The Book of Enoch.

JimiTime

This originates from another thread, where Soulwinner brought up the book in question. It was quoted in Jude's letter, and Enoch is held up as a hero of the faith in Hebrews. Having read a good chunk of it since SW posted a link I ask, 1) Why is it that Enoch is not viewed as scripture? and 2) Given all the clear references to 'The Son of Man' etc, why is it not given more of a mention even if its not classed as scipture?

I did spot one spurious point. It was when he was in the the land of Dan. The land of Dan did not exist in Enochs day.

Would be very interested if anyone has read this book, and what they make of it all. I'd ask any non-christians posting, to do so with decorum and understanding that I want this to remain in the realm of a Christian discussion.
Thanks.

studiorat

The Nephilim story could be another spurious point. Angles mating with humans?

hivizman

studiorat wrote: »

The Nephilim story could be another spurious point. Angles mating with humans?

As Pope Gregory the Great said, "Non Angli sed angeli". Not Angles but angels.

JimiTime

hivizman wrote: »

As Pope Gregory the Great said, "Non Angli sed angeli". Not Angles but angels.

I don't follow?

PDN

JimiTime wrote: »

I don't follow?

Pope Gregory saw some blond-haired slaves from Britain on the auction block at a slave market and asked who they were. He was told they were Angles (as in Anglo-Saxon). He famously commented, "Non Angli sed angeli". (Latin for - "Not Angles but angels.")

Hivizman used Gregory's quote in reference to Studiorat's mis-spelling of 'angels' as 'angles'.

Normally, as a mod, I try to discourage posters from correcting or commenting on one another's spelling, since, being in Ireland, the spelling and grammar tends to be so atrocious that the board would grind to a halt if we started pointing out every error. I'm making an exception on this occasion, not because of the personalities involved (and I do hope Studiorat understands that, even though we have had a number of run ins recently), but because Hivizman's comment was truly Wildean in its wit, especially given the recent hysterical slavery threads over on the A&A forum.

studiorat

Very Christian of you to forgive the typo! I usually try to be more careful.

I do so much enjoy our little spats PND!

Anyway back to Enoch, real Indiana Jones stuff it is too!

Despite its unknown origins, Christians once accepted the words of this Book of Enoch as authentic scripture, especially the part about the fallen angels and their prophesied judgment. In fact, many of the key concepts used by Jesus Christ himself seem directly connected to terms and ideas in the Book of Enoch.

Our man Enoch lived in antediluvian times, in the ancient imagination at this time, the world was a very different place. Men lived much longer; Enoch's son lived to be 969 years old.
Also at this time angels and humans interacted freely, so freely as for these angels (Watchers) to have children with Human females. (Genesis 6:1). Some sources see this as the reason for the punishment that was the deluge of flood.
The offspring of these unions were giants of 450 feet high! These giants and angels began to persecute the human population and teach them to do evil. Enoch tried to intercede with God on the giants behalf but was unsuccessful.

Unfortunately, little remains of the independent adventures of the giants, but it is likely that these tales were at least partially derived from ancient Near Eastern mythology. Thus the name of one of the giants is Gilgamesh, the Babylonian hero and subject of a great epic written in the third millennium B.C.E.

It is very interesting to see the similarities between the legends of Judea and it's neighbours. Noah and Ut-Napishtim who also appears in the Epic of Gilgamesh provides us with many parallels. http://www.religioustolerance.org/noah_com.htm

Babylonian myths also provide us with other parallels such as the creation account found in Genesis.

JimiTime

Not sure why this thread hasn't much response. I suppose I should ask have any of the christians here read it? If so, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

For those interested, you can read it here

It is one of the dead sea scrolls. It is also quoted in the book of Jude. I am considering really getting into this, so any issues that you guys see or saw would be appreciated.

Fanny Cradock

I might not get around to reading it today. But when I do I'll report back :pac:

studiorat

Are we thinking of converting to Rastafari lads?;)

http://www.jahtruth.co.uk/enoch.htm

We are seeking a publisher for the complete one hundred and five Chapter "Book of Enoch." If you can help or know somebody who might be interested in helping to get it published, please contact us at jahpublications@eircom.net or at the following address.

hivizman

JimiTime wrote: »

Not sure why this thread hasn't much response. I suppose I should ask have any of the christians here read it? If so, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

It is one of the dead sea scrolls. It is also quoted in the book of Jude. I am considering really getting into this, so any issues that you guys see or saw would be appreciated.

I've not read the Book of Enoch, but perhaps will soon. It survived in a version in Ethiopic, a semitic language that (at least based on the excerpt I've seen in a transliterated form) looks a bit like classical Arabic. Also, some chapters survived in a Greek version. You are right in saying that fragments of an Aramaic version of the Book of Enoch have been found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, and Geza Vermes, the authority on the Dead Sea Scrolls, notes that "Qumran Cave 4 has yielded seven copies of the writing attested to, but not strictly identical to, the Ethiopic. Paleographically, all of them are dated to between 200BCE and the end of the pre-Christian era. The bulk of the fragments is too small for translation." The English-language version available on the internet was translated by Richard Charles around 1890 (I provide a link to the 1917 version in the Epistle of Jude thread), before the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered, and there have been subsequent critical editions and translations into English that reflect the later discoveries.

The Wikipedia article on the Book of Enoch is a thorough-looking one (I'm sure you've read it, but I'm providing a link for other people following the thread).

I note that the Book of Enoch is classed as one of the "Pseudepigrapha". I may be generalising too much here, but my experience is that most Christians find it a challenge to read the canonical material in the Old and New Testaments in any depth, and an interest in the Pseudepigrapha tends to be limited to scholars.

JimiTime

hivizman wrote: »

I note that the Book of Enoch is classed as one of the "Pseudepigrapha". I may be generalising too much here, but my experience is that most Christians find it a challenge to read the canonical material in the Old and New Testaments in any depth, and an interest in the Pseudepigrapha tends to be limited to scholars.

I find it curious that it is omitted from Canon. I wonder why the omission? I've read that the Jews stopped using it around 85AD too. Just wondering what the issue was. There is alot of Messianic talk in it, so I wonder was that their reason. Why the Christians got rid though?

studiorat wrote: »

Are we thinking of converting to Rastafari lads?;)

http://www.jahtruth.co.uk/enoch.htm

I've got 7 Bob Marley albums, I think that makes me rasta?!:)

Soul Winner

studiorat wrote: »

Are we thinking of converting to Rastafari lads?;)

http://www.jahtruth.co.uk/enoch.htm

Funny you should say that. Rastafarianism, Druidism and Atheism are just some of the new subjects included in the GCSEs in the UK. More here

I'm a big fan of Marley. Always loved his music and songs. Have all his albums. It was probably his lyrics more than anything else that spurred me toward an understanding of the Bible at a young age. If nothing else his lyrics taught me that the Bible was a book that was alive inside and was to be read and understood. Sadly to say I never got that from my Catholic mass going upbringing but that does not mean I believe that Haile Selassie was the second coming of Christ, I don't.

Jimi its been years since I read Enoch so I'm a bit rusty. Will give it a whirl again sometime soon. From what I remember there is a lot of spiritual angelic realm stuff in it. Watchers, Angels and wot not, Raphael, Gabriel, and Michael are mentioned often as far as I remember, and before God took him, multitudes followed Enoch and mourned after him. He was a great great man of God by all accounts.