Any chance of a charter update?

Owen

Specifically to include no discussions about VRT being illegal? We get a rant every few days about it, it's like the foglight threads.

Just to clarify on the purpose of this poll, and why you should vote one way or the other :

This is not a poll to end discussion on VRT. Discussion on VRT, the OMSP ripoffs, the advantages of importing and exporting are a great addition to the Motoring Forum, and long may they continue. No one wants to affect the free speech on boards.ie's Motoring Forum.

What this is, is a poll asking that the charter be modified to prohibit people incorrectly coming into threads and hijacking them by using the 'VRT is illegal' argument and heading off on unending pointless rants to prove their point - even though they're wrong. It's wasting all of our time, and creating meaningless debate that gets regurgitated every few days that we could do without.

EPM

And Skoda Octavia boots;)

peasant

Thread now with added bacon flavour poll

Anan1

I don't see a problem with VRT discussion in general, it's just the endless (and groundless) claims that VRT is illegal that are becoming a bit wearing.

stealthyspeeder

VRT is a major issue in Ireland, many people want to know more about it. The facts are on governments website. It is legal.

Unethical, unfair, contentious and unrespected (by a few) but as the law stands at the mo - legal

So no point posting it, maybe someone make a thread with why VRT is legal (a kinda definitive answer) a mod could lock the thread and any future posts about it get a straight link to that post?

peasant

Anan1 wrote: »

I don't see a problem with VRT discussion in general, it's just the endless (and groundless) claims that VRT is illegal that are becoming a bit wearing.

poll now with cheese & onion flavour appropriate poll question

homer90

It does get a bit annoying....... (just read the VRT clamp down thread)

Owen

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

VRT is a major issue in Ireland, many people want to know more about it. The facts are on governments website but the feelings and experiences of people who pay, about to pay, are thinking of paying, who will not pay, people exempt, people who hate it need somewhere to go! I think the motors section of boards.ie does the job well.

No one's disputing that - discussion on VRT is a great thing for us to have. It's the whole 'it's illegal' rants that we're voting on excluding.

robtri

I think VRT is a big issue for motorists... I would like to see the talk about it stopped and have a sticky with all the facts about it and a link to the VRT website, help direct people to the right info, lets face it like it or not it is a tax that currently has to be paid ( exemptions noted) and have the sticky not open to comments.

stealthyspeeder

poll question changed since I posted my reply, I've edited it!

crocro

robtri wrote: »

I think VRT is a big issue for motorists... I would like to see the talk about it stopped and have a sticky with all the facts about it and a link to the VRT website, help direct people to the right info, lets face it like it or not it is a tax that currently has to be paid ( exemptions noted) and have the sticky not open to comments.

I agree with this. I don't like paying VRT but I am tired of reading that it is illegal when it is not.

The legality of VRT was clearly laid out by the european commission in 2004
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2004_2009/documents/cm/536/536456/536456en.pdf
Most countries operate VRT but only a few charge more than Ireland (such as Denmark)

The commission wants to abolish VRT by 2016 but needs unanimous agreement from all countries.
http://www.kpmg.nl/Docs/Corporate_Site/English/MF_oct.pdf

sparklepants

robtri wrote: »

I think VRT is a big issue for motorists... I would like to see the talk about it stopped and have a sticky with all the facts about it and a link to the VRT website, help direct people to the right info, lets face it like it or not it is a tax that currently has to be paid ( exemptions noted) and have the sticky not open to comments.

This is a sensible proposal.

Could I suggest that posters who encourage other people not to pay VRT should be banned from the forum?

stealthyspeeder

sparklepants wrote: »

This is a sensible proposal.

Could I suggest that posters who encourage other people not to pay VRT should be banned from the forum?

I think that is wrong, if someone falls into an excemption from VRT, and they come on this forum as they are unsure and seeking advise, the correct thing in this situation would be to point out that they do not have to pay VRT and why, a blanket ban on encouraging people not to pay VRT would scare people into not posting this info and could end up with some people who do not need to pay VRT actually paying it.

Anan1

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

I think that is wrong, if someone falls into an excemption from VRT, and they come on this forum as they are unsure and seeking advise, the correct thing in this situation would be to point out that they do not have to pay VRT and why, a blanket ban on encouraging people not to pay VRT would scare people into not posting this info and could end up with some people who do not need to pay VRT actually paying it.

I think sparklepants is talking about people advising others to evade VRT payment when they owe it.;)

Owen

I think we could have a million billion suggestions by the time this thread is finished - which will only dilute the original question. Any chance we could keep it on topic for this one, and open up other threads as needed?

stealthyspeeder

Anan1 wrote: »

I think sparklepants is talking about people advising others to evade VRT payment when they owe it.;)

I dont think thats what sparklepants said!;)

Get your point though, but as we can see from the other VRT clampdown thread, its a very emotive subject and to censor (in my estimate) about 30% of the opinion os people (the f*ck VRT brigade) by banning them is more than harsh!

kuro_man

While VRT in itself is not illegal, the method of it's implemented may be; systematically overstated OMSPs are a form of protectionism.
I have a complaint in with the EU commission and they have agreed to investigate it. I would like be able post the findings.

Perhaps moderators could simple close "VRT is illegal/unfair" threads if they has nothing new to add. I think overstated OMSP's and results of appeals should be allowed, though, as they are informative.

stealthyspeeder

ned78 wrote: »

I think we could have a million billion suggestions by the time this thread is finished - which will only dilute the original question. Any chance we could keep it on topic for this one, and open up other threads as needed?

http://kcfac.kilgore.cc.tx.us/mobleypageap2/images/can%20of%20worms.jpg






You opened it!:D

sparklepants

sparklepants wrote: »

This is a sensible proposal.

Could I suggest that posters who encourage other people not to pay VRT should be banned from the forum?

So you want to stop people from expressing their opinion? That would take away the whole point of boards imo.

-Chris-

Make one big "VRT" thread, just like the "Help me sell my car" and "How to import from the UK" threads.

I think the discussion is worth having, but I hate the fact that the exact same thread starts every few weeks, with the exact same people rehashing the exact same opinions. It's a bit Groundhog Day tbh.

While we're at it, can we start a dedicated "value my car for me" thread?

Owen

Despite wording the first post carefully, I think the point has really been watered down with discussions. For the sake of it, let me re-iterare.

I'm proposing we ban discussion on the subject 'VRT is illegal' only. People would be free to discuss VRT, OMSP ripoffs, UK importing, and dodging VRT as usual.

Please bear in mind while voting that it's only 1 specific issue we're voting on, and not what everyone else has been discussing here in this thread.

Owen

AudiChris wrote: »

Make one big "VRT" thread, just like the "Help me sell my car" and "How to import from the UK" threads.

I think the discussion is worth having, but I hate the fact that the exact same thread starts every few weeks, with the exact same people rehashing the exact same opinions. It's a bit Groundhog Day tbh.

While we're at it, can we start a dedicated "value my car for me" thread?

I suggested this a few months back, that we open up a subforum called FAMQ - or Frequently Asked Motoring Questions, where topics that recurr could be relegated to. It would clean up the forum in it's current guise.

stealthyspeeder

ned78 wrote: »

Despite wording the first post carefully, I think the point has really been watered down with discussions. For the sake of it, let me re-iterare.

I'm proposing we ban discussion on the subject 'VRT is illegal' only. People would be free to discuss VRT, OMSP ripoffs, UK importing, and dodging VRT as usual.

Please bear in mind while voting that it's only 1 specific issue we're voting on, and not what everyone else has been discussing here in this thread.

Apologies:rolleyes:

I agree, it is legal end of!

If anyone posts otherwise im sure someone will send them a link!

Hagar

VRT is legal but the way it has been manipulated by the Govt to get around their legal requirements to comply with other EU legislation regarding import tarrif duties etc is morally reprehensible. Should we stop people expressing their outrage against this injustice? I don't think so. If we do we are supporting it by passive, silent, sheepish consent. Allow people to speak out against it, it is the only way to achieve change.

Anan1

Hagar wrote: »

VRT is legal but the way it has been manipulated by the Govt to get around their legal requirements to comply with other EU legislation regarding import tarrif duties etc is morally reprehensible. Should we stop people expressing their outrage against this injustice? I don't think so. If we do we are supporting it by passive, silent sheepish consent. Allow people to speak out against it, it is the only way to achieve change.

Did you read ned78's posts at all?;)

Owen

Hagar wrote: »

Should we stop people expressing their outrage against this injustice? I don't think so.

It's not an injustice. It's a legal tax, and we're proposing that the people who come into the forum shouting that 'it's illegal' be pointed to the charter where they will find the correct information.

This is a simple proposal to point people in error in the right direction, by including new information in the charter. I don't see how anyone could have an issue with it.

Hagar

Yes I did. The poll contains a double negative and tbh is not very clear.
I was trying to express my views unambigously.

Ned78 wrote:

It's not an injustice. It's a legal tax

Not all legal taxes are just.

Gary ITR

Anan1 wrote: »

Did you read ned78's posts at all?;)

Ah Hagar is the bumbling old man of boards. In fact I'd like to start a campaign to have him renamed 'Albert Trotter'

:DHope you don't take offence Hagar just couldn't resist:D


I'm pretty sick of seeing the same old incorrect bull too, but who of the people that post this kind of drivel are actually going to read the charter. All this would achieve is an increased workload for Peasant, Unkel and Kbannon and the boys are busy enough as it is







Edit: FWIW anytime I see a thread title containing 'VRT' I tend not to bother reading it because I know exactly what I'm going to read, usually containing the following

'Why should the rest of us pay when you don't bother'
'Must be paid when getting off the boat'
'It's illegal'
'no it's not'
'it's a rip off'

Owen

Hagar wrote: »

Not all legal taxes are just.

It's not a morality poll. Its a poll to drive out stupidity. You can continue the moral crusades in normal threads as usual.

The sole purpose of this thread and poll is to end people coming in proclaiming it's illegal, arguing that it's illegal, only to discover 4 pages later that they were wrong in the first place.

*sigh* I've updated the first post in the hopes that people will actually read the point of this thread - and I'm pleading with people not to drag it off topic any further than it already has been.

Hagar

ned78 wrote: »

The sole purpose of this thread and poll is to end people coming in proclaiming it's illegal, arguing that it's illegal, only to discover 4 pages later that they were wrong in the first place.

Fair enough Ned, VRT is legal under Irish law, is it legal under EU law ?
Did I imagine the EU reprimanding the Irish Govt and directing them to change Irish legislation to comply with the spirit of the EU laws which also bind us as EU citizens? I thought EU legislation took precedence? If so that would make the cuurent Irish law illegal wouldn't it?

I can see this is getting us nowhere so I'll withdraw, I didn't mean to bugger up your thread. if a mod would like to nullify my 1 no vote that's ok too.

Onkle wrote: »

Ah Hagar is the bumbling old man of boards. In fact I'd like to start a campaign to have him renamed 'Albert Trotter'

:DHope you don't take offence Hagar just couldn't resist:D

You could be right, that's the scary part.

Owen

Hagar wrote: »

if a mod would like to nullify my 1 no vote that's ok too.

You change your vote if you wish.