VRT : 1% Charge For Every Day Not Registered

Skyuser

In the VRO today the guy at the desk was saying that the revenue are clamping down big time on VRT dodging.
They are bringing in a new charge. For every 24 hours after the 24 hours given to register the car, a 1% charge will be placed on the owner.
I didn't ask much questions so I don't know if this is replacing the fine that can currently be given (i think its a maximum 10%).
This would mean that a car valued a €20,000 would get a charge of €200 per day for every day it's not registered.

How they are going to prove when the car was brought into the country, I do not know which is why I think this will not work.

L1011

Sounds like an unintended subvention to Irish Ferries/Stena/P&O in the amount of inbound tickets they're going to sell without needing to actually carry the cars in question...

Owen

Skyuser wrote: »

How they are going to prove when the car was brought into the country, I do not know which is why I think this will not work.

It's pretty easy, to book a ferry ticket with a vehicle, you must provide a reg plate - so they'll just make it cumpulsory to bring a Ferry ticket stub with you when VRTing from now on.

Drummerboy08

I would imagine they'll look at the date onthe invoice from the garage also.

Generally, people dont go on holiday for a year to the UK when they buy their car.

L1011

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

I would imagine they'll look at the date onthe invoice from the garage also.

Generally, people dont go on holiday for a year to the UK when they buy their car.

"I bought it private, no garage docket there bud" will become more common I think.

bladespin

Receipt from the garage would be good enough, brilliant idea I must say.

Gregor Samsa

ned78 wrote: »

they'll just make it cumpulsory to bring a Ferry ticket stub with you when VRTing from now on.

Not many people travel to the Republic from Northern Ireland by ferry.

Drummerboy08

Hmm its a tricky one to say the least.

thethedev

"had no intention of registering it was using it offroad/around the fields/motorsport/display purposes/ its a lada/ was damaged on the way over couldnt get parts until now/ bought it on that date but only got it here today etc etc"
Bound to work and all credible.

shawnee

Very simple , the government puts the onus on you to prove when you got the vehicle. You will probably need to provide some form of evidence, statement from owner, ferry ticket etc, bank a/c withdrawal etc. This is how the taxation system works in general, the onus is on the taxpayer.
Don't forget for a moment that this is the Revenue you are dealing with and they have all sorts of powers.:rolleyes:

L1011

phutyle wrote: »

Not many people travel to the Republic from Northern Ireland by ferry.

http://www.loughfoyleferry.com/

It *is* possible

NiSmO

This post has been deleted.

Skyuser

NiSmO wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You could say the same thing about the current system. They can charge 10% fine of the value of the car. But who is to say you didn't buy it today.

I think it will be more implemented for people they catch and give a warning. If they catch them again 2 months later, the fine would be the price of a family car.

niceirishfella

This all smells of BS tbh.

Buffman

I think sharing a land border with the uk would make this a non-runner.

randomer

Could the Number Plate Recognition system be used here?

I think Irish Citizens caught driving foreign cars could be hit with this new charge.

Beta Ray Bill

That is very annoying to hear. although VRT is suppoed to be paid on the day of import surely people can be given at least 2 or 3 days to sort the VRT?

Just goes to show how bad thing have actually gotten
I read today that new car sales are down 66%... THATS SHOCKING!

flanzer

Skyuser wrote: »

In the VRO today the guy at the desk was saying that the revenue are clamping down big time on VRT dodging.
They are bringing in a new charge. For every 24 hours after the 24 hours given to register the car, a 1% charge will be placed on the owner.
I didn't ask much questions so I don't know if this is replacing the fine that can currently be given (i think its a maximum 10%).
This would mean that a car valued a €20,000 would get a charge of €200 per day for every day it's not registered.

How they are going to prove when the car was brought into the country, I do not know which is why I think this will not work.

Was the guy behind the counter a Green Party Finance spokesperson? Sounds like another bullsh!t idea only they could come out with

Buffman

randomer wrote: »

Could the Number Plate Recognition system be used here?

ANPR couldn't prove who owns or is driving the car at any given time due to the non-irish plate.
And even if it could you'd have to pass one of the few traffic cars with it or the easily avoidable fixed cameras to get caught.

mick.fr

randomer wrote: »

Could the Number Plate Recognition system be used here?

I think Irish Citizens caught driving foreign cars could be hit with this new charge.

It is not like if Irish citizens only were to blame for not registering their cars on Irish plates.
Plenty of people have been driving for years without getting an Irish plate.

mick.fr

grahambo wrote: »

That is very annoying to hear. although VRT is suppoed to be paid on the day of import surely people can be given at least 2 or 3 days to sort the VRT?

Just goes to show how bad thing have actually gotten
I read today that new car sales are down 66%... THATS SHOCKING!

One day is enough, and if there is complications, they deliver you a document that allows you to drive around while you get whatever complication sorted.

smash

It'll never work.... what about lost log books/V5 documents etc...

20/20

One quick test for the VRT man would be to ring your insurance company and ask how long you were insured on the particular car and where was the address you claimed it would be parked , you would be pretty stupid to spend 20 grand on a car and not insure it. My local garage always rings my insurance company to transfare insurance before they loan me a car,it only takes 5 mis. You have to tell insurance companies where cars are parked so they can guage high and low risk areas (its realy an excuse to fleece you). This would make things a lot harder for your claim that the car was only just bought, and another thing the VRT man could just call UK car registration and ask when was the transfare of ownership because the seller wont let you drive around under his ownership (he risks points and fines)

Northern Hope

Please have a look at the following link, and then have your opinions.

http://www.derryjournal.com/inishowen/Customs-crackdown-on-out-of.5139862.jp

Drummerboy08

At the end of the day its tax dodging.

Do you fancy going to court infront of a judge and argue that it is ok to not pay your tax?

If you import a car, just pay your VRT. Its not that hard. One or two hours down in the VRO, and thats if your unlucky.

Anyone who can afford to spend two/three days in the UK looking for their car, but not a few hours in the VRO deserves to have their car impounded IMO.

Beta Ray Bill

mick.fr wrote: »

One day is enough, and if there is complications, they deliver you a document that allows you to drive around while you get whatever complication sorted.

I believe one day enough also
however what if the car arrives in on a Friday afternoon? is the VRO office open on the weekends?

some would say it is tax dodging however once the tax is paid shortly after the car arrives into the country (shortly being at the very most 3 days) I dont see what the problem is.

I think this is the government scraping the bottom of the Barrel... the really need every penny!

PauloMN

grahambo wrote: »

I believe one day enough also
however what if the car arrives in on a Friday afternoon? is the VRO office open on the weekends?

some would say it is tax dodging however once the tax is paid shortly after the car arrives into the country (shortly being at the very most 3 days) I dont see what the problem is.

I think this is the government scraping the bottom of the Barrel... the really need every penny!

It's one working day. It's really quite easy to pay the VRT. Took me half an hour last week, no problems at all.

As for how they would know when the car actually came in, surely they could work with the DVLA in the UK? When a car is exported from the UK, the export section of the V5 goes to the DVLA in Swansea, so the VRO could I guess query the UK reg/VIN against the records there? Wouldn't be that difficult really.

Northern Hope

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

At the end of the day its tax dodging.

Do you fancy going to court infront of a judge and argue that it is ok to not pay your tax?

If you import a car, just pay your VRT. Its not that hard. One or two hours down in the VRO, and thats if your unlucky.

Anyone who can afford to spend two/three days in the UK looking for their car, but not a few hours in the VRO deserves to have their car impounded IMO.

As we are part of the EU and have been for quite a while, the Irish Government are in breach of Art 25 of Freedom of Movement Act.

smash

Northern Hope wrote: »

As we are part of the EU and have been for quite a while, the Irish Government are in breach of Art 25 of Freedom of Movement Act.

No they're not. It's not an import tax, it's a registration tax.

Drummerboy08

Northern Hope wrote: »

As we are part of the EU and have been for quite a while, the Irish Government are in breach of Art 25 of Freedom of Movement Act.

Is there any legal proceedings to prove this?

Here in Ireland, its the law, unfortunately for those who import their car. Whether you believe its illegal or not, it HAS to be paid.

I dont like paying for parking when i go into town, but i do it regardless because i dont want to be punished.

I dont steal from a shop, even though i dont like paying for things, mainly because i dont want to be punished.

I pay my taxes like everyone else, even though i could use the extra few hundred euro a month, because if i didnt pay it i'd be punished.

VRT is a tax to be paid in this country if you import a car. There is no if's and but's about it. You either pay it, and drive in this country legally, or you dont, and you drive around with no Tax, no insurance disc, no NCT (possibly) and you can be called a tax dodger.

Northern Hope

I pay my taxes too, but I found that link interesting.........

Free movement of goods

[edit]Customs duties and taxation
The European Union is a customs union. This means that member states have removed customs barriers between themselves and introduced a common customs policy towards other countries. The overall purpose of the duties is "to ensure normal conditions of competition and to remove all restrictions of a fiscal nature capable of hindering the free movement of goods within the Common Market" (Case 27/67 Fink-Frucht).
[edit]Customs duties
Article 25 TC prohibits member states from levying any duties on goods crossing a border, both goods produced within the EU and those produced outside. Once a good has been imported into the EU from a third country and the appropriate customs duty paid, Article 24 TC dictates that it shall then be considered to be in free circulation between the member states.
Neither the purpose of the charge, nor its name in domestic law, is relevant (Case 7/68 Commission v Italy).
Since the Single European Act, there can be no systematic customs controls at the borders of member states. The emphasis is on post-import audit controls and risk analysis. Physical controls of imports and exports now occur at traders' premises, rather than at the territorial borders.
[edit]Charges having equivalent effect to customs duties
Article 25 of the European Community Treaty prohibits not only customs duties but also charges having equivalent effect. The European Court of Justice defined charge having equivalent effect in Case 24/68 Commission v Italy.
[A]ny pecuniary charge, however small and whatever its designation and mode of application, which is imposed unilaterally on domestic or foreign goods by reason of the fact that they cross a frontier, and which is not a customs duty in the strict sense, constitutes a charge having equivalent effect... even if it is not imposed for the benefit of the state, is not discriminatory or protective in effect and if the product on which the charge is imposed is not in competition with any domestic product. (Case 24/68 Commission v Italy)
A charge is a customs duty if it is proportionate to the value of the goods; if it is proportionate to the quantity, it is a charge having equivalent effect to a customs duty (Case 87/75 Bresciani v Amministrazione Italiana delle Finanze).
There are three exceptions to the prohibition on charges imposed when goods cross a border, listed in Case 18/87 Commission v Germany. A charge is not a customs duty of measure having equivalent effect if:
it relates to a general system of internal dues applied systematically and in accordance with the same criteria to domestic products and imported products alike (Case 132/78 Denkavit v France),
if it constitutes payment for a service in fact rendered to the economic operator of a sum in proportion to the service (Case 158/82 Commission v Denmark), or
subject to certain conditions, if it attaches to inspections carried out to fulfil obligations imposed by Community law (Case 46/76 Bauhuis v Netherlands).

lynchie

steve06 wrote: »

No they're not. It's not an import tax, it's a registration tax.

Spot on.. Its a registration tax for registering the vehicle for use on public roads. VRT is only payable within 24 hours if you intend to use it for that purpose. Bringing in a vehicle from outside the state to be kept on private land does not need to be registered for VRT until such time you intend to use it on public roads.

Edit: After doing some more reading it appears the above is no longer the case. It seems that a resident is no longer permitted to hold an unregistered vehicle within the state which includes holding the vehicle on private property.

Northern Hope

Government Loophole

Drummerboy08

Northern Hope wrote: »

Government Loophole

Still legal though, isnt it?

smash

More than VRT, it's the VAT that gets me on cars with less than 6000 or less than 6 months old.

Why should you have to pay VAT twice within the EU? that's against the EU law surely! I know you can claim the UK VAT back, but it's at what 17% and we're at 21.5%

I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to implement some sort of law on this for regular good to stop people shopping up north.

rugbyman

no disrespect to the original poster, but I doubt very much if this comment that he heard/overheard in the tax office is true.

to all those who commented on it, I ask, do you believe all you hear.

I dont mind eating my hat,shoes and all else if their is a shred of this true.

Regards,rugbyman


p.s. to all the posters who decry non payers of vrt, would you hire a wallpaperer,decorator who wanted to charge you vat?

Drummerboy08

rugbyman wrote: »

p.s. to all the posters who decry non payers of vrt, would you hire a wallpaperer,decorator who wanted to charge you vat?

That would be between him and the taxman.

Del2005

steve06 wrote: »

More than VRT, it's the VAT that gets me on cars with less than 6000 or less than 6 months old.

That's an EU directive not Irish.

Why should you have to pay VAT twice within the EU? that's against the EU law surely! I know you can claim the UK VAT back, but it's at what 17% and we're at 21.5%

I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to implement some sort of law on this for regular good to stop people shopping up north.

You can reclaim the VAT from any country once you can prove that you paid the VAT here on a new vehicle. If it's 2nd hand, why buy something where you know that you'll have to pay double tax, it's EU not Irish laws you're talking about here. If it was Irish only they'd really rip the p***

Seth Brundle

Northern Hope wrote: »

Please have a look at the following link, and then have your opinions.

http://www.derryjournal.com/inishowen/Customs-crackdown-on-out-of.5139862.jp

I wouldn't pay too much heed to the Irish Drivers Association!

rugbyman wrote: »

no disrespect to the original poster, but I doubt very much if this comment that he heard/overheard in the tax office is true.

I would doubt it also as it would need to be copperfastened by legislation to which there is none AFAIK.

smash

Del2005 wrote: »

You can reclaim the VAT from any country once you can prove that you paid the VAT here on a new vehicle. If it's 2nd hand, why buy something where you know that you'll have to pay double tax, it's EU not Irish laws you're talking about here. If it was Irish only they'd really rip the p***

I think you'll find I said "I know you can claim the UK VAT back"

Buffman

20/20 wrote: »

One quick test for the VRT man would be to ring your insurance company and ask how long you were insured on the particular car and where was the address you claimed it would be parked

There are data protection laws which would prevent this.

20/20 wrote: »

the VRT man could just call UK car registration and ask when was the transfare of ownership because the seller wont let you drive around under his ownership (he risks points and fines)

PauloMN wrote: »

As for how they would know when the car actually came in, surely they could work with the DVLA in the UK? When a car is exported from the UK, the export section of the V5 goes to the DVLA in Swansea, so the VRO could I guess query the UK reg/VIN against the records there? Wouldn't be that difficult really.

I can only imagine the amount of red tape bureaucracy it would take for an Irish agency to communicate with a UK agency. And I'd imagine the DVLA have enough to do and would tell revenue where to stick their VRT enquiries!

GalwayShawl

Any truth in the rumour that if you have a Northern Ireland address for a while, you can skip the VRT payment. I heard of people who have rented a cheap room in Derry straight out of daft just to get an address up there?

peasant

GalwayShawl wrote: »

Is it a rumour that if you have a Northern Ireland address for a while, you can skip the VRT payment. ?

fixed your post

and the answer to the new and improved question is: yes


(also, no discussion of illegal activities pls)

Seth Brundle

GalwayShawl wrote: »

Any truth in the rumour that if you have a Northern Ireland address for a while, you can skip the VRT payment. I heard of people who have rented a cheap room in Derry straight out of daft just to get an address up there?

Having seen my wife go through the VRT process when she brought her car down here, you need to have payslips, bills, bank statements, phone records, etc.
The worst mistake to make when trying to get one up on revenue is to believe that you can get one up on them!

peasant

kbannon wrote: »

The worst mistake to make when trying to get one up on revenue is to believe that you can get one up on them!

Shhh ..don't tell anyone. "Learning by doing" is the new thing

Figerty

Hello All,

My first post on this website and I feel this is a good opportuinity to relay my dealings with the VRT office. This is long winded, but has a point. I want to put this online for others in the same boat.

I recently purchased a car in the UK, brought it home to Ireland and presented it to the VRT office.

Here was the crux of the issue; the car was more than six month old and when purchased had marginally less than 6000Km on the clock. However, when it entered the state I legitimatly made sure that it had more than 6000km on the clock by driving it around England before coming home.

I was told the estimated VRT charge (wrong also), but was told it would have to be confirmed by head office in Rosslare. The following day I was informed that not only did I owe VRT but also VAT! The basis for this was that the Revenue go on the mileage recorded on the sales invoice. "this is they way we always do it"

I challanged this and was told quite nastily told that I was wasting my time that revenue were right and I would not be exempt from VAT.

However....I had done my homework and I printed off the VAT and VRT rules applicable to Motor vehicles from the Revenue Website.

The rules state that a car must be more than six months old when purchased AND have more than 6000Km on the clock when it ENTERS the state. I asked the officer to read the paragraph and to check with Rosslare if I had a case. It was pretty black and white that I had no reason to pay VAT.

I showed this to the revenue officer I was dealing with. She went to her boss and was sent back to tell me the VAT was owed and more or less pay up. She took the revenues own document up the line to her bosses boss on my request.

He considered it for a while and then came out to me and attempted to find a flaw in my argument.. Questions such as how far was it from the ferry to the garage (IRREVELANT); I shouldn't have been driving around England (wrong; my car, fully insured my own business what I did with it); how did they know it had enough miles on the clock when I first presented it and that maybe I was driving around putting up miles ( I was hardly going to be stupid enough to present it with too few miles on it).

Eventually they caved in and told me I wasn't due to pay VAT, but I would have to prove that I brought in the car on the day I said I had. Luckily I still had the boarding card,, to which I was told that this was the first one of these they had seen! Obviously still trying to find a hole in my case!

I made the revenue officer come out and check the car before completing the re-registration.

The bottom line is this. The Revenue Commissioners are not applying their own rules properly, they wanted to base the VAT liability on the Invoice mileage (they are not entitled to do this) rather that the mileage on the car when it entered the stage as they are supposed to do. They do not fully know their own rules

How many more have been caught by this misinterpretation of the rules?

It will be interesting to see if I will be 'randomly' selected for tax audit next year.

Dave147

This country's become a complete joke, I've imported countless cars, paid the VRT on all of them bar one sooner or later, never hit with any fines. I've an english reg car outside now waiting to be VRT'ed except I've a problem with the log book, showing an incorrect spec which can save me 500 quid.

The posters attitude here is laughable, bending over to be ****ed by the government, this tax is absolutely ridiculous. I'm quite happy to pay my PRSI and my PAYE and my VAT on products, but paying the government ridiculous amounts of money just so I can drive a BETTER, foreign car on our absolutely ****ty roads is absurd. And what's worse, they don't even supply the fcuking plates!

Can't wait till next year when I emigrate.

*Disclaimer* Most of you here know how I feel about VRT already, so stay off your high horses, thanks.

chele

My best mate is frustrated with the Appeals Process... it was not only painstaking, but also my friend was waiting months for the outcome of the vrt appeal.. anyway the outcome was positive, and now my friend is waiting for a cheque in the post.

Problem is, she has been waiting for 2 mths. She received a letter at the end of feb that her appeal was successful, and that the cheque will be sent from her local VRO office, but she is still waiting!!

Has anyone else been left waiting for months?

Or is she just a 'specific' case?

Biro

Figerty wrote: »

Hello All,

My first post on this website and I feel this is a good opportuinity to relay my dealings with the VRT office. This is long winded, but has a point. I want to put this online for others in the same boat.

I recently purchased a car in the UK, brought it home to Ireland and presented it to the VRT office.

Here was the crux of the issue; the car was more than six month old and when purchased had marginally less than 6000Km on the clock. However, when it entered the state I legitimatly made sure that it had more than 6000km on the clock by driving it around England before coming home.

I was told the estimated VRT charge (wrong also), but was told it would have to be confirmed by head office in Rosslare. The following day I was informed that not only did I owe VRT but also VAT! The basis for this was that the Revenue go on the mileage recorded on the sales invoice. "this is they way we always do it"

I challanged this and was told quite nastily told that I was wasting my time that revenue were right and I would not be exempt from VAT.

However....I had done my homework and I printed off the VAT and VRT rules applicable to Motor vehicles from the Revenue Website.

The rules state that a car must be more than six months old when purchased AND have more than 6000Km on the clock when it ENTERS the state. I asked the officer to read the paragraph and to check with Rosslare if I had a case. It was pretty black and white that I had no reason to pay VAT.

I showed this to the revenue officer I was dealing with. She went to her boss and was sent back to tell me the VAT was owed and more or less pay up. She took the revenues own document up the line to her bosses boss on my request.

He considered it for a while and then came out to me and attempted to find a flaw in my argument.. Questions such as how far was it from the ferry to the garage (IRREVELANT); I shouldn't have been driving around England (wrong; my car, fully insured my own business what I did with it); how did they know it had enough miles on the clock when I first presented it and that maybe I was driving around putting up miles ( I was hardly going to be stupid enough to present it with too few miles on it).

Eventually they caved in and told me I wasn't due to pay VAT, but I would have to prove that I brought in the car on the day I said I had. Luckily I still had the boarding card,, to which I was told that this was the first one of these they had seen! Obviously still trying to find a hole in my case!

I made the revenue officer come out and check the car before completing the re-registration.

The bottom line is this. The Revenue Commissioners are not applying their own rules properly, they wanted to base the VAT liability on the Invoice mileage (they are not entitled to do this) rather that the mileage on the car when it entered the stage as they are supposed to do. They do not fully know their own rules

How many more have been caught by this misinterpretation of the rules?

It will be interesting to see if I will be 'randomly' selected for tax audit next year.

They're scumbags. They know their own rules alright, but they just like to make some up to try and get people to cough up more money.

Traumadoc

I paid my VRT on a car i imported ( I owned it less than 6months so had to payVAT as well from Australia)
I did not mind that, But found the process of getting the car registerd a real PITA, The VRO office is located in West Dublin and They never answered the enquiries phone.
Officially you only have a short time to get the vehicle registered and I was in a panic as I was afraid I could get the car taken off me.

It took me 2 weeks of trying to get the car registered.

chele

Anyone else have the same problem as my mate when looking for appeal money back?