Budget09- College Fees

ontour

Did the fees get brought back in or what changes were made?

timmywex

No mention, i was looking forward to at least finding out and quit all this scaremongering thats about. Hopefully they announce whatever they will do very soon

wolfpawnat

From what Lenihan said, the Min for education will come forward for that. I wish they would just tell us what is going on.

20 Times 20 Times

Xavi6 wrote: »

I already said I didn't have an alternative thanks to the discrimination of the points system.

Though I suppose you're right, I might have been better off being another waster in Arts.

It was your decision to attend a private college and to pay the extortionate fees that they charge , you know what your buying yourself into. You had a chance to attend other third level institutes for no fee , why should others have the same option. Lucky you been able to afford third level education , you had the privilege others wont even get the right !

Xavi6

Sarge wrote: »

It was your decision to attend a private college and to pay the extortionate fees that they charge , you know what your buying yourself into. You had a chance to attend other third level institutes for no fee , why should others have the same option. Lucky you been able to afford third level education , you had the privilege others wont even get the right !

/waves :pac:

You're right I did have the option to attend other third level institutions, but none of them facilitated the course I wanted to do.

Ok my circumstances -

A-grade English student, pass maths B grade, failed physics, D in Biology, C in French and English, C in Business.

Now I wanted to study journalism. Points needed - 475.

I was an average enough student points wise but only the top third or so would make the requirements to get into that course. Why is that fair? Why should I be penalised for not being an academic all rounder? Why is there no alternative to the points system in place? Why if there is free education are there no grants available for those in private college?

The reason points are so high is because you get wasters with 500 points thinking it's 'cool' to do certain courses, pushing the points requirement up and ruling out those who are actually suited. Then they drop out in the first semester cause it requires a bit of hard work. Charge the bastards and you eliminate the jokers.

20 Times 20 Times

Xavi6 wrote: »

/waves :pac:

You're right I did have the option to attend other third level institutions, but none of them facilitated the course I wanted to do.

Ok my circumstances -

A-grade English student, pass maths B grade, failed physics, D in Biology, C in French and English, C in Business.

Now I wanted to study journalism. Points needed - 475.

I was an average enough student points wise but only the top third or so would make the requirements to get into that course. Why is that fair? Why should I be penalised for not being an academic all rounder? Why is there no alternative to the points system in place? Why if there is free education are there no grants available for those in private college?

The reason points are so high is because you get wasters with 500 points thinking it's 'cool' to do certain courses, pushing the points requirement up and ruling out those who are actually suited. Then they drop out in the first semester cause it requires a bit of hard work. Charge the bastards and you eliminate the jokers.

I think we both blindly agree with each other , I don't know about back door courses to journalism and that isn't what we are discussing but I'm sure there is a stepping stone for someone in your shoes.

Again my argument is that the government reintroducing fees would only cripple the poor and the middle class as it is proven that the rich will continue as they always did.

Imagine having twins (mary and john) both want to go to college you can only afford one of them to go !!! what do you do ? That is the scenario facing thousands of households this years and for the foreseeable future.

Again I stand by what i said : Education is a right and not a privilege.

snubbleste

So what date is the minister going to confirm changes in the third-level system?

ontour

wolfpawnat wrote: »

From what Lenihan said, the Min for education will come forward for that. I wish they would just tell us what is going on.

Me too I wonder when we will actually be told? :rolleyes:

helimachoptor

Sarge wrote: »

Again my argument is that the government reintroducing fees would only cripple the poor and the middle class as it is proven that the rich will continue as they always did.

Imagine having twins (mary and john) both want to go to college you can only afford one of them to go !!! what do you do ? That is the scenario facing thousands of households this years and for the foreseeable future.

Again I stand by what i said : Education is a right and not a privilege.

Would agree with what you said, went to an ok school messed around a bit but got the head down and put in a lot of work, got grinds etc for the LC and did pretty well (475). Basically due to a car accident, my mam is unable to work and my father is dead so growing up money was extremely extremely tight. If fees were in place I would not have went to college end of.
As it was I got the local authority grand 900 euro or something, my books cost about half that! During the summer I worked as many hours as god was willing to let me stay awake for so I didnt have to kill myself during term, couldnt afford to go on a J1, at one stage in second year, for about 2 months I was working nights while in college, work from 10pm -6am, sleep for 2 hours bus to college til 5/6 home sleep for a couple of hours and into work.

Plain and simple if fees were there I would not have went to college and neither would my little brother.

Xavi6

Sarge wrote: »

Again I stand by what i said : Education is a right and not a privilege.

Do you think third level education is a right? I personally don't.

20 Times 20 Times

helimachoptor wrote: »

Would agree with what you said, went to an ok school messed around a bit but got the head down and put in a lot of work, got grinds etc for the LC and did pretty well (475). Basically due to a car accident, my mam is unable to work and my father is dead so growing up money was extremely extremely tight. If fees were in place I would not have went to college end of.
As it was I got the local authority grand 900 euro or something, my books cost about half that! During the summer I worked as many hours as god was willing to let me stay awake for so I didnt have to kill myself during term, couldnt afford to go on a J1, at one stage in second year, for about 2 months I was working nights while in college, work from 10pm -6am, sleep for 2 hours bus to college til 5/6 home sleep for a couple of hours and into work.

Plain and simple if fees were there I would not have went to college and neither would my little brother.

That is my point

TheNibbler

Xavi6 wrote: »

/waves :pac:

The reason points are so high is because you get wasters with 500 points thinking it's 'cool' to do certain courses, pushing the points requirement up and ruling out those who are actually suited.

"Wasters" with 500 points??!The points system has its flaws but it would still be a bit unusual for a "waster" to achieve 500 points!

jank

TheNibbler wrote: »

"Wasters" with 500 points??!The points system has its flaws but it would still be a bit unusual for a "waster" to achieve 500 points!

I LOL'd too when I saw that. But thats the way it goes Xavi. Why didnt you put your head down and get the points you wanted like those "cool" wasters.

DamagedTrax

Xavi6 wrote: »

Do you think third level education is a right? I personally don't.

why the hell not?

EVERYONE should have the right to education up to the highest public level. university isnt just for the rich kids.

your comment stinks of elitism.

bobcar61

Thank God the fees were not brought in. I wouldn't have been able to afford to go to college next year as I'm sure banks wouldn't give out loans as freely.

Xavi6

jank wrote: »

I LOL'd too when I saw that. But thats the way it goes Xavi. Why didnt you put your head down and get the points you wanted like those "cool" wasters.

It wasn't a case of simply putting the head down. I did that, but people aren't always great at everything. I was average at maths and science subjects so was never going to hit the required marks for the course I wanted.

Ok the 'wasters' comment with regard to 500 points was a bit OTT but you know as well as I do that there are people doing courses that they aren't that interested in and end up dropping out early on. They have bumped up the points already with their applications, even though it isn't really for them. Not really that fair is it?

I see there being two options -

1. Bring in fees to make people think more carefully when applying. Doesn't have to be a big fee, just enough to make them choose wisely.

or

2. Make courses portfolio based as well as points. For example, for journalism I could have presented stories/articles etc I had written and that be taken into consideration.

IMO the points system is far too black and white to allow everyone a fair go. Why should an A standard English student be prevented from doing a course they are clearly suited to just because they aren't good at physics, which they will never use after school anyway?

JenniFurr

I'm boned fees or no fees anyway. I lost my job. My parents don't support me and I'm too young to qualify for the independent mature student category on the grant application form. The only way I may get it is if I can get a solicitor to legally emancipate me and god know what the fees for that would be!

So I can't go to college! not unless I start selling myself on the street. But some slave traded Polish bitch would probably undercut me! Grr recession..*mumble mumble continues into rant*

amacachi

Few things, I got 475 and am very much what most of you would call a "waster". Also the points system is a joke. A better system (IMO) can be found across the Irish Sea.

I think fees should be brought back in, education is a right to a point, once you're not a child you should have to provide for it yourself. Having said that there should be loans etc. available, that way no-one is going to go to college knowing they'll have a nice debt at the end, and those who do (like me) might appreciate college a bit more.

Then again on the other side there's apprentices getting over 500 a week when they can't find work, not sure how it's fair to pay apprentices still in training so much while not paying students.

timmywex

bobcar61 wrote: »

Thank God the fees were not brought in. I wouldn't have been able to afford to go to college next year as I'm sure banks wouldn't give out loans as freely.

They will be introduced in some shape or form, its just whenever they get around to annoncing it!

Larianne

I don't think fees should be brought back in but I do think the selection system for uni/college should be changed and more like the UCAS system where applicants must write a personal statement and have work experience in their area of choice behind them too. I thought you needed a portfolio for Journalism in DIT, no? Well that's just wrong!

You can't really blame 17/18 year olds for starting a course and then not liking it. A lot people don't know what they want to do at that age and then put a course down because it sounds good or are pressurised into doing it. Some people get surprised and end up with better grades. Most people seem to think that going to college straight after school is what you should do whereas I think taking a gap year out - whether it's to travel or work for a year is a much better idea and you get to know yourself more and what you want to do.

Bringing back the fees will stop people going to college, where they'll end up going on the dole as there's no jobs, won't be able to better themselves and it's just a vicious cycle. Those that do go and have to pay will end up taking out loans and end up in debt before they even finish college.

I'm returning to college this year as a mature student and if the fees come back in I'll have to take out a loan. Already working flat out as it is.

nmango

i hope they dont bring in fees. i am going to college next year but wont be able to if they bring in fees. if they do bring in fees most people will be on the dole. this will only cost the govt more money

JenniFurr

From what I can tell the best option at the moment seems to be go on the dole for the year (that's if you're over 20 'cause of the new budget) and take the year out so you can get back to education allowance! Money for going to college. Although I'm sure if I did it the year I'd go back it would be take away Still considering it though

amacachi

nmango wrote: »

i hope they dont bring in fees. i am going to college next year but wont be able to if they bring in fees. if they do bring in fees most people will be on the dole. this will only cost the govt more money

Could you not get a loan if they're made available?

ontour

amacachi wrote: »

Could you not get a loan if they're made available?

Hopefully if they do bring fees back they do bring in some way for people to be able to pay them. When should people fill in BTEA forms if they're going to college in Sept? Im prayin I qualify for this but dont think I will

amacachi

ontour wrote: »

Hopefully if they do bring fees back they do bring in some way for people to be able to pay them. When should people fill in BTEA forms if they're going to college in Sept? Im prayin I qualify for this but dont think I will

How long you been signing on? You have to be 21 and be in receipt of the dole or whichever for 53 weeks I think.

ontour

I think its down to 9months now and I'll be ten months come September. Im going to get the form tommorrow but I dont know if that to early to fill it in.

Knifey_Spoony

ontour wrote: »

I think its down to 9months now and I'll be ten months come September. Im going to get the form tommorrow but I dont know if that to early to fill it in.

According to www.studentfinance.ie it's 12 months.

Has it really been reduced to 9months?

amacachi

Well I heard during the speech that it was going to be made available earlier, whether that means from an earlier age or less time out of work I don't know. Not sure if it's already been reduced or will be soon.

Knifey_Spoony

amacachi wrote: »

Well I heard during the speech that it was going to be made available earlier, whether that means from an earlier age or less time out of work I don't know. Not sure if it's already been reduced or will be soon.

I really hope you're right!
What is the date they use anyway...is it 1st Sept?
As in, you have to be claiming benefits for 12 months by 1st Sept?
Or is there an earlier cut-off date they use?

I'll be about 11 months on 1st Sept...so fingers crossed it has been reduced.

amacachi

Knifey_Spoony wrote: »

I really hope you're right!
What is the date they use anyway...is it 1st Sept?
As in, you have to be claiming benefits for 12 months by 1st Sept?
Or is there an earlier cut-off date they use?

I'll be about 11 months on 1st Sept...so fingers crossed it has been reduced.

It's whenever you apply as far as I know. You can't apply til you've been accepted anyway. It'll be twelve months for me on the 1st of september. It's not a statutory payment and I heard of them being a bit flexible on the time in times past. I'm just glad it wasn't abolished tbh.

JenniFurr

JenniFurr wrote: »

But some slave traded Polish bitch would probably undercut me!

WTF? Have a fortnight off.

Knifey_Spoony

amacachi wrote: »

It's whenever you apply as far as I know. You can't apply til you've been accepted anyway. It'll be twelve months for me on the 1st of september. It's not a statutory payment and I heard of them being a bit flexible on the time in times past. I'm just glad it wasn't abolished tbh.

Yeah, thank god it wasn't abolished!
Soooo if I put off applying until early Sept, I'll have 11 months of social welfare payments (if I am still on them by then), and so, should hopefully qualify.
Fingers crossed you are right about it being reduced to 9 months!

ontour

Knifey_Spoony wrote: »

Yeah, thank god it wasn't abolished!
Soooo if I put off applying until early Sept, I'll have 11 months of social welfare payments (if I am still on them by then), and so, should hopefully qualify.
Fingers crossed you are right about it being reduced to 9 months!

I wonder does it take long to process it? I was gonna apply before that but I think I would be better off waiting so it says 9months on the form instead of applying now and it saying four months..

Swamps

i tought you had to wait until you had accepted your course for the academic year during the summer? as on the bte1 form it requires for you to put in the course your doing, which i dont think you will know for certain until you get your offers during the summer and accept one.

Though you may be able to put in the one you think you will be doing and take a chance that you get offered it. Or go in at a later date and tell them the course after having given the form in at an earlier date, but that might get messy.

Infomation on it including the form near bottom:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/back-to-education/back_to_education_allowance

amacachi

Swamps wrote: »

i tought you had to wait until you had accepted your course for the academic year during the summer? as on the bte1 form it requires for you to put in the course your doing, which i dont think you will know for certain until you get your offers during the summer and accept one.

Though you may be able to put in the one you think you will be doing and take a chance that you get offered it. Or go in at a later date and tell them the course after having given the form in at an earlier date, but that might get messy.

Infomation on it including the form near bottom:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/back-to-education/back_to_education_allowance

Don't think anyone above (me included) is going to be applying earlier than they have to tbh. :P Ya can't apply til you're offered and have been accepted into somewhere, but that's in August, most people seem to be planning to apply in September which seems to be fine, once they've been on the dole long enough.

Knifey_Spoony

amacachi wrote: »

Don't think anyone above (me included) is going to be applying earlier than they have to tbh. :P Ya can't apply til you're offered and have been accepted into somewhere, but that's in August, most people seem to be planning to apply in September which seems to be fine, once they've been on the dole long enough.

I'm applying for a postgrad course, so I dont have to wait for cao offers or anything like that...but yeah, I'm going to leave it until Aug to apply I reckon, to make sure I have the full 9months (if it has been reduced to 9months).

(I'm still trying to find out if the rumour about it being reduced to 9 months is true )

amacachi

Knifey_Spoony wrote: »

I'm applying for a postgrad course, so I dont have to wait for cao offers or anything like that...but yeah, I'm going to leave it until Aug to apply I reckon, to make sure I have the full 9months (if it has been reduced to 9months).

(I'm still trying to find out if the rumour about it being reduced to 9 months is true )

Aye it's a bit of a pain. Same with the fees, I don't think they're a big deal but an announcement early would be nice, rather than waiting and putting it off.

speedboatchase

Similar situation to Xavi, I got 100 points in the Leaving for English but couldn't do a Journalism course here - how does that make sense? Did two years PLC at BCFE for a Journalism Diploma and then two expensive years in England to finally get that degree since there was absolutely nothing in place for me to legimately get that degree in my own country. Crazy situation and must be sorted out asap

Leonid

speedboatchase wrote: »

Similar situation to Xavi, I got 100 points in the Leaving for English but couldn't do a Journalism course here - how does that make sense? Did two years PLC at BCFE for a Journalism Diploma and then two expensive years in England to finally get that degree since there was absolutely nothing in place for me to legimately get that degree in my own country. Crazy situation and must be sorted out asap

I disagree. The points system, though flawed, is far better than alternative systems found abroad. You did well in English,but you weren't the only one. Should everyone who got an A in English be able to do a course in Journalism? Would there even be enough places for them? Many secondary students have to work hard at subjects they are not naturally good at, in order to get a course they want/are suited to.

speedboatchase

In fairness I was the only person that year to get the 100 points and yes, if you get 90+ points in a given subject you should be allowed to be offered a place on the course at least.

"Many secondary students have to work hard at subjects they are not naturally good at, in order to get a course they want/are suited to"

This is probably where we disagree. My lack of expertise in French or Irish should not have been a factor as I can assure you they never ever came up when I finally took the course. People should be encouraged to follow their innate kills as far as possible rather than wasting years trying to imrpove in a course they knowingly have no interest in simply to reach a goal in which it will never be applied.

backtoeducation

Leonid wrote: »

I disagree. The points system, though flawed, is far better than alternative systems found abroad. You did well in English,but you weren't the only one. Should everyone who got an A in English be able to do a course in Journalism? Would there even be enough places for them? Many secondary students have to work hard at subjects they are not naturally good at, in order to get a course they want/are suited to.

Well yes, someone who gets an A in English be able to do journalism. Of course they should as the subject is 100% directly relevant to the job. As opposed to someone who gets a C- in English but gets to do journalism as their marks in other subjects bring them up and make them eligible. The guy who got an A in English is far more suited to the job than the guy who got a C- but got higher marks overall.

ditmature

To clarify on the BTEA:

The Back To Education Allowance or BTEA can be paid to those who have been in receipt of social welfare payments and wish to return to full time education. Typically a claimant would have to be in receipt of social welfare payments for 12 consecutive months or more prior to returning to college, but there can be exceptions to this rule, usually in cases involving statutory redundancy.

As of the Emergency Budget of 2009, the qualifying period for the BTEA has been reduced from 12 months to 9 months. This is contingent on the applicant getting a written recommendation from their Jobs Facilitator that they should return to college to do their chosen course. Ask at your local Social Welfare Office for more details!

Mind you, this has not been put into writing yet, but in conversations I've had with the BTEA people over the phone they have confirmed its veracity.

Bob