Gerry McCaughey Chairman of DDDA - should not have had to resign

francish

How many directors of Irish companies have not legally reduced their tax liability? I fail to understand why he had to resign.

Berti Vogts

francish wrote: »

How many directors of Irish companies have not legally reduced their tax liability? I fail to understand why he had to resign.

Completely agree. Controversy is laughable. Businessman takes steps to legally reduce his tax liability on the advice of his accountants. What an outrage!

Darragh29

The Duke of Wellington once said..."It is the patriotic duty of every man to do his utmost to pay as little tax as possible"...

Newaglish

You know, they keep telling us to shop around. Someone goes to Italy for a tax bargain and loses their job! You can't win really.

It amazes me how populist a lot of these cuts and firings are becoming these days. Surely the person to lose their job should be the one who designed the inefficient tax system?

thebigcheese22

Darragh29 wrote: »

The Duke of Wellington once said..."It is the patriotic duty of every man to do his utmost to pay as little tax as possible"...

Grrr typical Tories... :mad:

is_that_so

If the Greens had known they'd never have nominated him in the first place. In private industry most probably wouldn't care but this kind of thing distracts from the office especially as most of us don't believe we can trust anyone. Legally there is nothing wrong with it, but it is not appropriate for someone who gets to spend public money. It is amusing to see the chap muttering about "sinister forces".

Godge

Yes he should resign. Paying your taxes is the first and most important characteristic of a good citizen. Sometime old-fashioned values are important.

getcover

is_that_so wrote: »

In private industry most probably wouldn't care but this kind of thing distracts from the office especially as most of us don't believe we can trust anyone. Legally there is nothing wrong with it, but it is not appropriate for someone who gets to spend public money.

Isn't this the problem though? That taxes are seen as something that people must do their best to avoid paying?
It's this culture which has causing this country so much difficulty (more than others, I think).
Taxes should be seen not as a necessary evil to be avoided where possible, but a positive contribution to the everyday life of this state. Taxes are a real call to patriotic duty, and its one way Lenihan could make a serious contribution to this country, by begining the proces of changing minds and behaviours in relation to tax.

Raiser

There's a difference between having to and being told to.......

- The fact is that the Green Party couldn't have survived the shítstorm that would have followed.

As it is the average Irish voter would have an easier time swallowing a clubbed, barbecued baby seal than the ridiculous nonsense the Green Party are pushing down our sorry throats....

I hope it wasn't Silvio McCaughey who was going to create Deirdre The Burkhas "thouands of new jobs"......

is_that_so

getcover wrote: »

Isn't this the problem though? That taxes are seen as something that people must do their best to avoid paying?
It's this culture which has causing this country so much difficulty (more than others, I think).
Taxes should be seen not as a necessary evil to be avoided where possible, but a positive contribution to the everyday life of this state. Taxes are a real call to patriotic duty, and its one way Lenihan could make a serious contribution to this country, by begining the proces of changing minds and behaviours in relation to tax.

It is and in an ideal world we would all consent to that patriotic duty. The simple fact is that no-one likes paying tax, and the Irish collectively are as resistant as any other nation, hence the massive range of indirect and stealth taxes. Despite the anger directed at the fact that he "got away with it" there is always the other question of "how can I do something like that?".

getcover

is_that_so wrote: »

It is and in an ideal world we would all consent to that patriotic duty. The simple fact is that no-one likes paying tax, and the Irish collectively are as resistant as any other nation, hence the massive range of indirect and stealth taxes. Despite the anger directed at the fact that he "got away with it" there is always the other question of "how can I do something like that?".

I agree with you.
But, to quote somebody famous, the time for change is now.
Lenihan should be start the process of changing out attitude to tax, and get it through to everybody that avoidance/evasion damages the whole country

Berti Vogts

It's up to the government to tighten the tax laws. McCaughey was given a legal tax avoidance scheme by his accountants. Let's be honest, he did what most others would have done in the circumstances. The taxation of the sale of businesses is a very complicated area with a number of different ways to structure it. It is completely unrealistic to expect businessmen to choose the option which would lead to the greatest amount of tax which is what some of ye seem to be suggesting.

This controversy is based on ill informed, populist guff - simple as that.

jmayo

McCaughey shouldn't have resigned.
He should have been fired along with the rest of the DDDA.
It is just a fancy quango populated by bankers and developers.
BTW how many of them were from Anglo and why did they provide loans to the DDDA to start speuclating in property ?

There is a huge stink hanging around that organisaiton and the sooner it is wiped out along with perks it provides it's top staff and directors the better for this country and it's taxpayers.
Why did they have a meeting to discuss the purchase of the Irish Glass Bottlers plant held in San Sebastion in Spain ?
Couldn't they find anywhere actually in Dublin to hold the meeting. :rolleyes:

Godge

Possibilities wrote: »

It's up to the government to tighten the tax laws. McCaughey was given a legal tax avoidance scheme by his accountants. Let's be honest, he did what most others would have done in the circumstances. The taxation of the sale of businesses is a very complicated area with a number of different ways to structure it. It is completely unrealistic to expect businessmen to choose the option which would lead to the greatest amount of tax which is what some of ye seem to be suggesting.

This controversy is based on ill informed, populist guff - simple as that.

That is not the point. Lots of things are legal but those who are appointed to public positions should be measured to a higher standard. Otherwise we would get people like Ray Burke, Charlie Haughey, Bertie Ahern, Joe Burke, Sean Fitzpatrick and their like appointed to public positions. Oh, we did get them. At least this time, when the higher standards that should be applied to politicians and public appointments were applied, the man stood down. Fair play to him that he didn't try to brazen it out like all the others.

Gekko

He's been the victim of a smear, using leaked information, which in my view has the fingerprints of a certain property developer on it.

JonathanAnon

To say that he has nothing legally wrong is true. But as a supposed Irish man and patriot who would be working in the national interest, he went to ridiculous lengths to keep the money out of the state coffers.

I think we expect it of most private business men, but not of somebody who is going to work for the Government. I think it just sets the wrong tone. The cosmetics of it just look all wrong.

dresden8

Possibilities wrote: »

This controversy is based on ill informed, populist guff - simple as that.

The sooner the "ill informed populist guff" takes off and crooks who rob the rest of the country blind and lecture us on our patriotic duty, get screwed the sooner this country will start to recover.

Don't forget the main reason we have zero credibility abroad is the perception of the "golden shower" I mean "circle" who have this country sewn up and can do what they want.

The destruction of the cosy cartel is merely the first step in the reformation of this country.

is_that_so

Gekko wrote: »

He's been the victim of a smear, using leaked information, which in my view has the fingerprints of a certain property developer on it.

Smear campaigns tend to involve half-truths and rumours. All of this is perfectly true and something he should have disclosed before his nomination. That would have lessened the risk of it coming out in the open.

Fluffybums

JonathanAnon wrote: »

To say that he has nothing legally wrong is true. But as a supposed Irish man and patriot who would be working in the national interest, he went to ridiculous lengths to keep the money out of the state coffers.

I think we expect it of most private business men, but not of somebody who is going to work for the Government. I think it just sets the wrong tone. The cosmetics of it just look all wrong.

The previous taoiseach hadn't sorted out his tax going back to the 1990s, wrote blank cheques, did not have a bank account when Minister of Finance and thought that not paying back money given to him, qualified as a loan; he was re-elected whilst all this was coming to light. Based on this I'd say the electorate expect worse of government than private business men.

CtrlSource

Godge wrote: »

That is not the point. Lots of things are legal but those who are appointed to public positions should be measured to a higher standard. Otherwise we would get people like Ray Burke, Charlie Haughey, Bertie Ahern, Joe Burke, Sean Fitzpatrick and their like appointed to public positions. Oh, we did get them. At least this time, when the higher standards that should be applied to politicians and public appointments were applied, the man stood down. Fair play to him that he didn't try to brazen it out like all the others.

To link Gerry McCaughey with names like Ray Burke and Charlie Haughey is unfair. He broke no laws as far as i know. There's a big difference between avoidance and evasion.

His resignation was understandable. As he said himself, he didn't seek the position. It wouldn't have been worth him staying on - what with the media attention and resulting upset caused to his family. Feel sorry for the guy

turgon

JonathanAnon wrote: »

But as a supposed Irish man and patriot who would be working in the national interest, he went to ridiculous lengths to keep the money out of the state coffers.

So you want him to throw money at those other "patriots" who run our country?

I dont get how people can both a) complain about the state of the government and b) complain about tax avoidance. People would have no problem paying tax if we actually got good levels of service in return.

Steerpike

turgon wrote: »

So you want him to throw money at those other "patriots" who run our country?

I dont get how people can both a) complain about the state of the government and b) complain about tax avoidance. People would have no problem paying tax if we actually got good levels of service in return.

Are you really, seriously contending that the super wealthy in this country are not paying tax because our transport system and hospitals are not up to scratch? So it's out of principle then? Not sheer greed?

This guy made €30 million from selling Century Homes (on the back of asset price inflation created by property-based Government tax shelters and incentives. Capitalism, Irish-style), and capital gains tax had already been lowered from 40 to 20 per cent, but he (with KPMG's help) decides to take advantage of a non-residency tax law, even though he is not a non-resident, though selling the shares to his wife who goes to live in Italy for the specified term, who then sells them on to a third party.

That might not be illegal in this banana republic, but it's immoral in my view. Certainly someone should not be head of a State board if they have done this, IMO.

To those who condescendingly view this as a "populist" issue, maybe they should bear in mind that it is the "populist" PAYE sector who will have to bear the brunt of the mess we now all face, and who do not have the option of hiding their money away.

This particular "loophole" has been closed off, but in the last analysis, the residency tax laws must be overhauled.

francish

Steerpike wrote: »

Are you really, seriously contending that the super wealthy in this country are not paying tax because our transport system and hospitals are not up to scratch? So it's out of principle then? Not sheer greed?

This guy made €30 million from selling Century Homes (on the back of asset price inflation created by property-based Government tax shelters and incentives. Capitalism, Irish-style), and capital gains tax had already been lowered from 40 to 20 per cent, but he (with KPMG's help) decides to take advantage of a non-residency tax law, even though he is not a non-resident, though selling the shares to his wife who goes to live in Italy for the specified term, who then sells them on to a third party.

That might not be illegal in this banana republic, but it's immoral in my view. Certainly someone should not be head of a State board if they have done this, IMO.

To those who condescendingly view this as a "populist" issue, maybe they should bear in mind that it is the "populist" PAYE sector who will have to bear the brunt of the mess we now all face, and who do not have the option of hiding their money away.

This particular "loophole" has been closed off, but in the last analysis, the residency tax laws must be overhauled.

Let's say a PAYE worker could legally avoid paying any tax by pursuing a certain course of actions. Honestly, what percentage do you think would take up this option?

While I think it was wrong that the tax systems allowed Mr. McCaughey to avoid paying tax, it is unfair to criticise someone for something which I and I think most other people would also do if we were in the same situation.