[US/IRL] 5X11 - "Whatever Happened, Happened" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

Catsmokinpot

- WARNING: THIS THREAD WILL CONTAIN SPOILERS FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT YET SEEN "HE'S OUR YOU" -

Episode Title: "Whatever Happened, Happened"
Airdate: April 1st 2009

Synopsis (from TV.Com):

Spoiler: Kate tries to save Ben. Kate starts to tell the truth about the lie in order to keep Aaron from harm.

Next New Episode: 5X12 - April 8th 2009

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SPOILER WARNING:

From now on, this thread shall reveal details of the episode mentioned above. If you have not yet seen this episode, please do not move any further down the thread.

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all i can say is oooooooooooooooooh lawdy lawdy lawdy!

Catsmokinpot

mods please delete this thread was beaten by one minute

homerun_homer

Catsmokinpot wrote: »

mods please delete this thread was beaten by one minute

Nah - keep this one open - though I beat you to it I couldn't get all the relevant details for the main body of the post - was searching for summaries etc but was too late.

I thought this episode had the same pace as the last 2 episodes and wasn't crammed with anything too revelatory. It was still a good episode.
What I wanted was a bit more explanation about why Kate shows up to Jack's and shags him. Many a theory went round over why she did this and though the how's and why she got rid of Aaron is suitable, I think there should be more to the Jack part. I'm sure it was a case of she felt so sad over getting rid of him in order to return that she just needed to feel something different and be the teasing b*tch she used to be on the island as opposed to the 'caring motherly' Kate.

The temple is an interesting concept though I don't know if saying "He'll forget this ever happened" is a good enough explanation as to whether Ben remembered sayid or not. Funny now, if Jack took the time to save him he could have possibly changed events and Ben may not have grown to be as evil. Then again you can't change what happened I suppose.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

good ep, apart from the stupid explanation for why ben didn't remember sayid in s1.

it's little things like this that demonstrate the need for a god damned plan when writing a tv show.

tok9

I thought it was very good..

The conversation between hurley and miles was excellent:D
Don't really like the explanation myself. I hope it will be explained properly over the seasson. Only 5 episodes left!!!!

Agamemnon

Good enough ep, I gave it a 7. Ben not remembering Sayid was a bit dumb though - why have him forget? It would make more sense to have him remember - adult Ben wouldn't try to change the future by killing Sayid when he meets him in Season 2. After all, if Sayid never shot Ben, Ben wouldn't be taken by the Others and made one of them.

Good to see Locke again at the end, hope the next episode is about his confrontation with the man who killed him.

Daysha

I was well pissed off when Alpert said all that stuff about "losing his innocence". It just felt like another cop out to me.

But then I saw him go into the Temple and I too it back

Alright episode, pretty much along the lines of the rest of the season. Great interactions between Hurley and Miles. Especially the look of Hurleys face when he asked Miles a question he couldn't answer.

homerun_homer

Preview for the next episode looks brilliant. The TV guide summary says that

Ben goes to summon the smoke monster to be judged for all the things he has done. The trailers show Locke following him all the way.

Also Starring LeVar Burton

Another solid episode, I thought.
Getting a bit annoyed at the absence of Desmond, Faraday, Locke and Older Ben, but looks like some of them will be back in the limelight next week, so that's good.

homerun_homer

You know that by them being gone it's gonna hit us harder when we get a shed load of info as to what's been going on while they are off screen. It makes the wait worthwhile.
I just hope Locke doesn't get screwed over by Ben again. We will find out before the season ends why Ben killed him and I think it could even happen next week.

DeepBlue

Best part of this ep was Kate getting knocked back by both Jack and Sawyer .
Other than that it was very boring.

Thankfully next week looks a bit more interesting.

Gavin W

tok9 wrote: »

The conversation between hurley and miles was excellent:D

Yep - it was exactly like the debates on this and a thousand other internet forums!

tok9

Gavin W wrote: »

Yep - it was exactly like the debates on this and a thousand other internet forums!

I was thinking the exact same thing...

I thought that was one of the best kate centric episodes in a long time

anotherlostie

I found it boring too. Kate went back to find Claire; where did that come from? While I like the Dharmaville setup, there is far too much emphasis of late on 1977 in this series, to the detriment of the other characters in the show. I did like the Hurley/ Myles tete a tete re time travel.

don ramo

good episode a solid 8 id give it,

the ben story is excellent, jack wont help ben cause he thinks if ben dies the time line will change, but in doing so hes actually letting events run as they should,

the first time round, ben was shot by sayid, and jack refuesed to help ben, then kate brough ben to RA, and hes gonna help ben now, and ben will become an other,

and now the second time around the exact same thing is happening,
think if sayid didnt shoot ben it would have changed the future and if jack did help it would have chnaged the future,

you cant change the future, its already writen,

is kate actually gonna look for claire, or was she just sick of aaron, and headed to the island to run away yet again,

obried26

My my my, Kate looked mightily fine in this episode. Especially that scene in the supermarket....wowser

missingtime

obried26 wrote: »

My my my, Kate looked mightily fine in this episode. Especially that scene in the supermarket....wowser

QFT!

Good ground work episode...frustrating ending as per usual.

Gah...till this time next week folks.

Psychedelic

I thought this was a great episode, loads of stuff revealed, like the scene with Richard Alpert at the end - he gets asked shouldn't he consult Widmore & Ellie, to which he replies that he doesn't answer to them. Seems Richard doesn't respect them and could be planning a rebellion against them with Ben's help. It also appeared that Widmore & Ellie weren't in the temple - maybe they can't go there? And what about Richard talking about Ben being "changed forever"?

If Jack had of saved Ben, Ben may not have ended up with the Others, so by Jack refusing to save him, he inadvertently ensures that Ben joins the Others. I like what they are doing with Jack's character now, he is starting to believe in the will of the island.

Hurley and Miles conversations about time travel were quite funny.

Good to see Locke at the end, and Ben looked genuinely surprised that Locke was alive.

homerun_homer wrote: »

What I wanted was a bit more explanation about why Kate shows up to Jack's and shags him. Many a theory went round over why she did this and though the how's and why she got rid of Aaron is suitable, I think there should be more to the Jack part. I'm sure it was a case of she felt so sad over getting rid of him in order to return that she just needed to feel something different and be the teasing b*tch she used to be on the island as opposed to the 'caring motherly' Kate.

From Kate's conversations with Cassidy, Kate admitted that she kept Aaron because of Sawyer staying behind and she needed someone. So when she decides to give Aaron over to Claire's mother, she is again letting go someone she loves so goes to Jack for comfort. I enjoyed those Kate scenes especially in her meeting with Claire's mother.

Also worth noting is that Kate's reason for going back to the island has now been cleared up, a little: she was feeling guilty about raising Aaron as her own after Claire appeared to her in a dream/hallucination and told her "Don't bring him back", which implies that Claire was warning Kate that she was going to go back and not to bring Aaron. Kate somehow feels guilty about this and maybe feels bad about leaving Claire behind or feels like she owes Claire.

Liber8or

Wondering if someone could verify this for me...

Ben got shot as a child.
Ben had spinal surgery as an adult by Jack Shepard.

In the episodes preceeding/during/succeeding Ben's spinal surgery, are there any references to a bullet wound on Ben's body?

Thanks if anyone can clarify this.

pjjk

One thing I noticed that seemed a bit odd, last episode he got shot through his heart(well his left hand side), and in this episode, only his right side was bloody

Resi12

How amazing did Kate look in the Supermarket! Wow.

One thing I just gathered from the end is this,

Are Frank And Sun Dead!!!? Only reason i can see as to why they ddin't go to the 1970's

Please say it ain't so ! (Don't reply yes or no as I do not want to know)!

Sad Professor

As Kate-centric eps go, that was really good. I was little underwhelmed by what happened to Aaron though. Like a lot of things this season, they're showing us stuff we already guessed and put together several episodes ago. However, I really liked the scene when Kate said she was going back to find Claire. One of the better character moments the show has had this season.

I'm too sure about the Ben-memory-loss-excuse. They better be going somewhere good with all this. Otherwise, I see no reason why he couldn't have just remembered everything. I hope we get to see more of young Ben as well.

purple_hatstand

As has been mentioned before in these episode threads, Ben is not the kind of person to jump about, saying stuff like, "we met before but you don't remember because you don't understand about time-travel yet" or whatever...Richard's comment could mean something quite different and we still don't really have a handle on his character/motivations.
The Miles/Hurley chats were a little 'for the back of the class' but funny all the same.

oleras

So, tricky dicky and the smoke monster heal ben, he goes back to dharma, lives with them for another 20 years...'till the time is right for the others to gas them all and take back the island...clear as mud !

I really liked the Kate story, she knew she could not raise the child on her own, then again, wasnt claire told that arron could not be raised by another, who better than his granny !

don ramo

maybe ben reconognised all of them when he saw them, and had to play along, if he didnt do the right things, they never would have left the island, and then come back, and have sayid shoot ben, and then ben would have to go to the others to get help,

if he shot sayid as soon as he saw him, his own past would have been altered, id say thats also why he made sayid kill all thoes people, and then just let him go, so to piss him off enough that he would shoot him when he was young, so that sayid would think he would never have to go through it all if he was dead,

to bad sayid didnt know he was playing into bens hands

again excellent episode

Mr.Nice Guy

Solid episode. I'd give it an 8.

I like the direction of Jack's character. I'm becoming more and more convinced that Jack is Jacob. When he refused to help Ben I thought of a comment Ben made when he was in the hatch talking to Locke about Jacob being a brilliant man "but not a forgiving man".

I want to see what happens with Locke and Ben but I'd rather they dealt with the Desmond/Penny mystery first.

W1llz0rz

I don't know if this has any relevence at all, but I was just thinking, remember at the end of season 2 when Michael had to bring 4 of the losties (Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sawyer) to the others, I don't know if it was just cause they are main characters, but all 4 of them are on the island again now, and the other 3 that are back were all on a boat going to look for the other 4 (Sun, Jin and Sayid) so maybe he will end up remembering something about them? Who knows??

cooker3

Enjoyable enough. Similar to the previous few episodes. Highlight of the episode by far was conversations between Hurley and Myles. It was utter gold. Hurley asked every question your casual viewer has been asking for months. The flashback scenes were a bit meh, they did the job of filling in the blanks but I pretty much guessed everything that occurred. Although as has been said by god Kate looked good in the supermarket.

The explanation for Ben forgetting was so so weak. I really hope we learn more about what happens to him in the temple cause the current explanation just doesn't cut it.

I liked the ending it's definitely time we see the other characters. Desmond has been so underused this season and we get to see more of Locke and Ben, I can't wait for that.

Niall0

don ramo wrote: »

good episode a solid 8 id give it,

the ben story is excellent, jack wont help ben cause he thinks if ben dies the time line will change, but in doing so hes actually letting events run as they should,

the first time round, ben was shot by sayid, and jack refuesed to help ben, then kate brough ben to RA, and hes gonna help ben now, and ben will become an other,

and now the second time around the exact same thing is happening,
think if sayid didnt shoot ben it would have changed the future and if jack did help it would have chnaged the future,

you cant change the future, its already writen,

is kate actually gonna look for claire, or was she just sick of aaron, and headed to the island to run away yet again,

there was no second time around, it just happend like that.What happened happened.

don ramo wrote: »

if he didnt do the right things, they never would have left the island, and then come back, and have sayid shoot ben, and then ben would have to go to the others to get help,

That would mean ben would be able to change what already happened, which cant happen. This means ben has to forget what happened.

don ramo

Niall0 wrote: »

there was no second time around, it just happend like that.What happened happened.

well not the second time round, but, as was said the losties are in the past with dharma, we know what happens to them, so its dharmas past but the losties present,

Niall0 wrote: »

That would mean ben would be able to change what already happened, which cant happen. This means ben has to forget what happened.

but ben wouldnt know what could happen if he changes something, if he killed sayid as soon as he saw him, sayid would never go to the past and shoot ben, therefore ben probably would never have joined the others, and even if he did, he wouldnt be in the position hes in now, and he seems very happy with hes role, and will make sure he stays put, so its in his interest to make sure the time line isnt altered

Handsome Bob

Thought its was another solid episode, and I was chuffed by the ending. From the moment Ben killed Locke and said "I'll miss you John" I had a feeling that Ben didn't truly know what would happen once Locke was brought back. In other words he didn't know John would be resurrected. Ben very much had the look of "shocked at seeing a guy I killed" on his face when he woke up to see John.

William NoMates

Hi, Enjoyed the episode. One thing that I thought, that doesn't seem to have been posted yet is regarding the whole incident with Kate losing Arron in the supermarket.

What struck me about it was the lady who found him and was taking the kid to "make an announcement" - she looked like an aged Claire. The camera focused on her eyes and i though immediatlly - Thats f*cking claire"! only about 30 years older

I could well be totally off the mark though. But what if claire ended up the the /70's and was unable to get back..

Am I totally insane or is it possible?

robby^5

The ending was great! Cant wait for next week!

For a second I thought Ben was going to wake up out of that sleep and suddenly remember Sayid shooting him or something...

The Don

Another quality episode. The stuff with Kate was good. And Jack by doing nothing caused Ben to be made what he is. I wonder if it is because he believes in the island now or not? Loved the conversation between Hurley and Myles, the look on Myles face when Hurley got him was priceless. I'm assuming that Daniel gave them an explanation on time travel before he left.

Richard said that Ben would loose his innocence and would then be one of them. Does this mean that all of the others have had their innocence taken? Is this why they turn on people they know like what happened with Danielle and her boyfriend. Also in season 2 they took only the innocent kids and the good people. Did they then take their innocence or do they need people with innocence to give advice so that they can remain balanced as a group?

Ron DMC

William NoMates wrote: »

Hi, Enjoyed the episode. One thing that I thought, that doesn't seem to have been posted yet is regarding the whole incident with Kate losing Arron in the supermarket.

What struck me about it was the lady who found him and was taking the kid to "make an announcement" - she looked like an aged Claire. The camera focused on her eyes and i though immediatlly - Thats f*cking claire"! only about 30 years older

I could well be totally off the mark though. But what if claire ended up the the /70's and was unable to get back..

Am I totally insane or is it possible?

I dunno, seems a bit far fetched. And the fact that we haven't seen claire all season means they'd be plucking her out of nowhere. Maybe she did go back in time with the rest though, she certainly wasn't with christian when he was chatting to sun and beardo franko.
Maybe she's hanging with jacob if she is in the past, so we might see more of that now that ben's with them.

I just don't think it was her in the supermarket. She'd be much stealthier I'd say.

Sad Professor

Any theories on The Temple?

What we know so far:

* It would appear to be where Smokey resides. He tried to drag Locke there (via a hole or "Cerberus Vent") at the end of season 1, just like he did with Montand.

* It "changes" a person. Rousseau accused Robert of being changed by the monster. It would seem all of her team were affected, hence the reason she killed them all. This is the "sickness" she referred to in season 1.

* It can save/or resurrect people. Richard brought Ben there in this episode. Ben will always be an Other because of this.

A few other things to consider:

Does this explain Claire? Did she go to the Temple? She abandoned Aaron in the middle of the jungle. I think it's fair to say that wasn't typical behaviour.

Are all these "changed" people actually dead? We know Christian died and he's walking around the island. Yemi's body disappeared just before his image appeared to Eko to judge him. Amy made a big deal to Sawyer about burying those bodies, and later Richard made a pact in exchange for her husband's body. And now Locke has come back to life as well.

Sherifu

It was a cop out that Ben wouldn't remember anything. Conversation between Hurley and Miles was great.

eddiehead

Sad Professor wrote: »

Are all these "changed" people actually dead? We know Christian died and he's walking around the island. Yemi's body disappeared just before his image appeared to Eko to judge him. Amy made a big deal to Sawyer about burying those bodies, and later Richard made a pact in exchange for her husband's body. And now Locke has come back to life as well.

I've been thinking that myself actually, I keep remembering what Widmore said to Ben when they met in 4x09 - "I know who you are, boy. What you are." - , I always wondered what he meant by that, maybe whatever happens in the temple is the answer to this.

jimbling

another quality episode... really enjoying this season.

The poor:
The whole Ben forgetting it all happened is very weak indeed. I'd much prefer that they played it the other way. That he did remember, but was so devious he managed to not let it show.

Some of the back story with Kate and Cassidy was a bit ****e.
Kate meets Cassidy for the first time. She tells her Sawyer is alive and jumped off the helicopter so the rest could make it to the boat. Cassidys response: "He did it to get away from you"...lol, ffs.


The Good:
Liked the way Jack trying to let Ben die turns out to be exactly what causes
Ben to turn into a bad ass other. Although, to be fair, Jack is write in his "let the island work out it's own problems" surmise

Miles and Hurley conversations were excellent. Pure gold.

This season I have been mostly drooling over Juliet........ kate back with a vengeance this week

Great ending.

The Don wrote: »

Richard said that Ben would loose his innocence and would then be one of them. Does this mean that all of the others have had their innocence taken? Is this why they turn on people they know like what happened with Danielle and her boyfriend. Also in season 2 they took only the innocent kids and the good people. Did they then take their innocence or do they need people with innocence to give advice so that they can remain balanced as a group?

No, I wouldn't think so. Presumably it is just those that experience what's inside wherever it is that Richard took Ben. (same place that smokey lives).
On that note, Sad Prof, you're calling that place "The Temple". Are you sure that is correct? Do we know for certain that that's the place Ben references as to where the others are last season?

pjjk wrote: »

One thing I noticed that seemed a bit odd, last episode he got shot through his heart(well his left hand side), and in this episode, only his right side was bloody

Bens wound is definitely on his right side this week. I don't have last weeks episode with me now, but I certainly recall thinking the shot was pretty much in the heart. I can't really see how writers could fck up that much, so going to assume for now that that was just my/our natural interpretation if it.

tok9

Sad Professor wrote: »

Any theories on The Temple?

What we know so far:

* It would appear to be where Smokey resides. He tried to drag Locke there (via a hole or "Cerberus Vent") at the end of season 1, just like he did with Montand.

* It "changes" a person. Rousseau accused Robert of being changed by the monster. It would seem all of her team were affected, hence the reason she killed them all. This is the "sickness" she referred to in season 1.

* It can save/or resurrect people. Richard brought Ben there in this episode. Ben will always be an Other because of this.

A few other things to consider:

Does this explain Claire? Did she go to the Temple? She abandoned Aaron in the middle of the jungle. I think it's fair to say that wasn't typical behaviour.

Are all these "changed" people actually dead? We know Christian died and he's walking around the island. Yemi's body disappeared just before his image appeared to Eko to judge him. Amy made a big deal to Sawyer about burying those bodies, and later Richard made a pact in exchange for her husband's body. And now Locke has come back to life as well.

Brilliant point.. I hope it's like that because what richard said at the end was a bit like when locke said they had to move the island last season to me anyway...

Sad Professor

jimbling wrote: »

Some of the back story with Kate and Cassidy was a bit ****e.
Kate meets Cassidy for the first time. She tells her Sawyer is alive and jumped off the plane so the rest could make it to the boat. Cassidys response: "He did it to get away from you"...lol, ffs.

Kate telling Cassidy everything, and Cassidy believing it, annoyed me too. However they did meet before while Kate was on the run (and Kate told her to give Sawyer up) so there kinda was a history between them.

On that note, Sad Prof, you're calling that place "The Temple". Are you sure that is correct? Do we know for certain that that's the place Ben references as to where the others are last season?

Yeah, I can't remember where it was confirmed, but it's definitely The Temple, or at least the outer wall of it.

JohnK

Well I really enjoyed this episode and I think Hurley and Miles completely stole the show with their conversation about the timeline.

I thought it was interesting to hear what one of the others said to Richard when he took Ben about how the other two wouldnt approve and Richards reply that he doesnt answer to them. Makes me wonder exactly what is the power stucture of the Others and how does Richard fit in? It looked like he was in charge when Locke walked into the camp in the past yet now some of the them seem to think otherwise. Hopefully we'll get to see more if Sayid links up with them (he cant go back to the dharma crowd) although they might not be very welcoming since he shot Ben.

Psychedelic

eddiehead wrote: »

I've been thinking that myself actually, I keep remembering what Widmore said to Ben when they met in 4x09 - "I know who you are, boy. What you are." - , I always wondered what he meant by that, maybe whatever happens in the temple is the answer to this.

Good point. I think this might back up what I said earlier in this thread that Widmore may not have access or has ever been in the Temple. I think (I hope) we are going to get some info on the Temple in next week's episode.

cooker3

Actually remember in season 3 when Ben told Jack he was born on the island. I wonder is that a kind of reference to the fact he forget everything before he got shot and in his head he was born on the island?

tok9

Well it seems it was ellie and widmore who decided to purge the dharma initiative if what ben says in cabin fever is true. Hurley asked him did he kill them and he said no he got his orders off the leaders of the others.

Also i wouldn't be too surprised if michael abbadon was on the island before

MarkR

I thought that lady that found aaron was claire for a moment. The wavy blond hair I suppose.

Granny had a mad accent. Thought she was supposed to be an ozzie?

Sad Professor

MarkR wrote: »

Granny had a mad accent. Thought she was supposed to be an ozzie?

She is, but obviously they couldn't (be bothered to) find an actual Australian for the role. I think the actress is British, which to an American casting director is close enough.

I have to say I find all the fake accents on U.S. tv shows very distracting. Even when they get someone with the right accent they tend to encourage them to adopt a more stereotypical-version of it.

anotherlostie

The Temple and Smokey's role in brainwashing people into becoming Others might explain why Cindy and the other 815ers became natural members of the Others when they were taken. However if this was the case, couldn't Richard and Ben have knocked out the Dharma people with Gas B instead of Gas A and given them the same treatment, rather than executing them?

ziggy

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ziggy

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Leprachaun

I love Kate's reason for going back to the island. I thought it was just going to be for Sawyer. Finally Kate can have a story that isn't love triangle/aaron babysitter related.