Statisculation, Sporting Prejudice In Anti-Helmet Propaganda

Raam

A dangerous topic to be discussing in these parts, but here ya go...

http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2009/03/statisculation-sporting-prejudice-in.html

Accidents can be avoided. Injuries can be prevented. Even wearing a helmet may not prevent the accident, but just like entering a lottery increases your odds of winning by a huge margin than your neighbor who didn't (probability of winning by not entering is a big zero), wearing a helmet increases the odds of preventing critical head injuries that could otherwise rob the quality of your life pretty quickly.

It's all yours...

TinyExplosions

My friend wore a helmet, and fell off. If they hadn't had it on, they'd be dead. Helmets should be compulsory...

*sigh*

Raam

TinyExplosions wrote: »

My friend wore a helmet, and fell off. If they hadn't had it on, they'd be dead. Helmets should be compulsory...

*sigh*

In that case, I've been killed 5 or 6 times already!

Lumen

Yay, a new helmet thread!

The quote illustrates the difficulties with absolute vs relative risk.

Anyway, since I got my Rapha cap I've been cycling helmetless, to see what it's like. It feels great. I've also notice my journeys becoming less stressful, since I'm a bit more sensible and take fewer risks.

I'm starting a campaign to get style points integrated into the Glasgow Coma Scale.

I need a domain name, as I'm concerned that "dribblinginrapha.com" might infringe trademarks.

stuf

TinyExplosions wrote: »

My friend wore a helmet, and fell off. If they hadn't had it on, they'd be dead. Helmets should be compulsory...

*sigh*

My friend was sitting still in his living room with no helmet on. A runaway african elephant barged through the wall and gored him with its left tusk. The helmet wouldn't have made a difference so there

* double sigh *

Raam

stuf wrote: »

My friend was sitting still in his living room with no helmet on. A runaway african elephant barged through the wall and gored him with its left tusk. The helmet wouldn't have made a difference so there

* double sigh *

How do you know it was African? It may have been Indian.

stuf

Raam wrote: »

How do you know it was African? It may have been Indian.

tusk size - indian elephant wouldn't get near you with it's tusk never mind deal with the quality brick work that formed the wall

Raam

stuf wrote: »

tusk size - indian elephant wouldn't get near you with it's tusk never mind deal with the quality brick work that formed the wall

Just think, if your friend was carrying an elephant gun, he may have been saved.

kenmc

I know a guy who got stung by a wasp cos it got inside his (bicycle )helmet and couldn't get out. If he wasn't wearing a helmet that might not have happened.
I have a blue helmet but I've not used it yet.

stuf

Raam wrote: »

Just think, if your friend was carrying an elephant gun, he may have been saved.

elephant guns must be made compulsory and all houses equipped with early elephant warning systems to prevent such tragedies in future.

I've just realised that this is already the most sensible helmet thread of 2009

blorg

Article doesn't say whether this guy was wearing a helmet.

kenmc

blorg wrote: »

Article doesn't say whether this guy was wearing a helmet.

Different debate Blorg, thats over there in Ipods ==>
Jeez don't confuse the issue. We're talking helmets and guns here. Oh and wildlife.

72hundred

Lumen wrote: »

I'm starting a campaign to get style points integrated into the Glasgow Coma Scale.

Haha, nice reference.

Cabaal

Raam wrote: »

In that case, I've been killed 5 or 6 times already!

aaargggh Zombie!

Caroline_ie

helmets = euro ... especially white ones

stopped_clock

Hmm, I've recently begun commuting by bike again, and so I considered starting a helmet thread this morning, but thought the better of it. (Anyone have that can of worms pic?) Anyway, while I've always worn a helmet, I've been reconsidering since reading the discussions on here (but still do...).

There seem to be two distinct 'helmet-effects':
1 - Effect on probability of an accident.
2 - Effect on severity of injuries in an accident (given the accident has occurred).

It seems to me that effect 1 in particular is not measurable in any useful way and that point 2 is open to opposing interpretations. Since the odds that Raam quoted ("wearing a helmet increases the odds of preventing critical head injuries") are the combination of these 2, it's just really difficult to prove anything!

Bottom line imho is to remember that correlation doesn't imply causation.

Sorry if I've inadvertently brought the thread back on topic. Now in my own experience (anecdotes ftw!), whenever I've fallen off, I've not banged my head, helmet or otherwise, but I've always cut my hands. Glove-compulsion anyone?

Lumen

stopped_clock wrote: »

Now in my own experience (anecdotes ftw!), whenever I've fallen off, I've not banged my head, helmet or otherwise, but I've always cut my hands. Glove-compulsion anyone?

I tend to think with my hands (this has got me in trouble before). Therefore, I fully support your glove campaign.

Raam

Lumen wrote: »

I fully support your glove campaign.

What about our gun campaign?

Lumen

Raam wrote: »

What about our gun campaign?

Only if there's cake.

dave.obrien

if you cycle with a helmet and act like that makes you invincible you will not be protected by a hgv rolling over your ribcage cause you tried to go up its inside and got caught thinking, 'well, i have a helmet so i'll be fine.' if you manage to fall softly on your head, then you're in luck.

if you don't wear a helmet and happen to land on your head, good luck to you. cause i read on the internet about a guy who has a friend who got hit by a falling fridge on his bike without a helmet once, and do you know what he did? died.

if you happen to be anywhere near a bike without an elephant gun, get on it and pedal like hell, cause if that thing catches up with you, he won't be as understanding as the motorist who stares at you with incredulity for not wearing a helmet after he nudged you while pulling out into the cycle-lane without really looking.

be warned. the world is a scary place.

blorg

@stopped_clock- if you have always worn a helmet and are happy wearing one I certainly wouldn't stop based on what you read here.

I don't think many people here honestly think on balance that wearing a helmet increases risk. Most would accept that on balance it reduces overall risk. The extent of the risk is another question and many reasonably conclude that it is not so great as to neccesitate helmet wearing.

Frankly I don't particularly care whether other people wear helmets or not but strongly believe it should be their right to decide. I don't have a problem with a mandatory-use requirement from event organisers mind.

blorg

stopped_clock wrote: »

Now in my own experience (anecdotes ftw!), whenever I've fallen off, I've not banged my head, helmet or otherwise, but I've always cut my hands. Glove-compulsion anyone?

It's not compulsory but gloves are strongly recommended when racing for example, for this very reason. Cuts on the hands are not quite as serious as things that can go wrong with your head so I can understand why races have helmets mandatory but not gloves.

stopped_clock

Lumen wrote: »

Only if there's cake.

Aha - There will be Jaffa Cakes. But are they cakes or biscuits?

Raam

stopped_clock wrote: »

Aha - There will be Jaffa Cakes. But are they cakes or biscuits?

They are either a rubbish cake or a tasty biscuit.

ROK ON

Raam wrote: »

They are either a rubbish cake or a tasty biscuit.

The difference between cakes and biscuits is simply really. They need to pass the 'stale test'.

When cakes go stale the harden up, wheras when biscuits go stale they go soft and soggy.

Stale jaffa cakes are hard(ish), ergo they must be cakes.:D

xz

kenmc wrote: »

I know a guy who got stung by a wasp cos it got inside his (bicycle )helmet and couldn't get out. If he wasn't wearing a helmet that might not have happened.
I have a blue helmet but I've not used it yet.

Same thing happened to me last Summer, and mine's a red one

Raam

ROK ON wrote: »

The difference between cakes and biscuits is simply really. They need to pass the 'stale test'.

When cakes go stale the harden up, wheras when biscuits go stale they go soft and soggy.

Stale jaffa cakes are hard(ish), ergo they must be cakes.:D

The trick with Jaffa cakes is to eat the whole packet in one sitting. One packet roughly equates to a slice of cake.

stopped_clock

ROK ON wrote: »

The difference between cakes and biscuits is simply really. They need to pass the 'stale test'.

When cakes go stale the harden up, wheras when biscuits go stale they go soft and soggy.

Stale jaffa cakes are hard(ish), ergo they must be cakes.:D

Dammit, I think they're biscuits, but you said "ergo" first, so I can't win this argument!

scottreynolds

Raam wrote: »

What about our gun campaign?

Lumen wrote: »

Only if there's cake.

Ironically the guy whom the elephant attacked was also eating cake and had left is elephant gun in the kitchen as he'd needed a knife to cut his cake. He had previously that day cycles without a helmet to the local Shabeen to collect some alcohol for the cake. He did that day wear a helmet. I do however think its a stretch to say the helmet wearing killed him, although by wearing a helmet he aparently rode faster which got him home quicker

This helmet thing is extremely complex suffice to say don't carry an elephant in Dublin while riding with a helmet.

scottreynolds

stopped_clock wrote: »

Dammit, I think they're biscuits, but you said "ergo" first, so I can't win this argument!

If they're cake tomato is a vegetable.

Raam

If someone told me I was having cake and then gave me jaffa cakes, I'd be well tee'd off. I'd still eat them of course.

dave.obrien

knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit, but wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad. in the same way, don't serve a jaffa cake as a desert to a dinner party.

scottreynolds

dave.obrien wrote: »

knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit, but wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad. in the same way, don't serve a jaffa cake as a desert to a dinner party.

So if you told someone they were going to have posh biscuit cake could you just present a cheap jaffa cake from Lidl ?

Raam

scottreynolds wrote: »

So if you told someone they were going to have posh biscuit cake could you just present a cheap jaffa cake from Lidl ?

who on earth tells someone that they are having a posh biscuit cake?

blorg

stopped_clock wrote: »

Dammit, I think they're biscuits, but you said "ergo" first, so I can't win this argument!

The question of whether they are biscuits or cakes was decided in a British court in 1991- cake. This involved McVities producing a giant Jaffa cake and tests of hardness when stale. HM Customs and Excise had wished them to be classified as "luxury biscuits" so they would have been subject to VAT.

Similarly the tomato is actually classed as a vegetable for tax purposes in the United States although it is a fruit...

scottreynolds

Raam wrote: »

who on earth tells someone that they are having a posh biscuit cake?

Its theoritical but the other day I had a 'Cappacino of Butternut Squash' in a restaurant and got a bowl of soup with froth so why not.............

Raam

Who would have expected that this thread would teach us about the classification of tomatoes and jaffa cakes?

Raam

scottreynolds wrote: »

Its theoritical but the other day I had a 'Cappacino of Butternut Squash' in a restaurant and got a bowl of soup with froth so why not.............

What were you expecting when you ordered it?

scottreynolds

Raam wrote: »

What were you expecting when you ordered it?

Not sure.... thats why I ordered it :-)..

dave.obrien

scottreynolds wrote: »

Not sure.... thats why I ordered it :-)..

maybe you could bank on the same kind of surprise factor if you offered someone a desert of posh biscuit cakes?

stopped_clock

blorg wrote: »

The question of whether they are biscuits or cakes was decided in a British court in 1991- cake. This involved McVities producing a giant Jaffa cake and tests of hardness when stale. HM Customs and Excise had wished them to be classified as "luxury biscuits" so they would have been subject to VAT.

I vaguely remember the giant jaffa cake. I didn't realise it was made for a proper reason.

Can we add this thread as a sticky? Sort of a warning not to start helmet threads...

stuf

Raam wrote: »

Who would have expected that this thread would teach us about the classification of tomatoes and jaffa cakes?

What were you expecting when you ordered it?

Raam

stuf wrote: »

What were you expecting when you ordered it?

Cake.

seamus

This post is In Memory Of Andrew Callighan, who died 21 April (Saturday), two days after he was struck by a pickup truck while riding his bicycle in Michigan. Andrew, who was not wearing a helmet, was thrown several feet from his bike by the impact of the crash and was found on the side of the road when police and other rescue workers arrived. He was pronounced dead Saturday at Helen Devos Children's Hospital in Grand Rapids. Michigan has no state law regarding the use of bicycle helmets.

Jesus Christ, that's how it's started?
So, let's get this straight

1. He's a child (so he's small and breaks easy)
2. He gets hit by a vehicle weighing more than 2 tonnes.
3. He gets hit hard enough to send him "several feet"

...And it was the lack of a helmet which caused him to die. Chances are when the pikcup hit him it shattered most of the bones in its way, split/burst/damaged many vital organs, and unless he was unusually lucky, it probably not only broke, but split his spine in several places.
At best a helmet would have saved this child's life, condemning him to a life in a wheelchair, devoid of several major organs (thus requiring constant care and attention) and quite possibly simply prolonging what would be a painful and mostly unconscious death.

I hate to say it, but sometimes it's better that people die in an accident.

PachosMa

i have no idea whats going on

stuf

PachosMa wrote: »

i have no idea whats going on

search this forum for helmet - the threads are all the same

IM0

its all good and well being a good technical rider and adjusting to road conditions on the fly, and preempting and avoiding possible accidents, but when that car comes fly across in front of you and you go creaming into it head first, its then you realise...yep it really is foolish not to wear one.

Note: I am that guy, and this accident did happen, christ knows how bad it would have been without a helmet....it was bad enough with one..

Lumen

me@ucd wrote: »

christ knows how bad it would have been without a helmet

Did Jesus eat cake? Do cyclists go to church on Sundays, or does weight-weeniness extend to a complete aversion to mass?

Important questions. We need answers.

NewDubliner

me@ucd wrote: »

christ knows how bad it would have been without a helmet....it was bad enough with one..

Proof that faith and helmet-wearing are closey related.

Raam

Raam wrote: »

If someone told me I was having cake and then gave me jaffa cakes, I'd be well tee'd off. I'd still eat them of course.

Just for giving you fake cake? That's pretty harsh.

stuf

Lumen wrote: »

Did Jesus eat cake? Do cyclists go to church on Sundays, or does weight-weeniness extend to a complete aversion to mass?

Important questions. We need answers.

Don't forget the elephants