Northern Ireland Friends of Israel

mrtaylor1981

A new support group ( and about time too ) has been launched, Northern Ireland Friends of Israel. Hopefully they will have a website up soon with contact details etc. It's to counter the IRA supporters calling on a boycott of Israel. As a Northern Ireland citizen I can empathise with the Isreali's and their fight against terrorism. The great pity was that the British government did not the hard line with the terrorists like the Israeli's. Here is some more details from the Jerusalem Post.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1237392661225

FTA69

As a Northern Ireland citizen I can empathise with the Isreali's and their fight against terrorism.

As an Irish citizen I can empathise with the Palestinians and their fight against the occupation of their land by American and Russian immigrants.

Wasn't this the group launched by Ian Paisley? No surprise really, right-wing descendants of a planter people with a superiority complex supporting other right-wing descendants of a planter people with a superiority complex. Birds of a feather and whatnot.

mike65

Bomb throwing birds of a feather too eh FTA69?

FTA69

mike65 wrote: »

Bomb throwing birds of a feather too eh FTA69?

Que?

dlofnep

mrtaylor1981 wrote: »

A new support group ( and about time too ) has been launched, Northern Ireland Friends of Israel. Hopefully they will have a website up soon with contact details etc. It's to counter the IRA supporters calling on a boycott of Israel. As a Northern Ireland citizen I can empathise with the Isreali's and their fight against terrorism. The great pity was that the British government did not the hard line with the terrorists like the Israeli's. Here is some more details from the Jerusalem Post.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1237392661225

So, do you support any of the following?

• Displacement of Palestinian population, including bulldozing of their housing and land.

• Cold-blooded killing of women and children ( http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055516490 )

• Prevention of much needed medical attention to injured Palestinians ( Source )

• IDF members wearing t-shirts, which glorify the killing of women and children. ( Source )

• IDF members using an 11 year palestinian child as a human shield (Source )

dresden8

dlofnep wrote: »

So, do you support any of the following?

• Displacement of Palestinian population, including bulldozing of their housing and land.

• Cold-blooded killing of women and children ( http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055516490 )

• Prevention of much needed medical attention to injured Palestinians ( Source )

• IDF members wearing t-shirts, which glorify the killing of women and children. ( Source )

• IDF members using an 11 year palestinian child as a human shield (Source )

Well, yes he obviously does. And what's more he obviously thinks the same tactics should have been used in Belfast and Derry.

philologos

FTA69 wrote: »

As an Irish citizen I can empathise with the Palestinians and their fight against the occupation of their land by American and Russian immigrants.

As an Irish citizen, I can empathise with both. Israel has a right to exist, however abusing the rights of Palestinians is outright wrong. As for them being American or Russian, DNA shows that they have Semitic genes for the most part and that they have lineage from the former inhabitants of the land. I think they have a right to return to their ancestral homeland.

FTA69 wrote: »

Wasn't this the group launched by Ian Paisley? No surprise really, right-wing descendants of a planter people with a superiority complex supporting other right-wing descendants of a planter people with a superiority complex. Birds of a feather and whatnot.

I believe there is an Irish Friends of Israel too, infact in nearly every single country of the world you will find one. Yes, the NI one is set up by Ian Paisley, so what? It's hardly a new phenomenon.

dlofnep

Jakkass wrote: »

I think they have a right to return to their ancestral homeland.

At the expense of displacing Palestinians? They can return to their homeland by all means, but not when it involves them knocking down houses, bulldozing farms and locking the people who live there in a virtual prison.

philologos

dlofnep wrote: »

At the expense of displacing Palestinians? They can return to their homeland by all means, but not when it involves them knocking down houses, bulldozing farms and locking the people who live there in a virtual prison.

Thank you for ignoring my post:

As an Irish citizen, I can empathise with both. Israel has a right to exist, however abusing the rights of Palestinians is outright wrong.

dlofnep

Jakkass wrote: »

Thank you for ignoring my post:

I didn't ignore your post. I'm expanding further on your statement.

philologos

dlofnep wrote: »

I didn't ignore your post. I'm expanding further on your statement.

I made it crystal that I don't support human rights abuses, but I support Israel's right to exist. Go figure.

Martyr

Funny how its always the oppressed people defending themselves that are the "terrorists"

Nice way to troll, mrtaylor1981

I'm sure you'll get everyone fired up now..:rolleyes:

dlofnep

Unfortunately, I don't think he was trolling Martyr. He genuinely believes in his support of Israel.

philologos

Whats so wrong about advocating Israel's existence? That's what I want to know. I advocate Palestinian rights within an Israeli state also. I don't know why both can't go hand in hand. The one state solution to me is the only tangible option.

Allah Hu Akbar

Jakkass wrote: »

Whats so wrong about advocating Israel's existence? That's what I want to know. I advocate Palestinian rights within an Israeli state also. I don't know why both can't go hand in hand. The one state solution to me is the only tangible option.

So you see a one state, Israel?


What about just jews having rights in a Palestinian state?

wylo

Jakkass wrote: »

As an Irish citizen, I can empathise with both. Israel has a right to exist, however abusing the rights of Palestinians is outright wrong. As for them being American or Russian, DNA shows that they have Semitic genes for the most part and that they have lineage from the former inhabitants of the land.

If your going to try and justify Israel , bringing up DNA is not the way to go about it.
Sure why dont we all go back to africa, thats our ancestral homeland.

dlofnep

Jakkass wrote: »

Whats so wrong about advocating Israel's existence? That's what I want to know. I advocate Palestinian rights within an Israeli state also. I don't know why both can't go hand in hand. The one state solution to me is the only tangible option.

There is nothing wrong with advocating Israel's existence. There is a problem with Israel existing at the expense of the Palestinian people.

"I advocate Palestinian rights within an Israeli state also"

And what's wrong with Jewish rights within a Palestinian state? Why do the Palestinians have to live within an Israeli state? Why do the Palestinians have to lose their homes so that Israel can extend it's state?

NickCarraway

mrtaylor1981 wrote: »

As a Northern Ireland citizen I can empathise with the Isreali's and their fight against terrorism. The great pity was that the British government did not the hard line with the terrorists like the Israeli's.

Wow, just wow.

I have considered before the similarities between NI Unionists and Israelis. The arrogance, the belief in their own superiority, relegating the original inhabitants of their land to second class citizens, thinking they are entitled to displace an entire community etc.

So mrtaylor, you wish the British government had done their best to obliterate the entire nationalist community?

Its also funny how another poster has said he supports the right of Israel to exist because thousands of years ago they lived there; the same argument is totally dismissed by unionists when they speak of the Irish claiming Northern Ireland.

So a people displaced thousands of years ago have the right to return to 'their' land and go about reclaiming 'their' country (forgetting that other people actually live there now)? But NI has been in British hands for a few hundred years and therefore Ireland has no claim to it?

I suppose if you're British you have to right to do what you like and impose your will on anyone you please.
What kind of mentality does it take to believe you have the right to hand someone's country (Palestine) to another people?

NickCarraway

You know whats funny, I have never been a political person. Until fairly recently my views on NI went along the lines of 'why can't we all just get along?' and 'well it doesn't affect me directly so I don't care'.

In the last year or so, I've thought about this and other issues. I have traveled quite a bit and met quite a few Israelis and while i hate to generalise - their arrogance is staggering! Granted they were by and large twentysomethings just out of the army. But to me they just seemed totally brainwashed and spoke openly about wanting to see 'the enemy' dead. I suppose when you live in a state under constant threat from within and without you develop a thick skin. but part of me couldn't help but think that under that fierce Zionist belief, that seemed so over the top, was a doubt - a doubt that what they believed in so fiercely might be completely wrong. Not just their attitude to the Palestinians, but their belief that the State of Israel should exist at all.

I see the same attitude in unionists, albeit not to such an extreme. No tolerance for any suggestion that NI might actually rightly belong to Ireland, a thinly veiled contempt for Irish culture (acceptable only as a minority culture - 40% is a pretty big minority). If we were to play word association, what word comes to mind when you hear the word 'unionist'?
For me its 'staunch' - unyielding, uncompromising.

But maybe I'm wrong; maybe I'm the one who has been brainwashed by republicanism. Perhaps arriving in a country in droves with the aim of displacing the original occupants and creating your own country is ok; perhaps using your military might to crush those who dare assert their independence is acceptable; after all they are the terrorists - but if the army of a 'legitimate' state kills people for the sake of maintaining their soverignty, well, that's ok.

philologos

Allah Hu Akbar wrote: »

So you see a one state, Israel?

What about just jews having rights in a Palestinian state?

We know your a Hun
We know your a Hun
Mr.Taylor, we know your a Hun

The political structures in Israel, if Palestinians were allowed to run for Knesset seats in Israel, and if the Palestinians were allowed to live anywhere within the State of Israel like their Israeli Arab counterparts the problem would be for the most part alleviated.

Dudess

dlofnep wrote: »

Unfortunately, I don't think he was trolling Martyr. He genuinely believes in his support of Israel.

I'd agree he's not trolling in the sense of posting something he actually disagrees with, however I do think he's trolling in the sense of trying to piss people off.

I'm sure right-wing Protestants in the North have loads of time for Jews... and always did, even before it became "the thing" for them to back Israel.

dlofnep

There's a picture of these right-wing loyalists that was taken recently, where they were performing the Hitler salute whilst holding an Israeli flag. The mind boggles.. I'll see if I can find it.

FTA69

Jakkass wrote: »

s an Irish citizen, I can empathise with both. Israel has a right to exist, however abusing the rights of Palestinians is outright wrong. As for them being American or Russian, DNA shows that they have Semitic genes for the most part and that they have lineage from the former inhabitants of the land. I think they have a right to return to their ancestral homeland.

Lineage from thousands of years back, me or you could convert to Judaism tomorrow and be granted Israeli citizenship. I hear a lot about "ancestral homeland" (millenia ago) but little about the Palestinians living in squalid refugee camps after they were run off their land but 50 years ago.

philologos

FTA69 wrote: »

Lineage from thousands of years back, me or you could convert to Judaism tomorrow and be granted Israeli citizenship. I hear a lot about "ancestral homeland" (millenia ago) but little about the Palestinians living in squalid refugee camps after they were run off their land but 50 years ago.

I'm quite aware of that. Even still most genetic studies suggest Gentile interbreeding with Jews is as low as 2%. I posted these on another thread. Even still this is irrelevant.

NickCarraway wrote:

I see the same attitude in unionists, albeit not to such an extreme. No tolerance for any suggestion that NI might actually rightly belong to Ireland, a thinly veiled contempt for Irish culture (acceptable only as a minority culture - 40% is a pretty big minority). If we were to play word association, what word comes to mind when you hear the word 'unionist'?
For me its 'staunch' - unyielding, uncompromising.

I think "staunch - unyielding, uncompromising" could also apply to Republicans.

I think Unionists only want to have the right to their national identity and to remain with Britain, and if most people in NI want that, fair play to them, thats their perogative and their right.

Dudess wrote:

I'm sure right-wing Protestants in the North have loads of time for Jews... and always did, even before it became "the thing" for them to back Israel.

Well there was a big thing with British Israelism. Infact the Ulster Solemn League and Covenant in 1912 is motivated much by it. It mimics God's promise to Abraham in the Torah (Genesis 17). British Israelism is based on the belief that they are descended from the royal tribe of Judah (the line of King David) in the Bible. Most modern day Jews are believed to have come from the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. So, yes there probably was a bit of an attachment to Israel with certain groups of Protestantism.

Then again, I don't see what this has to do with legitimate support of Israel's continued existence.

Nodin

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a website for this new venture, so theres no meat to rip into, so to speak....

Jakkass wrote: »

The political structures in Israel, if Palestinians were allowed to run for Knesset seats in Israel, and if the Palestinians were allowed to live anywhere within the State of Israel like their Israeli Arab counterparts the problem would be for the most part alleviated.

Well no, there'd be a lot more to be addressed. It would be good to remember that Arab land ownership isn't deemed sacrosanct in the OT before talking about them house shopping in Tel Aviv.

Personally, I don't think either community could be trusted in power over the other. In addition, the major Israeli parties have all committed themselves to the 'Jewish majority'. Thats something which excludes incorporating large numbers of Arabs as citizens (even if they were willing to become such, which is unlikely).

Dudess

dlofnep wrote: »

There's a picture of these right-wing loyalists that was taken recently, where they were performing the Hitler salute whilst holding an Israeli flag. The mind boggles.

Not one bit surprising. Stupidity and inconsistency are things which elements of the far right do very well indeed.

Nick_oliveri

As much as ive thanked the above posts pointing out certain things, its a troll OP. Well done.

meathstevie

Dudess wrote: »

Not one bit surprising. Stupidity and inconsistency are things which elements of the far right do very well indeed.

Same with the far left for that matter.

What's really hard to understand is that the Arabs surrounding Israel have never been able push the Israeli military into the sea. They've superior numbers, fairly decent equipment and generally willing troops when it comes to fighting Israel...I know this isn't as relevant nowadays but all through the fifties till the seventies the only thing they lacked in my opinion is sound military leadership and strategy and that's what Israel has in abundance. I know American military aid plays a large role but until the late eighties all the Arab states in the area were more than welcome to Soviet supplies as well.

Driseog

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm quite aware of that. Even still most genetic studies suggest Gentile interbreeding with Jews is as low as 2%. I posted these on another thread. Even still this is irrelevant.



I think "staunch - unyielding, uncompromising" could also apply to Republicans.

I think Unionists only want to have the right to their national identity and to remain with Britain, and if most people in NI want that, fair play to them, thats their perogative and their right.



Well there was a big thing with British Israelism. Infact the Ulster Solemn League and Covenant in 1912 is motivated much by it. It mimics God's promise to Abraham in the Torah (Genesis 17). British Israelism is based on the belief that they are descended from the royal tribe of Judah (the line of King David) in the Bible. Most modern day Jews are believed to have come from the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. So, yes there probably was a bit of an attachment to Israel with certain groups of Protestantism.

Then again, I don't see what this has to do with legitimate support of Israel's continued existence.

I don't mean to get off topic but the NI state is a falsehood, what about asking the whole island do they want a section of it to remain British. Of course the present arrangement allows for it to remain part of the UK, they pick and chose the counties that would give them a significant majority over nationalists.

I completely agree with the statement that the Zionists and Unionists seem to have an unashamed arrogance when it comes to legitimising their psuedo-states. And that somehow God above granted them these lands. If you and your neighbours moved into a neighbourhood in another county after the residents were forcebly moved from their homes for you to live in, what would your reaction be? Are you really surprised that terrorism exists?

RealityCheck

What a load of b****x.

jank

The great pity was that the British government did not the hard line with the terrorists like the Israeli's

Well the Northern Ireland government did a great job of administrating N.I before direct rule was re-imposed from London, didnt it?:pac:

Scofflaw

If this thread generates more heat than light, it will be shut down, and red cards handed out. However strongly you feel about your support for Israel/Palestine, it is neither a reason nor an excuse for being rude to other posters.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Agent Smith

How Dare People Express their support for isreal?

HOW DARE THEY!


Where do i sit on the political Spectrum then. I believe Both Palistine and Isreal have rights to exsist. I Dont Agree with Isreal Using tactics as Quoted above. I Dont believe that Isreal should have to put up with rocket attacks against border towns.

oscarBravo

Following on from Scofflaw's post, I've handed out some red cards for accusations of trolling, which is explicitly prohibited by the charter.

Dudess

Agent Smith wrote: »

How Dare People Express their support for isreal?

HOW DARE THEY!

A case of missing the point/being disingenuous. Anyone has a right to pledge their support for the state of Israel, to speak out against Hamas attacks... What people find objectionable here though, is the agenda of this support group to which the OP is referring. It's backing "Israel and its fight against terrorism" - well yes, if you consider a support for keeping the Palestinians downtrodden and Israel exerting its superiority (has quite the familiar ring to it in this corner of the globe) the same as the above.
Also, the way the OP worded his/her opening post was very inflammatory - lamenting the fact the British government didn't use the same tactics as those of the Israeli government on terrorists (I wonder when the OP says "terrorists" does (s)he just mean "the IRA"? I'd imagine so).
This organisation really only looks like a vehicle for bigoted, sectarian unionists to vicariously continue looking down on nationalists and to support the hegemonic state of play in Israel/Palestine - something very close to their hearts...

Oh and I'd very much have my doubts that the more redneck elements of the loyalist community, with their connections to skinhead movements in Britain, have any time for Jews - but it's handy for them at the moment.

gandalf

My god I despair at the pathetic small mindedness of this. They will swoop to pretend to care about other issues that have nothing to do with Northern Ireland to try and get under each others skins.

Its playground pettiness of the worse kind. In fact I would guess children would have more maturity. (Just waiting for the "cause they started it excuse").

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Yusuf Mirza

Nodin

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

He's not an Arab.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

...none of which justifys Israels occupation and colonisation of the areas outside its borders, an activity which predates Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad. They are the product of Israels deeds, not the cause. Their religous nature is the failure of the secular world to support the Palestinian struggle and a reflection of the desperation of the people.

oscarBravo

Yusuf Mirza wrote: »

Exactly what is that supposed to contribute to the discussion?

junder

Watched an interesting programme a few months ago about how a hatred for isreal is actully manifesting itself in anti-semantism what was more interesting is that this anti-semantism was actully eminating from the left rather then the more usual right wing.
FYI most of the jewish community in Northern Ireland actully consider themselves unionist and would be unionist voters.

Nodin

oscarBravo wrote: »

Exactly what is that supposed to contribute to the discussion?

It would seem to be a reference to the little known incident where Mary tried to nab Cuchulainn off the rock, only to be bayoneted by a nearby IDF member.

wes

I can't say I am too bothered about this really, the whole thing seems like a childish stab at the Nationalists up North by the people who set this thing up.

wes

junder wrote: »

Watched an interesting programme a few months ago about how a hatred for isreal is actully manifesting itself in anti-semantism what was more interesting is that this anti-semantism was actully eminating from the left rather then the more usual right wing.
FYI most of the jewish community in Northern Ireland actully consider themselves unionist and would be unionist voters.

I have always wondered why those who support Israels policies against the Palestinians, are not similarly accused of Anti-Semitism, after all the Palestinians are Semites as well.

Now, of course I think its silly to call either sides supporters Anti-Semites, what with both sides of the conflict being Semitic peoples and all.

brianthebard

junder wrote: »

Watched an interesting programme a few months ago about how a hatred for isreal is actully manifesting itself in anti-semantism what was more interesting is that this anti-semantism was actully eminating from the left rather then the more usual right wing.
FYI most of the jewish community in Northern Ireland actully consider themselves unionist and would be unionist voters.

The left traditionally doesn't agree with imperialism, colonisation and nationalism.

junder

brianthebard wrote: »

The left traditionally doesn't agree with imperialism, colonisation and nationalism.

but anti-semantism is ok?

dlofnep

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Actually, he called for Zionism to be removed from the page of time. And I agree with him, Zionism is a disgusting mentality which supports the creation of a state based by religion at the expense of those already living there. Zionism attacks anyone who criticises the Israeli state and labels them as jew-haters.

Given that Northern Ireland has been under the continuous rule of the British crown since the twelfth century—about two hundred years before Geoffrey Chaucer wrote the Canterbury Tales, and four hundred years before the birth of Shakespeare—it's hardly surprising that the province has been somewhat resistant to adopting a "culture" that was largely created ex nihilo in the late nineteenth century. That unionists are unyielding in their defence of centuries-old traditions should hardly raise eyebrows, either.

And yet, it was resisted for centuries. Go figure..

dlofnep

junder wrote: »

but anti-semantism is ok?

Care to give examples of this said anti-semitism?

brianthebard

junder wrote: »

but anti-semantism is ok?

Read wes' post.

Dudess

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

"The province"? I assume you mean "unionists"? What about the sizeable minority of nationalists within said province, who, if we're going to get all historical about things, were eh... there before the unionists?
And the province is Ulster, which comprises three other counties that are part of the Republic - I always wonder why unionist hardliners have such a love for the word "Ulster".

junder wrote: »

Watched an interesting programme a few months ago about how a hatred for isreal is actully manifesting itself in anti-semantism what was more interesting is that this anti-semantism was actully eminating from the left rather then the more usual right wing.
FYI most of the jewish community in Northern Ireland actully consider themselves unionist and would be unionist voters.

The "anti-semitism" accusation is seriously bottom-of-the-barrel scraping. Yeah, condemnation of Israel's draconian policies is also a condemnation of Judeaism. Give me a break.
It's the NF off-shoots that are the anti-semitic ones.

junder

See for example:

http://www.workersliberty.org/node/5041: What is left anti-semitism?