Zanu-FF inaction is fatal for Economy

Barname

Zanu-FF ruderless inaction is proving fatal to the economy
(the rating downgrade is effectively a slap down on Cowen for inaction with respect to his failure to cut current expenditure and carry put PS/CS reform)

Now, lets examine an area where Cowen has taken action

The government also is about to buy 25 percent stakes in Ireland's two biggest banks, Allied Irish and Bank of Ireland, at a cost to the taxpayer of euro7 billion.

As of 10am today 31.03.09 the Market Capitalisation of each of those banks is as follows:

AIB - €488,163,737
BOI - €456,916,207

Total Market Capitalisation of both Banks is €945,000,000

Why is the Taxpayer paying €7,000,000,000 (7 Billion) to purchase 25% of these banks when 25% can be purchased on the Stock Market for €236 Million?

Zanu-FF and the Gombeenarchy (Cowen, Lenihan, Coughlan - they all inherited their thrones from their Dad's and were elected by Gombeens) have effectively paid almost 30 times the market value for our 25% stake.

Now, lets be clear, the €7 Billion will not last longer than a snowflake on a fire, of that I am sure. The money would be better invested in a New Bank. We need a system, we dont need the Institutions.

I cannot understand who is advising these Gombeens. The banks are running rings around them, meanwhile Ireland Inc is finished.

Flamed Diving

Does this thread make sense to anyone?

I thought we were dicussing South African politics, for a while there.

Barname

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Does this thread make sense to anyone?

I thought we were dicussing South African politics, for a while there.

A FF Gombeen will always have difficulty understanding the most basic of things.

Dont worry, move on Flamed. We will give you a pass.

Flamed Diving

Barname wrote: »

A FF Gombeen will always have difficulty understanding the most basic of things.

Dont worry, move on Flamed. We will give you a pass.

We?

Having multiple personality problems much?

Diarmuid

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Does this thread make sense to anyone?

I thought we were dicussing South African politics, for a while there.

It's a propertypin-ism. Zanu-PF / Zanu-FF analogy , from to the opinion that FF have run this country like a banana republic.

Barname

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Does this thread make sense to anyone?

I thought we were dicussing South African politics, for a while there.

:pac::pac::pac: gombeen for sure

Flamed Diving

Barname wrote: »

:pac::pac::pac: gombeen for sure

Nice try.

What did the NOTW tell you to think, this week?

:pac:

Barname

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Nice try.

What did the NOTW tell you to think, this week?

:pac:

Thats rich coming from a FF gombeen.

Read my OP. I challenge you to contest any fact stated in it.

Are you capable, or will you as usual, crash and burn?

Flamed Diving

Barname wrote: »

Thats rich coming from a FF gombeen.

Read my OP. I challenge you to contest any fact stated in it.

Are you capable, or will you as usual, crash and burn?

Dob74

Barname wrote: »

Zanu-FF ruderless inaction is proving fatal to the economy
(the rating downgrade is effectively a slap down on Cowen for inaction with respect to his failure to cut current expenditure and carry put PS/CS reform)

Now, lets examine an area where Cowen has taken action
As of 10am today 31.03.09 the Market Capitalisation of each of those banks is as follows:

AIB - €488,163,737
BOI - €456,916,207

Total Market Capitalisation of both Banks is €945,000,000

Why is the Taxpayer paying €7,000,000,000 (7 Billion) to purchase 25% of these banks when 25% can be purchased on the Stock Market for €236 Million?

Zanu-FF and the Gombeenarchy (Cowen, Lenihan, Coughlan - they all inherited their thrones from their Dad's and were elected by Gombeens) have effectively paid almost 30 times the market value for our 25% stake.

Now, lets be clear, the €7 Billion will not last longer than a snowflake on a fire, of that I am sure. The money would be better invested in a New Bank. We need a system, we dont need the Institutions.

I cannot understand who is advising these Gombeens. The banks are running rings around them, meanwhile Ireland Inc is finished.

They should give the bankers a second chance. After all we make mistakes. I am sure FF feel a christian obilgation to help these failed bankers.

OR MAYBE the banks have made sweetheart loans to friends of FF, who are pressuring thier politial buddies to go easy on the banks.

serfboard

Dob74 wrote: »

OR MAYBE the banks have made sweetheart loans to friends of FF, who are pressuring thier politial buddies to go easy on the banks.

This is what was said about Anglo Irish, and why it was nationalised, rather than let collapse.

Dob74

serfboard wrote: »

This is what was said about Anglo Irish, and why it was nationalised, rather than let collapse.

It makes me sick to see all the neo-liberal economists trying to justify the bank bail-out.
So much for the free market, Bail-out the super rich who pay themselves rediculous pay from bankrupt corporations.
While its fcuk the workforce who produce things.

Phony profits lead to large bonuses.
And of course we hand over 7 billion without asking for a penny back in the bonuses they have been paying themselves. The largest dole cheque in history.:mad:

Purple Gorilla

Barname wrote: »

Why is the Taxpayer paying €7,000,000,000 (7 Billion) to purchase 25% of these banks when 25% can be purchased on the Stock Market for €236 Million?

Now I'm no George Lee (Economics isn't my thing..and I enjoy life) but I believe we are paying €7 billion for 25% of the banks because they need the 7 billion...235 million isn't nearly enough (even now, €7 billion is nearly the minimum the banks need). We can't take a bigger share in the banks because then it is effectively nationalising them which will hugely effect the banks' borrowing abilities which will just make the situation worse.

Sam the Sham

I have a stupid question:

If we own Anglo-Irish and we're broke, how come we're not calling in the debts of all the developers who owe us money? Why are they allowed to maintain what's left of their fortunes?

Barname

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

Now I'm no George Lee (Economics isn't my thing..and I enjoy life) but I believe we are paying €7 billion for 25% of the banks because they need the 7 billion...235 million isn't nearly enough (even now, €7 billion is nearly the minimum the banks need). We can't take a bigger share in the banks because then it is effectively nationalising them which will hugely effect the banks' borrowing abilities which will just make the situation worse.

Purple Gorilla, It is staring you in the face.

It does not add up, the government are ducking the obvious.

Natural Markets do not tolerate manipulation or crutches.

Cowen is playing with our money and I am telling you straight that the 7 Billion is going to be wasted.

(7 Billion should have resulted in Nationalisation but our politicians have not got the required balls to face down the unfortunate shareholders)

Barname

Sam the Sham wrote: »

I have a stupid question:

If we own Anglo-Irish and we're broke, how come we're not calling in the debts of all the developers who owe us money? Why are they allowed to maintain what's left of their fortunes?

A. Zanu-FF and its Gombeenarchy

Diarmuid

Sam the Sham wrote: »

I have a stupid question:

If we own Anglo-Irish and we're broke, how come we're not calling in the debts of all the developers who owe us money? Why are they allowed to maintain what's left of their fortunes?

Simple answer. Because those fortunes don't exist. In fact they never did. It's called leverage. Seems the Irish confused debt with wealth.

Sam the Sham

Diarmuid wrote: »

Simple answer. Because those fortunes don't exist. In fact they never did. It's called leverage. Seems the Irish confused debt with wealth.

Yabut seems to me there are plenty of developers who are not out on the street with signs reading "will build for food." Why do they have any assets left at all?

Barname

Diarmuid wrote: »

Simple answer. Because those fortunes don't exist. In fact they never did. It's called leverage. Seems the Irish confused debt with wealth.

x10 :pac:

Time Magazine

I've received a serious PM regarding this thread.

I don't want to close it but unfortunately for legal reasons the next poster to mention (or allude to) Fianna Fáil or any of its members will be banned.

Barname

The Economist wrote: »

I've received a serious PM regarding this thread.

I don't want to close it but unfortunately for legal reasons the next poster to mention (or allude to) Fianna Fáil or any of its members will be banned.

Are you being censored? Care to publish it?

I am concerned if there is an effort being made to blanket free speech.

I cannot see how one can discuss the current fiscal morass and avoid mentioning the people responsible for Irelands unique and individual meltdown.

It also concerns me that the same individuals are now spending more time trying to control media outlets than addressing the real problems within the economy.

legally, once one states fact then there is no issue.

I note the lack of outrage with the fact that the taxpayers purchase of its equity investment in AIB and BOI is 30 times yesterdays share price.

Sam the Sham

D'oh! Good one. You got me.

Dob74

The Economist wrote: »

I've received a serious PM regarding this thread.

I don't want to close it but unfortunately for legal reasons the next poster to mention (or allude to) Fianna Fáil or any of its members will be banned.

?

This is nothing compared to what Morgan Kelly had to say in the Irish Times.
If people cant disguse the government giving the banks 7 billion.
Than there is something wrong in this country.

Time Magazine

I'd rather not discuss it too much lads. It was a very serious PM. Was signed and had the date on it and all.

Économiste Monétaire

The Economist wrote: »

I've received a serious PM regarding this thread.

I don't want to close it but unfortunately for legal reasons the next poster to mention (or allude to) Fianna Fáil or any of its members will be banned.

Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo Biffo

Fratton Fred

Madness.

Either free speach is being restricted by expensive lawyers, or we can expect to see a table full of Boards employees at the Galway Races this year

Barname

The Economist wrote: »

I'd rather not discuss it too much lads. It was a very serious PM. Was signed and had the date on it and all.

I think you need to explain.

We dont need drama, just present us with the facts, namely:

1. Who contacted you?
2. Who do they represent?
3. What is their beef?
4. Define 'serious' - note, we are not in Kindergarten.

A threat to free speech in a supposedly open democracy must always be challenged.

We the people expect full clarification from you.

Regards,

Barname

Économiste Monétaire

It's April Fools...

By the way, we haven't purchased 25% in ordinary shares. It's worth looking at what the government actually purchased (i.e. preference shares), what the rate of return on that is, what the warrants are on the investment, etc.

Barname

Économiste Monétaire wrote: »

It's April Fools...

By the way, we haven't purchased 25% in ordinary shares. It's worth looking at what the government actually purchased (i.e. preference shares), what the rate of return on that is, what the warrants are on the investment, etc.

the ordinary shares of the Banks are worthless.

Both Banks are Insolvent.

On what planet do you think 'preference' shares in an isolvent company are value for a suckerpunched taxpayer?

Économiste Monétaire

Have you actually read the details of the recapitalisation? It's not really worth my time debating this if you're basing the rant on a newspaper extract.

Diarmuid

The Economist wrote: »

I'd rather not discuss it too much lads. It was a very serious PM. Was signed and had the date on it and all.

Has to be April fools

Barname

Économiste Monétaire wrote: »

Have you actually read the details of the recapitalisation? It's not really worth my time debating this if you're basing the rant on a newspaper extract.

You make alot of incorrect assumptions there frenchy

I am not here to debate or like some others am I trying to squash or divert free speech.

I have no fear of calling a Pig a Pig.

Do not attempt to Gild the Lily with me regarding the Bank Bail out.

My statements stand.

Économiste Monétaire

Preference shares ≠ ordinary shares. Also, the idea that we can set up whole new banks when the deposits in, and senior and subordinated debt of, the existing Irish banks are guaranteed by the taxpayer is laughable in its stupidity.

Barname

Économiste Monétaire wrote: »

Preference shares ≠ ordinary shares. Also, the idea that we can set up whole new banks when the deposits in, and senior and subordinated debt of, the existing Irish banks are guaranteed by the taxpayer is laughable in its stupidity.

Thats only because Zanu-FF were dumb enough to guarantee the debt.

Deposits should have been guaranteed. Debts were another issue and one in which the government were clearly hoodwinked.

I note again your use of personal attacks and assumptions rather than addressing the OP.

(we all know that PS are 'pref' to OS - my point is that in an insolvent company, they are all worthless)

Question for Économiste Monétaire (aka Dept Of Fin. bumbler?)

Do you seriously defend the pricing of these 'preferential' shares at 30 times the O.S. price?

Cannot wait to see how this price is justified by Économiste Monétaire.

Dob74

Économiste Monétaire wrote: »

Preference shares ≠ ordinary shares. Also, the idea that we can set up whole new banks when the deposits in, and senior and subordinated debt of, the existing Irish banks are guaranteed by the taxpayer is laughable in its stupidity.

How can you justify this dole payment?
If I run my business stupidly, I go bankrupt.
If banks run there business stupidly, they get bailed out by the taxpayer.
The taxpayer bailed out AIB in 85 and it has failed again!
Time to break up the big banks. We cannot reward failure.

Économiste Monétaire

Barname wrote: »

I note again your use of personal attacks and assumptions rather than addressing the OP.

How ironic:
"Question for Économiste Monétaire (aka Dept Of Fin. bumbler?)"

Barname wrote: »

A FF Gombeen will always have difficulty understanding the most basic of things.

Dont worry, move on Flamed. We will give you a pass.

Barname wrote: »

:pac::pac::pac: gombeen for sure

Barname wrote: »

Thats rich coming from a FF gombeen.

Read my OP. I challenge you to contest any fact stated in it.

Are you capable, or will you as usual, crash and burn?

There were no personal attacks, I labelled your idea as stupid. I believe the point on whether you, personally, are to be self-evident; at least to anyone with a clue of economics and/or finance.

Barname wrote: »

(we all know that PS are 'pref' to OS - my point is that in an insolvent company, they are all worthless)

We? Whom do you believe you are speaking for? If you did know the difference I doubt you would try to juxtapose the two considering that the full amount is expected to be repaid within 5 years and with an 8% annual fixed dividend. What's the dividend on BoI shares again?

Barname wrote: »

Question for Économiste Monétaire (aka Dept Of Fin. bumbler?)

Do you seriously defend the pricing of these 'preferential' shares at 30 times the O.S. price?

Cannot wait to see how this price is justified by Économiste Monétaire.

This is hilarious. Maybe because they haven't been priced at that? What is the strike price on the warrants attached to this investment? What value do they place on the ordinary stock of each bank? If you read the details of the recapitalisation then you'd know this.

Économiste Monétaire

Dob74 wrote: »

How can you justify this dole payment?
If I run my business stupidly, I go bankrupt.
If banks run there business stupidly, they get bailed out by the taxpayer.
The taxpayer bailed out AIB in 85 and it has failed again!
Time to break up the big banks. We cannot reward failure.

How can I justify ~€200 a week dole payments? Or, is that supposed to be a metaphor for a transfer payment from the tax payer to the banks?

Dob74

Économiste Monétaire wrote: »

How can I justify ~€200 a week dole payments? Or, is that supposed to be a metaphor for a transfer payment from the tax payer to the banks?

a metaphor

Barname

Économiste Monétaire wrote: »

This is hilarious. Maybe because they haven't been priced at that? What is the strike price on the warrants attached to this investment? What value do they place on the ordinary stock of each bank? If you read the details of the recapitalisation then you'd know this.

So many hypotheticals in a time of such uncertainty what a broth of slop it is in which you place your faith.

Simply put, I admire your faith but it is blind.

Lets roll with your argument for a moment though....

Lets examine the 'Preferential Shares' see what makes them so special...

Fixed dividend of 8%, payable annually. Dividends payable in cash at the discretion of the bank. If cash dividend not paid, then ordinary shares are issued in lieu at a time no later than the date on which the bank subsequently pays a cash dividend on other Core Tier 1 capital.

Right so, if the bank makes a profit (questionable) It may at ITS own discretion choose to pay the taxpayer the fixed dividend.

for example: If the bank chooses to retain a profit for distribution as bonus money and neglects the fixed dividend the taxpayer cannot quibble.

All that will happen is that New OS will be issued as payment (MADNESS) what value is determined for this potential? none stated!

The State will vote no more than 50% of the votes associated with the ordinary shares which it receives through exercise of the Warrants.

Another gem!!! effectively as each year passes and the banks fail to post profits the taxpayers dividend will be paid in O.S.
BUT
These OS become LESS THAN OS when holding of same exceeds 50%

Shall I continue with your enlightenment Économiste Monétaire?

Varkov

I blame it all on Fianna Fail, no one else is to blame for the sham that has been the Irish government for the last 10+ years!!

Économiste Monétaire

Barname wrote: »

Right so, if the bank makes a profit (questionable) It may at ITS own discretion choose to pay the taxpayer the fixed dividend.

for example: If the bank chooses to retain a profit for distribution as bonus money and neglects the fixed dividend the taxpayer cannot quibble.

All that will happen is that New OS will be issued as payment (MADNESS) what value is determined for this potential? none stated!

Payments on the dividends of preference shares transfer from each year. What's the mechanism for the issuance of new shares as a replacement of cash?

Barname wrote: »

Another gem!!! effectively as each year passes and the banks fail to post profits the taxpayers dividend will be paid in O.S.
BUT
These OS become LESS THAN OS when holding of same exceeds 50%

Shall I continue with your enlightenment Économiste Monétaire?

And what happens to the voting rights of the shares when they are sold? Magically, they retain full voting rights, so they aren't "less than OS." They're sold to an amount equivalent to the dividend owed. Of course, what you're saying is that all banks will be making an operating loss and the directors of the banks, with their own interest in dilution, will want to issue new shares as opposed to wanting to pay the government off as quickly as possible. Feel free to continue.

You've also avoided the pricing question I raised. What value does the state place on the ordinary shares of the banks? Is it 30 times the value on 31-03-09?

Barname

Économiste Monétaire wrote: »

Payments on the dividends of preference shares transfer from each year. What's the mechanism for the issuance of new shares as a replacement of cash?


And what happens to the voting rights of the shares when they are sold? Magically, they retain full voting rights, so they aren't "less than OS." They're sold to an amount equivalent to the dividend owed. Of course, what you're saying is that all banks will be making an operating loss and the directors of the banks, with their own interest in dilution, will want to issue new shares as opposed to wanting to pay the government off as quickly as possible. Feel free to continue.

You've also avoided the pricing question I raised. What value does the state place on the ordinary shares of the banks? Is it 30 times the value on 31-03-09?

Address the blatant holes as listed by me and I will address your post.

I will not stand over the greatest one-stop robbery of Irish Taxpayers and allow you to deflect.

ma connaissance est infinie

Just wondering.... Are you Dan McLaughlin?

Économiste Monétaire

So, you are now the crusader for the Irish tax payer? "I will not stand over the greatest one-stop robbery of Irish Taxpayers and allow you to deflect." :rolleyes: Drama more, please. Your assumption is that they will not pay transferable dividends and that was about all you pointed out. If they refused to pay all preference dividends because they have no money, and by extension bond holders, they would be nationalised. I know of no economists discussing this option, the main fear is that they'll attempt to pay off the debt too quickly to get the government off their back.

Basically: preference shares = ordinary shares. We've paid 30 times over what we should be paying, by using your pricing equivalence method. FF are to blame for everything, including Madonna's obsession with Malawi children. April Fools doesn't exist, Biffo cares what people say about him on a message board. Have I missed anything?

Barname

Économiste Monétaire wrote: »

So, you are now the crusader for the Irish tax payer? "I will not stand over the greatest one-stop robbery of Irish Taxpayers and allow you to deflect." :rolleyes: Drama more, please. Your assumption is that they will not pay transferable dividends and that was about all you pointed out. If they refused to pay all preference dividends because they have no money, and by extension bond holders, they would be nationalised. I know of no economists discussing this option, the main fear is that they'll attempt to pay off the debt too quickly to get the government off their back.

Basically: preference shares = ordinary shares. We've paid 30 times over what we should be paying, by using your pricing equivalence method. FF are to blame for everything, including Madonna's obsession with Malawi children. April Fools doesn't exist, Biffo cares what people say about him on a message board. Have I missed anything?

You definitely are a pro FF employee of the Dep of Fin. arent you?

Économiste Monétaire

I am Brian Lenihan. Want an autograph?

Barname

Économiste Monétaire wrote: »

I am Brian Lenihan. Want an autograph?

Then Brian, you are excused, I know you are not capable of answering my questions.

Nice lad Brian...

Dublin_Gunner

Wouldn't surprise me if he spent all day on forums actually..........

Économiste Monétaire

Thanks. Any chance you have ~€7bn lying around and are feeling generous?

Barname

Économiste Monétaire wrote: »

Thanks. Any chance you have ~€7bn lying around and are feeling generous?

:pac:

thebman

Varkov wrote: »

I blame it all on Fianna Fail, no one else is to blame for the sham that has been the Irish government for the last 10+ years!!

No one else? Not even the people who voted for them again and again?

Or the people that didn't bother voting for anyone at all?

Barname

Barname wrote: »

Purple Gorilla, It is staring you in the face.

It does not add up, the government are ducking the obvious.

Natural Markets do not tolerate manipulation or crutches.

Cowen is playing with our money and I am telling you straight that the 7 Billion is going to be wasted.

(7 Billion should have resulted in Nationalisation but our politicians have not got the required balls to face down the unfortunate shareholders)

17 months later S&P confirm my post

Markets do not tolerate manipulation or crutches