Studio Time Payment Issues???

pgasm

Hey guys,

i have a problem! I run a studio and i had a band in over two months ago for three days. They have not paid me for the session yet. I usually dont give tracks away until i recieve payment, but due to the fact that one of the members is a friend of an engineer that works in my studio i trusted that they would get the money the next day.

Unfortunately, that has not been the case, and two months later i still have not recieved a penny and they have their songs on bebo and myspace etc...

does anyone have any advice on what to do? Or has this happened to anyone else here?

I am totally prepared to take the loss at this stage, but it just annoys me that this has happened!

cheers all!

violent*sky

you said you dont normally do this so i wont give you the whole, ''no mixes leave the studio until money enters my wallet'' speech.

do you pay your engineer friend or does he just use the studio for his sessions and takes the money from his clients?

is it an option to not pay him or lock away the microphones (sell one of his!?) so that he can get the money off his 'friends' before he can do his session?

from now on maybe work on a half at the start and half when mixes are handed over basis.

pgasm

Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately that's not really an option as I have already paid the engineer and all studio equipment is mine. I booked the session and the band contacted me directly. It just turns out that the engineer knows one of the band members. Which is why I trusted them.

violent*sky

i wouldnt be paying the engineer if he uses the studio again, he can get his fee from his friend in the other band.

if its not a huge amount i guess use it as a learning experience. To be honest, getting burned and becoming stricter in relation to payments isnt a bad thing.

Seziertisch

violent*sky wrote: »

i wouldnt be paying the engineer if he uses the studio again, he can get his fee from his friend in the other band.

if its not a huge amount i guess use it as a learning experience. To be honest, getting burned and becoming stricter in relation to payments isnt a bad thing.

Would have to agree with that one. I presume you have contacted the engineer and/or the band and made them aware of the situation?

Otherwise, I'd say chalk it down to experience.

pgasm

Thank you all for your input I will take into consideration all the advice you have given me. However I still think i'm going to have to give these guys a beating!!!!:cool:

teamdresch

Small claims court I suppose.

What steps have you taken so far?
I take it you've called, emailed etc.?

Maccattack

pgasm wrote: »

Hey guys,

i have a problem! I run a studio and i had a band in over two months ago for three days. They have not paid me for the session yet. I usually dont give tracks away until i recieve payment, but due to the fact that one of the members is a friend of an engineer that works in my studio i trusted that they would get the money the next day.

Unfortunately, that has not been the case, and two months later i still have not recieved a penny and they have their songs on bebo and myspace etc...

does anyone have any advice on what to do? Or has this happened to anyone else here?

I am totally prepared to take the loss at this stage, but it just annoys me that this has happened!

cheers all!

wear the cost.

give yourself a wedgie.

get over it.

PaulBrewer

Not the first time I've heard of this happening - a lesson learned.

No track leaves the gaff ever, before payment. If it's a friend just say it as a matter of fact when you make the deal.

You'll sometimes get the 'it's booked into mastering tomorrow' plea .... all the more reason to get paid today.

Seziertisch

One of the big problems with musicians is that a lot of them don't really appreciate the work of the engineer or producer, or even appreciate that good gear and a good recording environment are worth something. Many have the attitude that you should be grateful that they chose to work with you. It is probably a hell of a lot easier to default on paying someone if you consider that their time, effort and recording set up are completely incidental to how "great" your recording sounds.

Savman

Small Claims Court dont deal with business to business, which is what this is viewed as. If it's not a huge chunk of money, write it off as a bad debt but not without a fight.

Seziertisch

I reckon that if they are using the recordings on their myspace and bebo you should have a case. I don't know what you charge but getting paid for the three days might be worth the cost of a solicitors letter.

old gregg

is there any benefit to contacting the myspace/bebo folks and registering a complaint that the band are using material that they don't own copyright on?

if the band are gigging I'd be inclined to arrive along at one of their gigs and start loudly hassling them for the money just before they come on stage.

then again, I'm a muso rather than an engineer so am not experienced in these things. I did have reason to get stroppy with a guy who tried to rip me off in a non-music related contract a few years ago and found that the last thing he wanted was for the general public to know that he was a thief just at the moment when he least needed it.

ask yourself, what would Tony Soprano do?

Savman

old gregg wrote: »

is there any benefit to contacting the myspace/bebo folks and registering a complaint that the band are using material that they don't own copyright on?

No benefit whatsoever.

old gregg

Savman wrote: »

No benefit whatsoever.

even if as is the case with myspace they have a system in place to deal with copyright issues?

Savman

old gregg wrote: »

even if as is the case with myspace they have a system in place to deal with copyright issues?

It's not a copyright issue, it's a business etiquette issue. Doesnt matter whether you're a band, engineer or a greengrocer, if you give your product or service away free you can't act surprised when people are slow to pay up. It's a fundamental principle in any commercial enterprise, the OP has learned a costly mistake.

Hounding myspace or bebo will be a waste of his own time, there is a system in place to deal with debt collection. Usually, you call up and write to the party several times before considering a solicitor. The OP showed poor judgement but its not the end of the world and he should come out all the wiser for it.

TelePaul

Why is this a business-to-business transaction (and thus exempt from small claims)? If you can prove you provided a service and issued an invoice, you deserve to be compensated.

frobisher

TelePaul wrote: »

Why is this a business-to-business transaction (and thus exempt from small claims)? If you can prove you provided a service and issued an invoice, you deserve to be compensated.

Small claims court i there purely to expedite and reduce cost for private individuals to make claims against businesses. Totally different kettle of ball games.

Savman

TelePaul wrote: »

Why is this a business-to-business transaction (and thus exempt from small claims)? If you can prove you provided a service and issued an invoice, you deserve to be compensated.

Because the people who matter say so, that's why. I don't make the rules, but I do know the Small Claims Court will not entertain anything other than Old Grandma V Tesco type issues. It's strictly consumer V business. Commercial transactions are dealt with thru the district court and that's what this falls under.

Speaking from rather unfortunate experience, I must add.

Rockshamrover

Why not a name and shame policy? Tell the band if they don't pay up you will let all the local recording community know not to touch them. Or is this to drastic?

frobisher

The answer to this is very simple. You start off with a pleasant enough, but firm, email telling that you need to be paid. Then ramp it up from there. Keep it formal and keep it firm. Don't get angry, get paid! It's the same in every industry but bands can sometimes criminally undervalue engineers and studios. We live and we learn.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

pgasm wrote: »

Hey guys,

i have a problem! I run a studio and i had a band in over two months ago for three days. They have not paid me for the session yet. I usually dont give tracks away until i recieve payment, but due to the fact that one of the members is a friend of an engineer that works in my studio i trusted that they would get the money the next day.

Unfortunately, that has not been the case, and two months later i still have not recieved a penny and they have their songs on bebo and myspace etc...

does anyone have any advice on what to do? Or has this happened to anyone else here?

I am totally prepared to take the loss at this stage, but it just annoys me that this has happened!

cheers all!

your engineers " friend " screwed you - FIRE YOUR ENGINEER

Welease

Unless the engineer vouched for them, and promised that payment would be coming.. why would it be his fault?

The OP made the business decision to hand over the tracks before payment was recieved.. thats not the engineers fault.

tubedude

Yeah at this stage, it's not likely that you will see the money, but I would still make it a point to hassle those cheapos all the time with letters, emails, leave messages on their mspace etc. And what someone else said just, name and shame. Tell everyone you know about the guys. Go to there gigs and throw tomatoes at them.....well that's prob not a good idea...but whats the name of the band anyway??

henessjon

name and shame the bar-stards dont let anyone else get caught

trackmixstudio

If the band have not paid you, you technically own the copyright for these recorded versions of the songs.
I would contact them and tell you have contacts in most of the venues and studios around the country and will make sure they never get a gig or record again unless they pay you.
I agree about contacting myspace and bebo and reporting them for using material that is not theirs.
Name and Shame them here first in case any of us run into them.
Next find out where they post. All bands have a regular forum hang out where they talk gigs etc. Sign up and tell their "mates" what has happened.
Tell them you are an IMRO member and as a member they will take a case on your behalf. They won't know this is BS.
Last resort get a few heads together and show up at their next gig and take a high value instrument as a "deposit" until you get paid.

At this point you have lost them as a customer so don't worry about pissin them off.

Welease

trackmixstudio wrote: »

Last resort get a few heads together and show up at their next gig and take a high value instrument as a "deposit" until you get paid.

At this point you have lost them as a customer so don't worry about pissin them off.

I wouldnt recommend that course of action.. End result, you end up in court and your still out of pocket.

If you want the money and they won't pay up, then go down the legal route.. Get a solicitor and take them to court.

PaulBrewer

Shoot the drummer in the face and shift the singer's bird ....

PaulBrewer

Welease wrote: »

I wouldnt recommend that course of action.. End result, you end up in court and your still out of pocket.

If you want the money and they won't pay up, then go down the legal route.. Get a solicitor and take them to court.

No slash their tyres, burn their houses .... fair's fair

dav nagle

Get someone you know to call them up and pretend they are a solicitor and threaten them with legal action if the money isn't paid.

PaulBrewer

dav nagle wrote: »

pretend they are a solicitor and threaten them with legal action if the money isn't paid.

Whatever about shooting and burning .... ya can't be up to that kinda thing?

dav nagle

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Whatever about shooting and burning .... ya can't be up to that kinda thing?

#]

It is a good way of gauging the attitude of the band p

Savman

Not sure who's rippin the p*ss here and who's not, but some truly ridiculous suggestions here fellas. If you honestly think you can march up to them at a gig and try to 'take one of their instruments' as collateral without causing a fisticuffs, more power to ya :rolleyes:

You can report it to Myspace and Bebo if you wish, I'm sure when they've finished laughing they'll probably send you a standard fob off reply, even if you do possess evidence such as invoices raised and a confirmation from the band, in writing, that a commercial agreement even exists between you and them.

You can chase the debt yourself, hire a solicitor or write it off. Those are your only real options for a resolution tbh.

PaulBrewer

Savman wrote: »

You can chase the debt yourself, hire a solicitor or write it off. Those are your only real options for a resolution tbh.

I agree.

pgasm

i think im gonna have to just name and shame at this stage!


<snipped by frobisher>

Rockshamrover

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Shoot the drummer in the face and shift the singer's bird ....

The singers bird is the drummer and they are both related to the guitarist. Could get very messy:D

PMI

No band should leave the studio, let alone mixes or tracks before paying....

clarify upon bookin next time mate sorry to hear your problem

PaulBrewer

Rockshamrover wrote: »

The singers bird is the drummer and they are both related to the guitarist. Could get very messy:D

best leave the shooting til last then ...

Savman

pgasm wrote: »

i think im gonna have to just name and shame at this stage!


<snip>

Other than posting this thread, what have you actually done about it up to this point? Because their Bebo page would suggest they are fairly active. Maybe you should show them this thread and invite them to defend themselves and their band name.

studiorat

Do not just chalk it down to experience, fcuk that! Get on the phone, be polite but firm. Tell them this isn't going away and needs to be paid, you can't afford it and neither of you want to loose business out of this affair.

Offer to take it off them in installments if necessary. If you want tell them you are getting grief from your accountant and he is suggesting you give the bill over to a debt collection agency.

Edit> take the bloody name of the band down, don't give them an excuse to act the maggot with you!

PaulBrewer

studiorat wrote: »

Do not just chalk it down to experience, fcuk that! Get on the phone, be polite but firm. Tell them this isn't going away and needs to be paid, you can't afford it and neither of you want to loose business out of this affair.

Offer to take it off them in installments if necessary. If you want tell them you are getting grief from your accountant and he is suggesting you give the bill over to a debt collection agency.

I agree - don't let it lie. You deserve to be paid, as agreed beforehand, for your work ...

pgasm

I've tried everything I can think of. This thread was to see if anybody dealt with something like this before. I've rang all of the band memebers, sent loads of text messages and left loads of messages on their bebo page. Both personal pages and the band page. Some of my bebo messages have been deleted so I think it's gone to the stage where the band are ignoring it. There's not much more I can do except name and shame them. They have no right to defend their name. They defend themselves by removing my messages from their page, which were polite. Screw them. They know exactly what they are doing.

studiorat

I see...
These guys? <snip>

PaulBrewer

Imagine have your Band Name being branded as a Thieves all over the internet? Or more likely Fraudsters.
Especially if it got posted on the Alt/Indie Forum too..

You'd never be able to work in a studio again would you? At least not without paying up front.

To quote Wiki ...

"In criminal law, theft (also known as stealing or filching) is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's freely-given consent. As a term, it is used as shorthand for all major crimes against property, encompassing offences such as burglary, embezzlement, larceny, looting, robbery, mugging, trespassing, shoplifting, intrusion, fraud (theft by deception) and sometimes criminal conversion. In some jurisdictions, theft is considered to be synonymous with larceny; in others, theft has replaced larceny.
Someone who carries out an act of or makes a career of theft is known as a thief."

Of course this is an unproven allegation and the accused should have the opportunity to reply ...

Savman

pgasm wrote: »

They know exactly what they are doing.

Sure sounds like it, call in the debt collectors!

PMI

Judging from the video I think we can see the financial problems they are facing

they have a website? a polite email might do it from a few of us ha

Seziertisch

You have 2 choices, either get over it or contact a solicitor. I would be inclined to do the latter.

dav nagle

studiorat wrote: »

I see...
These guys? <snip>

use violence

TelePaul

Rockshamrover wrote: »

The singers bird is the drummer

Bit of a White Stripes thing going on? She's shocking!

Alter-Ego

Tell everyone you know about what the little gypsies are like. Make it impossible or at least very, very hard for them to get a gig or to get anybody to work with 'em.
Maybe sticky this thread.

These Guys?
<snip>

tubedude

Yeah I think like if you create a thread or sticky whatever with their name in the title then it will appear in searches whenever someone googles them....Like could you rename this thread with their band name??