Screwed by The Digital Hub

nohopengn

Digital Hub or Digital Dud?
'The Digital Hub is an Irish Government initiative to create an international centre of excellence for knowledge, innovation and creativity focused on digital content and technology enterprises.'
That's the description taken from the front page of the Digital Hub's website (www.thedigitalhub.com).
Why is it that the broadband access in the Digital Hub is one of the most expensive I have had the unfortunate experience to come across. To be specific, the cost for a 1Mbps dedicated broadband connection in the Digital Hub is €35 per week or €150 per month.

Yes that's right €150 per month for 1Mbps dedicated access.

To put that in perspective, since 2008 it is possible for businesses to purchase dedicated IP from under €10 per Mbps (depending on the size of the order and if you have access to fibre). And yes, The Hub do have access to fibre.

Why are Irelands startups the being shafted with extortionate pricing? How in the world are any of us with an innovative idea expected to succeed in the online space when the agency setup to help and assist young companies is straddling them with outrageous IP costs?
Knowledge economy, smart economy.... buzzwords thrown out by politicians. It means nothing. They mean nothing.
Ireland Inc is screwed if this is how we 'encourage' technology startups.
€150 per mbps per month is not good enough.
They want to create 'an international centre of excellence' - with those prices, I don't think so.
Feel free to comment.... things like this really pxss me off.

Onikage

The digital hub? Isn't that the group of building scattered around the Guinness brewery? It seems more like a tourist attraction than a serious place to do business.

AlmightyCushion

You should consider your self lucky that they didn't just hand you a 3 usb dongle.

Cabaal

perhaps the website has not been updated since 2003?

[EDIT] I guess not, news is up-to-date
I guess their plan is feck over people who don't know any better?
works for other business around the world... ::pac:

Although they have a lot of big names listed using their services
http://www.thedigitalhub.com/enterprise_research/company_directory.php

AlmightyCushion

Cabaal wrote: »

perhaps the website has not been updated since 2003?

[EDIT] I guess not, news is up-to-date
I guess their plan is feck over people who don't know any better?
works for other business around the world... ::pac:

There are listings for events that happen next month.

http://www.thedigitalhub.com/article.php?id=243
http://www.thedigitalhub.com/article.php?id=244

Cabaal

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

There are listings for events that happen next month.

http://www.thedigitalhub.com/article.php?id=243
http://www.thedigitalhub.com/article.php?id=244

Given this place is in the middle of dublin and from the images it looks pretty big, perhaps the 150e a month 1MB BB exists to help pay for the loans to build the place

nohopengn

My main gripe is, that as a government agency that is supposed to be encouraging the development of s/w and technology based companies, where do they get off charging those prices? It just doesn't add up.

You won't find the pricing on the website. The IP pricing is given once you've been offered a place.

My apologies to those out there that can't get any broadband (or only 3G), but if The Hub is the best the Gov can do.... then the knowledge economy will never happen.

Moriarty

Dedicated connections always cost a lot more than normal residential/'business' broadband. You're paying for a SLA and guaranteed bandwidth, not just a normal broadband connection. You probably wouldn't get a quote much cheaper no matter what telco you went to.

johnciall

Is the Imbps contended or not, if it's an uncontended 1mbps your actually doing quite well, try finding out fromt eh likes of eircom what a leased line would cost you

Marlow

nohopengn wrote: »

the cost for a 1Mbps dedicated broadband connection in the Digital Hub is €35 per week or €150 per month.

Yes that's right €150 per month for 1Mbps dedicated access.

To put that in perspective, since 2008 it is possible for businesses to purchase dedicated IP from under €10 per Mbps (depending on the size of the order and if you have access to fibre). And yes, The Hub do have access to fibre.

Under 10 EUR/mbit/s is only available in datacenters, where there are carriers, that offer it. The digital hub is not one of them. So you'd have to calculate that price + the price of getting the bandwidth across some metro connection to the digital hub.

10 eur/mbit/s will also require volume. You'd need to buy at least 30 mbit/s to avail of that kind of pricing. 1 mbit/s won't do.

Give you an idea of pricing for uncontended fiber including internet in a location outside Dublin:
1 mbit/s = 250 eur/mbit
10 mbit/s = 150 eur/mbit
50 mbit/s = 80 eur/mbit
100 mbit/s = 50 eur/mbit

These are approximately prices, depending on carrier, transit, gear, infrastructure etc.

150 eur for 1 mbit/s is not bad, even in Dublin. However you might find, that if you buy 10 mbit/s you pay about the same

Also < 10 eur/mbit will not give you a reliable connection. You'd need at least a connection from 2 carriers and the second one would at least cost you around 15-20 eur/mbit. So for reliable internet you need to calculate around 30 eur/mbit and up per mbit. Still, in one of the datacenters, metro comes on top of it.

/M

BaconZombie

A 512Mb dedicated line from Eircom cause ~€35K a year.

Marlow

BOFH_139 wrote: »

A 512Mb dedicated line from Eircom cause ~€35K a year.

If you get that as a 2 mbit leased line by somebody else you'll pay 416.66 eur less/month

/M

Capt'n Midnight

€150 a month is less than what home users ADSL used to cost .

Depending on location you may also be able to get real wireless, there are several flat panels there already.

Any chance you could piggyback of an existing user ?

nohopengn

Compared to home user prices €150 may not seem like a bad price, however that misses the point.

The Digital Hub is supposed to be the centre of excellence for young companies who are developing next generation software applications.

The Hub can purchase 1Mbps dedicated IP for as little as €10 per Mbps (as it has direct fibre connection to Telecity). Charging €150 per Mbps is extremely profitable to The Hub and is not a 'good deal' for the companies that require low latency connections for development of their products.

If the government were serious about encouraging new application development, then Hub companies should be able to get dedicated IP for at most €50 per Meg, not €150.

The Hub currently have a 200Mbps delivered via fibre, so they can easily pass on the price to the startups.

Marlow

nohopengn wrote: »

The Hub can purchase 1Mbps dedicated IP for as little as €10 per Mbps (as it has direct fibre connection to Telecity). Charging €150 per Mbps is extremely profitable to The Hub and is not a 'good deal' for the companies that require low latency connections for development of their products.

If the government were serious about encouraging new application development, then Hub companies should be able to get dedicated IP for at most €50 per Meg, not €150.

The Hub currently have a 200Mbps delivered via fibre, so they can easily pass on the price to the startups.

They can buy at that pricing, but they also have to pay for the fiber to TeleCity, which has a pricetag, too. They also have the cost for management and support of the infrastructure between TeleCity and throughout the Digital Hub. That all has to be included in your cost calculation. 10 eur/mbit just doesn't do it there.

Also you are still forgetting there would be no redundancy in 10 eur/meg. You still need to calculate at least 30-40 EUR/mbit/s before you are even out of TeleCity.

What does it cost, when you buy for example 10 mbit/s ? 20 mbit/s ?

/M

nohopengn

That pricing includes the fibre.I can buy IP for as little as €6 per Mbps from Cogent if I purchase a 1Gbps link. It's €8 for a 100Mbps link.
Transmission costs can be provided at anything from €4 to €50 depending on order size and term.The Hub currently buy 200Mbps so it's quite easy for them to avail of the price I've mentioned and pass it on to
startups. The only other price that may be charged is a €1000 install fee for the cross-connect at Tele-city.

Prices have dramatically changed over the last 9 months and many people are just not aware of that.

Re:Wireless options - for a number of technical and capacity reasons, the only wireless option I would consider would be millimetre-wave (mmW). Microwave just doesn't provide the required latency.

While I'm on the subject of mmW technologies, if the government were serious about deploying broadband, they'd create mmW wireless metros in all of the towns and cities in the country. Wouldn't cost that much as I think the price for links range from €20-40K. The technology has been around Ireland for about 1 year. It presents a real alternative for IP transmission especially in the metro markets.

Marlow

nohopengn wrote: »

That pricing includes the fibre.I can buy IP for as little as €6 per Mbps from Cogent if I purchase a 1Gbps link. It's €8 for a 100Mbps link.
Transmission costs can be provided at anything from €4 to €50 depending on order size and term.The Hub currently buy 200Mbps so it's quite easy for them to avail of the price I've mentioned and pass it on to
startups. The only other price that may be charged is a €1000 install fee for the cross-connect at Tele-city.

Again, you are only calculating Cogent and transmission cost so. No redundancy, no management, no support. Even Cogents sales guys tell you not to rely on Cogent alone and there is a reason for that. They are the cheapest around, but sometimes you can't get parts of the Internet, because they will not pay for peering.

The next one up from Cogent will cost you 20-30 eur/meg depending on volume and you need to add that, if you want reliable internet.

I agree, that 50 EUR, maybe 60-70 EUR should be possible, depending on volume, but you as enduser should be looking at 5-10 mbit minimum to get that pricing. You still haven't answered, what 10 meg in the Digital Hub would cost.

10 EUR/meg is unrealistic ! Don't give people the wrong impression.

/M

watty

However if all you want is the same service you would get on DSL/Cable/Fixed Wireless at home and as used by many small businesses, it is expensive.

€150 a month isn't bad for what it is. But maybe most startups don't need that kind of package.

nohopengn

Marlow, sounds like you work for one of theose overcharging telcos...
re:price for 10Mbps it's 10*150 = 1500 (that's Hub pricing)

Watty, unfortunately many do.........
isn't it a typically Irish trait that the position taken always seems to be 'why should we' rather than 'why shouldn't we' and this is especially apparent when it comes to a government agency that was created
to be a centre of excellence for digital media communications and software development.

With these attitudes Ireland Inc has absolutely no chance of ever becoming an cutting edge innovative nation developing next generation applications and services... we simply don't display the aspirations.
pity

nohopengn

I have met with and spoken to many Dublin datacentres who have used cogent (and still do) and none that I spoke to had any problems with the connections.

Also, many Irish ISPs are using cogent.

Marlow

nohopengn wrote: »

Marlow, sounds like you work for one of theose overcharging telcos...
re:price for 10Mbps it's 10*150 = 1500 (that's Hub pricing)

Who I work for is in my signature. As for our pricing, feel free to check the website.

1500 EUR for 10 mbit/s is quite steep for Dublin alright. 150 EUR for 1 mbit/s is not. Prices scales usually with volume.

All I was saying is, you can not take 10 eur/meg as the measurement, because it doesn't fit front nor back.

/M

nohopengn

fair point... €10 per Mbps is not a price that typical end users can get.

As the Digital Hub is supposed to be a centre of excellence for young s/w and technology companies. The very least we can expect is that the Digital Hub provide the best and cheapest digital infrastructure in the country. It's really that simple. As a gov agency who purchase over 200mbps per month, they can get great pricing and pass it on.
They don't and they should.
So much for innovation stimulation and encouragement.

Happy Easter.....

P.s. I double-checked the pricing and there is a nominal discount for 10Mbps it's something like 1300 per month rather than 1500

Marlow

nohopengn wrote: »

P.s. I double-checked the pricing and there is a nominal discount for 10Mbps it's something like 1300 per month rather than 1500

Well,

you can tell them, that Smart Telecom will install fiber anywhere outside Dublin at less than 1300 eur/month for 10 mbit/s if you are at one of the MAN's (I believe it's around 1000-1200 EUR/month for 10 mbit/s in Galway).

We sell 10 mbit/s uncontended for 1500 EUR/month, but that's even at the arse of nowhere, ie. in the Burren for example or in Furbo. Beats the hell out of leased lines for pricing.

1300 EUR for 10 mbit/s in Dublin is a joke.

/M

Doodee

Have any of you ever been/ dealt with the Hub before?


Having worked for a company that used to have to rent off them I can assure you that the place has no ambitions to help out companies.
The place is a money pit. Go visit the 'Gaming exhibition' they have in one of the buildings. To get to it you have to walk in around the Back via the car park.

The main thing the Hub has is property, which will be worth a pretty penny if / when it does get sold and developed.

Marlow

Doodee wrote: »

Having worked for a company that used to have to rent off them I can assure you that the place has no ambitions to help out companies.
The place is a money pit.

Then don't rent there, that's all I can say. There are tons of offices empty at really decent pricing and probably better located and better connected.

Honestly, I have no pitty for people that don't shop around, even when it comes to company premises. When we went looking for premises around Galway, we were offered pricing ranging from 9.50 EUR/sq.ft. to 25 EUR/sq.ft. (core/shell), 15 EUR and up for fully fit, and some of the cheaper ones in prime locations, with free and plenty parking, already fiber inside the building etc.
There's always an alternative, if the shoe doesn't fit.

But that's way off topic here.

/M

nohopengn

Marlow wrote: »

Then don't rent there, that's all I can say. There are tons of offices empty at really decent pricing and probably better located and better connected.
/M

I take it then, that you do agree with the thrust of the topic.
That, the government agency - The Digital Hub - is fundamentally flawed in that it does not properly cater for young digital companies in the way that it should.

Marlow

nohopengn wrote: »

I take it then, that you do agree with the thrust of the topic.
That, the government agency - The Digital Hub - is fundamentally flawed in that it does not properly cater for young digital companies in the way that it should.

It doesn't matter if I agree or disagree. I'm just saying, that if you don't like the smell in the bakery, then don't go there. No sense in complaining about it, unless you complain to them.

Posting here about it won't change things.

/M

nohopengn

Marlow wrote: »

It doesn't matter if I agree or disagree. I'm just saying, that if you don't like the smell in the bakery, then don't go there. No sense in complaining about it, unless you complain to them.

Posting here about it won't change things./M

Firstly, this has been said directly to the Hub.
Secondly, are you telling me that it is not in the public interest to know what is going in The Digital Hub? This 'centre of excellence' in Ireland, that fosters innovation and digital media creation.Surely not.

And finally, are you now taking ownership of this forum? Should I run my next post by you just in case it doesn't meet your approval?

nahdoic

You should check out www.gec.ie - they are right beside the digital hub and they offer shared broadband so you can get it at a much better rate.

Marlow

nohopengn wrote: »

Firstly, this has been said directly to the Hub.
Secondly, are you telling me that it is not in the public interest to know what is going in The Digital Hub? This 'centre of excellence' in Ireland, that fosters innovation and digital media creation.Surely not.

And finally, are you now taking ownership of this forum? Should I run my next post by you just in case it doesn't meet your approval?

That is the way you are laying it all out and entirely up to you. I do not agree that 150 EUR for 1 mbit is over the top (your initial post), I do agree that 130 EUR/mbit for 10 mbit is over the top, certainly expecting 10 EUR/meg is completely out of the order and no, I do not take ownership of the forum.

Thus I leave it at this. I've made my position very clear and you've done nothing but attacking left right and center.

/M

Oracle

watty wrote: »

However if all you want is the same service you would get on DSL/Cable/Fixed Wireless at home and as used by many small businesses, it is expensive.

€150 a month isn't bad for what it is. But maybe most startups don't need that kind of package.

I agree, and maybe thats exactly what you should consider doing, working from home. That gives you far lower costs and flexibility. Many people make the mistake of spending far too much money when they start a business. Think of all the start ups that got big, none started out in flashy offices paying out a fortune. For example, Dell, HP, Google and Microsoft all started out in basic offices or from home, working with DIY hardware and software. Thinking big, doesn't necessarily mean, spending big.

zeris

watty wrote: »

However if all you want is the same service you would get on DSL/Cable/Fixed Wireless at home and as used by many small businesses, it is expensive.

€150 a month isn't bad for what it is. But maybe most startups don't need that kind of package.

Does anyone know if it is possible to get a POTS line from Eircom or other LLU provider and install your own DSL in The Digital Hub or are you prevented by the lease?

TimTim

zeris wrote: »

Does anyone know if it is possible to get a POTS line from Eircom or other LLU provider and install your own DSL in The Digital Hub or are you prevented by the lease?

er, install your "own" dsl?

What exactly are you looking to do and we might be able to point you in the right direction.

edit: woo 666

Marlow

TimTim wrote: »

er, install your "own" dsl?

What exactly are you looking to do and we might be able to point you in the right direction.

edit: woo 666

He doesn't want to pay the Digital Hub for internet and get a DSL line from somebody else instead. For that he'd obviously need a phoneline directly from some telco.

/M