Stockbroking_ Is it as glamorous as in the movies.

Daragh101

I was looking at stockbroking as a possible career!!!!!!

I love the stockmarket nd investing,etc.

just like to no about: Pay/ working conditions/ standard working week etc..any info...

thanks:)

farva

Depends... what area are you looking to get into? What are you doing in college (I assume you're in college)?

I don't think that students in Ireland really know what "stockbroking" actually is and tend to call "investment banking" stockbroking - I know that I didn't know the correct meaning of the term when I was in 1st / 2nd year in college and thought that traders were stockbrokers. Whereas I suppose it's really sales traders who are traditional "stockbrokers".

There are lots of areas in investment banking such as trading (loads of different types of traders - commodities, equities, fixed income, futures...) sales trading, asset management, mergers & acquisitions / corporate finance, wealth management, private equity / venture capital, operations...

A lot of the Irish stockbrokers are essentially investment banks (without taking deposits or giving loans) and the Irish banks have operations in most of the investment banking areas

Daragh101

im doing a business degree!!!!!!!1st year......

i like the stock market, and have traded some uk stocks over the last year....i rhink i would like the work involved. i realise your day would start at 7 till about 6 which is a big downside.is there any kind of broker that doesnt work these hours????????

Idu

Daragh101 wrote: »

i realise your day would start at 7 till about 6 which is a big downside.is there any kind of broker that doesnt work these hours????????

Not saying your lazy but if you're not happy to work these hours then there's no point even trying to get involved

Daragh101

if i had to, i would work these hours, its just it doesnt leave much time for anything else..........i do want to get into a job like stockbroking as it seems like a job i would enjoy/like,,

pocketdooz

Daragh101 wrote: »

im doing a business degree!!!!!!!1st year......

i like the stock market, and have traded some uk stocks over the last year....i rhink i would like the work involved. i realise your day would start at 7 till about 6 which is a big downside.is there any kind of broker that doesnt work these hours????????

lol, i wish I has those hours. Seriously though, we work about 7.30 - 8.30 standard and at least two days a week you're in til ten and usually 2 weekends a month on average.

It takes up 80% of your time but if you can manage your time well, you still have time for football, women, boozing, gym etc etc.

BUt bear this in mind when you start looking. Also, in London, the hours are generally longer. My cousin works about 80-90 hours a week standard. The hours decrease as you get more experienced though - generally the first 2 years are the worst.

best of luck - you'll know if it's for you by the time you finsih college. Just dont expect easy money !

EDIT - there's not many other jobs where you earn €50k plus at 22/23 years old.

Daragh101

jesus thats unreal long.......am, do you get any holidays during the year apart from when the markets close??????

Hanley

Just coming on from what Pocketdooz said.... pay isn't that great.

80-90 hours a week = say 85 on average
times 52 weeks
equals 4,420 hours a year

€50,000/4,420 = 11.31ph

DJDC

Most people mix up stockbroking and trading. The first thing you have to decide is which one suits your personalities. Are you really good at maths or are you are a really good salesman? If you do want to become a stockbroker then London firms like ICAP are the best option. But like every good graduate job nowadays due an oversupply of graduates expect some serious competition.

Daragh101

Hanley wrote: »

Just coming on from what Pocketdooz said.... pay isn't that great.

80-90 hours a week = say 85 on average
times 52 weeks
equals 4,420 hours a year

€50,000/4,420 = 11.31ph

ya but as far as i no, its the bonuses that make the job so attractive......

farva

DJDC wrote: »

Most people mix up stockbroking and trading.

Bang on!

Basically it sounds like you're interested in trading, I was exactly the same from the age of 16 and am working in the investment banking industry now.

With regard to trading, you'd generally have 12/13 hour days 5 days a week with no lunch break. The exact hours worked depend on what you're trading and what market it's on. Investment banking (Corporate Finance / M&A) in London is well regarded with having the worst hours by far - easily 100 hours per week!

London is (was) the place to be, I guess it still is but obviously the amount of opportunities for (Irish) grads has diminished MASSIVELY! London starts grads on say 2.5 to 3 times more than you'd get here but the jobs are far more competitive and the interviews are extremely hard, it's also a far more hire and fire culture than Dublin.

It's a tough area to get into at graduate level normally but in the current climate but near impossible. Generally I would have said that you're best bet is probably to start trading your own account but that is VERY RISKY in the current economic climate with the crazy volatility in international markets, particularly the ISEQ! You need something to stand out from the crowd when going for these jobs.

Checkout IBtalk - very good forum there. Feel free to PM me with any questions or to know about specific salaries or about other areas of investment banking.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

damnyanks

No its not as glamerous as the movies. You get in for 7 usually - dead busy till about 11:30. Spend a few hours following up a paper work. Things pick up after lunch. Then come 6 more paper work. There is always a buzz and its definitely a better place to work than most. (But this is when you compare it to the movies!)

You'll have a few different types of entities that exist.

Asset management type business units. This could range from a fund AIB manage to someone like IBM investing their own personal money. This type of group will hold positions (usually long - as in they own the product).

Brokers - they usually just match counter parties up. The majority of the bigger players in this side are gone almost all electronic. Person A at Bank A will want 300 3month bonds of Dunnes Stores the broker will find this guy what he wants or already have it on his books. Pure middleman.

Investment bank - called the sell side. They really just originate and create markets on different products. They deal in the secondary market in a big way but for the most part no bank really wants to rely on that. (Too risky) They grew a variety of different products over the last few years but now that everything has gone bad they are pulling out of a lot of the different areas.

Hedge fund - this is where real trading happens. They just take positions to make money and nothing else. For instance a lot of investment banks had internal hedge funds which were later split up from the company so they didnt pull everyone down with them!

Treasury desks - desks inside of large companies which manage the companies cash , fx and interest rate exposures.

Money you get depends on the type of company and the type of product you are involved in. The more basic the product (Cash anything, short term anything) will usually gain you very little (unless you are at a hedge fund and that's your strategy / market). It's also a bad time to really gauge how earning will be. I only know from an investment bank perspective that this year was poor in comparison to other years. I was working in one of the major investment banks who came through the credit crunch exceptionally well. Even hten juniors were getting no more than 100% of their salary as a bonus. Might sound ok - 50% goes to tax man though.

Daragh101

QUOTE - there's not many other jobs where you earn €50k plus at 22/23 years old.


like what?????????????????

farva

You wouldn't be earning €50k at 22/23 here even in the "good times", you'd want to be in London for that money at 22.

pocketdooz

farva wrote: »

You wouldn't be earning €50k at 22/23 here even in the "good times", you'd want to be in London for that money at 22.

Really?

Daragh101

farva wrote: »

You wouldn't be earning €50k at 22/23 here even in the "good times", you'd want to be in London for that money at 22.

ya but he said that there is a lot of jobs in which you can earn 50k+ at 22/23.......and i am unaware of any?????

pocketdooz

Daragh101 wrote: »

ya but he said that there is a lot of jobs in which you can earn 50k+ at 22/23.......and i am unaware of any?????

Nope . . . what I said was . . .

EDIT - there's not many other jobs where you earn €50k plus at 22/23 years old.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Daragh101

in fairness youd defo work hard for it seeing some of the hours they work..........

Im doing my leaving cert this year and im wondering about what i want to do.
im interested in economics, business and finance so stockbroking looks like an option, not sure now doh..............any sugestions?

pocketdooz

What did you choose as your first choice for your CAO?

Daragh101

business in UL

pocketdooz

Daragh101 wrote: »

business in UL

That's one of the best - they have a simulated trading room there and full access to Bloomberg and Datastream - you should have plenty of experience while you are there to help you out with your decision.

Enjoy college.

Daragh101

nice, thanks

ixus

Daragh101 wrote: »

business in UL

Daragh, if you end up in that course it looks like you get an option in year 2. Economics & Finance looks like it would be suited to you based on your postings.

I know some of the lecturers there. Listen to guys like Stephen Kinsella, James Ryan, Finbarr Murphy, Bernard Murphy, Fergal O'Brien and John Heneghan.
They are decent, knowledgable guys.

farva

daveirl wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Really? Like where? A small prop shop? Earning €50k at 22/23 would be straight out of college, there's only one company that I know of who pay that, and that's SIG but they only take super quanty people.

Darragh, you should consider courses which are more maths, stats, finance and economics based. "Business" degrees tend to be very general and lead to accounting. There tends to be little or no maths. Have a look at Economics & Finance in UCD.

Daragh101

farva wrote: »

Really? Like where? A small prop shop? Earning €50k at 22/23 would be straight out of college, there's only one company that I know of who pay that, and that's SIG but they only take super quanty people.

Darragh, you should consider courses which are more maths, stats, finance and economics based. "Business" degrees tend to be very general and lead to accounting. There tends to be little or no maths. Have a look at Economics & Finance in UCD.

I am doing pass math!!!! would you not need honours.

in this course you can major in economics and finance?

pocketdooz

farva wrote: »

Really? Like where? A small prop shop? Earning €50k at 22/23 would be straight out of college, there's only one company that I know of who pay that, and that's SIG but they only take super quanty people.

Darragh, you should consider courses which are more maths, stats, finance and economics based. "Business" degrees tend to be very general and lead to accounting. There tends to be little or no maths. Have a look at Economics & Finance in UCD.

There are more places than that Daragh - all the grads straight out of college in my place start on €45k plus bonus, you'll be on well over €50k in your second year.

Main thing is enjoy college whatever you do - no-one ever appreciates it as much as they should but it's the best time of your life (cliche I know but it's true)

Also - read, post and learn. Broaden your horizons past Irish stocks. They are for the dogs.

pocketdooz

Daragh101 wrote: »

I am doing pass math!!!! would you not need honours.

in this course you can major in economics and finance?

I did pass maths - no reflection - it's just time mgt. - honours maths takes up as long as 3 easy subjects like geography etc - it's a points/numbers game. Nobody cares once you get your 2.1 or higher

farva

pocketdooz wrote: »

There are more places than that Daragh - all the grads straight out of college in my place start on €45k plus bonus, you'll be on well over €50k in your second year.

Main thing is enjoy college whatever you do - no-one ever appreciates it as much as they should but it's the best time of your life (cliche I know but it's true)

Also - read, post and learn. Broaden your horizons past Irish stocks. They are for the dogs.

Do you mind me asking what area you’re working in? I’m working in M&A so I’d have a fair idea of what kind of money the Irish stockbrokers and banks start grads on and €45k + bonus is way over the norm.

pocketdooz

farva wrote: »

Do you mind me asking what area you’re working in? I’m working in M&A so I’d have a fair idea of what kind of money the Irish stockbrokers and banks start grads on and €45k + bonus is way over the norm.

Fixed Income - in IFSC

Some people on here know me and know I'm for real.

That's all I'm comfortable saying on here to be honest.

AARRRGH

Have a look at these guys: http://www.geneva-trading.com/

farva

That’s fair enough, I wouldn’t say where I work on a public forum either, I do find it surprising that a company in the IFSC is starting grads on €45k basic and neither me or any of my mates in trading positions here/London have heard of it. As far as I know the small prop shops like Geneva start you on an incredibly low basic (around €18k) but give you a good percentage of what you earn for them, maybe you could earn €50k + there straight out of college but you’d be out on your ear as quickly if you weren’t making money!

I disagree with pocketdooz on the “pass maths is ok so long as you have a 2:1”. I have mates working in trading positions in London and here and I interviewed for a couple myself - from mine and their experiences if you aren’t quantitatively strong you’re not getting a job in trading.
Look at the college courses that recruiter for trading positions target – Engineering, Physics, Maths, Statistics, Economics. The main problem for pass maths is that these courses require a minimum of a B/C in honours for entry. If you’re coming from a general business degree which will have virtually no exposure to quantitative areas (maths stats) with pass maths behind you, you’re at a serious disadvantage. I’m not saying that it can’t be done, if you’re trading your own account or have something to make you stand out you’d be in with a shot. I’d say that if you’re in pass maths due to laziness, do your best to get back into honours.

But having said that I’m not a trader, I’m in M&A.

pocketdooz

farva wrote: »

That’s fair enough, I wouldn’t say where I work on a public forum either, I do find it surprising that a company in the IFSC is starting grads on €45k basic and neither me or any of my mates in trading positions here/London have heard of it. As far as I know the small prop shops like Geneva start you on an incredibly low basic (around €18k) but give you a good percentage of what you earn for them, maybe you could earn €50k + there straight out of college but you’d be out on your ear as quickly if you weren’t making money!

I disagree with pocketdooz on the “pass maths is ok so long as you have a 2:1”. I have mates working in trading positions in London and here and I interviewed for a couple myself - from mine and their experiences if you aren’t quantitatively strong you’re not getting a job in trading.
Look at the college courses that recruiter for trading positions target – Engineering, Physics, Maths, Statistics, Economics. The main problem for pass maths is that these courses require a minimum of a B/C in honours for entry. If you’re coming from a general business degree which will have virtually no exposure to quantitative areas (maths stats) with pass maths behind you, you’re at a serious disadvantage. I’m not saying that it can’t be done, if you’re trading your own account or have something to make you stand out you’d be in with a shot. I’d say that if you’re in pass maths due to laziness, do your best to get back into honours.

But having said that I’m not a trader, I’m in M&A.

It's an fixed-income trading house - low-key and private. Start on €45k plus bonus plus perks (phone, food etc). A good few on this forum know it and know I work there.

I agree with your points on Maths - what I meant to say and didn't make myself clear was that when you interview for a company at age 22 or whatever they will be more interested in your more recent university results than how you did in Leaving. But if you can do honours maths and still have the time to do 5/6 other honours subjects you should do that.

I did a business degree and then masters in finance so for me it was irrelevant but if you want to get in to a course (which your course in UL is not I'm pretty sure) that requires honours maths then needless to say - do honours maths.

Daragh101

fair enough, im good with numbers, but not so good at the harder stuff.

DJDC

Dude, I am going to be honest with you and say that honestly doing pass Maths and a random business course, it is going to be almost impossible to get onto a front office graduate scheme in London. The HR robots are very elitist. The few that make the make the move every year generally all follow the same sterotype of 500+ point LC/excellent extracurriculars,economics/maths at TCD,UCD etc. Its an unfair fact of life that your CV wont pass through the initial filters. Your best bet is to try and stay and intern with companies like propshops in Dublin because they seem to put more emphasis on actual trading ability than LC marks/University reputuation etc.

Dont mean to be harsh but I think as farva will agree, I am just being realistic.

pocketdooz

Daragh - don't let people box in what these companies are looking for. The vast majority of the bulge bracket banks in London are looking for that typical person DJDC described. However there are literally hundreds of other companies (funds/prop shops/banks/PE groups/trading houses etc.etc) that hire on quality of person, references and interviews and don't consider Business in UL (the only course in the country with access to a simulated trading room, Bloomberg and Datastream) a random business course, nor do they care if you did pass maths when you were 17 or 18. You will be grinding as an analyst most likely for 2 years anyway and it's all modelled on computers now anyway so you don't need to be a maths whizz unless you're in quants (not saying you can be sh1t at maths but you know what I mean)

As you go through college you'll learn far more about it from experience and talking to classmates and lecturers. Best of luck with it but I will say if you're not prepared to put in 60-70 hours a week you might as well just forget about it now and find an interest in something else.

Edit: I have mates who did economics and politics and are working in Goldman, did law and are working in S&P and did e-commerce in a DIT and are working in Morgan Stanley so there are no set rules to be honest but DJDC is right - they will look most favourably onthe stereotypical person he outlined above. After you get the interview though it's up to you.

DJDC

I would just like to say I don't think the recruitment procedure of the banks in London is perfect but it is the metric they use to hire graduates.

Traders in particular should be hired far more on their inante intelligience and pyschology rather than academic results that mean sweet f.a in the real world. I think if you are clever enough and work hard enough, you can get a trading position.

Good luck.

dunkamania

Yes, but not falling into the HR's mould for traders, can cost you 5 or more years working your way up from back office

farva

DJDC wrote: »

Dude, I am going to be honest with you and say that honestly doing pass Maths and a random business course, it is going to be almost impossible to get onto a front office graduate scheme in London. The HR robots are very elitist. The few that make the make the move every year generally all follow the same sterotype of 500+ point LC/excellent extracurriculars,economics/maths at TCD,UCD etc. Its an unfair fact of life that your CV wont pass through the initial filters. Your best bet is to try and stay and intern with companies like propshops in Dublin because they seem to put more emphasis on actual trading ability than LC marks/University reputuation etc.

Dont mean to be harsh but I think as farva will agree, I am just being realistic.

A little harsh but true, I never applied to London as I didn't want to leave Ireland but I've a lot of mates who did and some are working there but most didn't get job offers.

Actually come to think about it this must all sound quite strange for someone still at school who was confusing stockbroking and trading at the start of this thread. I know that I didn't have a notion before 2nd year in college.

Daragh101

i did no stockbrokers deal with a lot more than just buying and selling stock.

im not saying stockbroking is/isnt what i want after 3rd level education im not sure yet, this is why i would opt for a course like business in UL because it leaves your options open.I only got interested in the whole stock market thing etc after reading a book "how to make money in stocks" which helped me make a couple of sucessful trades late last year.:)

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

damnyanks

Business in UL is fine. I've met a few people from there working in markets.

jhn_noln

hope im not hijacking the thread but im in a similar position to the OP (although a stage further in that im heading into my final year). Im doing a accounting and finance degree and will specialise in finance next year.
I hope to stay on and complete a masters in finance but i was just wondering is there a procedure similar to the "milkround" for accounting or has anyone a rough list of firms i should be looking to apply for come next september/october?

thanks in advance!