At death's door: The Pious fight harder

Mena

It would seem, based on a study done by the Dana-Faber Cancer Institute, that the pious fight death the hardest.

The study, following 345 patients with terminal cancer found that "Those who regularly prayed were more than three times more likely to receive intensive life-prolonging care than those who relied least on religion." and that they were the least likely to have filled in a DNR or Do Not Resuscitate order.

"As well as receiving resuscitation, they were much more likely to be placed on mechanical ventilation in the last few days of life."

BBC Article

Paradoxical? You'd think that a strong belief in the afterlife would lead to a more resigned acceptance of death than those of us who believe death to be final.

Or, given the Judeo-Christian abhorrence of suicide, and the belief that it is God who must ultimately decide when it is 'our time,' is it felt that refusing aggressive life support measures or resuscitation is tantamount to deliberately ending one's life prematurely?"

None-the-less, I found the article and research interesting.

Red Hand

345 is a pretty small number to deal with in statistics. And how do the surveyors take it to be that you are more religious if you pray more often? Like, for many people like my grandparents, praying the rosery each evening at 6.00pm was a norm....I'm not even sure my grandfather even thought that hard about religion. It was a habit. And imo, for many people, outside of the evangelical movement, it is a habit.

Zillah

Belief in heaven can lead to belief in hell

When Voltaire was on his deathbed a priest gave him the last rites and begged him to reject Satan and all his works. Voltaire responded "Now now my good man, now is no time to be making enemies".

AtomicHorror

I believe the study also mentioned that this tendency also meant that the religious had a generally poorer quality of death as a result of their insistence on the most aggressive and prolonged treatments possible.

I agree that the study size is not as big as it could be, but it's not bad at all.

Galvasean

I would have taught the more religious people would be more acceptant of death, what with the going to heaven bit. Although maybe they knew thay were going to hell?
As others have said, yeah I too would have liked a larger number of people surveyed.

Fanny Cradock

To my mind these type of studies are always hampered by their attempts at defining what exactly constitutes a believer or, in this case, 'religious coping'. Could or should somebody who draws a certain comfort from religion in their last hours be considered a believer? This is why I am always sceptical of any significance put on the stats that say the overwhelming majority of Americans believe in God(s) and attend regular services.

Anywho, the 7.7% difference isn't huge, but it does come as a surprise. Like most people, I would have thought that the prevailing thought would be a resignation to their fate and a willingness to meet their maker. This said, I have encountered an attitude amongst some Christians who believe that life is a sacred gift from God (the body is a temple etc.) and should be protected. This is one reason, I guess, why many pro-lifers would have some sort of Christian faith. To my knowledge this type of attitude is also prevalent in Judaism. Could this have anything to do with it?

It wiould be nice if there is a breakdown in the religions/ denominations assessed.

Fanny Cradock

I would also like to point out that the title of the thread - specifically the "pious" part - doesn't seem to be the focus of the study. Rather the focus is upon "those who draw on religion to cope with their illness" or "positive religious coping".

So the title should really read:

At death's door: Those who draw on religion to cope with their illness fight harder.

Granted it's not quite as catchy.

Dave!

You'll never work in marketing Fanny Cradock!

Fanny Cradock

You heartless brute!

Mena

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I would also like to point out that the title of the thread - specifically the "pious" part - doesn't seem to be the focus of the study. Rather the focus is upon "those who draw on religion to cope with their illness" or "positive religious coping".

So the title should really read:

At death's door: Those who draw on religion to cope with their illness fight harder.

Granted it's not quite as catchy.

I went for catchy, as well as not taking up the whole page with a title :pac:

philologos

Galvasean wrote: »

I would have taught the more religious people would be more acceptant of death, what with the going to heaven bit. Although maybe they knew thay were going to hell?
As others have said, yeah I too would have liked a larger number of people surveyed.

It isn't all about heaven or hell. Some people may feel they have more to do before they die, and maybe to let their friends and family know about Christ before they leave this world. I don't see what is so wrong with that, we have things to do here before we die.

Dades

Jakkass wrote: »

It isn't all about heaven or hell. Some people may feel they have more to do before they die, and maybe to let their friends and family know about Christ before they leave this world. I don't see what is so wrong with that, we have things to do here before we die.

I don't recall anyone saying there was anything wrong with anything.

And I don't see how being Christian would lead to the attitude that they have more to do before dying - if anything that's at odds with the idea of an afterlife. If anything a non-believer should be concerned that they haven't done all they wanted to do in their only life.

As for spreading the word of God, I suspect that isn't something on the mind of your common-or-garden deathbed patient.

bluecell99

Galvasean wrote: »

I would have taught the more religious people would be more acceptant of death, what with the going to heaven bit. Although maybe they knew thay were going to hell?
As others have said, yeah I too would have liked a larger number of people surveyed.

Exactly.Just why do the altar rail chewer's dont want to let go?Or perhaps more to the point why do they impose their will on those in the last stages and where the roman catholic ethos is too let them suffer and prolong their agony.

Disgusting.

Dades

Sorry, who exactly is imposing their will on somebody else? Or were you looking for an excuse for a rant...

philologos

Dades wrote: »

And I don't see how being Christian would lead to the attitude that they have more to do before dying - if anything that's at odds with the idea of an afterlife. If anything a non-believer should be concerned that they haven't done all they wanted to do in their only life.

As for spreading the word of God, I suspect that isn't something on the mind of your common-or-garden deathbed patient.

Christians have things to do before they leave this earth, infact it was a big theme in Paul's epistles.

Philippians 1:21-24 wrote:

For to me living is Christ, and dying is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labour for me; and I do not know which I prefer. I am hard pressed between the two: my desire is to depart ad be with Christ, for that is far better; but to remain in the flesh is more necessary for you.

Building up the church, and spending time with loved ones in order to be able to impart something to them before you die is a rather important thing to do if you truly believe it has something to do with their salvation.

Christianity is about far far more than an afterlife, infact Christianity while we are still here is hugely important too.

Dades

Jakkass wrote: »

Christians have things to do before they leave this earth, infact it was a big theme in Paul's epistles.

My point was that most "Christians" including, I suspect, the type surveyed, haven't the foggiest about Paul's epistles or any interest in proselytising.

Genghiz Cohen

"Now now my good man, now is no time to be making enemies".

One of my favourite quotes of all time.

Jakkass wrote:

Christians have things to do before they leave this earth, infact it was a big theme in Paul's epistles.

While on mechanical respiration?

If your god decides to take you, who are you to use science to defy him? In fact, all those who go to hospital and recieve life saving care are defying god and going straight to hell.

philologos

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

If your god decides to take you, who are you to use science to defy him? In fact, all those who go to hospital and recieve life saving care are defying god and going straight to hell.

Actually, there are many passages in the Bible which discuss the use of medicine. It's nice to be able to use a reductio ad absurdum every so often I guess though.

Jeremiah 8:22, Jeremiah 46:11, Luke 10:34, 1 Timothy 5:23, these are just a handful.

On a quick google I also found a book concerning Medicine in the Bible and the Talmud:
http://books.google.ie/books?id=SL34EWxAJfYC

So no, by taking medicine we aren't defying God in any shape or form.

Genghiz Cohen

Jakkass wrote: »

Actually, there are many passages in the Bible which discuss the use of medicine. It's nice to be able to use a reductio ad absurdum every so often I guess though.

Jeremiah 8:22, Jeremiah 46:11, Luke 10:34, 1 Timothy 5:23, these are just a handful.

On a quick google I also found a book concerning Medicine in the Bible and the Talmud:
http://books.google.ie/books?id=SL34EWxAJfYC

So no, by taking medicine we aren't defying God in any shape or form.

So why have a group of people been excommunicated (Link) for using medicine to save a nine year old girls life?

Hivemind187

Mena wrote: »

It would seem, based on a study done by the Dana-Faber Cancer Institute, that the pious fight death the hardest.

The study, following 345 patients with terminal cancer found that "Those who regularly prayed were more than three times more likely to receive intensive life-prolonging care than those who relied least on religion." and that they were the least likely to have filled in a DNR or Do Not Resuscitate order.

"As well as receiving resuscitation, they were much more likely to be placed on mechanical ventilation in the last few days of life."

BBC Article

Paradoxical? You'd think that a strong belief in the afterlife would lead to a more resigned acceptance of death than those of us who believe death to be final.

Or, given the Judeo-Christian abhorrence of suicide, and the belief that it is God who must ultimately decide when it is 'our time,' is it felt that refusing aggressive life support measures or resuscitation is tantamount to deliberately ending one's life prematurely?"

None-the-less, I found the article and research interesting.

Have I read that right?

They are more likely to receive care? I'm assuming I have read this wrong and it's not as stupid as it seems.

Those who are praying are more likely to receive interventionist care. Thats not fighting. Thats being fought for.

Fanny Cradock

Dades wrote: »

My point was that most "Christians" including, I suspect, the type surveyed, haven't the foggiest about Paul's epistles or any interest in proselytising.

It's quite likely that most don't have such a knowledge. However, we don't know what peoples' level of biblical knowledge was in the study. It could very well be that they were ignorant of large chunks of the bible but embarked on a frantic search of the NT. It should also be stressed that the study was not specifically a Christian/ non-believer divide.

The study only had a limited focus and did not seek to explain why the results are as such. Hopefully they will get around to attempting to tackle this. Though I am surprised that no one has implied that those drawing on religion to cope with their illness didn't really believe - thus attempting to undermine all religious faith.

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

If your god decides to take you, who are you to use science to defy him? In fact, all those who go to hospital and recieve life saving care are defying god and going straight to hell.

Granted there might be some people who believe this. My opinion would be that they are a minority that operate on or around the lunatic fringes. I do not believe that God sits up in heaven and decides to 'takes us' - "Humm... Yes, a spot of cancer will be an amusing end to this chap's life." In terms of Christian context, I believe that such reasoning is as accurate as the notion that heaven is our final destination and their we will be floating on clouds playing harps - which is to say not accurate at all.

philologos

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

So why have a group of people been excommunicated (Link) for using medicine to save a nine year old girls life?

I'm not an authority on the Vatican or on Catholicism by any means.

If the child's life was endangered it's better to save 1 life than have 2 die.

Genghiz Cohen

Jakkass wrote: »

If the child's life was endangered it's better to save 1 life than have 2 die.

MrPudding

Jakkass wrote: »

It isn't all about heaven or hell. Some people may feel they have more to do before they die, and maybe to let their friends and family know about Christ before they leave this world. I don't see what is so wrong with that, we have things to do here before we die.

Given that your god is all powerful and all knowing, would it not be reasonable to assume that if he is "calling you home" he is happy that you have fulfilled all that is required of you and you are now ready to receive your reward? Is fighting death like this not an indication of doubt of his word, or at the very least an indication that he does not know what is best for you?

MrP

Fanny Cradock

MrPudding wrote: »

Given that your god is all powerful and all knowing, would it not be reasonable to assume that if he is "calling you home" he is happy that you have fulfilled all that is required of you and you are now ready to receive your reward? Is fighting death like this not an indication of doubt of his word, or at the very least an indication that he does not know what is best for you?

MrP

I don't believe so.

Genghiz Cohen

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I don't believe so.

Why?
Everyone should ask why more!

Fanny Cradock

See post 21

Genghiz Cohen

Ah, but why do you believe that?

Fanny Cradock

Which part? I addressed a couple of things there: heaven and death. It might be better starting another thread on the topics (possibly in the Christianity forum) rather than bumping this one off its tracks.

But by way of providing a short answer: because I see it in the bible.

Genghiz Cohen

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

But by way of providing a short answer: because I see it in the bible.

Right'o!

Mena

Hivemind187 wrote: »

Have I read that right?

They are more likely to receive care? I'm assuming I have read this wrong and it's not as stupid as it seems.

Those who are praying are more likely to receive interventionist care. Thats not fighting. Thats being fought for.

It is slightly misleading in how it's worded, but I can't be faulted for that :pac:

We all know what they mean though, based on the article from the Dana-Faber website and the corresponding BBC article.

eoin5

Were fighting death every time we eat (well, maybe not when were eating XXL Double bacon cheeseburger meals). The yahweh plan for death prevention must have a cutoff somewhere between breathing and us making clones for organs. I'll make a snide assumption that its a very vague and fuzzy cutoff that most religious people cant agree on.

Dades

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

But by way of providing a short answer: because I see it in the bible.

Ask a short question - get a short answer!

Hivemind187

Mena wrote: »

It is slightly misleading in how it's worded, but I can't be faulted for that :pac:

We all know what they mean though, based on the article from the Dana-Faber website and the corresponding BBC article.

Ah right ... so it is horse**** then.

*relaxes*.