Good primary degree if you want to do Medicine as a post grad?

Amed22

Hi,

I was wondering if any med students/doctors out there could give me some advice.

I am 22 years old and will be starting a degree course in september. I have not been in the position to go to college until now due to circumstances, and I have put a lot of thought into what I want to do over the past few years and have decided I would love to study medicine.

Unfortunately i do not have the LC points for medicine, although I definitely have the academic ability, my head was not together at the time I sat the leaving cert. My options are:

1. wait for another year and apply as a mature student for the 5/6 year degree course or
2. do a primary degree in something else over the next three years and apply to study medicine post graduately over 4 years

I have to say I am leaning towards the second option as it will only take 1 more year of study, and I think after being out of school for a while it may be better to try a less demanding degree before comitting to medicine.

My question is, which area should I study as a primary degree? a science related degree is the obvious choice, but I am very interested in psychology and I feel that doing a primary degree in this area would give me a very interesting foundation for going into medicine.

I would really appreciate any advice you might have, or suggestions for a good primary degree for getting into medicine. Thanks!:)

Faith

Biomedical or biological sciences would be you best bet, I'd imagine. Although I'm fairly sure all those courses are 4 years in Ireland. If you could go to England, you can do them in 3 years.

The points for psychology are still 500+ unless you do it through arts.

Would you just sit the Leaving Cert again and try and get the points? If you don't succeed, you'll be 23 anyway and can apply as a graduate.

MicraBoy

The criteria for getting into medicine via the postgrad route is a 2:1 in any honours degree, plus the required score in the GAMSAT, so in my opinion you should do what ever course you feel you would enjoy.

Of course by doing something in the science field it will make doing the GAMSAT exam a lot easier when the time comes for that. I would consider doing something like an honours Science degree in that case. I am sure there are loads of other science/biomed type courses to consider also, but think it is really important to enjoy the course you choose to do.

Amed22

Hi Faith

Thanks for the response.
Yeah I know points are high for psychology except if you go to a private college, but then your paying 5 grand a year, and post grad medicine is very expensive to say the least, realistically I cannot afford to do both!

the other option is to do a non science related degree over 3 years(there are a few, but most of these are 4 aswell!)
Do you think it is really necessary to have a science related degree?

I would consider sitting the leaving again, but like you said I would be 23 by the time I do that so can apply as a mature student anyway, would it not be better to do an access course over this year and apply as a mature student or would I have no chance of getting in this way?

Amed22

MicraBoy wrote: »

The criteria for getting into medicine via the postgrad route is a 2:1 in any honours degree, plus the required score in the GAMSAT, so in my opinion you should do what ever course you feel you would enjoy.

Of course by doing something in the science field it will make doing the GAMSAT exam a lot easier when the time comes for that. I would consider doing something like an honours Science degree in that case. I am sure there are loads of other science/biomed type courses to consider also, but think it is really important to enjoy the course you choose to do.

seems like you answered most of my questions, I know a science degree is my best bet for getting into medicine, but I am also very interested in humanities, thats why psychology is perfect for me, it combines science with the arts....maybe I'll consider studying in the uk

nesf

Amed22 wrote: »

seems like you answered most of my questions, I know a science degree is my best bet for getting into medicine, but I am also very interested in humanities, thats why psychology is perfect for me, it combines science with the arts....maybe I'll consider studying in the uk

Psychology degrees (to the best of my knowledge) won't give you a solid background in biology which honestly is a big help in the GAMSAT. You don't need a science degree but it would definitely make both the GAMSAT and Medicine degree much easier if you had a BioChem or Genetics degree done.

Not that there's anything wrong with going from Psychology into Graduate Medicine, my sister did that route. My brother did Genetics in UCC and he covered a lot of modules that would be helpful in reducing the workload in a Medical degree in it.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Isn't there a course in maynooth where you study science and psychology.

But OP - if you wanna be a Doctor go the Science route, biomedical science or bio chemistry, something like that.

ZorbaTehZ

Psychology really would not be of any major advantage to you to be quite honest. Biochemistry would be the ideal degree although it most certainly is not everyone's cup of tea - you could go the general science route and that should give you a good idea at the end of 1st year of what you might like to do a science degree in.

Amed22

Thank you all so much for the advice it is really helping me -
if anyone else has an opinion let me know.
I'm looking into the biochemistry at the moment,but think I would probably
be more interested in genetics
the more feedback I get the more I realise what interests me and what doesn't, so thanks again:)

nesf

Amed22 wrote: »

Thank you all so much for the advice it is really helping me -
if anyone else has an opinion let me know.
I'm looking into the biochemistry at the moment,but think I would probably
be more interested in genetics
the more feedback I get the more I realise what interests me and what doesn't, so thanks again:)

These are the modules in Genetics in UCC. People who've actually done Medicine might be able to point out which would be useful to you in Medicine: http://www.ucc.ie/calendar/science/sci007a.html

Edible

I'm gonna go against everyone else and advise you to do an arts degree. Something along the english/philosophy or even psychology side. For one thing it's only three years. You will also do far better in sections I and II than the science students, which accounts for half the test. . Speaking as someone who just sat the GAMSAT today, despite the practice papers making it look easy, the science section is actually really tough, even I had to guess most of the answers (I'm a final year biology/chemistry student and have been averaging a first so far in all my exams). I'd say I did no better in the science section than most of the arts students. Besides, it's been statistically proven that arts graduates have a higher probability in succeeding in the GAMSAT, partly due to the ratio of science to arts graduates.

ZorbaTehZ

Edited by Tallaght01: We have a nice atmosphere here, and there's no need to be nasty to posters. C'mon, we're all old enough to be able to give our opinions civilly.

LilMrsDahamsta

Make sure you investigate the fee implications of your decision before finalising any applications; and look at it again after the April 7th budget.

I started the first year of my primary degree the year before I qualified to be a mature student and finiancially it was a costly decision. Not that I regret it - I was working in a deadend job and wanted out - but I would encourage you to make yourself aware of the difference in funding available for primary and post-graduate degrees.

Amed22

Yeah I have been looking into the fees issue,
What exactly do you mean when you say financially it cost you?
are you doing a primary degree and hoping to study med as a post grad?
I would be interested to know any info you have on what grant entitlements etc you might have as a mature student or whatever you can tell me about your situation. Thanks!

etymon

I would say, if you're not a big reader or into English or anything do constant work on the side of a science degree to keep yourself safe for the GAMSAT. For example, join a creative writing class. Read whatever is top of the bestseller lists in fiction and non-fiction. Learn to speed-read.
But I think the basic underlying degree you want is something that involves organic or bio chem. It's not something you want to try and pick up at the last minute. (But if you're going to, get the Dummies guides - they're brill!)

oconnoao

Would you consider repeating the Leaving Cert over the next year? Of course the points are very tough to get, but it would get you focussed on studying again and get you ready for medicine, then you can next year apply as a mature student, and you would be at the same level as most students. And if you do get the points for medicine, you'll be sorted!

If you do a primary degree first, you'll get it free, but you will have to pay to study medicine after, whereas if you wait and do medicine as your first degree you should qualify for free fees (pending changes by the Government).

I'm currently finishing a course in medicinal chemistry and a few are hoping to go into medicine after, but the course is probably closer to pharmacy than to medicine.

worksucks

What about Radiography either Diagnostic or Therapeutic Radiography/Radiation Therapy. In Trinity you study anatomy and physiology with Med students for the 1st 2 years definitely not sure about the 3rd and 4th years.
Can do them in 3 years in UK if you go to Scotland no fees not even registration fees.

Amed22

oconnoao wrote: »

Would you consider repeating the Leaving Cert over the next year? Of course the points are very tough to get, but it would get you focussed on studying again and get you ready for medicine, then you can next year apply as a mature student, and you would be at the same level as most students. And if you do get the points for medicine, you'll be sorted!

If you do a primary degree first, you'll get it free, but you will have to pay to study medicine after, whereas if you wait and do medicine as your first degree you should qualify for free fees (pending changes by the Government).

I'm currently finishing a course in medicinal chemistry and a few are hoping to go into medicine after, but the course is probably closer to pharmacy than to medicine.

Yeah, Im actually thinking of repeating the leaving now, just for the fact that post grad med is so expensive, think I have the ability to get the points,
I am just praying that the fees dont come back in and if they do that they are reasonable!!
I have been checking out a course in colaiste dhulaigh which I could start in sep.(fetac course) called medical laboratory science - year long and covers all the basics of biology,chemistry and physics.
Does anyone think this would be good to do plus doing the leaving again at the same time?

mardybumbum

Imho, if you were going to do the leaving cert again, it would be best to concentrate on that alone.
I believe with this HPAT system now in place, you must fulfill all the matriculation requirements within one sitting of the LC.

blipp

Anything that would make your life easier in the medical course is what I would suggest! A physiology degree would be perfect. I'm currently doing a graduate medicine couse and those who have done physiology before have more time to focus on other subjects and cruise the physiology (to a certain degree!)

tallaght01

I did biomedical sciences before medicine, and found it really really useful.

ergo

I think a physiotherapy degree would be very useful, especially if you might end up working in GP or A+E with a lot of musculo-skeletal injuries/conditions seen there

in Queensland in Australia where there is no undergraduate (only postgrad) medicine course (afaik) a lot of the docs either had done physio or pharmacy before med

haemfire

tallaght01 wrote: »

I did biomedical sciences before medicine, and found it really really useful.

Did you do an actual Biomedical Science degree (accredited by AMLS) or just one of the 'biomedical degrees' that every uni under the sun are offering

If so did you work in biomedical science before studying med?

tallaght01

I did a fully accredited one, in case my med school application didn't work out.

But, in many ways, the non-accredited ones are better for med school, as you can choose more optional modules. The time I spent learning how to fix machines would have been better spent on an optional anatomy module, for example.

Agree with the physio option. The best graduates in my class were those who'd done physio before. But if you get the points for physio, you can probably get into medicine.

liberal

Amed22 wrote: »

Hi,

I was wondering if any med students/doctors out there could give me some advice.

I am 22 years old and will be starting a degree course in september. I have not been in the position to go to college until now due to circumstances, and I have put a lot of thought into what I want to do over the past few years and have decided I would love to study medicine.

Unfortunately i do not have the LC points for medicine, although I definitely have the academic ability, my head was not together at the time I sat the leaving cert. My options are:

1. wait for another year and apply as a mature student for the 5/6 year degree course or
2. do a primary degree in something else over the next three years and apply to study medicine post graduately over 4 years

I have to say I am leaning towards the second option as it will only take 1 more year of study, and I think after being out of school for a while it may be better to try a less demanding degree before comitting to medicine.

My question is, which area should I study as a primary degree? a science related degree is the obvious choice, but I am very interested in psychology and I feel that doing a primary degree in this area would give me a very interesting foundation for going into medicine.

I would really appreciate any advice you might have, or suggestions for a good primary degree for getting into medicine. Thanks!:)

Ive heard people say physiology is the best and i know one girl that said she cruised through 1st and 2nd med after doing it, i do biomed and i reckon it will go well with med, ill know my blood work backwards and will have a foundation in pharamcology, physiology and have biochem and micro in excess of med requirements.... i lack toxicology and only did basic anatomy and histology, also biomed is hands on and and you'll be well used to the blood **** and piss of med, its tough tho, prob one of the toughest bioscience degrees, its 5 years in some places but u can get out the gap in 4 in ucc but u still have to do a year internship but thats irrelevant if u want to do med.......

If u do a science degree keep all your notes from 1st year as they'll be the job for the gamsat....wish i did

liberal

Amed22 wrote: »

Yeah, Im actually thinking of repeating the leaving now, just for the fact that post grad med is so expensive, think I have the ability to get the points,
I am just praying that the fees dont come back in and if they do that they are reasonable!!
I have been checking out a course in colaiste dhulaigh which I could start in sep.(fetac course) called medical laboratory science - year long and covers all the basics of biology,chemistry and physics.
Does anyone think this would be good to do plus doing the leaving again at the same time?

I say leave it off, doubt the course would be much beyond hons lc bio, chem and phy and the rest wud prob be lab tech skills like which wouldn b any use for med, i could be wrong tho

Faith

Bear in mind that if you apply as a mature student, you'll be up against huge competition. I study in the University of Edinburgh, which has a fantastic medical school. Every year, over 200 mature candidates apply for medicine, and a maximum of 15 get a place. Those 15 will have relevant degrees, mountains of work experience, very high UKCAT scores, etc.

If you're 23, with relatively low Leaving Cert points, no primary degree, no work experience etc, your chances of getting a place as a mature student are very low.

JuliusCaesar

I was a bit at a disadvantage not having done biology in the LC when studying Psychology. There's a lot of Psychophysiology (what makes us feel hungry?) and Neuropsychology (effects of brain damage on the mind). There's also lots of Statistics! But there's very little Abnormal Psychology in an undergraduate degree, it's all about studying the normal processes. Most people don't realise this....

laika72

I'm studying straight undergrad psychology atm and I agree with the above, we have barely touched on abnormal. Completely different to what I thought it was going to be like. Also, I find that there isn't very much science at all in my course. Sure, we do the basics but nothing in depth that wasn't touched on in LC biology.
I'm taking a year out next year to repeat my leaving for medicine and I really feel that psychology will not be of any benefit to me should I get the course. As regards choosing a course for practical reasons I think biomed any of the biosciences would be far more valuable if you are considering the postgrad option. Not only would a degree like this help you with gamsat itself but also with the actual course.

liberal

the points for biomed in ucc next year will be higher than medicine so i've heard, it will be CAO entry as apposed to entering via 2nd year biochem which is supposed to be hard to get... i just whish i was younger and could of tried to get med via the new undergraduate route...not to be...not to be....

patrickowens1

UCD has a three year science degree with a lot of scope for picking and choosing your modules. As far as I'm aware the fourth year is just to make it an honours degree, which you wouldn't need for GEM. The UCD admissions dept confirmed this for me over the phone recently. This would only take a year longer than doing regular undergrad med after LC. My niece is starting this 3 year science degree this September with a view to sitting Gamsat in a few years and starting GEM.

Does anyone know any reason why this option mightn't be a runner for my niece or for 'Amed22'?

Thanks

finty

patrickowens1 wrote: »

UCD has a three year science degree with a lot of scope for picking and choosing your modules. As far as I'm aware the fourth year is just to make it an honours degree, which you wouldn't need for GEM. The UCD admissions dept confirmed this for me over the phone recently. This would only take a year longer than doing regular undergrad med after LC. My niece is starting this 3 year science degree this September with a view to sitting Gamsat in a few years and starting GEM.

Does anyone know any reason why this option mightn't be a runner for my niece or for 'Amed22'?

Thanks

Think you are wrong about the 3 year degree being enough. From the CAO website you must hold an honours bachelor degree (NFQ Level 8) and have a minimum 2:1 grade in it

patrickowens1

Thanks Finty - I do hope you're not right though, after advising my niece - and calling UCD for her!! I know an NFQ Level 8 degree is required but the girl in admissions assured me that this would be covered by just 3 years of the UCD science degree.

I just had a look on the UCD website again. This page in particular - http://www.ucd.ie/registry/academicsecretariat/nfq.htm

The 'UCD Major Awards' table and footnote on that page to be applicable.

The footnote says:

*BSc students who do not progress to Stage 4 of the BSc programme but who have achieved 180 credits with a minimum of 100 ECTS at level 2 or above and a minimum of 40 ECTS at level 3 or above would be awarded a BSc (General Science) degree which would be classified as a Level 8 degree on the NQAI scale.

Prior to modularisation, students graduated with a BSc (General) after satisfactorily completing 3 years of study. The programme outcomes of the BSc (General) and the current 180 credit BSc (General Science) award are comparable. The University has designated NFQ Level 8 to the BSc (General) Degree.


I presume "180 credits with a minimum of 100 ECTS at level 2 or above and a minimum of 40 ECTS at level 3" means performing to a certain standard in exams and picking modules with enough credits associated with them. Does anyone know a practical meaning of this terminology?

Thanks

finty

http://www2.cao.ie/otherinfo/GraduateEntryMedicine.pdf


this does specifically refer to having an honours degree, but suppose UCD admissions should know as they are running a GEM. It'd be a great was to save a year if it works out

grisham

patrickowens1 wrote: »

Thanks Finty - I do hope you're not right though, after advising my niece - and calling UCD for her!! I know an NFQ Level 8 degree is required but the girl in admissions assured me that this would be covered by just 3 years of the UCD science degree.

I just had a look on the UCD website again. This page in particular - http://www.ucd.ie/registry/academicsecretariat/nfq.htm

The 'UCD Major Awards' table and footnote on that page to be applicable.

The footnote says:

*BSc students who do not progress to Stage 4 of the BSc programme but who have achieved 180 credits with a minimum of 100 ECTS at level 2 or above and a minimum of 40 ECTS at level 3 or above would be awarded a BSc (General Science) degree which would be classified as a Level 8 degree on the NQAI scale.

Prior to modularisation, students graduated with a BSc (General) after satisfactorily completing 3 years of study. The programme outcomes of the BSc (General) and the current 180 credit BSc (General Science) award are comparable. The University has designated NFQ Level 8 to the BSc (General) Degree.


I presume "180 credits with a minimum of 100 ECTS at level 2 or above and a minimum of 40 ECTS at level 3" means performing to a certain standard in exams and picking modules with enough credits associated with them. Does anyone know a practical meaning of this terminology?

Thanks

A general degree is awarded after 3 years in science in ucd. To do GEM you need an honours degree, this is awarded only after the 4th year of science. Sorry to give the news. Never trust anyone in admin!!

EORaghallaigh

i studied pharmacology (4 year science degree) in UCD and half my class went on to study medicine in glasgow, edinburgh, limerick and rcsi... so i'd say it might be looked upon favorably by the GEM admissions staff...

Traumadoc

If you had enough points for Pharmacology, why not do Medicine as a primary degree?

EORaghallaigh

Traumadoc wrote: »

If you had enough points for Pharmacology, why not do Medicine as a primary degree?

sorry you must have misinterpreted... i said half my class (not me) went off to study medicine after pharmacology...

this is a while back, the points for science were 475 and medicine 590... so i'd say they missed out on medicine first time around....

SaturnV

I suspect I'm coming to this topic a little late for this advice, but...

A few years ago, when graduate entry wasn't formalized (in this country anyway), having a degree (or, even better, a masters or PhD) in a biological sciences was a distinct advantage in actually getting onto the course. This is no longer true in the current system, as others have mentioned. So what are the other advantages? The advantage in the GAMSAT seems to be debatable. Having a degree in a biological science may make some aspects of the early part of a graduate medical degree easier. But remember that these graduate programmes are designed so that you don't *need* to have extensive prior knowledge of the biology.

There's another side to this coin. A colleague of mine did medicine after a PhD a few years ago. He found it very difficult to stay focussed when much of the first year seemed trivially easy to him. This shouldn't happen any more; the graduate programmes are (supposed to be) designed to avoid just this kind of thing.

Remember, the trend in medical education these days is not to teach, for example, pharmacology and physiology as discrete subjects, but to teach "vertically". Now, they try teach the basics by system, e.g. a course which covers, say, the respiratory system from the biochemistry through anatomy and physiology to the diseases. This is particularly true for graduate entry programmes. Nobody will have everything already covered, unless they're already a medic!

I'd suggest you need to think a little further down the line in terms of how your primary degree might affect your later career. My experience from teaching on a graduate entry programme in the UK was that they were specifically trying to recruit non-science graduates; people from a business, legal, or humanities background. These people have the potential to add value to the profession when they complete their training. It's a nice idea; in theory they could be a completely different type of medic. Does it work? It's too early to tell. But the competitive element of your career doesn't end when you start your medicine degree. Having a different background, and a different perspective, may make you stand out over your peers.

That was a long winded way of saying this: do the degree you are most interested in, because you'll probably find a way to make it work to your advantage at some point.

drrkpd

"That was a long winded way of saying this: do the degree you are most interested in, because you'll probably find a way to make it work to your advantage at some point"- SaturnV.

Totally agree with this statement from Saturn. Number 1 you are far more likely to get a 2.1 in something you enjoy. Number 2 don't forget the UK for graduate entry or even applying for a straight 5 year medical course. Fees much less though don't know where you live or if you can travel. No fees for Irish students in Scotland and student loan scheme for fees of probably£3,500 in UK -considerably less than Irish graduate entry!!!

bioscience

hi drrkpd,

would you know if the grad entry-med courses in the uk are easier to get into than ireland in terms of entry tests? and would you know if the gamsat test in ireland is based on your IQ or your knowledge of science and medical knowledge??
im doing a science degree now and thinking to sit the gamsat afterwards so im really curious about the gamsat, or if anyone else might know anything about it?

thanks.

allsaintssue

I am studying general nursing in TCD, and I think it is giving me the best start for a career in medicine, particularly becasue of the amount of time I spend out on placement in the hospital. This week , for example, Im doing my theatre placement and in the last 4 days I ve seen 14 surgeries and scrubbed in to two of them, that is such an amazing oppurtunity and you get a kind of feel for the different areas of medicine and how a hospital works in general, plus all the course work is going to stand to you when you study medicine

drrkpd

bioscience wrote: »

hi drrkpd,

would you know if the grad entry-med courses in the uk are easier to get into than ireland in terms of entry tests? and would you know if the gamsat test in ireland is based on your IQ or your knowledge of science and medical knowledge??
im doing a science degree now and thinking to sit the gamsat afterwards so im really curious about the gamsat, or if anyone else might know anything about it?

thanks.

Bioscience I think that some of the graduate programmes in the UK are easier to get in but I am not an expert in GAMSAT I am afraid.

flerb22

theres a new course in trinity called "human health and disease"
http://www.tcd.ie/courses/undergraduate/az/course.php?id=271

otherwise do a subject that will get you some exemptions (ie includes physiology, biochemistry, pharmacology, anatomy etc)

edit: just realised that the human health and disease includes physiology, biochem, anatomy....its alot like medicine. except a bit more research based rather than clinical based.

imported_guy

if you do grad med, you'll have to pay fees, if you do it as a mature student, you'll benifit from the great socialist education system