worked all her life...

There should be a head of wall smiley

fruitless cheap shot at my post.u could have taken the whole aritical and replied to that. instead u took the line that would be sure to get a rise out of a lot of people.

also i never said she wasnt accountable again if u read u would have seen that.

Rod & Reel

ixoy wrote: »

Umm you could argue forsight is exactly what she was lacking. Nobody has a "right" to an apartment in the sum and people need to take responsibility for buying beyond their means by anticipating the fact that their current means may change.


By the by, I'm 30. Age doesn't really play a factor here, it only reflects the fact that the greed and short-term approach by some spanned across the generations.

ioxy i dont assume with what she did was rite and as i have stated she was foolish and she is to blame. lots of people have second homes for thier retierment lots more have pensions which the pay into in hope of having a nice future when thier old, are the also foolish for paying X amount for the past 35/40 yrs to find out its not near quater the value they had hoped for.

no age shouldnt matter but when ur 20 sumtin u dont look to the future as much as when ur 30 40 or in her case 50 sumtin.

ntlbell

Rod & Reel wrote: »

fruitless cheap shot at my post.u could have taken the whole aritical and replied to that. instead u took the line that would be sure to get a rise out of a lot of people.

also i never said she wasnt accountable again if u read u would have seen that.

i'm highlighting a mentality that a lot of people have and is part of the reason her and many like her are in the situation she's in.

owning a home is not a right, owning a home and a fecking holiday pad in croatia is far far from a right she's a school teacher for god sake.

gurramok

Just because she educated kids does not merit an entitlement to anything. She was paid huge wages for that.

No-one is entitled to anything in life, even a spot in the sun for retirement, you work for that pad instead.

ntlbell

Rod & Reel wrote: »

ioxy i dont assume with what she did was rite and as i have stated she was foolish and she is to blame. lots of people have second homes for thier retierment lots more have pensions which the pay into in hope of having a nice future when thier old, are the also foolish for paying X amount for the past 35/40 yrs to find out its not near quater the value they had hoped for.

no age shouldnt matter but when ur 20 sumtin u dont look to the future as much as when ur 30 40 or in her case 50 sumtin.

lots of people do stupid things it's not a get out clause

"oh but everyone was doing it"

their pensions wouldn't be worth a quarter they are now if they kept an eye on what was going on.

a simple move into cash would of stopped any rot.

people wanted MORE and MORE and paying little or not attention to what was going on.

jimmycrackcorm

At least she isn't as bad as the Aer Corp pilot who ended up with €8million worth of mortgages and who lost his won home in the process.

If a man goes out on the town, gets drunk, falls over and breaks his leg - who's fault is it:

a) His own?
b) The pub selling the alcohol?
c) The government for not regulating alcohol enough?

ntlbell

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

At least she isn't as bad as the Aer Corp pilot who ended up with €8million worth of mortgages and who lost his won home in the process.

If a man goes out on the town, gets drunk, falls over and breaks his leg - who's fault is it:

a) His own?
b) The pub selling the alcohol?
c) The government for not regulating alcohol enough?

he didn't complain tho IIRC

dodgyme

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

At least she isn't as bad as the Aer Corp pilot who ended up with €8million worth of mortgages and who lost his won home in the process.

If a man goes out on the town, gets drunk, falls over and breaks his leg - who's fault is it:

a) His own?
b) The pub selling the alcohol?
c) The government for not regulating alcohol enough?

Its his legs fault

Rod & Reel

dodgyme wrote: »

Its his legs fault

Dodgy doesnt do drunks but if he did theres always D

Sponge Bob

Friend of mine just back from one of the teachers conferences reckoned that the feeling about was that Carol cost them all the good publicity and sympathy they may have managed to wring out of the event ....and more.

http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2009/pc/pod-v-080409-44m56s-todaypk.mp3

She is about 10 mins in .

oh well

I've just listened to that Podcast - because of her own stupidity which she admits to, she feels hard done by. When we bought our first house interest rates jumped up to 15% - no one predicted it and we were all in shock but we had to put up and pay them. She is complaining about her investment causing her to be in financial anxiety - tough luck. She took a gamble on investment property and lost. I've put extra money into my pension as my investment for future pension (which won't be a patch on a public sector teacher's pension) and I've seen it go belly up. I'm gutted but in all fairness, thats the luck of the draw. I don't get to whinge to ministers about it - she's on a good salary guaranteed job and guaranteed pension yet she moans and whinges like a 6 yr old in class at getting extra homework.

by the way, i must be like an OAP on boards if everyone is in mid 20s, I'm in mid 40s. agggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh

P. Breathnach

oh well wrote: »

... by the way, i must be like an OAP on boards if everyone is in mid 20s, I'm in mid 40s. agggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh

From where I am, that seems young.

sneakyST

ntlbell wrote: »

owning a home is not a right,

you may want to tell that to a lot of people on here and other forums who are jumping up and down wanting to buy houses in d4 for thrupence hapenny...

ntlbell wrote: »

a simple move into cash would of stopped any rot.

Some or a lot of pensions cant be put into cash after 2 years of contributions. Believe me I tried.
I think you are harsh but ultimately correct. I can understand if someone reached 51 and had no pension - do you try and save or take a punt on something. However on 63k and a state pension, no mortgage I bet she could have saved more money than she bought the property for........

bringitdown

I listened to this on air, and honestly once she said

I stupidly, through an investor friend of mine, bought a property abroad

I lost any and all sympathy I had for her. She is responsible for stretching herself to the limit based on her current salary and not including contingency for a time when things might not be so rosy. Its not nice, its not enviable but its not the governments responsibility.

(Of course wish they could extend that to the macro investors that have made a feck of the banking system)

jimmycrackcorm

Same story, if another angle, about the young teacher who tackled Batman at one of the conferences. She wasn't old enough to have bought her "croatian investment property" but was pissed off at having overpaid for her residence becasue of economic stupidity.

MG

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Friend of mine just back from one of the teachers conferences reckoned that the feeling about was that Carol cost them all the good publicity and sympathy they may have managed to wring out of the event ....and more.

Not sure they would have had any sympathy anyway regardless of this woman. Both public and private sector are long sick of the teaching union's whinging.