VAT: Should they display it?

Elmo

Should all shops across the EU be forced to display the rate VAT on all products.

E.g. Patatoes price with VAT = €5 and with VAT @ 0% = €5
Rice price with VAT = €1 and with VAT @ 13.5% = €1.13 etc

Sorry the poll is a bit bias

jor el

All consumer prices must include VAT. There's no requirement to display the ex-VAT price, or the VAT rate for a particular product.

Elmo

jor el wrote: »

There's no requirement to display the ex-VAT price, or the VAT rate for a particular product.

I am asking should there be a requirement?

I know VAT is included in all prices.

hedgehog33

I think the VAT amount and rate is usually on receipts isn't it? I don't think there is any real need to include it on price tags/labels, not sure what that would achieve?

Guy:Incognito

Why?What difference does it make if Vat is 0% or 80%? The price is the price.

wmpdd3

I think it should be shown especially on health and beauty and baby products.

Tampons and nappies at a luxury rate of 21%!!

Elmo

Stekelly wrote: »

Why?What difference does it make if Vat is 0% or 80%? The price is the price.

Just so that it is transparent to customers as to how much VAT they are paying. For example their are some items that don't carry VAT, and people show know which ones do and do not.

For example I am surprised that "Tampons and nappies at a luxury rate of 21%!!" but then I buy neither so perhaps it is a bit pointless :rolleyes: really they should be at 0%.

I really need to think about my arguments lol.

All I am saying it would be great to see how much the shop charges just in case they charge incorrectly.

Cool Mo D

It would be good because it would let people know how much tax they are paying.
VAT is a somewhat mysterious and invisible tax at the moment - it causes confusion when comparing prices with overseas too. I think it would be good for the debate on tax policy in Ireland if people had a better awareness of where the money was being raised was coming from.

Guy:Incognito

Elmo wrote: »

Just so that it is transparent to customers as to how much VAT they are paying. For example their are some items that don't carry VAT, and people show know which ones do and do not.

For example I am surprised that "Tampons and nappies at a luxury rate of 21%!!" but then I buy neither so perhaps it is a bit pointless :rolleyes: really they should be at 0%.

I really need to think about my arguments lol.

All I am saying it would be great to see how much the shop charges just in case they charge incorrectly.

Why not break down every chrge so? (import rates, cost from supplier etc)
You go to a shop and they have their price, you decide whether or not that price is acceptable. How the shop comes to have that price displayed is their own business.

Cool Mo D wrote: »

it causes confusion when comparing prices with overseas too. .

Only for people too lazy to do any research.

It often just gets in the way of people ranting anyway.

Elmo

Cool Mo D wrote: »

It would be good because it would let people know how much tax they are paying.
VAT is a somewhat mysterious and invisible tax at the moment - it causes confusion when comparing prices with overseas too. I think it would be good for the debate on tax policy in Ireland if people had a better awareness of where the money was being raised was coming from.

I think many people think that VAT is charged at 21.5% across all products and services.

Cool Mo D

Stekelly wrote: »

Why not break down every chrge so? (import rates, cost from supplier etc)
You go to a shop and they have their price, you decide whether or not that price is acceptable. How the shop comes to have that price displayed is their own business.




Only for people too lazy to do any research.

It often just gets in the way of people ranting anyway.

It's nothing to do with the shops - I don't think displaying VAT would help, or hurt retailers. It's more to create an awareness of where we are paying tax. I mean, VAT is as big a tax earner as income tax, but there is a real lack of transparency when you pay it, as you pay it.

Elmo wrote: »

I think many people think that VAT is charged at 21.5% across all products and services.

Indeed, and many don't think about it at all.

Elmo

Stekelly wrote: »

Why not break down every chrge so? (import rates, cost from supplier etc)
You go to a shop and they have their price, you decide whether or not that price is acceptable. How the shop comes to have that price displayed is their own business.

Breaking down every charge would be a bit pointless I understand that everyone has to make a profit on the product. The retailer makes a decision on the price and will consider VAT but in the main they hope to make a profit.

There are plenty of stupid rules on how shops display their prices, this idea wouldn't be half as stupid as the rest of the rules.

Remember all bars and restaurants must provided their menu on the front of their business why should they have to?

foggy_lad

wmpdd3 wrote: »

I think it should be shown especially on health and beauty and baby products.

Tampons and nappies at a luxury rate of 21%!!

i think the vat is zero on cloth nappies and only 21% on disposable nappies but could be wrong? also the price labels are cluttered enough in shops with product sizes etc and many shops already have trouble displaying the correct prices so having to display the ex-vat price also would probably lead to a deteroiation in service in shops?

Elmo

foggy_lad wrote: »

i think the vat is zero on cloth nappies and only 21% on disposable nappies but could be wrong? also the price labels are cluttered enough in shops with product sizes etc and many shops already have trouble displaying the correct prices so having to display the ex-vat price also would probably lead to a deteroiation in service in shops?

The price label should be separate to the size etc, it generally is. I am sure their are many shops that don't even know that cloth nappies are charged a 0% VAT time they start to take an interest.

Cabaal

Nah no need to show VAT %, if people want to fibnd out this info is easy find it out, its only a waste of money/time for shops to have to display iut and it doesn't make a different if people want it they'll have to buy it

so overall no advantage

MunsterCycling

loads of short sighted comments here. As has been said, people pay vat without thinking and as stealth taxes go its the biggest. Displaying the tax rate/amount on an sel would be a 15 sec software update and make people aware of just how much tax they pay on a daily basis. Perhaps only shops with a certain level of turnover should be included in the scheme.

MC

Elmo

Cabaal wrote: »

Nah no need to show VAT %, if people want to fibnd out this info is easy find it out, its only a waste of money/time for shops to have to display iut and it doesn't make a different if people want it they'll have to buy it

so overall no advantage

Well do you how much VAT is on Coffee? or Digestive Biscuits?

Blue_Wolf

Stekelly wrote: »

Why?What difference does it make if Vat is 0% or 80%? The price is the price.

Ya I don't really see the point of this post....

Elmo

Blue_Wolf wrote: »

Ya I don't really see the point of this post....

My point being that most people think that all rates of VAT went up in the last budget. People don't know how much VAT they pay on products and some shops could be charging VAT on products that don't require VAT. People should be informed and VAT should be transparent.

MysticalSoul

I voted no, as if they did, can see it ending up like it is in the States, where the VAT is added on at the till, so the price we see is not the price we pay :rolleyes:

Cool Mo D

MysticalSoul wrote: »

I voted no, as if they did, can see it ending up like it is in the States, where the VAT is added on at the till, so the price we see is not the price we pay :rolleyes:

That's because sales tax varies hugely across the states. There is no such thing as VAT - sales taxes are not levied by the US Government, but by individual states, counties and cities. There are thousands of rates across the states, so it's easier to label the one price across the country, and add tax at the till. That wouldn't be that case with this proposal.

jor el

I say no, because it makes no difference. You can't buy anything without the appropriate VAT, and I see no point in knowing what it is, other than to piss us off by knowing how much tax is on a choccy biscuit or a cup of tea (it's zero on tea). It serves no purpose at the end of the day.

It's not difficult to see the various VAT rates, and what they apply to. Putting it on the SEL labels in shops does nothing, IMO.

Cabaal

Elmo wrote: »

Well do you how much VAT is on Coffee? or Digestive Biscuits?

Info is available as already posted by other users, its not the shops fault people are too lazy to go find it out for themselfs

Shelflife

Instead of a shelf edge label there will have to be a book with each product, listing price , vat rate, country of origin , product description and cost per unit.

anything else you want? and maybe the shopkeeper should stand over them with a big stick untill they read all of this information.

too many people expect to be spoonfed everything thay want

darc

wmpdd3 wrote: »

I think it should be shown especially on health and beauty and baby products.

Tampons and nappies at a luxury rate of 21%!!

The standard rate of VAT is 21.5% - There's no "Luxury" rate.
There's a reduced rate of 13.5% & a special rate of 5%.

You can be certain the UK gov will increase the vat rate in the budget back to 17.5% and there will be substantial duty increases on alcohol, cigs & fuel (as announced last October by G Brown) - This combined with continued price reductions here shold see some of the bigger price difefrences fall back.

As for VAT on goods, I'd say a symbol beside each item & details of rates at bottom of receipt wuld be easy to implement for larger retailers.

Cabaal

darc wrote: »

As for VAT on goods, I'd say a symbol beside each item & details of rates at bottom of receipt wuld be easy to implement for larger retailers.

Maybe so but how about the smaller one's. it'll cost them money to implement such changes,

Elmo

Cabaal wrote: »

Maybe so but how about the smaller one's. it'll cost them money to implement such changes,

They have accountants who detail their VAT who know which VAT rate is on which product. Smaller retails simply write the following

Barry's Tea
€2
0% VAT
Total €2

Maxwell House Coffee
€2
13.5% VAT (It's 21% possibly)
Total €2.27

This isn't difficult. Just because you are educated in VAT rates and read boards does mean everyone does. The system should be as transparent as possible.

It would cost the retailer nothing extra since they already do it.

jor el

darc wrote: »

The standard rate of VAT is 21.5% - There's no "Luxury" rate.
There's a reduced rate of 13.5% & a special rate of 5%.

4.8% There's also 0% and Vat exempt (apparently not the same thing).

Elmo wrote: »

They have accountants who detail their VAT who know which VAT rate is on which product. Smaller retails simply write the following
...

It would cost the retailer nothing extra since they already do it.

The shop will know the VAT rates on everything, but that doesn't mean it'll be simple or free for them to get the tills, receipts, SEL printer to display them. It would depend on the system they use, and whether it allows them to print this information separately.

I still don't see why this would be a good idea though. I really don't care how much VAT is on the products that I buy, as I don't have a choice but to pay it.


Coffee is 0% too.

Elmo

jor el wrote: »

Coffee is 0% too.

Really I thought it had VAT as it is not consider essential from old.

Anyway I amn't talking about the receipt I am talking about price tags, just to let the customer know what they are spending in VAT. I don't think it should tot-up the amount you pay in VAT. Just what is on the specific product's price tag. But now that you say it

wmpdd3

The only thing I like about LIDL is that on your receipt it details how much VAT you paid on each item. But of course they don't sell everything so I only know how much VAT is on the items they do sell.

When the 15% rate was introduced in GB most chains did a VAT refund on the bottom of the receipt, they were in undated with customers crying fraud because the refund didn't show a refund for each item. People had no idea what VAT they were paying before that, but they do now...

And yes I think that's right cloth nappies are childrens clothing so no VAT, but disposable nappies are a cosmetic luxury so VAT!

parsi

What's the point ?

Cloth nappies are 0% VAT and cost a fiver (for example),
Pampers are 21% VAT and cost a tennder (for example).

So what do I base my purchase on -

- the rate of VAT - NO - because it makes no difference to me,
- the VAT-inclusive price - probably because that's what I have to pay,
- convenience - yes.

VAT applies to classes of products, people make choices based on price/quality within a class. Joe Soap isn't going to buy vat-free tea if he actually wants a packet of chocolate kimberleys.

And how would it make price comparisons easier across the EU ?

biko

Knowing the VAT is only interesting if you can claim it back, i.e. is a business or a tourist.

Elmo

parsi wrote: »

What's the point ?

Cloth nappies are 0% VAT and cost a fiver (for example),
Pampers are 21% VAT and cost a tennder (for example).

So what do I base my purchase on -

- the rate of VAT - NO - because it makes no difference to me,
- the VAT-inclusive price - probably because that's what I have to pay,
- convenience - yes.

Well you might purchase the cloth nappies if they are cheaper due to the VAT on them. Disposable nappies could cost the same as cloth ones only more expensive due to the carry VAT they carry. This would be transparent to you if you are shopping around.

I amn't suggesting getting rid of the price inclusive of VAT only adding the price on the price take ex VAT.

Elmo

Magnus wrote: »

Knowing the VAT is only interesting if you can claim it back, i.e. is a business or a tourist.

Also if you find that products in NI are cheaper when you go with ROI VAT, depending on the VAT Rate. If ROI VAT went to 10% we would all claim back our NI VAT wouldn't we? Could we?

rubadub

Stekelly wrote: »

Why?What difference does it make if Vat is 0% or 80%? The price is the price.

Magnus wrote: »

Knowing the VAT is only interesting if you can claim it back, i.e. is a business or a tourist.

+1. I know our accounts dept. is interested in VAT. Dunno why so many are against this idea.

Elmo wrote: »

Breaking down every charge would be a bit pointless I understand that everyone has to make a profit on the product. The retailer makes a decision on the price and will consider VAT but in the main they hope to make a profit.

It shows how much they are really selling the item for. Airlines have been doing this for ages just to really show up how cheap they really are.

If a person went into a shop and wanted say bulk foods for work they might look at 2 different foods, same price displayed, around the same amount of food, but one is zero VAT and the other is 21.5%. Now the business person might go for the high VAT one and then claim it back. On the otherhand the person who has to pay the VAT might go for the high VAT one. The reasoning being that they are getting the same nourishment at the same price, BUT they are also contributing money towards the economy.

The retailer could well have overpriced the VAT free item to bring it up to the other foods price range, the average person off the street might be unaware of this. Reduced/no VAT items are often intended to make them more affordable to people, like childrens clothes etc, in many cases I expect retailers simply hope people forget this. e.g. a jeans store might sell kids and adult jeans at the same price.

MysticalSoul wrote: »

I voted no, as if they did, can see it ending up like it is in the States, where the VAT is added on at the till, so the price we see is not the price we pay :rolleyes:

The OP already said it would have both.

jor el wrote: »

I still don't see why this would be a good idea though. I really don't care how much VAT is on the products that I buy, as I don't have a choice but to pay it.

I would care about sly shops making an extra 21.5% off me when the gov really intended me to get that off. It helps consumers to compare the real value of products.

parsi

rubadub wrote: »

I would care about sly shops making an extra 21.5% off me when the gov really intended me to get that off. It helps consumers to compare the real value of products.

So you believe that a shop that is somehow deliberately charging the wrong VAT rate is going to put it up on a label for all to see ?

To the consumer it's the price that they pay that counts.

Elmo

parsi wrote: »

So you believe that a shop that is somehow deliberately charging the wrong VAT rate is going to put it up on a label for all to see ?

To the consumer it's the price that they pay that counts.

What the poster is talking about is when the Margin for Children's Clothes and Shoes are greater than those for Adults because the shop knows there is no VAT on these products hence rather than passing on the savings to the customer they make an extra amount.

I wouldn't be surprised if Retailers take advantage of the VAT free Children's clothes.

Danno

They should at least state:

€12.15 including 21.5% VAT

OR

€12.15 Including €2.15 VAT

antoinolachtnai

I think that the OP makes a very fair point in principle. People generally don't know or understand much about VAT, despite it being a very important tax, and is the closest we have to a Euro-tax, since it is controlled from Europe to a greater degree than any of the others (not saying this is a bad thing).

Would the proposal really be of any practical use to the customer though? Would adding an extra couple of numbers really make anything clearer?

Also, you have to consider the bureaucracy it would introduce. There is no requirement for sellers to break down between purchase price and VAT at any stage of the sales process. VAT is already a bit of a paper-generator. It would be a lot of extra work, especially for small retailers. And what if they made a mistake?

There are also ambiguities in VAT that mean that calculating and stating the vat paid is not as simple as a calculation on an individual transaction. For example, the nominal VAT rate on the till receipt for a cake in Starbucks is 13.5 percent, but the actual VAT paid by the company is probably more (where the cake is not eaten in conjunction with a meal, a higher rate applies).

Similarly, there are 'compound' product issues. The VAT on a Quarter Pounder with Cheese meal in McDonalds stands at 15.05 percent, according to the till receipt. This comprimise on the rate was come to through a detailed negotiation process (or so I am given to understand). But how do you explain an arrangement like this on a till receipt?

MunsterCycling

Its like the divorce referendum, No MY marriage is perfect therefore no one should have the right to divorce... :rolleyes:

So many short-sighted naysayers that don't want the blinkers to come off, please stop the nonsense and accept that information is key to decision making and that by requiring shops over a certain turnover to display this information you enable the consumer to make an informed choice.

MC

Cabaal

MunsterCycling wrote: »

Its like the divorce referendum, No MY marriage is perfect therefore no one should have the right to divorce... :rolleyes:

So many short-sighted naysayers that don't want the blinkers to come off, please stop the nonsense and accept that information is key to decision making and that by requiring shops over a certain turnover to display this information you enable the consumer to make an informed choice.

MC

Hang on, the information is available its just lazy people not willing to look for it.

You can't in anyway compare this to divorce unless of course the info is being hidden from people and its illegal to obtain it (ala illegal to get divorced previously)

Come up with a better comparison

parsi

MunsterCycling wrote: »

you enable the consumer to make an informed choice.

MC

How ?

Knowing the VAT rate doesn't affect the price you pay.

jor el

rubadub wrote: »

I would care about sly shops making an extra 21.5% off me when the gov really intended me to get that off. It helps consumers to compare the real value of products.

Shops charging the wrong VAT rate on items is a far more serious issue than just making the customer aware of the different rates. An audit would show up dodgy dealings like this, even their own accountant should be able to keep this in check. I wouldn't imagine that this kind of fraud is widespread either.

MunsterCycling wrote: »

So many short-sighted naysayers that don't want the blinkers to come off, please stop the nonsense and accept that information is key to decision making and that by requiring shops over a certain turnover to display this information you enable the consumer to make an informed choice.

There are no blinkers on me. I know I pay VAT on most products and services. I also know that I have no choice but to pay it on the items that have VAT, so how does it help me to make an informed choice?

As someone else said, it's not as though you'll choose to replace your chocolate bars, which have 21.5% VAT, with tea which, has 0% VAT.

Is it better value for money, just because it has no VAT? No, it isn't. You could replace the expensive biscuits you buy in Tesco, with the cheaper ones in Lidl, that would be better value for money.

I do get what people are saying, about it being nice to see the VAT charged on goods, but I don't see it as something that's really necessary, and it doesn't help to make any kind of informed choice about what you're buying, and alternatives, IMO.

Thoie

I'd say "no" to stop people whining about the fact that the sticker says a tenner, but I'm being charged 12 odd at the till. If we introduce that rule, we'll also need to bring in a rule saying that the total price payable is in much much bigger font than any other numbers on the stickers. This then starts becoming a pain in the neck for retailers as they'll have to go adjust their various printing machine/pricing guns.

thebman

I think it would increase awareness of the different rates of vat and what the items they are applied to.

To see it on a receipt allows someone to directly see how it impacts on their life and day to day purchases instead of making them work it out (which few do).

The real benefit is that in an election if a party says it will lower or raise a particular rate of vat, people will know immediately where it will effect them.

So I say yes as it will allow people to more transparently see the vat rates. I think it should be on receipts and not on the shelves. It should be the percentage and not the actual amount paid.

Elmo

Thoie wrote: »

I'd say "no" to stop people whining about the fact that the sticker says a tenner, but I'm being charged 12 odd at the till. If we introduce that rule, we'll also need to bring in a rule saying that the total price payable is in much much bigger font than any other numbers on the stickers. This then starts becoming a pain in the neck for retailers as they'll have to go adjust their various printing machine/pricing guns.

I as I said in my OP and in my other posts: - I am not asking them to remove the full price from the price tag just to have the price without VAT/or the VAT Rate on the price tag. I do not want it to be like in the US where the Tax is added at the till.

Danno

And I would go one further aswell...

Certain "luxuries" like a litre of petrol/diesel should display: Price, VAT and Excise Duty...

...actually, the wrong order there... Price, Excise Duty and VAT. Show the public where a Tax is Taxed.

antoinolachtnai

What about situations where the retailer is forbidden from showing the VAT separately?

Elmo

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

What about situations where the retailer is forbidden from showing the VAT separately?

When does this happy? and why?

antoinolachtnai

The margin scheme

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/leaflets/margin-scheme-second-hand-goods.html

A subtle kink in the VAT continuum.

Also, gambling activity. It is not and would not be practical to state the VAT, which is calculated on the net take, not the turnover. So it is impossible to calculate the actual exact VAT on an individual transaction.

Also, where a non-registered person is selling goods they purchased from a registered person. So if I buy a can of coke for 61 cents, of which 11c is VAT, and I sell it to you for a euro (from a stall on the fringes of a public event, maybe over my garden wall) the VAT would be 11c on the one euro transaction. If I disclosed this to you, you would effectively know my gross margin which might not be good for me commercially. It would also be difficult for me to constantly recalculate the VAT because it would depend on which supplier and at what price I had sourced each individual good.

There is lots to know about VAT for serious students of the subject. There are plenty of other gotchas where things aren't obvious. (I gave the starbucks example and the McDonalds example, but there are plenty of other debatable areas.)

I cannot understand the idea that displaying VAT would be of any immediate benefit to the customer at the point of sale. Maybe it would be better to spend the money this would cost on a sustained public education scheme explaining the virtues and otherwise of VAT?

There are serious issues in the European VAT system which need addressing, mainly around record-keeping and fraud. Customer awareness of rates is not generally perceived to be one of the bigger problems.

Elmo

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The margin scheme

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/leaflets/margin-scheme-second-hand-goods.html

A subtle kink in the VAT continuum.

Also, gambling activity. It is not and would not be practical to state the VAT, which is calculated on the net take, not the turnover. So it is impossible to calculate the actual exact VAT on an individual transaction.

Also, where a non-registered person is selling goods they purchased from a registered person. So if I buy a can of coke for 61 cents, of which 11c is VAT, and I sell it to you for a euro (from a stall on the fringes of a public event, maybe over my garden wall) the VAT would be 11c on the one euro transaction. If I disclosed this to you, you would effectively know my gross margin which might not be good for me commercially. It would also be difficult for me to constantly recalculate the VAT because it would depend on which supplier and at what price I had sourced each individual good.

There is lots to know about VAT for serious students of the subject. There are plenty of other gotchas where things aren't obvious. (I gave the starbucks example and the McDonalds example, but there are plenty of other debatable areas.)

I cannot understand the idea that displaying VAT would be of any immediate benefit to the customer at the point of sale. Maybe it would be better to spend the money this would cost on a sustained public education scheme explaining the virtues and otherwise of VAT?

Just in the same way as their are exceptions in most laws their can be exceptions in this one.

As for the non-regulated person selling in a garden. If I am your competitor and I bought my product for 61c and charged 90c that means I make 10c less then you on that product. No reason not to show that VAT was charged at the 61c, but this is just being picky on your behalf as I don't think at such an event people really care. However if concerts are part of this loop hole we can guess that the 5euro for a small plastic glass of **** beer is over priced, but then we knew this already. Again this could be exempted as could your other examples.

Education in VAT is expensive why not just tell the retailers to ensure that they educate their customer as part of their social conscience.

I don't see why a restaurant couldn't provide VAT rates, aren't all products in a Restaurant charged at the same rate (I am thinking 21.5%).