Why or why not?

pyro940

Kata, patterns or forms,

Why or why not?

Just interested to hear peoples veiws.

I really used to enjoy the solo version in the wado ryu and I can see the learning value of the two person "kata" of what I do now,

However I know the realality based school of bjj total discount them and that mauy tai guys see them as a compete waste of time.

So I'm just interest as to what people make of them? an out date train excersise or a door way to the old "Budo" (to use a Japanese term) ways, or none of the above.

Regards,

Boring, waste of time.

Furious-Dave

Deleted User wrote: »

Boring, waste of time.

Ye it's been done to death and I for one refuse to waste anymore of my time on it. Sorry Pyro.

pearsquasher

In the Bujinkan at least and in most classical jujutsu or koryu schools of Japan, i.e not karate, kata are short combatitive paired drills that can be explored, modified and studied through regular dojo practice - no different to the many bjj drills and other martial arts paired practices, no doubt. With weapons, kata are a good way of exploring the principles behind the use of arms while staying safe in the dojo environment. Classical Japanese weapons kata must have a mirror in most other weapons based art's drills and forms.

The idea of solo kata for performance sake, for memorising, for learning off, is totally alien to how Japanese budo is practiced. There's no room for discussion when with these arts, the kata pretty much IS the art in motion. Mastering the principles in a kata IS mastering the art, and, far form being boring, in studying the art for 20 years I've yet to even come close to thinking about the 100's of kata I'm exposed to as being anything other than an excellent chance to explore very interesting martial movement, tactics and strategies both armed and unarmed.

Tim_Murphy

They are of no practical value but if you enjoy doing them then go for it. Many find them boring, others enjoy them, its down to the individual.

I witnessed one well known MMA coach bust out a TKD pattern in a cage not long ago. We're still trying to figure out how to market the whole Kage Kata thing.

pearsquasher

TKD patterns, solo karate kata, performance based kung-fu forms are one thing.....

Combatitve, weapons based, PAIRED, active, "alive", adaptable jujutsu/kobudo kata are whole different beast, need to be "coached" under qualified teachers and ARE the embodiment of Japanese (mainland) classical martial arts. From the famous Katori Shinto Ryu , to the Sword/Jutte schools of Kuroda Tetzusan, Bujinkan's 9 classical schools and the Shinkage sword and taijutsu diciplines........ Kata are THE way the practice is transmitted and the practical use of these things only goes as far as the amount of study put into them under the constant, and lengthy supervision of the dojo you belong to.

Kata get a very poor name from the contemporary and seemingly poorly practiced and understood patterns expressed through some modern non-mainland Japan martial arts. At least people like Karate pioneer Patrick McCarthy have seemingly gone back to the roots of these things to discover the real foundation of, in his case, Okinawan Karate kata. Other arts, undiluted by exposer to the West and not available in every town in the modern Western hemisphere, have retained their original kata practice which contains the arts practical principles as gleaned by the founders and continuing contributors of the arts.

This idea of .. "well if you like them that's ok" is like saying... "Sure - if you enjoy cooking but feel the need to read recipes, thats not my problem".

Tim_Murphy

Combatitve, weapons based, PAIRED, active, "alive", adaptable jujutsu/kobudo kata are whole different beast, need to be "coached" under qualified teachers and ARE the embodiment of Japanese (mainland) classical martial arts. From the famous Katori Shinto Ryu , to the Sword/Jutte schools of Kuroda Tetzusan, Bujinkan's 9 classical schools and the Shinkage sword and taijutsu diciplines........ Kata are THE way the practice is transmitted and the practical use of these things only goes as far as the amount of study put into them under the constant, and lengthy supervision of the dojo you belong to.

Do you links to any videos of these? I'd love to have a look.

This idea of .. "well if you like them that's ok" is like saying... "Sure - if you enjoy cooking but feel the need to read recipes, thats not my problem".

That's a rather poor analogy. Kata was not to fighting what recipes are to cooking.

bilbo79

pearsquasher wrote: »

TKD patterns, solo karate kata, performance based kung-fu forms are one thing.....

Combatitve, weapons based, PAIRED, active, "alive", adaptable jujutsu/kobudo kata are whole different beast, need to be "coached" under qualified teachers and ARE the embodiment of Japanese (mainland) classical martial arts. From the famous Katori Shinto Ryu , to the Sword/Jutte schools of Kuroda Tetzusan, Bujinkan's 9 classical schools and the Shinkage sword and taijutsu diciplines........ Kata are THE way the practice is transmitted and the practical use of these things only goes as far as the amount of study put into them under the constant, and lengthy supervision of the dojo you belong to.

Edit quote-My art is all about Kata and therefore it is amazing!
And now i feel validated doing my dancing.

pearsquasher

The "Katori shinto" video I linked to shows paired armed kata.

For Bujinkan kata, cooking recipes are an excellent analogy.

A recipe on its own is not going to provide you with something, say, Jamie Oliver can whip up.

To really produce something tasty you need not only to follow the recipe exactly but to have quality ingredients (basic physical attributes), experience with the techniques of the chef (a good relationship with an instructor), a experienced knowledge of taste, texture, equipment etc (time in the dojo). even a cooking program(kata video) is a poor representation how to achieve a splendid meal. MA and cooking are reallly a doing, being-there lving thing. Video are only really good for after-the-fact reference.

The only way to experience the kata I'm talking about is to practice over a long period. There's just too many physical and mental nuances going on.

pearsquasher

To all the kata-I'm-talking-about nay-sayers, I can guarantee you're pretty much doing the same kind of thing with your paired sparring drills and combos.

Don't you do things in pairs, physcially, that you re-visit with new understanding and are able to apply in a more random setting once the priciples have been ingrained. .....So you don't call them "kata"...

The solo pattern thing has LOT to answer for in this image of "impractical" "dancing" that kata generally give. This is NOT what I'm talking about at all.

Damo W

pyro940 wrote: »

Kata, patterns or forms,

Why or why not?

Just interested to hear peoples veiws.

I really used to enjoy the solo version in the wado ryu and I can see the learning value of the two person "kata" of what I do now,

However I know the realality based school of bjj total discount them and that mauy tai guys see them as a compete waste of time.

So I'm just interest as to what people make of them? an out date train excersise or a door way to the old "Budo" (to use a Japanese term) ways, or none of the above.

Regards,

Hi,

Have a read of this and see what you think?

http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/do_you_know_what_it_takes.htm

An interesting collection of comments on kata here in the page titled 'Myth Busting'
http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/Myth_Busting.htm

pearsquasher

Damo w posted an article by the Karate pioneer I mentioned, Patrick MCarthy, who incidentily, trained for a period in Katori Shinto Ryu in Japan. I'm guessing that thats' where he would have seen a wholly different approach to training via paired combat kata, that would no doubt have influenced him in his investigation of kata practice within his own island karate styles and how they became different to the mainland koryu practice.

Damo W

pyro940 wrote: »

Kata, patterns or forms,

Why or why not?

Just interested to hear peoples veiws.

I really used to enjoy the solo version in the wado ryu and I can see the learning value of the two person "kata" of what I do now,

However I know the realality based school of bjj total discount them and that mauy tai guys see them as a compete waste of time.

So I'm just interest as to what people make of them? an out date train excersise or a door way to the old "Budo" (to use a Japanese term) ways, or none of the above.

Regards,

The Lost Art
McCarthy Sensei postulates that the original intention set forth by the early pioneers of our tradition was to have learners study the HAPV so that they were able to understand how tactical strategies and application practices were developed and employed. The birth of commercial martial arts schools provided a safe environment in which HAPV could be systematically recreated and tactical strategies methodically re-enacted in two-person drills.
Such efforts were repeated with gradual or exponential degrees of intensity, depending entirely on the individual aptitude of each learner, until a functional spontaneity unfolded and the learner developed the competency to effectively use the application principles irrespective of the HAPV. Through this embryonic process early professional teachers first recognized the benefit of ritualizing the solo re-enactment of these defensive practices into individual model responses.

“Kata used to mean, “symbol,” and was written in the same way. The physical movement was just a vehicle to understand and identify the internal principle.”

Intended as mnemonic mechanisms, model responses helped innovators remember and organize the plethora of tactical strategies they developed. When martial arts schools became a popular trend in China, quanfa instructors depended heavily upon these model responses as principal tools of instruction.
Linking together myriad model responses allowed learners to express varying degrees of skill while improving physical, mental, and holistic conditioning, hence strengthening the overall learning process.
In an effort to establish and standardize core curricula in these early schools, pioneers formalized unique model responses into creative geometrical shapes.

In this phenomenon we find the cradle, which gave birth to kata.

However, kata were never originally developed to impart the actual lesson, but rather to culminate what had already been taught.

This changed radically when attention shifted from the classical one-on-one, or, small group hands-on style instruction, to drilling huge groups of students in the schoolyards of turn-of-the-century Okinawa.
Training curricula were simplified and kata became the principal tool used for fostering physical fitness and social conformity in Okinawa’s school system.

Khannie

My first instinct was: Waste of time....BUT.....I did my first wai kru (dance before fight at muay thai events) at the weekend. Really enjoyed doing it and it helped to relax me and set me up nicely for the fight.

pearsquasher

Bingo..... So unlike Okinawa, which managed to export it's provincial martial art globally, the Japanese mainland arts, which didn't conform to mass physical education practices or sportification, kept their core paired-kata combatitive nature. Luckily, in the Bujinkan, we do have a system of classical complete martial arts, that has been exported globally, while still retaining it's undiluted, combatitive priciples. This is because all teachers are required to attend training In Japan and learn one-on-one the kata from the masters there. I hope that the picture of actual kata practice is becoming clearer and that the "dance" "solo" version popularised in the martial art boom era's is seen as pretty much an anomaly, a result of various cultural trends.....

Tim_Murphy

pearsquasher wrote: »

The "Katori shinto" video I linked to shows paired armed kata.

Sorry, totally missed that link. Had a quick look (will watch properly later), yes those drills are quite different from say Shotokan or TKD kata.

columok

Pearsquasher,
re: the katori shinto ryu video

Would I be wrong in saying that in those 2 people "katas" they are nonetheless doing prescripted attacks and responses.

If they were "sparring" or duelling you would expect a lot more mistakes, injuries, feinting etc. I don't see how the style of training shown in the video efficiently improves the ability to swordfight etc. It wouldn't really improve reaction speed to something unexpected. Or significantly improve striking accuracy or speed.

Am I missing something?

pearsquasher

Would I be wrong in saying that in those 2 people "katas" they are nonetheless doing prescripted attacks and responses.

Yes.... thats what a kata is... a prescripted set of attacks and responses.

It's NOT: if-you-do-this-this-is-how-I-will-defend-myself...

Kata are more for learning techniques, timings, openings, shieldings, guards, angles, distance, footwork, structure, posture, spirit, balance etc. These attributes ARE whats used in a more random encounter. The kata is a place for studying these things in a "laboratory setting". The dojo IS a lab.. it's not a real fighting space. Bujinkan and Koryu practicioners know this from day one.

Bujinkan kata contain all the Bujinkan teachings. There are many hidden and unobvious attributes being learned too that come from the interaction of both participants as opposed to be seen from the outside observer. These kata aren't FOR observers, they're for the people participating to feel their way through.

In a sword kata you KNOW what the attack is but when it comes at you at full speed you still need a lot of practice to apply the attributes you're learning correctly.. even half speed can be tricky. Remember you need to be safe from the attack while still in a postion to counter - if that's part of the kata. And you need to do all this smoothly (excess movement is a no-no - leads to holes, inbalance, off-timing etc)

If they were "sparring" or duelling you would expect a lot more mistakes, injuries, feinting etc.

True. You'd only change the variable of a kata after you bloody well knew you mastered it. Kata sometimes have 1 or 2 formal variations in which some part of it is changed. An opening is exposed, an attack is altered etc. These must be mastered too. Some kata in the Bujinkan have the instruction - "any attack" - so part of the kata is the strategic setting up of the attacker to be in a position where the prescribed responce is "easy".

I've asked senior Bujinkan teachers - "do you spar full speed with wooden weapons after stuudying kata for a long time?"

They said "about once a year and there is always injury". It's a no-brainer that if randomness is introduced with wooden/metal weapons... injury occurs.
We do have padded weapons but the classic pitfall there is people do things with safety weapons that you would never do with metal/wood. Just look at Kendo for example.......high speed, "random" duelling. Give them real swords and they'd be less inclined to take risks.

The Bujinkan at least, has the facility to allow some kata to be played with and altered. I myself thaught a unarmed kata last night. It took 2 mins to show it about 3 times. I let 4, 5 people feel what it was like. I let them practice it for 20 mins, I corrected things in it for 10 mins and let them practice it again for another 10 mins. Then I added a weapon and showed them how the kata had to change. They were certainly not learning a prescribed defence. The were learning, in this case
- moving here is safe in this case
- move this foot this way to move your head away
- strike here and here to effect the body this way
- this leads to this unbalancing etc

With everybody I tried this on, the end was different. But the kata is the same. There's inbuilt room for adapatability.

It wouldn't really improve reaction speed to something unexpected.

After 20 years training like this... I think it does. So do the generations of koryu/bujinkan practicioners. But you have to train correctly as they do in Japan.

Or significantly improve striking accuracy or speed.

Ditto.

Am I missing something?

Yes.. practice in a classical Japanese kobudo or Bujinkan over a long period with personal instruction.

TKD SC

pearsquasher wrote: »

Kata are more for learning techniques, timings, openings, shieldings, guards, angles, distance, footwork, structure, posture, spirit, balance etc. These attributes ARE whats used in a more random encounter. The kata is a place for studying these things in a "laboratory setting". The dojo IS a lab.. it's not a real fighting space. Bujinkan and Koryu practicioners know this from day one.

Above is fair enough, and seems to tie in closely to say drills, whereby you drill certain move / attack / defence/ counter or whatever and as you say above you have to get the timing, distance, footwork etc all right and they are good attributes but I'd suggest it's hard to really become proficient in "drilling" / "kata" (kata in the above sense) alone and things can really really change then in a random encounter...

Excluding wooden / metal weapons, is randomness ever introduced? I.e, free sparring / "random duelling"?

pearsquasher wrote: »

The were learning, in this case
- moving here is safe in this case
- move this foot this way to move your head away
- strike here and here to effect the body this way
- this leads to this unbalancing etc

With everybody I tried this on, the end was different. But the kata is the same. There's inbuilt room for adapatability.

Same as my above point, there may be room for adaptability and you're learning relevant attributes, but again without free sparring / random duelling then unsure if this learning is really true / effective learning?

Thanks

Simon

pearsquasher

Excluding wooden / metal weapons, is randomness ever introduced? I.e, free sparring / "random duelling"?

Same as my above point, there may be room for adaptability and you're learning relevant attributes, but again without free sparring / random duelling then unsure if this learning is really true / effective learning?

As for sparring/ total randomess after learning unarmed kata..

- Yes it is done in the Bujinkan but I can't speak for every other kobudo (classical martial ar e.g. Katori Shinto). A practioner did tell me that with Katori they try and PERFECT the kata with little variation in the dojo. Fair enough. Bujinkan adapts further as far as I can tell. I don't tell them they're wrong though

- To what extent sparring happens depends each instructor, the students capability at doing basic kata etc.

- Some kata explicitly state "attack in any manner" but these are advanced kata and previous levels of kata need to be practiced a LOT first. They lead into each other.. are progressive and make sense.

Kobudo is not designed for dueling. We see there always being more than one opponent and there always being weapons.. in a real fight. You HAVE to assume this.

So the attributes learned in kata trainig are geared for this... NOT duelling although to an outside obsever a kata looks like a short 2 person duel. It's not.

I 100% agree that sparring is another attribute enhancer and it is indeed done in the Bujinkan.. Kata and drills are 90% though. No point doing sparring if you can't do the kata correct - and by kata i mean "the attributes learned". Bujinkan teachers often teach a kata and then break it down into smaller drlls.

Sports martial arts have more sparring because that's what they're geared for - rule-based non-lethal, weaponless, one-one one dueling. Kobudo is for no-rules, lethal-intent, possible-multiple last-resort combat. The training IS going to be different. I've done my fair share (10 years - stand-up, ground) of the sports/sparring thing... I KNOW the difference.

Damo W

Here is an example of a Koryu Uchinadi two person drill for a kata, in this instance the kata is Kururunfa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEvLNamPC3o