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Valves. Some advice please.

  • 05-04-2009 9:27pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 513 ✭✭✭


    The Matamp is going in for a service soon, probably to Martin Nolan, he seems to be well regarded.
    Im going to get it re-valved while its in and was wondering if someone could put valve choices, and more specifically their sound characteristics, into laymans terms.
    Its currently fitted with 6CA7s which from what I can gather are a variation on the trusty old EL34, the rockers valve of choice.
    Ideally I'd like something a bit 'cleaner' sounding which can still rock out when the gain is cranked a bit. I basically play clean a lot more than I used to, endlessly noodle 'the blues', but I still like to pretend I'm Angus Young sometimes too!
    So theres 6L6s, 6V6s, EL34s, KT66 & KT77s and more Im sure. I'd greatly appreciate if anyone with experience could chip in with a bit of advice.

    *technical terms like dissapation etc. are wasted on me- keep it simple!!


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,528 ✭✭✭OK-Cancel-Apply


    As far as I'm aware, KT66 and EL34 are very close.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 880 ✭✭✭Paolo_M


    6CA7 is the American for EL34.

    6V6 has a lower wattage rating which will translate less clean headroom/power output and it has a similar tone to the 6L6. The new JJ 6V6s are supposed to have a very similar tone to it's bigger brother, 6L6. Heard a few sound samples, impressed and gonna base my next build on them.

    6L6 will be clean and bold, think Fender but also Mesa Boogie. Mesa gain is from the preamp so listen to their clean tones, like Andy Timmons et al. They have a thick bottom and tasty highs that an EL34 just doesn't deliver.

    KT77 have more low end than EL34 and are cleaner sounding IMO. In my JCM 800 they're somehwere between the EL34 and type 6L6 tones.

    KT66 are also cleaner sounding than EL34 (most valves seem to be :pac:), though I've no direct experience with them. These were used on the "Blues Breaker" Marshall amp.

    My suggestion is that KT77 would be a good compromise. You'd get more bottom and cleans but you'll still coax a bit of AC/DC or Van Halen if you push it.
    They do bias hotter than EL34s, and get a bad rap for failing prematurely. I fitted them in the 800 about a year and have gigged it many times since with no problems, so I think it's just that people don't bother biasing them properly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭Seziertisch


    6v6s offer smokier cleans than 6l6s. They are really at their best just on the cusp of clean and crunch, although I have found that they can get a little ratty (whether this is desirable or not is a question of taste) at higher gain settings compared to 6l6s.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭darrenw5094


    www.eurotubes.com is your man. Email the guy there for advice.

    There is a whole list of valve specs. on there.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 513 ✭✭✭boycey


    Thanks for the replies lads.
    Paolo- thank you. Exactly the kind of laymans advice I was looking for.

    I think I'll check out those Eurotubes lads and Watford Valves too, its looking like Ive sold some gear so I'll be ordering sooner rather than later.
    I reckon I'll give the KT77s a go, a few lads on the Matamp forum suggested them too.

    Thanks again lads.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭darrenw5094


    Paolo_M wrote: »
    6CA7 is the American for EL34.

    6V6 has a lower wattage rating which will translate less clean headroom/power output and it has a similar tone to the 6L6. The new JJ 6V6s are supposed to have a very similar tone to it's bigger brother, 6L6. Heard a few sound samples, impressed and gonna base my next build on them.

    6L6 will be clean and bold, think Fender but also Mesa Boogie. Mesa gain is from the preamp so listen to their clean tones, like Andy Timmons et al. They have a thick bottom and tasty highs that an EL34 just doesn't deliver.

    KT77 have more low end than EL34 and are cleaner sounding IMO. In my JCM 800 they're somehwere between the EL34 and type 6L6 tones.

    KT66 are also cleaner sounding than EL34 (most valves seem to be :pac:), though I've no direct experience with them. These were used on the "Blues Breaker" Marshall amp.

    My suggestion is that KT77 would be a good compromise. You'd get more bottom and cleans but you'll still coax a bit of AC/DC or Van Halen if you push it.
    They do bias hotter than EL34s, and get a bad rap for failing prematurely. I fitted them in the 800 about a year and have gigged it many times since with no problems, so I think it's just that people don't bother biasing them properly.

    Where would the EL84 valve come in? Mesa use them in some of their amps.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭punchdrunk


    alright chief,just incase you hadn't noticed it but i remember from when i owned it that it takes four power amp valves,two pairs in octal sockets
    I'm 99% sure that it's designed that you can have two different pairs in it at the same time selectable from the front by the out 1 in 2 switch
    worth checking out!
    i do miss the reverb on that beastie


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭punchdrunk


    darren el84's are quite low wattage (bout 15 watts a pair) and tonally can be a bit boxy sounding in a small amp

    but i love em in my AD30 for grungy riffage :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭darrenw5094


    punchdrunk wrote: »
    darren el84's are quite low wattage (bout 15 watts a pair) and tonally can be a bit boxy sounding in a small amp

    but i love em in my AD30 for grungy riffage :D

    Boxy?? Is that good boxy or bad boxy?

    Still better than the popular MG amps.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 880 ✭✭✭Paolo_M


    Where would the EL84 valve come in? Mesa use them in some of their amps.

    I think the "boxy" bit comes mainly from the fact that EL84 get used in lower powered amps and often with smaller speakers/speaker cabs which can feel quite boxy.
    The amp I'm building at the moment is using a pair of EL84s and I sure hope "boxy" isn't a word people use to describe the tone!! :)

    EL84s are a bit like a little brother to EL34s. Less power and the same "break up at the drop of a hat" type vibe. Think AC30s, Matchless, Lone Star Special, nice sparkling cleans and crisp and crunchy when overdriven.

    The more I mess around with these things the more it seems that the circuits RCA/GE et al provided as samples have dictated a lot of the preceived tone of certain valves. For example, the sample circuits rarely show an EL84 with negative feedback. The AC30 has none, the single ended EL84 amps have none and so they sound a certain way, and not necessarily because of the valve itself.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 513 ✭✭✭boycey


    punchdrunk wrote: »
    alright chief,just incase you hadn't noticed it but i remember from when i owned it that it takes four power amp valves,two pairs in octal sockets
    I'm 99% sure that it's designed that you can have two different pairs in it at the same time selectable from the front by the out 1 in 2 switch
    worth checking out!
    i do miss the reverb on that beastie

    Cheers Punch- one of the lads on the Matamp forum was telling me about that and its an interesting idea. I was all set to call the factory today and like a tool left their number at home. I'll give 'em a call tomorrow and see what they think. Im thinking KT77's and 6L6's might be interesting!
    I actually had thought about the THD yellow jackets route and sticking EL84s in there but I reckon its time for something different, variety being the spice of life and all that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 163 ✭✭zeppe


    Have you thought about changing the preamp tubes too? This can make a huge difference IMO. I've re valved all my amps with a combination of 5751s and Tungsol 12AX7s..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 513 ✭✭✭boycey


    zeppe wrote: »
    Have you thought about changing the preamp tubes too? This can make a huge difference IMO. I've re valved all my amps with a combination of 5751s and Tungsol 12AX7s..

    Yeah, I'll be getting everything changed zeppe, pre & power valves.
    Im gonna give Watford Valves a call tommorrow and order everything.

    I'm excited at the thoughts of getting her serviced and having two new (to me) types of valves in there, butit feels feels strange spending money on my hobby and not having anything new and shiny to show for it. Ah well, money well spent I reckon.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,433 ✭✭✭Quattroste


    boycey wrote: »
    butit feels feels strange spending money on my hobby and not having anything new and shiny to show for it. Ah well, money well spent I reckon.

    Just turn it around when you start playing..... shiney new toobes ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 513 ✭✭✭boycey


    Well, plans have changed slightly regarding getting the amp serviced!

    I finally got round to ringing the factory to ask a few tecchie questions. I rang on Good Friday morning and ended up chatting with Matamp's owner Jeff Lewis for half an hour.
    Told him all about the pending service, only for him to turn around and say he hates having that particular model serviced by anyone but themselves. Its a single channel point to point handwired amp, but a complicated one all the same. He had another idea- head over to them for a weekend while they re- valve and service the amp for free, while I get a tour of the factory and get to play loads of amps through their infamous 'Wall Of Speakers'. (I gotta pay for the new valves of course!)
    So, plans are afoot for the ultimate fanboy roadtrip in May, I already have my long suffering jamming buddy roped in, and possibly one other. I am now officially a nerd. A fanboy nerd at that, and they're the worst kind:o


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,433 ✭✭✭Quattroste


    Hmmmm what's this? Roadtrip? May? :D depends on what weekend. D'wifes birthday is the 8th so that weekend would be out!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 513 ✭✭✭boycey


    Quattroste wrote: »
    Hmmmm what's this? Roadtrip? May? :D depends on what weekend. D'wifes birthday is the 8th so that weekend would be out!

    Check your PM's dude;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭punchdrunk


    fancy picking up a minimat head for me? :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 513 ✭✭✭boycey


    Yeah, if youre serious I'll pick one up no problem punchdrunk. Looks like a mid May trip so get saving your pennies!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭punchdrunk


    yeah i'm serious chief!

    i want one in orange!
    should i email them and say your coming?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 513 ✭✭✭boycey


    I sent ya a text there punch. I'll be ringing the factory again tomorrow and I'll give ya a shout tomorrow evening.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭punchdrunk


    sweet i'm hoping it look like this...

    matamp-mini-2-orang2.jpg

    :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    6V6 are really low power, late 1930's vintage used in some WWII gear as they had nothing better.

    EL34 are far superior and in the day ( 1960s) some really fine amps built with them. The speaker and especially the cabinet is the most significant thing.

    You can make a far better amp with MosFets, either practically perfect, or use 900V MosFets and deliberately create a copy of the flawed nuances (which can sound very mellow and friendly) of the EL34, KT66 etc. You can even get PlugIn adaptors with MosFet direct into the Octal Base. One difficulty is the Valve main Grid is negative and the MosFet uses 2V to 6V positive gate, but some adaptors take care of that, deriving the gate volts from the Screen Grid of a Tetrode or Pentode. Not possible on a Triode base.

    However, I'd always use a valve amp with the valves it's designed for, not valve or MosFet alternatives. I use a 1987 ShortWave Transmitter, and I would not dream of changing the 6146B finals for any other type. I'm temped to replace the 12BY7 valve driver with a MosFet as it has a really short operating life. However I'll probably stick another 12BY7 this week.

    I've had a few nice P.A. Amps with EL34s and my 1st home made stereo used a pair of 6V6s.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,817 ✭✭✭✭Dord


    Replacing valves with plugin Mosfet modules?? BLASPHEMY! :mad:

    Ain't nothin' wrong with 6V6's either. I played a lovely Fender amp the other day that uses 6V6's. Sounded beautiful!


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