College fees

BLITZ_Molloy

The FAS guys have a roll that checks they're going to their lecturers. If they don't go they get kicked off. Why not do the same with students? As things stand they have their fees paid, and often receive other government grants and rent assistance. Mature students get a ton of money.

Why doesn't the government make the colleges take an attendance, and then dock you per class not attended. That way they'd be rewarding the people who make a real go of it, and discouraging the lazy ones from taking the piss. You'll drag your hungover head in for 9pm if it's going to lose you 30 or 40 euro that day. Maybe they could introduce this scheme in 2nd year to give people a chance to go a bit mad initially, or to account for them hating the course they picked.

I was also thinking maybe there's some way they could discriminate between the money paid for each course. If the student picks a course that fulfills a particular role in the workforce that is undersupplied then they'd get more money. If they were doing something that was oversubscribed then they wouldn't get much. Maybe that wouldn't be considered fair, but it'd be practical. And it'd cut down on the numbers of people going to college and getting qualifications that aren't any use to them or employers.

CreepingDeath

They did have role call when I was in college, and docked money from the ESF grant we used to get if we didn't attend.

omahaid

One of the things you learn in college is to work in your own without anyone prodding you to do it (in theory). If attendance is taken, then its like school and you never learn to work on your own motiviation. Thus, one of the benefits of college is lost

GAAman

BLITZ_Molloy wrote: »

As things stand they have their fees paid, and often receive other government grants and rent assistance. Mature students get a ton of money.

:rolleyes:

No we dont, i had to almost threaten Dublin city council with legal action as they said i was not gonna be eligible to get any grant, and in the end i got a paltry 3 grand (at the time converted into around £2600. My rent alone is £250 a month and its a 10 month term contract do the maths

Oh and my uni, like alot of others i would imagine do take the roll in fact one lecture goes on for 2 hours with a 10 minute break and he takes the roll after the break to catch out who leaves

Lockstep

omahaid wrote: »

One of the things you learn in college is to work in your own without anyone prodding you to do it (in theory). If attendance is taken, then its like school and you never learn to work on your own motiviation. Thus, one of the benefits of college is lost

I agree.

It's the big part of learning to be an adult; you learn to go to lectures on your own bat as you recognise it's in your own interests. Those who don't bother will pay the price eventually.

brianthebard

You want a clock in system OP? Presumably then I would be entitled to extra grants (overtime if you will) for putting in 12 hour days and coming in on the weekend? Do I get double time for bank holidays as well? Maybe you are on to something OP...

mikemac

BLITZ_Molloy wrote: »

As things stand they have their fees paid, and often receive other government grants and rent assistance. Mature students get a ton of money.

The system already exists though it's not perfect. With poor attendance your local VEC can withhold grant payments.
Leaving aside the fact that you're lucky to get your grant cheque by Christmas!!

BLITZ_Molloy wrote: »

You'll drag your hungover head in for 9pm if it's going to lose you 30 or 40 euro that day..

I don't know your drinking habits that you would be hungover at that time

BLITZ_Molloy wrote: »

If the student picks a course that fulfills a particular role in the workforce that is undersupplied then they'd get more money. If they were doing something that was oversubscribed then they wouldn't get much. Maybe that wouldn't be considered fair, but it'd be practical. And it'd cut down on the numbers of people going to college and getting qualifications that aren't any use to them or employers.

If you're going to use Art students as the obvious example, a lot of them go on to be teachers or civil servants. Hardly worthless.

How you predict a labour need in 4 years time?
I started an IT degree in middle of the dot com boom. Oh, the government was encouraging it and needed workers for this sector.
lol, when I graduated, ne'er a job to be had. So be it, these things happen and I work in another sector nowadays
These things go in cycles, how can you know?

Naos

brianthebard wrote: »

You want a clock in system OP? Presumably then I would be entitled to extra grants (overtime if you will) for putting in 12 hour days and coming in on the weekend? Do I get double time for bank holidays as well? Maybe you are on to something OP...

You'd hopefully learn more, get a better qualification and thus get a better job earning better money.

Ostrom

BLITZ_Molloy wrote: »

The FAS guys have a roll that checks they're going to their lecturers. If they don't go they get kicked off. Why not do the same with students? As things stand they have their fees paid, and often receive other government grants and rent assistance. Mature students get a ton of money.

Why doesn't the government make the colleges take an attendance, and then dock you per class not attended. That way they'd be rewarding the people who make a real go of it, and discouraging the lazy ones from taking the piss. You'll drag your hungover head in for 9pm if it's going to lose you 30 or 40 euro that day. Maybe they could introduce this scheme in 2nd year to give people a chance to go a bit mad initially, or to account for them hating the course they picked.

I was also thinking maybe there's some way they could discriminate between the money paid for each course. If the student picks a course that fulfills a particular role in the workforce that is undersupplied then they'd get more money. If they were doing something that was oversubscribed then they wouldn't get much. Maybe that wouldn't be considered fair, but it'd be practical. And it'd cut down on the numbers of people going to college and getting qualifications that aren't any use to them or employers.

Try doing it with a class of 400+ four times a week, its impossible without compromising the quality of the class and taking resources from small-group teaching to handle the admin - not to mention the extra work needed to monitor and manage grant allocations with data from hundreds of class groups

The best I have seen (I think it is in some rooms still in Trinity and WIT?) is a swipe-card door access system - clock into the lecture room before class and it goes onto your record. Also completely unworkable long term as it is open to all sorts of challenges further down the line - technical hitches, denial, cheating....

KerranJast

If they don't go to lectures and labs they'll eventually fail anyway and will have to pay repeat fees out of their own pocket.

RATM

BLITZ_Molloy wrote: »

As things stand they have their fees paid, and often receive other government grants and rent assistance. Mature students get a ton of money.

As a mature student I'd like you to qualify that statement. I get a annual grant of €3100, it is nowhere near a ton of money. My annual rent is €6,000, that has to be paid before I put food in my mouth.
As another poster mentioned he got a grant of £2,600 back in the days of the IR£, at least pre-2002 and nowadays it is €3,100 which just goes to show the grant has been totally outstripped by inflation, rent prices and the general cost of living.

It amazing how this recession brings people to thinking of ideas of how to hit the most vulnerable in society. Seems like pensioners, students, civil servants and the unemployed are all fair game these days. It's hard to believe the PD's have disbanded when ideas like this are knocking about.

brianthebard

Naos wrote: »

You'd hopefully learn more, get a better qualification and thus get a better job earning better money.

Education isn't or shouldn't be measured in units of time. And whether a job is better or not is entirely subjective.

Ostrom

Naos wrote: »

You'd hopefully learn more, get a better qualification and thus get a better job earning better money.

I wish it were that easy

Tech3

There is regular attendance checks on students in order to see if they are attending classes. 75% of classes have to be attended in IT's in order to still obtain a grant.

I dont know where your going with this op but college grants are not regulation free here.

BLITZ_Molloy

Well, mature students get a ton more money than I do then. I was a month and a half too young to qualify so I'm a bit bitter about it.

The college are always ranting on to us at the start of the year about the fact that statistically speaking the people who go to the most lectures tend to do the best in their exams.

OK, I concede that judging the worth of degrees is a moral quagmire and pretty hard to predict.

The delays in the grand cheques are absolutely ridiculous alright. I won't disagree with anybody there.

I was merely wonder is there some way to motivate the bad students to go to college and do well. Have the government get better value for their money so they don't have to start considering reintroducing fees across the board and blocking lots of capable people from going into higher education.

I don't really care for the 'work under your own steam' theory in college. If you don't turn up to work with no excuse you get fired. If you don't go to secondary school with no excuse you get punished. I've been around colleges long enough now to know the poor attendance that is typical in many courses. I don't know what the failure/dropout rate is but I'm sure it's not pristine.

They're pushing 'self directed learning' as the new buzzword in my college. We changed to symesters last year and there are less lectures and more assignments. It just seems to me to be a cheap way of cutting down on lecturers. If I'm supposed to muddle my way through things in my own time instead of being taught how to do something then why am I/the government paying so much bloody money.

BLITZ_Molloy

OK, so what I was trying to say essentially and I think I got a bit lost there isn't there some way to save money and get better students out of the bargain? Having students go to more of their lectures could hardly have a downside.

thebigcheese22

RATM wrote: »

As a mature student I'd like you to qualify that statement. I get a annual grant of €3100, it is nowhere near a ton of money. My annual rent is €6,000, that has to be paid before I put food in my mouth.
As another poster mentioned he got a grant of £2,600 back in the days of the IR£, at least pre-2002 and nowadays it is €3,100 which just goes to show the grant has been totally outstripped by inflation, rent prices and the general cost of living.

It amazing how this recession brings people to thinking of ideas of how to hit the most vulnerable in society. Seems like pensioners, students, civil servants and the unemployed are all fair game these days. It's hard to believe the PD's have disbanded when ideas like this are knocking about.

3100 is a lot of money IMO, us students that go to college after Leaving Cert get a lot less than that. I dont see why this is tbh as mature students have probably worked and saved up a tonne of money while we're fairly poor.

Tech3

RATM wrote: »

I get a annual grant of €3100, it is nowhere near a ton of money. My annual rent is €6,000, that has to be paid before I put food in my mouth.

Annual Rent €6000? which is 500 a month. Im sorry but that is really excessive. Im sure there are ways of cheaper rent in the area you live.

tolosenc

I was admitted to college to READ for a degree. Instruction is on top of that.

thelordofcheese

BLITZ_Molloy wrote: »

The FAS guys have a roll that checks they're going to their lecturers. If they don't go they get kicked off. Why not do the same with students?

Because lecturers are lecturers, not schoolmarms. If you can't or don't want to go to a lecture that's entirely your own perogative. You're supposed to be an adult when you get to uni, so you'll have to deal with the consequences of your poor attendance, like an adult.

BLITZ_Molloy wrote: »

Why doesn't the government make the colleges take an attendance, and then dock you per class not attended. That way they'd be rewarding the people who make a real go of it, and discouraging the lazy ones from taking the piss. You'll drag your hungover head in for 9pm if it's going to lose you 30 or 40 euro that day. Maybe they could introduce this scheme in 2nd year to give people a chance to go a bit mad initially, or to account for them hating the course they picked.

Simply being there does not mean anything. You can attend and learn nothing. Also, the reward for people who "make a real go of it" is that they have a better grade at the end of the day, which in turn gives them greater oppertunities when seeking employment.
Arbitary penalties based on the idea that the act of attending alone is worthwhile is a stupid idea.

brianthebard

thebigcheese22 wrote: »

3100 is a lot of money IMO, us students that go to college after Leaving Cert get a lot less than that. I dont see why this is tbh as mature students have probably worked and saved up a tonne of money while we're fairly poor.

What? no they don't, I'm not a mature student and get as much as the other person. If you are on a grant and getting less than that you either live too close to college or your parents earn too much to entitle you to the full grant.

phasers

Ah Jaysus I'm screwed so, I'm doing communication studies!

As I see it, Media is a necessary degree at the moment because so many people are at home unemployed and somebody needs to know how to produce a show. How do you decide what sector is "Necessary"? It's pretty subjective. I think dentistry and law are less necessary now than they used to be because nobody can afford them, should they pay more?

GAAman

RATM wrote: »

As another poster mentioned he got a grant of £2,600 back in the days of the IR£, at least pre-2002 and nowadays it is €3,100

Nah chief i am a student now, livin in derry got same amount as above it was 2,600 converted into sterling

Just remembered a lad from donegal (around 21) got near €6,500 same course, same year plus he gets money from the folks whereas im on my own :mad:

zonEEE

Correct me if im wrong but don't people who go to fas get 200 euro a week or something like that and thats the reason why they have to attend or get kicked out.