New Taxes = Forced Retirement?

Bang Bang

With the impending threat from the government, who it now appears are going to tax the public servants pension lump sum (at well over 40%), I have to express my annoyance yet again at the greed of the government who see the Public Service employees as an easy target to drain yet more money from, in order to "fix" the mess the government have made of our country's finances.

Over the past two weeks I have seen so many staff members applying for early retirement so they will have some sort of financial stability when they are no longer employed.
These members have a few years left in them but with the government's threat hanging over them, it appears they now have no choice but to go early. So the government are "forcing" many years of experience out of the work force. This experience alone could not be bought at any price.
Only during the week one lad who took the early retirement because of this threat, left his station with tears of sadness rolling down his face. You could clearly see how much it hurt him leaving his job and career when he clearly wasn't ready to go.

So do the government really think this threat of taxing the pension lump sum is gonna help fix their mess??
Not a chance because they are now in the process of creating massive staff shortness across the public service sector.
Now in areas of the Public Service ie; the Emergency Services, how much will training cost to replace all those staff members who are being forced into early retirement?? Probably a lot more than what they are going to gain from taxing lump sums and applying their "levies".
The government jumping in blind again and not doing their homework.

(I can now almost hear the "trolls" gathering, ready to tell us how lucky we are to have jobs and pensions. But please don't bother because we've heard enough of your stupid comments)

deadwood

I know a few members that have pulled the pin already. Pre-retirement courses are already oversubscribed, with plenty on "standby" hoping to get in. If someone had spent 30 years with a private company they'd be getting a whole lot more than a stencilled letter from the commissioner.

Having spent 30 years with AGS and seeing their salaries being chipped away the gratuity was one of the few things keeping a lot of people in the job. Now they'll retire to save this and the rest of us will take up the slack because of the recruitment slow-down. The ones staying on are working every night hour they can get to prop up their pension which will serve their health well in the few years they can expect to enjoy in retirement.

All those years of knowledge and experience snuffed out in one short sighted penny pinching exercise.

I suppose we should take a leaf out of Michael Fingletons book who gave back a measly €1m bonus .....a BONUS!? The poor guy will have to scrape by on his slice of a €28m pension fund. Oh wait - there's only one slice!

daithip

With 800 having already applied to retire and an expected further 700 in the coming months (Figures given to me by Div GRA rep), intakes in Templemore down to 90 students which barely meets retirement numbers in non recessional times what kind of a staff shortage are we going to be looking at in the coming years. These numbers are only quoted on the basis of the pension levy and not taxation of the gratuity!! Killarney is already inundated with calls from members who can retire looking to see what it's worth to them to keep going. With figures returned of aprox 30% of their current wages, the looming tax on gratuity will definitely be a helpful shove out the door. I shudder to think what the future holds.:mad:

goldie fish

Yesterday i heard it is to be taxed at 17%. Dunno where that comes from tho. 40% seems more likely.

kerry4sam

daithip wrote: »

With 800 having already applied to retire and an expected further 700 in the coming months (Figures given to me by Div GRA rep), intakes in Templemore down to 90 students which barely meets retirement numbers in non recessional times what kind of a staff shortage are we going to be looking at in the coming years. These numbers are only quoted on the basis of the pension levy and not taxation of the gratuity!! Killarney is already inundated with calls from members who can retire looking to see what it's worth to them to keep going. With figures returned of aprox 30% of their current wages, the looming tax on gratuity will definitely be a helpful shove out the door. I shudder to think what the future holds.:mad:

Do you think that the staff shortages still be there if the numbers of Reserve Gardaì increase due to the moratorium on full-time membership?

FGR

Reserve Gardaí won't be able to take up the slack in any shape or form unless they're given powers to utilise.

Otherwise the problem still stands..an ever increasing workload being handled by decreasing manpower.

daithip

Reserve Gardai are only expected to work 6 hours per week, how will increasing their numbers assist staff shortages? Anyway most of these people who give up their spare time are being utilised by Garda management to increase visibility on weekend nights and not the day to day policing. But you have to remember that they also must be accompanied by a member if out and about and have very little power.

Back on the point, the only light I can see at the end of the tunnel in relation to the gratuity tax is the fact that most TD's pension lump sum would also be liable. What are the chances of it passing through the Dail when this comes to light.:rolleyes:

ART6

I am in the private sector, not in the public or ES, but if the OP's post is true then I would think it's outrageous. This pathetic imitation of a real government says it can't do anything about the massive and obscene pension funds erected for the financial industry, so it will kick the s**T out of those who could never dream of those elevated salaries and conditions of employment. Did any of the bankers ever risk their lives to save someone from a burning building, or to take out a armed criminal before he injured someone, or saved someone's live in an RTA by sheer medical skill and dedication? No, they just crippled the economy.

Beyond the ES I have no particular fondness for the Civil Service, but even there to hit someone's pension at the thirteenth hour when he has planned his future after work on it is, frankly, bloody criminal. OK, the rest of us no longer have guaranteed pensions because the private sector pensions industry has effectively collapsed as a result of government and financial industry gross incompetence, but using that as an excuse to make sure everyone outside the private sector is nailed to the same cross as if that will make me feel better is typical of the minimal mental capacity of our legislators.:mad:

There is an alternative way to start making cuts in public expenditure, and that is to start by dismissing all of the vast number of quangoes and agencies with all of their old boys network incumbents, stop hiring consultants at a cost of millions and make ministers start doing the job they are paid for for once, and at the same time reduce their salaries and perks to bench mark (the favourite phrase) those in the public service and parliaments of other similar sized EU countries.

Could it happen? Not a hope while any of the current crop of politicians in all of the parties are around. The snouts are too deep in the trough with those of the bankers so the rest of us must take the pain.

Hooch

ART6 wrote: »

I am in the private sector, not in the public or ES, but if the OP's post is true then I would think it's outrageous. This pathetic imitation of a real government says it can't do anything about the massive and obscene pension funds erected for the financial industry, so it will kick the s**T out of those who could never dream of those elevated salaries and conditions of employment. Did any of the bankers ever risk their lives to save someone from a burning building, or to take out a armed criminal before he injured someone, or saved someone's live in an RTA by sheer medical skill and dedication? No, they just crippled the economy.

Beyond the ES I have no particular fondness for the Civil Service, but even there to hit someone's pension at the thirteenth hour when he has planned his future after work on it is, frankly, bloody criminal. OK, the rest of us no longer have guaranteed pensions because the private sector pensions industry has effectively collapsed as a result of government and financial industry gross incompetence, but using that as an excuse to make sure everyone outside the private sector is nailed to the same cross as if that will make me feel better is typical of the minimal mental capacity of our legislators.:mad:

There is an alternative way to start making cuts in public expenditure, and that is to start by dismissing all of the vast number of quangoes and agencies with all of their old boys network incumbents, stop hiring consultants at a cost of millions and make ministers start doing the job they are paid for for once, and at the same time reduce their salaries and perks to bench mark (the favourite phrase) those in the public service and parliaments of other similar sized EU countries.

Could it happen? Not a hope while any of the current crop of politicians in all of the parties are around. The snouts are too deep in the trough with those of the bankers so the rest of us must take the pain.

Im glad to see that some private sector workers still back us in the ES.

Be sure that your words of support mean a lot in a time when we are being rode raped robbed screwed with our pants on (sorry mods about my choice of words)

As deadwood said the amount of local knowledge and skill that will be lost is unthinkable. Any amount of recruitment in years to come will never make up for this loss of local knowledge.

Over 600 gardai bail out over pension levy

By Cormac Looney


Thursday March 19 2009

MORE than 600 gardai, many of them vastly experienced officers, have applied for early retirement as the major brain drain in the force worsens.

The Garda's HR section in Killarney, Co Kerry, has received the applications since the introduction of a pension levy last month. Rumours of a possible new tax on retirement gratuity has led to a fresh batch of applications in the past three weeks.

A source told the Herald that upwards of 600 officers, many of them senior-ranking, are now expected to quit the force. The move will see the force lose 5pc of its strength in the space of a few months.

There are now serious concerns in Government circles that the glut of retirements could hit policing, particularly serious underworld and subversive crime.


Subversive

As the Herald revealed last week, the chief detectives in Dublin's three busiest districts are all expected to retire. Det Supt PJ Browne will leave Pearse Street, Det Supt Hubert Collins is expected to depart Blanchardstown and Det Supt Denis Donegan is retiring from his post at Crumlin.

The three officers, who have over 30 years' experience apiece battling serious crime, have led the fight against major gangland criminals in Crumlin, the south city and west Dublin in recent years.

The head of the force's anti-terror Special Branch, Chief Supt Timmy Maher, will go, as will Dun Laoghaire-based Chief Supt Dave Roche.

A source said: "Once the pension levy was introduced it was clear that older guys would leave, but the numbers have surprised everyone. A huge amount of experience is being lost and people are wondering if it can be replaced overnight.

"One thing's for sure, it's good news for the criminals around town. In recent years the way to promotion in the police is to get a laptop and a management degree, instead of putting gangsters behind bars."

A decision has not been made by the Government on whether the gratuity payment to officers will be taxed. If it is, some gardai could lose around €30,000.

Most of the officers affected by the so-called brain drain were set to retire in the coming 18 months, but have now opted to go early.

Source

Just an example of some of the quality that is being lost.

goldie fish

So much for 2000 extra Gardai. I predict a return to 2000 level strength before this year ends.

ART6

goldie fish wrote: »

So much for 2000 extra Gardai. I predict a return to 2000 level strength before this year ends.

At a time when, to the ordinary citizen at least, crime appears to be spiraling out of control, now is as good a time as any to introduce a programme that might well reduce the number of Gardai below critical levels. I never would have thought of that and can only bow to the brilliance of our political leaders:rolleyes:

goldie fish

ART6 wrote: »

At a time when, to the ordinary citizen at least, crime appears to be spiraling out of control, now is as good a time as any to introduce a programme that might well reduce the number of Gardai below critical levels. I never would have thought of that and can only bow to the brilliance of our political leaders:rolleyes:

While we are at it, probably best to close more prisons....

ART6

goldie fish wrote: »

While we are at it, probably best to close more prisons....

Careful. In the present mood of government you could find yourself in the Dáil in a ministerial post with the task of closing them all.;)

wreckless

wasnt it the irish times that featured that report on the 17.5% tax on gratuity payments and lump sums for retirement?

the retained fire service is geting screwed royaly also atm lads. reading through this thread, we are all in the same boat. Even worse for us is that uptil the middle of last year, no pension was ever even been offered to the retained service! now, it is and we are being screwed too. i think their is a lot of experienced FF`s applying for early leave too in light of whats happened lately.

we are making represtations to all out TDs atm to see what can be done about this

Paulzx

Dublin Fire Brigade has lost 35 firefighters to retirement since the start of the year. By the end of the year that figure will be at the 70 to 80 mark. That is a conservative figure.

These numbers might not sound excessive to the man on the street but this is 10% of our strenght. There is now an embargo on public service recruitment so replacements are unlikely. Our mimimum manning level will soon only be achievable using overtime. This will not be acceptable long term due to cost. The people of our capital city don't seem to realise that their fire service is in huge danger of being downgraded. This would be fine if we were starting at a postion of providing more cover than is required. This is not the case.

All the people screaming for public service blood will get some kick up the hole when we can't get to their house fire in time to save life and property as a direct result of downmanning. Remember, this is what you called for when you spat on the value of my job. I truly hope it doesn't visit your door

The Minister for Finance will in future decide whether or not gardaí, soldiers, sailors or air corps personnel are recruited or promoted.

The Department of Finance has stopped recruitment and promotions within the public service, but the ban means that neither Commissioner Fachtna Murphy nor Lieutenant General Dermot Earley can promote or recruit without the approval of Brian Lenihan.

A spokesman for the Minister for Finance said no more gardaí will be recruited until further notice.

Almost 250 gardaí, sergeants, inspectors and superintendents, who are waiting to be promoted, will not be moved into vacant posts unless Minister Lenihan allows it.

PDFORRA says there are at least 100 privates preparing for promotion to corporal and another 100 soldiers competing for higher rank appointments.

The Government has put a stop to all recruitment and promotions within the civil service, local authorities and non commercial State bodies - it says savings must be made in the public service pay and pensions bill of €20bn a year.

Minister Lenihan will have the authority to allow for the filling of some vacancies but only in very exceptional circumstances.

The Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors says it is gravely concerned at this interference in the operational effectiveness of the gardaí at a time of rising gang-related crime, and increased activity among dissident republicans.

The Garda Representative Association says gardaí will be expected to do the work of higher officers and take responsibility above their rank which may create legal difficulties.

PDFORRA says the ban on recruitment and promotion will damage morale and efficiency within the Defence Forces.

Source


It looks as though we might struggle to even keep the same level of members as in 2000.

As for services being affected, my unit will only have one car out on one of our shifts next week. No beats either. Looks like it's the criminal type who will be the only happy ones with the current situation.

But on the bright side, at least I will be able to get to the airport hassle free...once I make my way into the City Centre first that is. Why can't they just extend the DART? Is that just too simple?? Cutbacks will not derail €4bn Metro North project. Thats a lot of Gardai, nurses, firefighters, hospital beds, etc.

ART6

Paulzx wrote: »

Dublin Fire Brigade has lost 35 firefighters to retirement since the start of the year. By the end of the year that figure will be at the 70 to 80 mark. That is a conservative figure.

These numbers might not sound excessive to the man on the street but this is 10% of our strenght. There is now an embargo on public service recruitment so replacements are unlikely. Our mimimum manning level will soon only be achievable using overtime. This will not be acceptable long term due to cost. The people of our capital city don't seem to realise that their fire service is in huge danger of being downgraded. This would be fine if we were starting at a postion of providing more cover than is required. This is not the case.

All the people screaming for public service blood will get some kick up the hole when we can't get to their house fire in time to save life and property as a direct result of downmanning. Remember, this is what you called for when you spat on the value of my job. I truly hope it doesn't visit your door

Your bitterness is understandable, but perhaps it's worth wondering what Joe Public thinks of when he gets wound up by the media about the public services. Might it be the excessive number of managers and administrators in the health service who can't manage or administrate anything without making a b***s of it even after being advised by a multitude of consultants, or the Revenue and the NRA and so many other government departments who are wasting vast sums of cash through sheer incompetence?

I don't pretend to speak for the people, but I suspect that the vast majority do not include the Gardai, ambulance, nurses or fire services in their hostility. We all know full well that a Guard being around when someone wants to rob us, or an ambulance crew to get us treated fast after an accident, or a nurse to keep us alive or a fireman to get us out of a burning building at risk of his own life, is someone who deserves our support. I also believe that if you read the newspaper letter columns and boards like this one, you will find that there is a clear distinction in the public's mind between public services and emergency services. It's the cynical politicians who are trying to tie the two together, not Joe Public.

badlyparkedmerc

Just to be clear and hopefully not to annoy anyone here, the tax free lump sum of 1.5 times final salary is available to everyone public or private sector. Assuming their pension pot is big enough to fund it.

So a tax on this affects both sectors wouldn't it?

westcoastboy

Are we not to blame ourselves..we elected these me feiners, who believe that they only have to work three years and get a ministers pension, that they have to fly first class everywhere at the taxpayers expense..
that for years they appointed their friends to the boards of semi-state companies, (ESB,RTE, CIE, Aer Lingus).they are only laughing up their sleeves at us..
How many of them volunteered to reduce their pay, by 10% ..feck all..certainly none of the Labour Party the Workers Party!

Some of us are paying 40% tax, 7.75% PRSI, 6% pension, 1% income levy and now a 7.5% pension levy.. Hope my pension after 40 years of service is worth all these deductions.. i feel i am sharing the pain, are they..

deadwood

The GRA have informed us that the gratuity will not be "taxed, adjusted or reduced" and advised that members who have given notice of retirement may withdraw their notice if they wish.

Good news if they stick to it.

jake59

deadwood wrote: »

The GRA have informed us that the gratuity will not be "taxed, adjusted or reduced" and advised that members who have given notice of retirement may withdraw their notice if they wish.

Good news if they stick to it.

hopefully there is some truth in this.. I don't think the job could cope with the loss of so many senior men/women and their experience.

paul larry

december budget = tax on retirement gratuity which in turn = big big retirments in months prior to this. imagin ur station without some of the 30years plus men and women!!!!!:eek:

silverharp

ART6 wrote: »

I don't pretend to speak for the people, but I suspect that the vast majority do not include the Gardai, ambulance, nurses or fire services in their hostility. We all know full well that a Guard being around when someone wants to rob us, or an ambulance crew to get us treated fast after an accident, or a nurse to keep us alive or a fireman to get us out of a burning building at risk of his own life, is someone who deserves our support. I also believe that if you read the newspaper letter columns and boards like this one, you will find that there is a clear distinction in the public's mind between public services and emergency services. It's the cynical politicians who are trying to tie the two together, not Joe Public.

I'd fully agree , I'm a paid up public sector basher:D , on the simple logic that nothing is worth a repeat of the 70's and 80's where the gov. didnt live within its means , that being said its the quangos, FAS , IDA etc. that are at the top of my list. A 100 nurses do vastly more important work then say the Seanad, but which will get cut first?

delta5

just from listening around gardas are retiring much faster then coming in! why would they pay taxes when they can hav a pension?? this will be a major loss!!

TheNog

It will be a huge loss to AGS, more than the public and the Government realise. With the amount of highly experienced Gardai, Fire and EMTs retiring it will take years to recover and regain that experience again.

ART6

delta5 wrote: »

i honestly dont think the gov have a clue at what they have done! fair enough halting recruitment mite b a bit of a gad in experience but they will pick it up! losing people who have worked in areas wit 30yrs or more experience is madness! its like me being taoiseach!!! wudn have a clue what i was doin!

And neither has........

*No. Withdraw that. I resist the temptation*