Rules question: rakes & bunkers

Mister Sifter

Player A hits his tee shot into the bunker. When he gets to the bunker, he passes the only rake in the bunker, lifts it out the bunker and continues his walk around the side of the bunker over to where his ball is around 20 yards away. His intention was to save time and keep play moving, i.e. not have to hit the shot and then walk back to get the rake.

He drops the rake by his bag and plays the shot. He then rakes the bunker and moves on.

Has the player broken any rule here?

whatawaster

Graeme1982 wrote: »

Player A hits his tee shot into the bunker. When he gets to the bunker, he passes the only rake in the bunker, lifts it out the bunker and continues his walk around the side of the bunker over to where his ball is around 20 yards away. His intention was to save time and keep play moving, i.e. not have to hit the shot and then walk back to get the rake.

He drops the rake by his bag and plays the shot. He then rakes the bunker and moves on.

Has the player broken any rule here?

not any rule that i know of. I've probably done it myself over the years without thinking.

ShriekingSheet

No breach of rules there Graeme.


Movable Obstructions (Rule 24-1)
Movable obstructions (i.e. artificial movable objects such as rakes, tin
cans, etc.) located anywhere may be moved without penalty. If the ball
moves as a result, it must be replaced without penalty.

If a ball is on a movable obstruction, the ball may be lifted, the
obstruction removed and the ball dropped, without penalty, on the
spot directly under where the ball lay on the obstruction, except that
on the putting green, the ball is placed on that spot.

BUACHAILL

As far as I know the rake must remain in the bunker if its been found in the bunker. I dont think its a penalty provided its lifted cleanly up and not raked any sand etc ( hence testing the sand) and placed in the sand again . This is a great question as I often thought similar to yourself and above has always been my take on it.

I have often seen people doing this, taking the rake to bring it closer to their ball, rake was in bunker and as they remove the rake and walk backwards they are raking their footprints as they go.... total no no

Patrick_K

Think he has 'tested the condition of the bunker' by lifting the rake before playing the shot hasnt he ?
Not sure on the rule or penalty for it off the top of my head.
I think its a bit silly myself, cant see what you'd gain by it really and as you say in the interest of time it makes sense to bring the rake.

PK

Mister Sifter

I always thought it was fine to do it. It's something i'd do quite regularly. However, someone put it to me recently that by doing so i was testing the sand. They felt that if i did this in an inter club match that i'd lose the hole.

I was fairly sure he was wrong, but thought i'd see what the general consensus was. There's certainly nothing steadfast against it in the rule book.

When i do pick up the rake, i always ensure that i pick it straight up, like i would a tee out of the ground. I don't actually rake the sand. In my opinion this is not testing the sand and gives me no feel for what the sand will be like when i hit my shot.

If someone was to pick me up on it in competition, i think i would find it very hard to accept. Surely, walking in the bunker and nestling in my feet before the shot gives me a far better indication of what the sand is like rather than the rake.

(Before someone starts nitpicking by the way, this was in a practice round. )

Blunder

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

No breach of rules there Graeme.


Movable Obstructions (Rule 24-1)
Movable obstructions (i.e. artificial movable objects such as rakes, tin
cans, etc.) located anywhere may be moved without penalty. If the ball
moves as a result, it must be replaced without penalty.

If a ball is on a movable obstruction, the ball may be lifted, the
obstruction removed and the ball dropped, without penalty, on the
spot directly under where the ball lay on the obstruction, except that
on the putting green, the ball is placed on that spot.

I would have thought that If the ball came to rest on a movable object, say against a rake that was on a steep bank of a bunker, and this prevented the ball from entering the bunker but when the rake was removed the ball was clearly going to go into the bunker that once the rake was removed the ball was played as it lay whether that be in the bunker or on the slope.

The reason I would have thought this was that:

a) had the rake not been there then the Ball would have entered the bunker anyway
b) that on steep slopes it would be very hard to place the ball successfully.

I guess, now that I think about it, I remember in one of the south african events this year I think Richard Sterne (not sure, could have been someone else) benefitted from the fact his ball was stopped from entering the water inside the hazard line. Here he could remove the cables and play the shot saving the prospect of a dropped shot.

I'm confused now!!

BUACHAILL

i dont see anything wrong with this either and its something i also do quite often , i mean if ball is against rake ( different story i know) and u get to remove rake without penalty and replace your ball if it moves without penalty i dont see why u cannot move rake closer to your ball to save time etc, its same action and before i am pulled up on it i know its hugely different circumstances.

I also think you would want to be playing with some Ahole to pick you up on this action !!


Here is one for you and sorry Graeme dont mean to rob thread !! but your opinion please

Playing a matchplay recently and the 2 pairs behind us playing the last and all square. Home team drives up the middle of the fairway, away team puts ball into bunker on the left of fairway, also bunker directly opposite on the right. Both bunkers have lots of edging soil in them were they had been cut away by groundstaff. some bunkers had been gur that day with signs in them !! as the pairs approached the balls they all noticed that the ball in bunker was lying in front of removed soil, soil was about a foot think so no possible shot, this bunker had no GUR sign but was clearly ground under repair, bunker opposite was in exact same condition and had a sign

What should happen ???

ShriekingSheet

Graeme1982 wrote: »

I always thought it was fine to do it. It's something i'd do quite regularly. However, someone put it to me recently that by doing so i was testing the sand. They felt that if i did this in an inter club match that i'd lose the hole.

I was fairly sure he was wrong, but thought i'd see what the general consensus was. There's certainly nothing steadfast against it in the rule book.

When i do pick up the rake, i always ensure that i pick it straight up, like i would a tee out of the ground. I don't actually rake the sand. In my opinion this is not testing the sand and gives me no feel for what the sand will be like when i hit my shot.

If someone was to pick me up on it in competition, i think i would find it very hard to accept. Surely, walking in the bunker and nestling in my feet before the shot gives me a far better indication of what the sand is like rather than the rake.

(Before someone starts nitpicking by the way, this was in a practice round. )

Your absolutely right Graeme. No one could do you for this in any competition unless you were brushing the rake about the sand.

ShriekingSheet

BUACHAILL wrote: »

Here is one for you and sorry Graeme dont mean to rob thread !! but your opinion please

Playing a matchplay recently and the 2 pairs behind us playing the last and all square. Home team drives up the middle of the fairway, away team puts ball into bunker on the left of fairway, also bunker directly opposite on the right. Both bunkers have lots of edging soil in them were they had been cut away by groundstaff. some bunkers had been gur that day with signs in them !! as the pairs approached the balls they all noticed that the ball in bunker was lying in front of removed soil, soil was about a foot think so no possible shot, this bunker had no GUR sign but was clearly ground under repair, bunker opposite was in exact same condition and had a sign

What should happen ???

As per the rules "Ground under repair includes material piled for removal and a hole made by a
greenkeeper, even if not so marked."

Nearest point of relief applies - from the edging soil though, not from the bunker. If the nearest point is out of the bunker that's fine, if it's within the bunker relief must be taken there.

BUACHAILL

do u mean if nearest point is within the bunker you take it from there ??
You cannot drop a ball in a bunker ?????

Just on your first point thats exactly what we had said to the home guy and he refused this. we called their captain over and he agreed with our ruling and allowed nearest point of relief which was outside the bunker. the home player then started to attack his club captain, i was embarrassed for him

Mr. Larson

Similarly, is it true if you mark your ball on the green and use the surface [the green] to rub muck off your ball or clean it that's also a penalty... because you are 'testing' the surface. Does it matter whether you're doing this in your putting line or anywhere on the green?

Blunder

Jabberwocky wrote: »

Similarly, is it true if you mark your ball on the green and use the surface [the green] to rub muck off your ball or clean it that's also a penalty... because you are 'testing' the surface. Does it matter whether you're doing this in your putting line or anywhere on the green?

Yes this is true.

Mister Sifter

Jabberwocky wrote: »

Similarly, is it true if you mark your ball on the green and use the surface [the green] to rub muck off your ball or clean it that's also a penalty... because you are 'testing' the surface. Does it matter whether you're doing this in your putting line or anywhere on the green?

Yes that's true. Anywhere on the green would be penalty.

Hobart

BUACHAILL wrote: »

do u mean if nearest point is within the bunker you take it from there ??
You cannot drop a ball in a bunker ?????

Just on your first point thats exactly what we had said to the home guy and he refused this. we called their captain over and he agreed with our ruling and allowed nearest point of relief which was outside the bunker. the home player then started to attack his club captain, i was embarrassed for him

Why can you not drop a ball in the bunker? Of course you can.

ShriekingSheet

BUACHAILL wrote: »

do u mean if nearest point is within the bunker you take it from there ??
You cannot drop a ball in a bunker ?????

Yes you can.

Drop at nearest point of relief, whether that is in or out of the bunker makes no odds, you drop at the nearest point.

george67

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Yes you can.

Drop at nearest point of relief, whether that is in or out of the bunker makes no odds, you drop at the nearest point.

i think you can only drop outside the bunker if the whole bunker is g.u.r or with no room to drop from piled grass.

PhilipMarlowe

Rule 25/13
Bunker Totally under repair:

If an entire bunker is being renovated, it does not lose its status as a hazard. However, it is recommended that the Committee should, during the renovation period, define the bunker as ground under repair and classify it as through the green. If such a bunker has been defined as ground under repair but has not been classified as through the green, the player may, under Rule 25-1b(ii):
(a) drop the ball without penalty in the bunker as near as
possible to the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer
the hole, on ground which affords maximum available relief, i.e. ground which is most nearly normal, or
(b) drop the ball under penalty of one stroke behind the bunker, keeping the point where the ball lay between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped.

PhilipMarlowe

Rule 13/4-21
Rake thrown into bunker before stroke:

Q.
A player's ball lies in a bunker. He casually throws a rake into the bunker for use after his stroke. The rake does not move his ball or improve the lie of the ball. Does the player incur a penalty?

A.
Placing a rake in a bunker is permissible. In this case, throwing the rake into the bunker was the equivalent of placing it. If the rake had moved the ball, the player would incur a penalty of one stroke for causing his ball to move; and the ball would have to be replaced – Rule 18-2a.

PhilipMarlowe

Q.
What is meant by “test the condition of the hazard” in Rule 13-4a?

A.

The term covers all actions by which the player could gain more information about the hazard than could be gained from taking his stance for the stroke to be made, bearing in mind that a certain amount of digging in with the feet in the sand or soil is permitted when taking the stance for a stroke.

Examples of actions that would not constitute testing the condition of the hazard include the following:

• digging in with the feet for a stance, including for a practice swing, anywhere in the hazard or in a similar hazard;
• placing an object, such as clubs or a rake, in the hazard;
• leaning on an object (other than a club) such as a rake while it is touching the ground in the hazard or water in a water hazard;
• touching the hazard with an object (other than a club) such as a towel (touching with a club would be a breach of Rule 13-4b); or
• marking the position of the ball with a tee or otherwise when proceeding under a Rule.

Examples of actions that would constitute testing the condition of the hazard in breach of Rule 13-4a include the following:

• digging in with the feet in excess of what would be done for a stance for a stroke or a practice swing;
• filling in footprints from a previous stance (e.g., when changing stance to make a different type of stroke);
• intentionally sticking an object, such as a rake, into sand or soil in the hazard or water in a water hazard (but see Rule 12-1);
• smoothing a bunker with a rake, a club or otherwise (but see Exception 2 to Rule 13-4);
• kicking the ground in the hazard or water in a water hazard; or
• touching the sand with a club when making a practice swing in the hazard or in a similar hazard (but see Exception 3 to Rule 13-4). (New)

BUACHAILL

sorry folks i was slightly unclear in my post , i mean u cannot drop in a bunker that is gur and was more so a question !! , obviously not meant in general terms