God tells us to kill people?

Sam Vimes

Continuation from AH thread so as not to take it off topic:
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59746937&postcount=190

Jakkass wrote: »

Moral Torah is binding on all Christian men, judicial and ceremonial have been fulfilled as Christ said (Matthew 5:17). Theres no point in me trying to give you the Christian understanding of it though if you're not willing to be open to it.

I am absolutely open to it. As far as I can see God is telling us to kill people and I'd love to be proven wrong

Jakkass wrote: »

I amn't theres much value in it. Christians view it differently to Jews however. I think the Old Testament is one of the finest religious texts I've ever read in it's own right.

So which parts of it are we to ignore and which parts are we to follow? And why are those parts still in our bible if we're not supposed to follow them? Surely it's very dangerous to have things like that in there? You decided to focus your beliefs on the new testament but Fred Phelps decided to focus his on the old. You're both following Gods laws but he apparently changed his laws. Who's right?

Jakkass wrote: »

Because you've disregarded my explanation, which is fair enough despite Paul and others giving a similar view to what I have in the New Testament.

I haven't disregarded your explanation, I don't understand it. I can't see anything in the text that you posted that says what you're claiming it says. Am I missing something from the context? Should I be able to see it from that small excerpt?

Jakkass wrote: »

Legal Torah was carried out by the Sanhedrin High Priests. The book of Hebrews in the New Testament tells us that Jesus is the High Priest of Christianity, as such it is Christ's judgement of the Old Testament that matters. How can we take Christ's judgement of the Old Testament into account then? Well, it's rather clear to me, Christ gives his understanding of many Old Testament passages, and we as Christians should apply them to our reading of the Old Testament.

So where does it specifically say that the instruction is only to be carried on by high priests and where does Jesus specifically overrule that part?

Jakkass wrote: »

BTW, God is deeming it acceptable to punish people for having foreign gods or idols actually if you read the whole chapter. This was the law of Israel, if you did this you were to die. Paul goes on to note that all sinners are deserving of death in Romans 1, but through Christ's grace we have received an opportunity to put ourselves right with God. NT explains OT in that situation too.

You say that as if it somehow justifies killing people for not believing in god

Jakkass wrote: »

But Sam, since I'm a Christian, everything I explain must automatically be wrong?

No Jakkass, you're just very often wrong. That doesn't mean that Christians are wrong, it just means that you support your points with a lot of faulty logic

philologos

I'd request moving this thread to the Christianity forum to continue. More people will be able to contribute from both sides of the debate. Humanities is for more general issues on society rather than Christian issues.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

I'd request moving this thread to the Christianity forum to continue. More people will be able to contribute from both sides of the debate. Humanities is for more general issues on society rather than Christian issues.

Tbh Jakkass I don't want to move it to the Christianity forum because there are a few nut cases there that I don't want to get involved in this discussion

towel401

Those were barbaric times when that was written. maybe killing people for whatever reason was a good idea at the time and obviously it isn't anymore now. The bible contains a lot of different scripts from a lot of different places and have been translated and copied over the years, so I suppose they would keep these things for the sake of completeness or historical reasons. I don't think stuff is often removed from the bible but I don't know much about it

i know there is one gospel that wasn't included in the bible because it was too different from the others or something but its really just a collection of texts and shouldnt be seen as one unit

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote:

BTW, God is deeming it acceptable to punish people for having foreign gods or idols actually if you read the whole chapter. This was the law of Israel, if you did this you were to die. Paul goes on to note that all sinners are deserving of death in Romans 1, but through Christ's grace we have received an opportunity to put ourselves right with God. NT explains OT in that situation too.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=2&version=9

I had a read of Romans 1 and I can't see that part....

philologos

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Tbh Jakkass I don't want to move it to the Christianity forum because there are a few nut cases there that I don't want to get involved in this discussion

I think it's only fair to have the Christians comment on what they believe concerning the Scriptures. Most of the Christians, if not all, are reasonable people on boards.ie.

(BTW, You don't consider me a nut case :pac:)

Sam Vimes

towel401 wrote: »

Those were barbaric times when that was written. maybe killing people for whatever reason was a good idea at the time and obviously it isn't anymore now. The bible contains a lot of different scripts from a lot of different places and have been translated and copied over the years, so I suppose they would keep these things for the sake of completeness or historical reasons. I don't think stuff is often removed from the bible but I don't know much about it

i know there is one gospel that wasn't included in the bible because it was too different from the others or something but its really just a collection of texts and shouldnt be seen as one unit

I would absolutely agree but that is a very secular view of the bible and isn't really compatible with the idea that it was given to us by an omnipotent, timeless being....

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

I think it's only fair to have the Christians comment on what they believe concerning the Scriptures. Most of the Christians, if not all, are reasonable people on boards.ie.

(BTW, You don't consider me a nut case :pac:)

No I don't consider you a nut case, The type of denial and faulty reasoning you have shown is common among both religious and secular people, it's human nature when someone wants to believe something. I think you can be saved yet

What I don't want is people pontificating to me about heresy causing earthquakes and the like and I know that's going to happen if it gets moved there

philologos

Sam Vimes wrote: »

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=2&version=9

I had a read of Romans 1 and I can't see that part....

Romans 1:32 wrote:

"They know God’s decree, that those who practise such things deserve to die—yet they not only do them but even applaud others who practise them."

There you are. I'm using the NRSV translation. Actually, it'd be pretty cool if you do use it in any future discussions so we are on the same page.

http://bible.oremus.org/

Concerning the earthquake thread, that is a single poster. I don't think you can deem all Christians to be the same concerning it. PDN, and others on the forum could be really useful, and I think I'd like to see their input as well as mine. You doubt my interpretation of the Scripture, so I think if we had other Christians posting, it might give you a broader view. You and I have slugged it out on these type of issues quite a few times, I just think we need a change of venue. Many from the A&A forum post there too.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

There you are. I'm using the NRSV translation. Actually, it'd be pretty cool if you do use it in any future discussions so we are on the same page.

http://bible.oremus.org/

Concerning the earthquake thread, that is a single poster. I don't think you can deem all Christians to be the same concerning it. PDN, and others on the forum could be really useful, and I think I'd like to see their input as well as mine.

If I'm reading that right it would be correct to paraphrase it as "They know that by doing these things they deserve to die but they do them anyway".

Where does it say that they are not to die? All it says to me is that they deserve to die

Sam Vimes

While we're at this, can you point out any flaw in my reasoning here (copypasta from my own post in an AH thread)

Here's a handy way to disprove the existence of Jesus (the supernatural being, not the man) in three easy steps:

Step 1: read Corinthians 15:3-8

3 For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures,
4 and that he was buried, and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures,
5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.
6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters* at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died.*
7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles.
8 Last of all, as to someone untimely born, he appeared also to me.

Here we learn two important facts:

1. Jesus proved his resurrection by appearing to people
2. It is ok to appear to people. He appeared to hundreds and their faith was not harmed in any way and their free will was not taken away

Step 2: Read Matthew 18:19-20

19 Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.
20 For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.

Here we learn two important facts:
1. Jesus is amongst us, he could be standing next to you right now
2. God will do anything we ask


Step 3: Ask Jesus to appear. Grab a friend and try this prayer:

Dear Jesus, we know that you are in our midst already. We ask you to physically appear,
so that we may know you are resurrected. We have faith that you will answer our prayer as
you promise in the Bible. In your name we pray, Amen.

To recap, supposedly we know from the bible:
1. Jesus is already here
2. It would be trivial for him to appear. He is all powerful and timeless
3. It is OK for him to appear. He has appeared to hundreds
4. Jesus has promised that he will appear in response to our prayers.

And yet nothing happens. Conclusion:Jesus does not exist


That's it all wrapped up so. You can turn in your crucifixes at the nearest Garda station

towel401

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I would absolutely agree but that is a very secular view of the bible and isn't really compatible with the idea that it was given to us by an omnipotent, timeless being....

of cousre not, if it actually was it would just have one chapter: God and written in the first person

i didn't think anyone claimed it was, just the 10 commandments

philologos

Sam Vimes wrote: »

If I'm reading that right it would be correct to paraphrase it as "They know that by doing this they deserve to die but they do them anyway".

Where does it say that they are not to die? All it says to me is that they deserve to die

Sure let me go through another passage in Romans to explain that. BTW, if you could do me a favour, and read the entire chapter as well to put it in context for yourself where I do quote. I don't want to bark the Bible at you if it has no use in explaining what I want to explain. But rather so that you can understand where I'm coming from.

Romans 6:3 wrote:

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

When Christians are baptized, they are baptized into Christ's death. So we have already died for the penalty for our sins, because Jesus has died for us. Therefore we are given a new life and a new opportunity to put ourselves right with God before the final judgement. This is what Christians mean when they say to be born again (John 3:5).

So taking this into context with the first passage:

Sinners deserve to die for their sins, and the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). However, when we are baptized, we are baptized into Jesus' death, so we have already died for our sins in effect. This means, that we have a new life, and a new opportunity to justify ourselves with God.

Teachings such as: Forgive so that you too may be forgiven (Matthew 6:15), and Let the one whoever has not sinned cast the first stone (John 8:7), set Jesus as an authority figure over us.

The Torah says that whoever has sinned should be due death, Jesus as High Priest and the judge of the Torah has ruled that He should atone for our death, and through His mercy that we will have new life and a new opportunity to put ourselves right with Him.

You asked a very good question concerning how we know that the High Priests ruled on the Sanhedrin to judge court cases:
1) We know that Jesus was brought before the Sanhedrin to be charged with blasphemy and be put to death in the Gospels.
2) The procedure is codified as Jewish practice in the Babylonian Talmud, a commentary on the Torah.
3) The procedure is listeed in the Torah itself.

I'll deal with 3 if you don't mind as the Babylonian Talmud is a text over 10,000 pages and is a multivolume work, and I'm not a well read Jewish scholar

I'll use one example from the Torah:
(concerning thieves)

Exodus 22:8 wrote:

If the thief is not caught, the owner of the house shall be brought before God, to determine whether or not the owner had laid hands on the neighbours goods

The footnotes of my Bible also inform me:
"Or before the judges".

In the New Jerome Biblical Commentary (which is mainly a Roman Catholic commentary, but is used in Anglican circles too) comments on the verse as follows:

"Come near to God" means to take a solemn oath in the local sanctuary as v 11 suggests. As the Code of Hammurabi (Assyrian legal code) makes clear, the person to whom the deposit was entrusted might deny that the deposit was ever made and claim the goods were all his. If there were no records or witnesses, the case had to be decided by oath, and presumably by an ordeal or judgement by which one of the two claimants was declared guilty by God.

The local sanctuary, would be run by the Levites, the priestly clan, and the judicial process by which witnesses and records are brought forward seems to be carried out in the same location. I'm willing to hear anything else that makes an opposing case however.

I should really get a concordance too to be able to read the Hebrew word used and it's most literal meaning. However, another time for that.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

When Christians are baptized, they are baptized into Christ's death. So we have already died for the penalty for our sins, because Jesus has died for us. Therefore we are given a new life and a new opportunity to put ourselves right with God before the final judgement. This is what Christians mean when they say to be born again (John 3:5).

Right so we're given the opportunity to put ourselves right but what if we don't? What if we continue to practice things by which we deserve to die and applaud others doing the same?

Jakkass wrote: »

You asked a very good question concerning how we know that the High Priests ruled on the Sanhedrin to judge court cases:
1) We know that Jesus was brought before the Sanhedrin to be charged with blasphemy and be put to death in the Gospels.
2) The procedure is codified as Jewish practice in the Babylonian Talmud, a commentary on the Torah.
3) The procedure is listeed in the Torah itself.

Fair enough judges enforced the law. I don't even know why I brought up that question in the first place because I don't see any reason why they wouldn't

Sam Vimes

towel401 wrote: »

of cousre not, if it actually was it would just have one chapter: God and written in the first person

i didn't think anyone claimed it was, just the 10 commandments

Well I mean it's either the word of God and is to be followed lest we go to hell or it's an outdated text from barbaric times that was thrown together from a variety of sources and was mistranslated into its current form. Both of those things cannot be true can they?

philologos

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Right so we're given the opportunity to put ourselves right but what if we don't? What if we continue to practice things by which we deserve to die and applaud others doing the same?

Yes, we have this opportunity to put ourselves right with God before the final days. I.E to repent of our sins.

Again, it is said in Romans 8:1, "There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus". If you are truly serious about knowing the truth of Christ, you will become a new creation 2 Corinthians 5:17, Romans 12:2, and Christ will work through us, and we will live through Him, having been baptized in His death and born again into new life. You see the importance of the Resurrection in this theology, and you can kinda begin to understand Paul when he writes that if Christ were not Resurrected that Christian faith is in vain (1 Corinthians 15:14)

People somehow make it seem that Christianity is all about learning the rules, and conforming to rigid boundaries. The facts are in ministry nobody is expected to follow the whole Bible straight away, but to grow and learn His truth. Infact Paul alludes to this himself:

1 Corinthians 3:1-2 wrote:

And so, brothers and sisters I could not speak to you as spiritual people, but rather as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for solid food.

Fair enough judges enforced the law. I don't even know why I brought up that question in the first place because I don't see any reason why they wouldn't

Fair enough. I thought it was a good question though, as Christ as the judge of the world is an important tenet of Christianity.

I hope you'll learn something more about the way that Christians think about this anyway.

towel401 wrote: »

of cousre not, if it actually was it would just have one chapter: God and written in the first person

i didn't think anyone claimed it was, just the 10 commandments

Actually God is quoted as speaking to prophets in several books of the Bible, especially the Torah, the Psalms and the Jewish prophets.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

Yes, we have this opportunity to put ourselves right with God before the final days. I.E to repent of our sins.

Again, it is said in Romans 8:1, "There is no condemnation in Christ Jesus". If you are truly serious about knowing the truth of Christ, you will become a new creation 2 Corinthians 5:17, Romans 12:2, and Christ will work through us, and we will live through Him, having been baptized in His death and born again into new life. You see the importance of the Resurrection in this theology, and you can kinda begin to understand Paul when he writes that if Christ were not Resurrected that Christian faith is in vain (1 Corinthians 15:14)

That didn't really clarify. You say we have the opportunity to repent for our sins but what if we don't take the opporuntiy and we don't repent?


And could you point out any flaws in my argument on the previous page? It seems like a pretty airtight proof to me

philologos

Sam Vimes wrote: »

That didn't really clarify. You say we have the opportunity to repent for our sins but what if we don't take the opporuntiy and we don't repent?

You have rejected salvation and you will be punished fully for your iniquities and you will be separated from God in Gehenna. That's my understanding of the Scriptures anyway. It is up the Lord to judge, and I have no right to tell anyone they are going to hell.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

And could you point out any flaws in my argument on the previous page? It seems like a pretty airtight proof to me

Which argument on the previous page, would you mind linking it to me? Although, I think it would be best if this thread be moved to the Christianity forum for a fuller explanation. There is only so much that one individual can explain on his own steam. I'm by no means an authority on Christianity, nor do I claim to be.

Edit: I see it now, I think you should ask for the thread to be moved for a fuller perspective on that one.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

You have rejected salvation and you will be punished fully for your iniquities and you will be separated from God in Gehenna. That's my understanding of the Scriptures anyway. It is up the Lord to judge, and I have no right to tell anyone they are going to hell.

Right so is there condemnation or isn't there?

Jakkass wrote: »

Which argument on the previous page, would you mind linking it to me?

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59748088&postcount=11

Jakkass wrote: »

Although, I think it would be best if this thread be moved to the Christianity forum for a fuller explanation. There is only so much that one individual can explain on his own steam. I'm by no means an authority on Christianity, nor do I claim to be.

Edit: I see it now, I think you should ask for the thread to be moved for a fuller perspective on that one.

I'd really rather not and I want to hear your response

philologos

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Right so is there condemnation or isn't there?

No condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, judgement and condemnation for the sins of the rest of mankind. Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, if you do not believe in Him, there is no salvation. He's given us this option, it's an open invitation, it's either take it or leave it. It's like if you are drowning in a river with strong winds and fast moving volumes of water, and a man in a helicopter drops down a ladder, are you going to take it or leave it?

Sam Vimes wrote: »

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59748088&postcount=11

Don't be scared off by one post.

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I'd really rather not and I want to hear your response

Is my response really more important than any other Christian? I would prefer if we could have a group of us think about it together than just me. I'm honoured Sam , if you don't mind having patience I'm going to have to read the Scriptures for a while before responding to you to clear up my own views on it. I like the way you have challenged me however. This is probably going to strengthen my faith even more though

I want an honest answer however, can you guarantee me that you didn't find this argument already on an atheist site on the internet, and that you thought of it yourself, and read the verses for yourself?

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

No condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, judgement and condemnation for the sins of the rest of mankind. Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, if you do not believe in Him, there is no salvation. He's given us this option, it's an open invitation, it's either take it or leave it. It's like if you are drowning in a river with strong winds and fast moving volumes of water, and a man in a helicopter drops down a ladder, are you going to take it or leave it?

right so all Jesus' talk of forgiveness and dying for our sins so we don't have to etc only applies to believers so it doesn't really overrule the part about killing non-believers does it....?

Jakkass wrote: »

Is my response really more important than any other Christian? I would prefer if we could have a group of us think about it together than just me. I'm honoured Sam , if you don't mind having patience I'm going to have to read the Scriptures for a while before responding to you to clear up my own views on it. I like the way you have challenged me however. This is probably going to strengthen my faith even more though

If you want to start a thread in Christianity asking about it go right ahead. I don't want to do it. If the thread kicks off and isn't full of people saying that God causes earthquakes I might join you, otherwise report back here

Jakkass wrote: »

I want an honest answer however, can you guarantee me that you didn't find this argument already on an atheist site on the internet, and that you thought of it yourself, and read the verses for yourself?

I never said I came up with it myself I did read the verses myself though
When I posted it on AH I put at the top of the post that I got it on youtube and I thought you'd seen that post so I didn't feel the need to say it again. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

So I didn't just copy and paste it, I summarised it from this youtube video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUj8hg5CoSw&feature=related

I got linked to it indirectly through this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKzd_fMqkEs&feature=channel

who, in that video, gives the same response that I and Kayroo both gave to your argument that if you can prove that certain biblical places existed and certain biblical events happened that you can give indication of god's existence. He uses the example of New york being unearthed in 1000 years and people concluding that King Kong existed instead of the one I gave about the Da Vinci Code being true because Paris exists but the point is the same. And he didn't make up the point either, he was quoting someone else. It seems that not many people see the logic in your point

philologos

Sam Vimes wrote: »

right so all Jesus' talk of forgiveness and dying for our sins so we don't have to etc only applies to believers so it doesn't really overrule the part about killing non-believers does it....?

Jesus' ruling is that we are meant to forgive and have mercy to others as we have been forgiven and received mercy from God.

Sam, if you don't mind I'm gonna quote your post and run it by the Christians and some of the atheist posters who lurk there such as Wicknight et al.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

een forgiven and received mercy from God.

Sam, if you don't mind I'm gonna quote your post and run it by the Christians and some of the atheist posters who lurk there such as Wicknight et al.

Sure why not

Jakkass wrote: »

Jesus' ruling is that we are meant to forgive and have mercy to others as we have been forgiven and received mercy from God.

But you just told me that that only applies to believers because we are given the opportunity to redeem ourselves and if we don't we are condemned.........